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Why did people support advanced techs in the Melee days, but praised Meta Knight's ban?

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JoshCube2

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Back in the Melee days, I constantly saw flame wars where the majority of people supported advanced techs because they thought it was "fair", and not "glitches". This was because of claims stating they were intentionally programmed into the game, and there were even claims that the creators of the game stated that they put the techs in.

The thing that really blows my mind is how everyone praised Meta Knight's ban, and this was an actual character programmed into the game. Advanced techs were used, people whined about it, and the majority of people voted him out. I am just going to say this is really bad contradiction in the Smash community, and an example of how popular demand causes the lesser group to be unfortunate. I really think it is poor sportsman ship for an entire community to claim that techs in Melee were OK, but then to go as far as to outright ban an entire character. This is one of the reasons why I stopped attending tournaments; other examples include favored rules like team attack on, no items, etc. Hopefully, this same behavior will not take place in SSB4 where all tournaments are designed for the majority vote. A person can try to convince me that "there's no skill with this/that in the match", and I have came up with countless points against this.
 

JoshCube2

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Shadow the Past

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I'm ignoring those two links since the author is trying to prove points by using opinions.
With that mindset, I'll now direct you to another two chapters from the book, about losing and being a "scrub".

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/more-on-losing.html

And before you continue to write off this man's input about competitive gaming as "just some random guy's opinion", feel free to read his "About Me" page and see how he's had more experience in competitive gaming than you or I probably ever will. http://www.sirlin.net/about/
 

JoshCube2

Banned via Warnings
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With that mindset, I'll now direct you to another two chapters from the book, about losing and being a "scrub".

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/more-on-losing.html

And before you continue to write off this man's input about competitive gaming as "just some random guy's opinion", feel free to read his "About Me" page and see how he's had more experience in competitive gaming than you or I probably ever will. http://www.sirlin.net/about/
Facts > Opinions

Try focusing more on the main topic.
 

Shadow the Past

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Except your entire claim in this topic is based on an opinion lol.

From what I can gather, you're saying we should've banned Melee's AT's like wavedashing and L-cancelling since the Brawl community was praised for banning MK. Problem is, banning those two different things is a completely separate challenge.

There are three, and only three, criteria for a ban: A ban must be enforceable, discrete, and warranted. This is a fact. There are no other criteria for determining if something should or should not be banned. If you think this is not a fact, please feel free to share what else you think could possibly fall under these criteria.

For enforcable, you must be able to ban something and be able to prevent a player from using/doing that thing, and punish those who do. Let's say we did ban wavedashing and L-cancelling and I'm at a tournament with that banned. Let's say I'm playing Fox and I'm about to land with an aerial, but I want to shield as soon as I get to the ground. What if I press the L button too soon, and "accidentally" L-cancel my landed aerial? Should I be punished? Do I have to forefit a stock? What if nobody notices that I L-cancelled it? What if my aerial ends one frame before I land, I press the L button and wind up wave-dashing on "accident"? Should this be punishable? What if I airdodge an attack, but land on a platform at the end of the airdodge for a "mini"-wavedash? Should that be punished? If something is to be banned from tournament play, it must be reasonably easy to identify when it happens or to prevent it from ever happening at all. How could we possibly enforce not letting players use wave-dashing/L-cancelling? I'm curious to see what argument you could possibly come up with for enforcing a ban on Melee's AT's. With banning Meta Knight, that's easy to enforce; you're just never allowed to pick the character. Easy peasy. It's a completely different type of ban which makes neither of them even slightly comparable. This, alone, makes banning Melee's AT's completely and utterly impossible, but we'll continue onto the next two topics for the sake of argument.

For discrete, it must be "completely defined". Again, for banning Meta Knight, this was easy. "This character cannot be used". Done. With banning wavedashing/L-cancelling, it's a lot harder to explicitly define what counts. Let's say wave-dashing at a 45 degree angle is banned. Well then, what's stopping players from wavedashing at a 40 degree angle (or whatever the next angle they can direct themselves)? When you try and ban something that has so much variety, it quickly becomes a metagame of using that which doesn't break the rule, or the "second-best" tactic. The Brawl community actually tried to do this while keeping Meta Knight legal by adding rules like the Ledge Grab Limit, where you can only grab the ledge 35 times, and the no-scrooging rule, where you can't go from one ledge to the other, under the stage, without touching the stage. This led to playeres using the "second-best" tactic of only grabbing the ledge 34 times, or going under the stage but landing on the Smashville platform instead of grabbing the ledge. It's a slippery slope, to say the least.

For warranted, it's simple: it has to be warranted in the first place. The tactic needs to be so overpowered that banning it will make the game ten times better. Thing is, 99% of players will agree that banning it does NOT make the game better. A small bug that gives a player a small advantage does not warrant a ban. Do you think Melee is somehow "unique" in the fact that it has bugs that give players a small advantage? You don't need to even look outside of Smash to see bugs being used to the players advantage: just see Brawl, with DACUSing and Glide Tossing and chain grabs and jab locks and light-stepping and dozens of other things. Should we ban all of those too? What about the Valle CC in Street Fighter Alpha 2, should Valle have been punished for using the Valle CC before anyone even knew what it was? If it looks like such an OP tactic, why did the match go to last game last hit? Because the tactic isn't "unbeatable", the opponent can use it himself, and the metagame didn't suddenly start revolving around the Valle CC. Banning Meta Knight, however, was warranted, to some degree. The metagame almost entirely revolves around him, and banning him results in a more character-diverse metagame, which many players consider better.

