Why Greninja getting into Smash Bros makes sense (whether you like it or not)

[Swamp Sensei]

No insult to Greninja's fans but he was not an obvious character.

Some even call him a WTF (not a bad thing). Certainly he was shocking but that makes you wonder...

Why is he in?

Do you think GameFreak and their advertising is the main reason he's in or Sakurai planning him from the start?

 

[Banjodorf]

No insult to Greninja's fans but he was not an obvious character.

Some even call him a WTF (not a bad thing). Certainly he was shocking but that makes you wonder...

Why is he in?

Do you think GameFreak and their advertising is the main reason he's in or Sakurai planning him from the start?

Y'know, my actual thought here is that Sakurai saw Greninja and thought "You know, that one would just be perfect for Smash." and the fact that he was an incredibly popular starter, especially for a brand new gen, just helped it along. It may not've been an obvious Smash choice. (I mean I was thinking about it sometimes, and going "Y'know, that would be so cool, but impossible..."

I think Sakurai just wanted to make a badass shurikens and katanas character, and Greninja was an amazing mold for it. (I do weep for Takamaru though. Although Greninja does do it with a bit more watery flair.)

 

[AEMehr]

It's the only thing that makes sense.
There's no way he could have got in any other way, Sakurai even said that they weren't able to do any Market Research for the new games so their main resources were the anime and movies.

Gamefreak had to push this on him. Now I'm not complaining but, when I look at the other characters on the roster and then see Greninja, he doesn't exactly scream "Nintendo All-Star!" you know?

 

[The Drilling Juggernaut]

I look at it like this: They added the most popular starter ever (Charizard) and added the most popular current gen starter (Greninja). I think he looks fun, so I'm not upset by it. Though if I could chose I would pick Hawlucha. He could have played like a tiny Haggar. I really want a grapple heavy character in Smash, and Hawlucha would have given one a unique flair.

But you can't really hate something with tongue scarf.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Greninja's inclusion doesn't make me mad, though it was definitely shocking and feels rather unwarranted, if I'm completely honest. In style of Pichu being intended for Melee only on part of its popularity within Generation II (and Generation II only), I could very well see Greninja being dropped out in the distant, far-off next Smash Bros. to follow these two games. Current popularity seems to be its main appeal right now. Unless its popularity skyrockets to that of Lucario's and stays consistently that way, I could definitely see its spot being fought over by whatever "Generational Mascot" Generation VII or VIII gives us.

Of course people will like it--people already do. It's a question of how genuine that likeness will remain over the years.

 

[Arcanir]

While he is left field, I highly doubt GF came in and said: "Hey, you have to use Greninja! No excuses, just do it!" I think Sakurai has more control over the characters he chooses then that.

I think the more likely scenario is the one Banjodorf put forth, Sakurai came in for the characters he wanted, some other choices for XY were presented, and he latched onto Greninja as he liked what the character could do. GF may've gave him as one suggestion, but ultimately Sakurai was the one who went with it.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Dudes, Greninja is really popular.

Smash 4 will likely help cement this in a very Lucario/Zard-like way.

Now all we need is Blaziken. Or Sceptile.

 

[ProfPeanut]

As someone who's mostly stayed out of riding the hype trains these days, I don't have much experience with how the arguments go these days. I gave up trying to predict Sakurai's patterns long ago, figuring that any theorycrafting was useless in actually deciding who'd get programmed a playable character slot in Smash Bros. So I mostly just looked for the common reasons for the latest additions: people wanted Mega Man, Wii Fit was really important, Super Mario Galaxy is a landmark game, etc.

Greninja, however, doesn't really have these justifications. I can see that:

1. Gen 6 is really influential, as well as being an important new step in the Pokemon franchise (although I'd say Gen 5 was equally as important)
2. The starters this time are pretty cool, and they're also the most well-know Pokemon of any generation aside from the cover legendaries.
3. Greninja offers a unique playstyle (but so do a lot of Pokemon...)
4. Greninja is fairly popular

My problem is that his fellow starters, Chesnaught and Delphox, also fall under these criteria. They also belong to Gen 6, they each have their respective fanbases, and they would've made for cool playable characters too. But none of them, as far as I've seen, have the universal appeal that Charizard has to justify his inclusion over his fellow starters. None of them seem to me to have a better reason than the other two for getting in solo.

So basically, I can't help but feel that Greninja just won a three-sided die roll for playable-status, and will likely be the first on the chopping block if SSB5 ever comes around in the next generation. I would, however, appreciate being proven rationally wrong on the matter.

 

[Louie G.]