Your mind seems to be wrapped around this concept about how you think Melee revolves %100 around using wavedashing and L-cancelling, where the game is so so SO much more deeper than that (and this is coming from someone who hates Melee). Players have to adapt, they have to read their opponent, they have to master their tech skill, they have to know exactly what they can and cannot do in any situation in the game based on the physical rules of the game world. They shouldn't have to worry about some external punishment for "accidentally" wavedashing or something silly like that.
 

Smash G

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Except your entire claim in this topic is based on an opinion lol.
So is yours. :p

A ban must be enforceable, discrete, and warranted. This is a fact. There are no other criteria for determining if something should or should not be banned. If you think this is not a fact, please feel free to share what else you think could possibly fall under these criteria.
You don't seem to know what a fact is. That whole book is an opinion. Same with my words and yours. But arguing opinions is kind of useless.

I personally think another criteria that should be in there is "is this a bug/exploit/glitch and was it intended" and perhaps also "what does the developer think of it's use?" as things that should be taken into consideration.

Sakurai has suggested that they always knew of wavedashing but didn't predict correctly how it would be used which is probably one of the reasons they took it out. It always felt like an exploit to me so I was happy to see it go. It was clearly something that was not being used in the way predicted by developers. If Nintendo patched their games back then I'd bet the thing would have been patched out of Melee.
 
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Shadow the Past

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So is yours. :p
Essentially the point lol. Dismissing a comment because "it's an opinion" is not a fair argument, and pretty sure it's a logical fallacy (too lazy to check). Basically, both my argument and his argument are filled with opinions.


You don't seem to know what a fact is. That whole book is an opinion. Same with my words and yours. But arguing opinions is kind of useless.

I personally think another criteria that should be in there is "is this a bug/exploit/glitch and was it intended" and perhaps also "what does the developer think of it's use?" as things that should be taken into consideration.

Sakurai has suggested that they always knew of wavedashing but didn't predict correctly how it would be used which is probably one of the reasons they took it out. It always felt like an exploit to me so I was happy to see it go. It was clearly something that was not being used in the way predicted by developers. If Nintendo patched their games back then I'd bet the thing would have been patched out of Melee.
In a competitive environment, it is not our job to interpret the "will of the developer", it is our job to win the game. The moment you put some "moral code" in your head about what should or should not be used in a competitive environment because "the developer wouldn't want me to" is the moment you and your opponent are not playing the same game. He is playing to win, you are playing to adhere to your own made-up moral standards of how the game should or should not be played.
 

Smash G

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I could use that same argument and hack the game to win. I'm playing to win then too (Hacked a bit in WarCraft III when I was bored lol).

Playing to win is not the only thing that matters. I can make the same claim about someone else using made up moral standards when I'm using cheats. It's about where you set the line. My line is below wavedashing because I consider it an exploit and not honorable, basically cheating. So I didn't do it myself and did perfectly fine (though Jigglypuff doesn't really need to do it so it was easy). Didn't say much against it because it was so accepted by everything. Again, I was really happy to see it go. I'm glad Sakurai agreed that it was too much. :)
I really consider him getting rid of it the nail in the coffin too. It was clearly not working as intended. I don't think you need to make up your own moral code for something that is confirmed by the big boss as not intended either.


Whatever new "exploits" might come in this new game I hope they're patched. If not I'll just live with them as most people seem to be prefectly happy with playing the game in that fashion.
 
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Shadow the Past

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I could use that same argument and hack the game to win. I'm playing to win then too (Hacked a bit in WarCraft III when I was bored lol).

Playing to win is not the only thing that matters. I can make the same claim about someone else using made up moral standards when I'm using cheats. It's about where you set the line. My line is below wavedashing because I consider it an exploit and not honorable, basically cheating. So I didn't do it myself and did perfectly fine (though Jigglypuff doesn't really need to do it so it was easy). Didn't say much against it because it was so accepted by everything. Again, I was really happy to see it go. I'm glad Sakurai agreed that it was too much. :)
I really consider him getting rid of it the nail in the coffin too. It was clearly not working as intended. I don't think you need to make up your own moral code for something that is confirmed by the big boss as not intended either.
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/cheating.html

The bold sentence reinforces my statement about how wavedashing isn't some "OP mechanic that needs to be banned because it's impossible to play without it."

Again, the will of the developer is not important, or even relevant for that matter, in a competitive tournament environment when we are trying to find the best player. If you're truly play to win, you won't bog yourself down with such a crutch.
 
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Smash G

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http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/cheating.html

The bold sentence reinforces my statement about how wavedashing isn't some "OP mechanic that needs to be banned because it's impossible to play without it."

Again, the will of the developer is not important, or even relevant for that matter, in a competitive tournament environment when we are trying to find the best player. If you're truly play to win, you won't bog yourself down with such a crutch.
I disagree. I view it as basically cheating. If you don't bog yourself down by such a crutch as cheating you might as well hack the game for auto-999% damage hits.