I'm thinking that it was Gamefreak who recommended Greninja.
Which makes me worry for Mewtwo. Hopefully Sakurai decides to add Mewtwo anyway.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

I can think of three reasons why Greninja is in:

1) Sales Rep for Pokemon X and Y (marketed for increasing sales).

2) Sakurai saw a lot of potential in his moveset being original and fun.

3) He is a ninja.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I think part of the reason for Greninja's inclusion is because of the fact that Ash owns a Froakie in the TV series.

 

[Banjodorf]

I just REALLY think people aren't giving Sakurai enough credit for this one.

I don't think he put in Greninja just because Gamefreak asked him. The character looks extremely well thought out, and clearly was something he was interested in

 

[Louie G.]

I think part of the reason for Greninja's inclusion is because of the fact that Ash owns a Froakie in the TV series.

I don't know if this matters, but the Battle Theme played in the trailer had a TON of anime influence.
So MAYBE this supports the anime theory?
It's a freaking great remix either way.

 

[Cpt.]

I'm pretty sure he was chosen because he was the coolest of the three. All of them could have had a unique enough playstyle.

 

[Scicky]

Uh, Greninja is by far the most popular of the new starters from what I've seen. Not to mention the most suited to smash. Pretty sure Ash is gonna get one in the anime as well, he was likely put in on behalf of gamefreak.

 

[ToothiestAura]

Ash got a Froakie. So Greninja will be getting a lot of future attention, and this just helps.

So basically, I can't help but feel that Greninja just won a three-sided die roll for playable-status, and will likely be the first on the chopping block if SSB5 ever comes around in the next generation. I would, however, appreciate being proven rationally wrong on the matter.

Lucario. Bam. There you go.

 

[Oniric Spriter]

Knowing Lucario in SSB4, I really doubt Greninja will be cut for SSB5. They're both badass Pokémon, they'll never go.

 

[praline]

So basically, I can't help but feel that Greninja just won a three-sided die roll for playable-status, and will likely be the first on the chopping block if SSB5 ever comes around in the next generation. I would, however, appreciate being proven rationally wrong on the matter.

SSB5 is coming out the end of this year. He's in that one too.

 

[smashingDoug]

Knowing Lucario in SSB4, I really doubt Greninja will be cut for SSB5. They're both badass Pokémon, they'll never go.

you don't feel like he's a water down version (get it water down hahahaha) of Lucario

 

[The Real Gamer]

Greninja is easily the most popular starter out of the 3 (if not the most popular Gen 6 Pokemon period), and this is coming from someone who likes Delphox and Chesnaught more.

 

[Arcadenik]

Same here... I preferred Delphox and Chesnaught more because I like their designs... I never liked Greninja's design... but apparently it is more popular because it is a ninja.

But I am fine with Greninja's inclusion simply because it means that we are definitely not getting the boring conservative "Brawl Pokemon + Mewtwo" roster.

 

[Banjodorf]

Knowing Lucario in SSB4, I really doubt Greninja will be cut for SSB5. They're both badass Pokémon, they'll never go.

Yeah. I honestly feel like he's shaping up to be exactly like Lucario in this case, which makes me very happy, because he's such a cool new Pokemon, and deserves the spotlight every bit as much as Lucario does.

In fact, so far, the Pokemon roster is pretty amazing.

 

[Forcerounds]

Well, if Sakurai wanted the Pokemon Trainer concept to remain, you could bet that SSB4 would have had a Kalos Trainer with the three starters, which I think are all pretty swell. Greninja is just really "cool," and "cool" is something The Pokemon Company really cares about.

The Pokemon Company also really cares about "cute," and could have suggested Sylveon instead (using flesh ribbons to fill the void Ivysaur leaves behind), but Pikachu and presumably Jigglypuff are cute enough. Three cute pokemon characters probably wouldn't be appropriate for Smash anyway.

 

[Banjodorf]

Well, if Sakurai wanted the Pokemon Trainer concept to remain, you could bet that SSB4 would have had a Kalos Trainer with the three starters, which I think are all pretty swell. Greninja is just really "cool," and "cool" is something The Pokemon Company really cares about.

The Pokemon Company also really cares about "cute," and could have suggested Sylveon instead (using flesh ribbons to fill the void Ivysaur leaves behind), but Pikachu and presumably Jigglypuff are cute enough. Three cute pokemon characters probably wouldn't be appropriate for Smash anyway.

I'm still holding out for 6 Pokemon characters, just because I can't see the point in not having Mewtwo. However, I do think you're right in Jiggs being there to *sort of* balance the badass and cute levels of the Pokemon newcomers, although either way its 3-2 or 4-2 badass. That seems like a stupid scale anyway.