Probably a massively unpopular opinion here but whatever.

And you keep quoting other people's stuff as if it means something to me. Unless it's a scientific study (lol) I really don't care. Using other people's opinions to support your opinion doesn't really do anything. We're just two guys with different opinions at the end of the day.


EDIT:
I'd easily compare it to the glitched shortcuts in Mario Kart 7. At this point everyone does it because you HAVE to (I'm unaware if they ever fixed it, I stopped playing). But it's still cheating. And yes, I use it too :p. I just know that what I'm doing is cheating.
 
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Fliperotchy

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I can't believe I'm reading this. The people who oppose Melee ATs are bad. Idk how else to say it. Put the ****ing time in to learn them, learn to win without them (it's possible, and proper who use them often lose because they SD etc), or play something else. Neither L-canceling and wave dashing aren't bugs or glitches. They're movement techniques. Do you know what a kara cancel is? A glitch. I'm seriously at a loss for words. People are spouting about opinions and basically having a pissing match. The explanation and use of the David Sirlin book was great, and the guy refuting is never going to amount to anything in life.

I'm sorry.
 

Smash G

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I can't believe I'm reading this. The people who oppose opposing Melee ATs are bad. Idk how else to say it. Put the ****ing time to learn to not use them, learn to win without them (as I have with Jigglypuff), or play something else. L-canceling and wave dashing are clearly not working as intended as confirmed by Sakurai and are exploits. They're movement techniques that you should never use. Do you know what kara cancel is? A glitch. I'm seriously at a loss for words. People are spouting about opinions and basically having a pissing match. The explanation and use of the David Sirlin book was pointless as it's just another opinion and not exactly science, and a guy refusing to acknowledge that is never going to amount to anything in life.

I'm sorry.

(see what I did there?)
 
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Shadow the Past

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I disagree. I view it as basically cheating. If you don't bog yourself down by such a crutch as cheating you might as well hack the game for auto-999% damage hits.

Probably a massively unpopular opinion here but whatever.

And you keep quoting other people's stuff as if it means something to me. Unless it's a scientific study (lol) I really don't care. Using other people's opinions to support your opinion doesn't really do anything. We're just two guys with different opinions at the end of the day.


EDIT:
I'd easily compare it to the glitched shortcuts in Mario Kart 7. At this point everyone does it because you HAVE to (I'm unaware if they ever fixed it, I stopped playing). But it's still cheating. And yes, I use it too :p. I just know that what I'm doing is cheating.
I cite David Sirlin because he has an understanding and means of explaining competitive gaming that I only have a fraction of.

The point of playing anything competitively, whether it's Smash, Magic, Chess, Scrabble, Poker, and so on, is to best your opponents through self-improvement. Hacking a game does not achieve this. And again, interpreting the will of the developer of the game is not important. The rules of the game have been clearly defined by the game engine as it was programmed, and we adhere to those rules regardless of what ruleset we come up with. The only way you can consider something in the game "cheating" is if it conflicts with your own moral standards of how the game should be played, which is subjective and not relevant in competitive gaming. (Anything outside of the game is a completely different subject matter).

You fundamentally lack an understanding of the nature of competitive gaming and it's clear you're too defensive about the topic for me to sway your opinion.
 

Fliperotchy

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I'm sorry. You want to talk "facts"? Why do they ban using the point of the elbow in UFC? because it's "game breaking". Knockouts can be acquired extremely easily and you could murder someone. It was a broken technique and ruined everything. So they banned it. No one can use it. Ever. And with good reason.

When you say you should ban ATs, you're like a boxing promoter who thinks the UFC isn't fighting and that ground game isn't true fighting. When in reality, boxing is ONE aspect of fighting. The UFC uses the same standards as EVERYTHING else to ban things, and that is NOT an opinion. The UFC allows every TECHNIQUE in fighting, but does not allow all maneuvers such as biting and eye gouging. If they banned Brazilian JuJitsu it would be like banning wave dashing. It's something that takes time to use, that you don't HAVE to use to win. But those who dedicate the time to learning it will have an advantage because of its usefulness. Again, not an opinion. When the Gracie family started using BJJ in the UFC, they dominated the fighting world without even punching someone. They used a specific technique that was within the bounds of the RULE set (aka they didn't bring in a baseball bat) and used it well. Since then, everyone in the UFC knows BJJ because it's amazingly useful and without it, you can lose fights you'd otherwise win. If they banned BJJ, the UFC would soon turn into boxing, but as we know, boxing is only one ASPECT of fighting. Fighting is all inclusive, but the UFC creates its own standards and decides what is fair. If you don't like it, start your own biting eye gouging elbowing fighting league.

Do you see where I'm going with this? These are REAL LIFE facts. We can and have drawn from these real life experiences to determine how to play our video games. And if you don't like it, start your own no wave dashing league. Thousands of people like Melee this way, and unlike in your magical made up land, people in the Melee community collectively decide what is fair and how things work.
 

Divine Fist

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I disagree. I view it as basically cheating. If you don't bog yourself down by such a crutch as cheating you might as well hack the game for auto-999% damage hits.
This is the funniest thing I've read all day. Advanced Techniques make the game harder and more profound, which is why you can't liken it to "auto-999% damage hits". Without Advanced Techniques, SSBM would not be relevant today. It would not have a massive competitive scene and an MLG partnership. Why? Because it would be slow, less exciting to watch, and too easy to master.

Call it what you want; cheating, exploiting—whatever. The fact is, it provided significantly more longevity for the game and caused it to be the most competitive title in the series thus far.
 

Fliperotchy

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This is the funniest thing I've read all day. Advanced Techniques make the game harder and more profound, which is why you can't liken it to "auto-999% damage hits". Without Advanced Techniques, SSBM would not be relevant today. It would not have a massive competitive scene and an MLG partnership. Why? Because it would be slow, less exciting to watch, and too easy to master.

Call it what you want; cheating, exploiting—whatever. The fact is, it provided significantly more longevity for the game and caused it to be the most competitive title in the series thus far.
And it doesn't blow like Brawl.
 

JoshCube2

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Except your entire claim in this topic is based on an opinion lol.

From what I can gather, you're saying we should've banned Melee's AT's like wavedashing and L-cancelling since the Brawl community was praised for banning MK. Problem is, banning those two different things is a completely separate challenge.

There are three, and only three, criteria for a ban: A ban must be enforceable, discrete, and warranted. This is a fact. There are no other criteria for determining if something should or should not be banned. If you think this is not a fact, please feel free to share what else you think could possibly fall under these criteria.

For enforcable, you must be able to ban something and be able to prevent a player from using/doing that thing, and punish those who do. Let's say we did ban wavedashing and L-cancelling and I'm at a tournament with that banned. Let's say I'm playing Fox and I'm about to land with an aerial, but I want to shield as soon as I get to the ground. What if I press the L button too soon, and "accidentally" L-cancel my landed aerial? Should I be punished? Do I have to forefit a stock? What if nobody notices that I L-cancelled it? What if my aerial ends one frame before I land, I press the L button and wind up wave-dashing on "accident"? Should this be punishable? What if I airdodge an attack, but land on a platform at the end of the airdodge for a "mini"-wavedash? Should that be punished? If something is to be banned from tournament play, it must be reasonably easy to identify when it happens or to prevent it from ever happening at all. How could we possibly enforce not letting players use wave-dashing/L-cancelling? I'm curious to see what argument you could possibly come up with for enforcing a ban on Melee's AT's. With banning Meta Knight, that's easy to enforce; you're just never allowed to pick the character. Easy peasy. It's a completely different type of ban which makes neither of them even slightly comparable. This, alone, makes banning Melee's AT's completely and utterly impossible, but we'll continue onto the next two topics for the sake of argument.

For discrete, it must be "completely defined". Again, for banning Meta Knight, this was easy. "This character cannot be used". Done. With banning wavedashing/L-cancelling, it's a lot harder to explicitly define what counts. Let's say wave-dashing at a 45 degree angle is banned. Well then, what's stopping players from wavedashing at a 40 degree angle (or whatever the next angle they can direct themselves)? When you try and ban something that has so much variety, it quickly becomes a metagame of using that which doesn't break the rule, or the "second-best" tactic. The Brawl community actually tried to do this while keeping Meta Knight legal by adding rules like the Ledge Grab Limit, where you can only grab the ledge 35 times, and the no-scrooging rule, where you can't go from one ledge to the other, under the stage, without touching the stage. This led to playeres using the "second-best" tactic of only grabbing the ledge 34 times, or going under the stage but landing on the Smashville platform instead of grabbing the ledge. It's a slippery slope, to say the least.

For warranted, it's simple: it has to be warranted in the first place. The tactic needs to be so overpowered that banning it will make the game ten times better. Thing is, 99% of players will agree that banning it does NOT make the game better. A small bug that gives a player a small advantage does not warrant a ban. Do you think Melee is somehow "unique" in the fact that it has bugs that give players a small advantage? You don't need to even look outside of Smash to see bugs being used to the players advantage: just see Brawl, with DACUSing and Glide Tossing and chain grabs and jab locks and light-stepping and dozens of other things. Should we ban all of those too? What about the Valle CC in Street Fighter Alpha 2, should Valle have been punished for using the Valle CC before anyone even knew what it was? If it looks like such an OP tactic, why did the match go to last game last hit? Because the tactic isn't "unbeatable", the opponent can use it himself, and the metagame didn't suddenly start revolving around the Valle CC. Banning Meta Knight, however, was warranted, to some degree. The metagame almost entirely revolves around him, and banning him results in a more character-diverse metagame, which many players consider better.

Your mind seems to be wrapped around this concept about how you think Melee revolves %100 around using wavedashing and L-cancelling, where the game is so so SO much more deeper than that (and this is coming from someone who hates Melee). Players have to adapt, they have to read their opponent, they have to master their tech skill, they have to know exactly what they can and cannot do in any situation in the game based on the physical rules of the game world. They shouldn't have to worry about some external punishment for "accidentally" wavedashing or something silly like that.
Again, read my first post. It focuses on the Smash community contradicting themselves when they support advanced techs that were programmed into the game, yet they praised Metaknight's ban, which was a character programmed into the game. This just goes to show you how idiotic competitive communities are. I would even bet money that any Japanese pro could wipe the floor with any American Metaknight pro.
 

Shadow the Past

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Again, read my first post. It focuses on the Smash community contradicting themselves when they support advanced techs that were programmed into the game, yet they praised Metaknight's ban, which was a character programmed into the game. This just goes to show you how idiotic competitive communities are. I would even bet money that any Japanese pro could wipe the floor with any American Metaknight pro.
You obviously didn't read everything that I posted lol.

From the second article I linked (notice the lack of serious opinions)
Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, or “Super Turbo,” is a wonderful example of bannings in fighting games. As of this writing, the arcade game is ten years old and still played in tournaments. In fact, there are one or two tournaments per week in this game in Tokyo alone. The game is quite mature, and there is a decade of data about the game’s balance.

Many versions of Street Fighter have "secret characters" that are only accessible through a code. Sometimes these characters are good; sometimes they're not. Occasionally, the secret characters are the best in the game as in the game Marvel vs. Capcom 1. Big deal. That's the way that game is. Live with it. But Super Turbo was the first version of Street Fighter to ever have a secret character: the untouchably good Akuma. Most characters in that game cannot beat Akuma. I don't mean it's a tough match--I mean they cannot ever, ever, ever, ever win. Akuma is "broken" in that his air fireball move is something the game simply wasn't designed to handle. He is not merely the best character in the game, but is at least ten times better than other characters. This case is so extreme that all top players in America immediately realized that all tournaments would be Akuma vs. Akuma only, and so the character was banned with basically no debate and has been ever since.
 
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Fliperotchy

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Again, read my first post. It focuses on the Smash community contradicting themselves when they support advanced techs that were programmed into the game, yet they praised Metaknight's ban, which was a character programmed into the game. This just goes to show you how idiotic competitive communities are. I would even bet money that any Japanese pro could wipe the floor with any American Metaknight pro.
There's nothing contradictory about it. They have separate reasoning and are even separate games. We're sorry you don't understand that and apparently intend not to understand. Since you like facts, I'll stick to them: you do not understand what you're talking about, and lack the necessary knowledge or capacity to have valid arguments. Not only are you being close minded, but you are embarrassing yourself. Facts.

You're even making blanket statements about competitive communities, even though you have no idea how that type of infrastructure functions. No matter how much you cry, you're not going to make a valid argument.
 

JoshCube2

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Essentially the point lol. Dismissing a comment because "it's an opinion" is not a fair argument, and pretty sure it's a logical fallacy (too lazy to check). Basically, both my argument and his argument are filled with opinions.



In a competitive environment, it is not our job to interpret the "will of the developer", it is our job to win the game. The moment you put some "moral code" in your head about what should or should not be used in a competitive environment because "the developer wouldn't want me to" is the moment you and your opponent are not playing the same game. He is playing to win, you are playing to adhere to your own made-up moral standards of how the game should or should not be played.
If I went around hacking every online competitive game which allowed me to win, I guarantee you I would be getting banned. If I hacked World of Warcraft, Diablo III Online, Ragnarok Online, Star Wars TOR, Final Fantasy Online, yes, it would happen. Hey, you said we had to play to win.

I can't believe I'm reading this. The people who oppose Melee ATs are bad. Idk how else to say it. Put the ****ing time in to learn them, learn to win without them (it's possible, and proper who use them often lose because they SD etc), or play something else. Neither L-canceling and wave dashing aren't bugs or glitches. They're movement techniques. Do you know what a kara cancel is? A glitch. I'm seriously at a loss for words. People are spouting about opinions and basically having a pissing match. The explanation and use of the David Sirlin book was great, and the guy refuting is never going to amount to anything in life.

I'm sorry.
Explain the opinions.
 
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Shadow the Past

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If I went around hacking every online competitive game which allowed me to win, I guarantee you I would be getting banned. If I hacked World of Warcraft, Diablo III Online, Ragnarok Online, Star Wars TOR, Final Fantasy Online, yes, it would happen. Hey, you said we had to play to win.
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/cheating.html

Again, failing to read everything I posted lol.
 

Divine Fist

Smash Rookie
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May 26, 2009
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Ontario
Again, read my first post. It focuses on the Smash community contradicting themselves when they support advanced techs that were programmed into the game, yet they praised Metaknight's ban, which was a character programmed into the game. This just goes to show you how idiotic competitive communities are. I would even bet money that any Japanese pro could wipe the floor with any American Metaknight pro.
Well, think about it this way. Some stages, despite being programmed into the game, are banned because they aren't competitively up to par. My frame of reference is SSBM, so bear with me. Brinstar is a map that rotates 360 degrees while you fight, so therefore, due to the hostile and absurd nature of the stage, it is banned.

Now, from what I understand based on a bit of research and experience, Metaknight is ranked #1 on the SSBB tier list because he doesn't really have any weaknesses. Since he's ridiculously overpowered, he would be an obvious first choice for anyone looking to compete, effectively rendering the competitive SSBB scene monotonous and repetitive. Who in their right mind would want to watch that many Metaknight dittos?

So with that said, in order to have some sort of balance, things that disturb the natural order of competitive play are selectively removed (like Metaknight and Brinstar, for example).
 

Fliperotchy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 29, 2006
Messages
266
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Oak Park, IL
If I went around hacking every online competitive game which allowed me to win, I guarantee you I would be getting banned. If I hacked World of Warcraft, Diablo III Online, Ragnarok Online, Star Wars TOR, Final Fantasy Online, yes, it would happen. Hey, you said we had to play to win.



Explain the opinions.
It's your uninformed opinion that it's contradictory for ATs not to be banned, but Metaknight to be banned. Unfortunately there's nothing contradictory about it. And that's a fact. Do you understand? Those two things do not overlap in any medium other than "things that can be banned". They are not the same thing. They are not even in the same game.

You're just a 2014 version of some little kid crying about items being banned.
 

JoshCube2

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Feb 17, 2005
Messages
75
I'm sorry. You want to talk "facts"? Why do they ban using the point of the elbow in UFC? because it's "game breaking". Knockouts can be acquired extremely easily and you could murder someone. It was a broken technique and ruined everything. So they banned it. No one can use it. Ever. And with good reason.

When you say you should ban ATs, you're like a boxing promoter who thinks the UFC isn't fighting and that ground game isn't true fighting. When in reality, boxing is ONE aspect of fighting. The UFC uses the same standards as EVERYTHING else to ban things, and that is NOT an opinion. The UFC allows every TECHNIQUE in fighting, but does not allow all maneuvers such as biting and eye gouging. If they banned Brazilian JuJitsu it would be like banning wave dashing. It's something that takes time to use, that you don't HAVE to use to win. But those who dedicate the time to learning it will have an advantage because of its usefulness. Again, not an opinion. When the Gracie family started using BJJ in the UFC, they dominated the fighting world without even punching someone. They used a specific technique that was within the bounds of the RULE set (aka they didn't bring in a baseball bat) and used it well. Since then, everyone in the UFC knows BJJ because it's amazingly useful and without it, you can lose fights you'd otherwise win. If they banned BJJ, the UFC would soon turn into boxing, but as we know, boxing is only one ASPECT of fighting. Fighting is all inclusive, but the UFC creates its own standards and decides what is fair. If you don't like it, start your own biting eye gouging elbowing fighting league.

Do you see where I'm going with this? These are REAL LIFE facts. We can and have drawn from these real life experiences to determine how to play our video games. And if you don't like it, start your own no wave dashing league. Thousands of people like Melee this way, and unlike in your magical made up land, people in the Melee community collectively decide what is fair and how things work.
I find it funny how you compared all this to real life UFC. Thanks for your false analogy fallacy.

There's nothing contradictory about it. They have separate reasoning and are even separate games. We're sorry you don't understand that and apparently intend not to understand. Since you like facts, I'll stick to them: you do not understand what you're talking about, and lack the necessary knowledge or capacity to have valid arguments. Not only are you being close minded, but you are embarrassing yourself. Facts.

You're even making blanket statements about competitive communities, even though you have no idea how that type of infrastructure functions. No matter how much you cry, you're not going to make a valid argument.
You claimed there's nothing contradictory about it, so care to elaborate? Saying that they are separate games isn't a good defense since the argument is based on popularity over two elements that were exactly the same.

And yes, I know about competitive communities. The Smash ones are filled with fascist anti-social idiotic bigots.
 
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Fliperotchy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
266
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Oak Park, IL
Thanks for your fallacy fallacy. Care to explain why you think this analogy doesn't apply to Smash, or any competitive game for that matter?
He has yet to do anything other than point out the "flaws" in our posts, rather than actually post anything himself. Although based on his replies I assume it's tough for him to create original thought. Or read, for that matter. He will continue to refute our posts rather than provide any sort of semi legitimate rebuttal using anything even remotely resembling evidence, or facts, as he's so interested in.
 

JoshCube2

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Feb 17, 2005
Messages
75
Thanks for proving my point and being 12. Enjoy being unintelligent for the remainder of your hopefully short years kiddo.
Another claim without an explanation. You are a funny man.


http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/cheating.html

Again, failing to read everything I posted lol.
Cheating is an opinion.

He has yet to do anything other than point out the "flaws" in our posts, rather than actually post anything himself. Although based on his replies I assume it's tough for him to create original thought. Or read, for that matter. He will continue to refute our posts rather than provide any sort of semi legitimate rebuttal using anything even remotely resembling evidence, or facts, as he's so interested in.
I already did.

A. An advanced tech is an element programmed into the game.

B. A character is an element programmed into the game.

A community rejecting B but accepting A is contradictory. Saying that they are two different games won't work also because advanced techs are used in both Melee and Brawl, so please come up with an argument against this.

And yes, I have shown original thought, and I cannot argue with someone that has the mind of a cave man. :)

Thanks for your fallacy fallacy. Care to explain why you think this analogy doesn't apply to Smash, or any competitive game for that matter?
It doesn't apply, because his argument consists of two different settings. He is comparing my argument of a community contradicting themselves to illegal moves in UFC.
 
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Fliperotchy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 29, 2006
Messages
266
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Oak Park, IL
Wait until I get home from work. Blowing you up from my phone will take too long.

Also, you're comparing a ****ing character to functions within the game's engine. Please take time to tell me how those things are the same. I beg you. I'll give you like 2 hours to think of something intelligent. The UFC draws just as many parallels to Melee as ATs to Metaknight.
 
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Shadow the Past

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 2, 2012
Messages
735
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Portsmouth, OH
3DS FC
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Cheating is an opinion.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand that's all folks

Gunna have to sigquote this

I've said everything I need to say, beyond this I'll just be repeating myself. You obviously have no intention of defending your own points or sticking to a single argument until you see it through, so peace.
 
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JoshCube2

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Feb 17, 2005
Messages
75
Well, think about it this way. Some stages, despite being programmed into the game, are banned because they aren't competitively up to par. My frame of reference is SSBM, so bear with me. Brinstar is a map that rotates 360 degrees while you fight, so therefore, due to the hostile and absurd nature of the stage, it is banned.

Now, from what I understand based on a bit of research and experience, Metaknight is ranked #1 on the SSBB tier list because he doesn't really have any weaknesses. Since he's ridiculously overpowered, he would be an obvious first choice for anyone looking to compete, effectively rendering the competitive SSBB scene monotonous and repetitive. Who in their right mind would want to watch that many Metaknight dittos?

So with that said, in order to have some sort of balance, things that disturb the natural order of competitive play are selectively removed (like Metaknight and Brinstar, for example).
Banning a character from tournaments is for the weak. Now I know why Japanese smashers are barely attending overseas tournaments any more, and it's because American smashers think Metaknight pros are invincible. When I play against people, I turn on items, all stages, and allow all characters. Whenever a bomb dropped on me, I dealt with it; whenever a stage made it hard to kill players, I dealt with it; and whenever I played against a Metaknight player; I dealt with it. Problem is that people are too lazy to try and figure out techniques to tackle against Metaknight players, so they decide to ban the entire character. I once saw a match where Ken was playing against PC Chris in a tournament with items turned on, and from what I saw, it was no scrub fight. I noticed that throwing some items was better technique than using them, and a player should run when another player grabs the smash ball. Just my experience towards your post.

Wait until I get home from work. Blowing you up from my phone will take too long.

Also, you're comparing a ****ing character to functions within the game's engine. Please take time to tell me how those things are the same. I beg you. I'll give you like 2 hours to think of something intelligent. The UFC draws just as many parallels to Melee as ATs to Metaknight.
They are the same because they're both elements programmed into the game. I would like you to explain to me how a community banning an entire character vs. a community allowing advanced techs is different. The character even allows the player to use advanced techs.
 
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Fliperotchy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 29, 2006
Messages
266
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Oak Park, IL
Banning a character from tournaments is for the weak. Now I know why Japanese smashers are barely attending overseas tournaments any more, and it's because American smashers think Metaknight pros are invincible. When I play against people, I turn on items, all stages, and allow all characters. Whenever a bomb dropped on me, I dealt with it; whenever a stage made it hard to kill players, I dealt with it; and whenever I played against a Metaknight player; I dealt with it. Problem is that people are too lazy to try and figure out techniques to tackle against Metaknight players, so they decide to ban the entire character. I once saw a match where Ken was playing against PC Chris in a tournament with items turned on, and from what I saw, it was no scrub fight. I noticed that throwing some items was better technique than using them, and a player should run when another player grabs the smash ball. Just my experience towards your post.
I think you just lack the will to win. You don't know enough about competitive anything to even speak out against it. I could make analogies all night about chess, fighting, Street Fighter, but it won't matter. You're a purist who has no intention of listening to anyone else. In fact, you are so close minded that I'm surprised you even live in a democratic society. Banning characters is for the weak? Opinion. People are too lazy to seek out counter play? Opinion. In fact that's just a flat out lie. Japanese players are apparently the only thing that matters to you, yet their relevancy has never been lower. Fact. People banned MK because they're lazy? False. Your entire post is just opinionated and uninformed nonsense. Your arguments are solely based on opinion and your opinion could not be any less relevant seeing as you have no idea what you're talking about.
 
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JoshCube2

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Feb 17, 2005
Messages
75
I think you just lack the will to win. You don't know enough about competitive anything to even speak out against it. I could make analogies all night about chess, fighting, Street Fighter, but it won't matter. You're a purist who has no intention of listening to anyone else. In fact, you are so close minded that I'm surprised you even live in a democratic society. Banning characters is for the weak? Opinion. People are too lazy to seek out counter play? Opinion. In fact that's just a flat out lie. Japanese players are apparently the only thing that matters to you, yet their relevancy has never been lower. Fact. People banned MK because they're lazy? False. Your entire post is just opinionated and uninformed nonsense. Your arguments are solely based on opinion and your opinion could not be any less relevant seeing as you have no idea what you're talking about.
In that previous post, I did not intend to make a claim; I was sharing my experience to the poster. And you still did not answer to my last post.
 
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JoshCube2

Banned via Warnings
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Feb 17, 2005
Messages
75
Your opinion doesn't matter. Sorry. You want facts, remember?

And which post, sire?
"Explain to me how a community banning an entire character vs. a community allowing advanced techs is different. The character even allows the player to use advanced techs."
 
Joined
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19,345
"Why did people support advanced techs in the Melee days, but praised Meta Knight's ban?"

In what ways may you be able to provide me with factual data that clearly embodies that people praised melee advance techs and praised Meta Knights ban? I am lead to believe that one cannot generate such evidence. Unless someone has done some rigorous statistics with the sampling of smashers opinions from a variety of locations around the globe. If we assume this to be true (that one there is no good evidence), then the very question you have asked is subjective and I believe you will never get a satisfactory answer.

In this aspect, you might be "making a mountain out of a mole hill". In spirit of the topic, Melee advance techs are fun to play with and I would be sad if enough people did not like to use them as well. Plus, the Meta Knight ban movement was an unfortunate idea that came into many peoples minds, in my opinion. Its quite enjoyable to be challenged and to surmount a challenge. Meta Knight just happens to be the best character for one to try to overcome in Brawl.
 
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Divine Fist

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 26, 2009
Messages
18
Location
Ontario
Banning a character from tournaments is for the weak. Now I know why Japanese smashers are barely attending overseas tournaments any more, and it's because American smashers think Metaknight pros are invincible. When I play against people, I turn on items, all stages, and allow all characters. Whenever a bomb dropped on me, I dealt with it; whenever a stage made it hard to kill players, I dealt with it; and whenever I played against a Metaknight player; I dealt with it. Problem is that people are too lazy to try and figure out techniques to tackle against Metaknight players, so they decide to ban the entire character. I once saw a match where Ken was playing against PC Chris in a tournament with items turned on, and from what I saw, it was no scrub fight. I noticed that throwing some items was better technique than using them, and a player should run when another player grabs the smash ball. Just my experience towards your post.

They are the same because they're both elements programmed into the game. I would like you to explain to me how a community banning an entire character vs. a community allowing advanced techs is different. The character even allows the player to use advanced techs.
I'm having trouble understanding your logic. On one hand, players are too lazy to work around Metaknight, a grossly overpowered character. On the other hand, players advocate to learn advanced techniques—many of which take hundreds of hours of practice to master and implement properly—the polar opposite of laziness. Make up your mind about what you think of the community.

You don't seem to understand the difference between competitive and casual play. In casual play, it's fine to turn on all stages, all items, and in this case, all characters. But in competitive gaming, the playing field needs to be as level as possible. Such is the case with real sports, too.

The games where PC Chris and Ken are using items on banned stages are from 2006 or earlier when the competitive Melee community was still feeling out what was appropriate competitively. Nowadays there are no such balance issues, and you certainly won't see items in tournaments.

You are entitled to your opinion, but this whole thread seems like a hissy-fit because you don't get to play your favorite overpowered character. Prove me wrong.
 

Dr. Krumm

Smash Apprentice
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Classified.
Why are people even comparing movement options from Melee to the Meta Knight ban in Brawl? Isn't this really easy to sum up in 2 sentences?

Meta Knight breaks game.

Wave Dashing does not break game.
 

4IRE (For Aiur)

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 21, 2005
Messages
67
Location
Saint Paul, MN
Your question calls for an opinion answer. The relevant parts are in bold red.

"Back in the Melee days, I constantly saw flame wars where the majority of people supported advanced techs because they thought it was "fair", and not "glitches". This was because of claims stating they were intentionally programmed into the game, and there were even claims that the creators of the game stated that they put the techs in.

The thing that really blows my mind is how everyone praised Meta Knight's ban, and this was an actual character programmed into the game. Advanced techs were used, people whined about it, and the majority of people voted him out. I am just going to say this is really bad contradiction in the Smash community, and an example of how popular demand causes the lesser group to be unfortunate. I really think it is poor sportsman ship for an entire community to claim that techs in Melee were OK, but then to go as far as to outright ban an entire character."

So the answer to the question/thread title: "Why did people support [ATs] but praise[] meta-knights ban?" is simply because they did; the community felt this way.

Your analysis (in green) is incomplete. Yes, some people used these arguments to support allowing ATs to be used in tournament play. However, there were many other reasons including: increasing the skill gap, making the game more exciting to watch, expanding the number of usable moves, deepening the meta, and because people WANTED to use them. On the other hand, having a single dominant character makes the game (albeit somewhat subjectively) less exciting to watch and to play because the majority of the community only uses the least-punishable moves of one character in a roster of many. Basically, people WANTED to ban him.

Now, if you wish to artificially limit the discussion to your point (in yellow) that the community has been hypocritical by utilizing the argument: "because the developers made it that way" to support ATs but not to keep MK or items or certain stages or whatever it is that you liked in the game that the competitive community removed, then YOU ARE CORRECT AS FAR AS THAT GOES; nobody can prove that "because it was in the game" was NOT used as support for keeping ATs or dismissed while banning MK. However, you have won your argument by artificially constraining the debate and you have not learned the answer to your question.

TL;DR

The fact that ATs were intentionally programmed into the game was never THE reason the melee community supported them, it was merely A reason. You have artificially constrained the debate so that you can win and have thereby missed the point: the reason people supported ATs and not MK is because they LIKED one and not the other. The competitive community had to make changes to make the game "competitive" (i.e. skill-dependent, addictive, and watchable). If you don't like these restrictions, play with friends exclusively or occasionally.
 
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