I'm certainly glad the choice was Greninja, despite Sylveon ALSO being one of my new favorites.

 

[Typs]

Ok, i'm not going to beat around the bush, the fact that Greninja is a playable character is, in my opinion, the stupidest thing I have seen in this game so far (and i hope it will stay that way).
To me, Greninja is just a face in a crowd of 718 people that doesn't stand out at all. He got in because nintendo wanted to advertise Gen 6 and took the "coolest" looking pokemon, and even if he is better than average he doesn't stand out as much as Lucario, who was way more popular before brawl than Greninja was 2 days ago.
Speaking of popularity, Greninja wasn't even rated once in the "Rate their chances" thread, while Zoroark was rated twice. His support thread (created in november) barely reached the second page before his anouncement, with the last post dating back to the end of january, Hawlucha (another Gen 6 pokemon) did better than that.

All i want to say is that i don't feel like Greninja deserve to be playable, his design isn't that interresting, his role in pokemon X/Y isn't special, and he isn't popular enough to get in.
However, i know some people are happy with his inclusion, so i would like to see how much, and, most important, why.
(i think i made some mistake with my english, sorry about that.)

 

[KhanYe]

Greninja definitely deserved it. We needed a sixth gen rep, and Greninja is the character that fits the mold of a Smash Bros character the best in terms of popularity (most popular starter in 6th gen) and his design (badass water ninja with tongue scarf).

That being said, I'm still all aboard the Hawlucha for Smash 4 bandwagon.

 

[Banjodorf]

It's difficult to compare something like Zoroark to Greninja, especially on SWF.

We all sort of viewed Zoroark as the mascot of Gen 5, so it's very easy to see why we'd build it up that way. However, as a character, he never had the same popularity as someone like Lucario. However, Greninja is quickly becoming that Pokemon (the Lucario) for Gen 6. Honestly, he's easily the most popular of the 3 starters, and has a great deal of popularity as a Pokemon. He's like Charizard but new. And a frog.

I wish people would stop saying the only reason he got in was because Gamefreak pushed. Not only is this unverifiable, but it doesn't give Sakurai enough credit as lead developer to make his own decisions. He's trying to make a game where every character is unique and there's a massive, diverse roster. Greninja fills a character archetype that hadn't quite been explored yet, represents the newest series Pokemon has to offer in contrast to old favorites like Pika and Zard, and from a fighting game standpoint, has the potential to look really amazing with his water-based blades and other moves.

Just remember that this isn't the only Smash board, and that we tend to have opinions about characters that centralize around very specific ideas. We also tend to tunnel vision, which might explain why we've literally never seen any announcement coming for this game but Mega Man. (And Mac, but no one expected him to be announced the day he was.)

Greninja is easily the most popular Pokemon of the new gen, and likely blows pokemon like Zoroark out of the water, so I'm honestly not surprised upon further reflection to see him, and I sure hope he sticks around like Charizard and Lucario.

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

Yes, if only because he's the most deserving sixth-gen Pokemon, and the newest gen has always been represented in Smash. Also, he's the first dedicated water fighter, we've had a ton of fire characters and the Ice Climbers, but never a water fighter. Though I guess Starfy could have fit that bill.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

There's no options for saying yes or no and not explaining it.

Of all the Gen 6 Pokemon he deserved it but I still want the Kalos trainer with all 3 final forms.

 

[Starbound]

The thing with Greninja is that he's only six months old, and hasn't had enough time to gather notoriety. He's definitely one of the most popular 6th gen Pokemon and I hope GameFreak uses him a lot.

 

[SmashBro99]

I wanted him in, but didn't think he had a shot tbh, being so new still.

I'm pumped he made it!

 

[Mysteltainn]

I think he just deserved it in general. He is essentially the Lucario of Generation 6 by the looks of it, and keep in mind that he has gained that kind of popularity in a mere six months. He is also by far unique enough to make a moveset out of easily, which I see they have done. Additionally, although I found Delphox pretty badass looking, Greninja fits that "nimble and slick fighter" niche, being a ninja and part Dark type.

 

[Vann Accessible]

I fully expected a gen 6 mon to be playable, and I figured it'd be between Greninja and Hawlucha.

I'm quite pleased. He's much cooler than Squirtle.

 

[Typs]

It's difficult to compare something like Zoroark to Greninja, especially on SWF.

We all sort of viewed Zoroark as the mascot of Gen 5, so it's very easy to see why we'd build it up that way. However, as a character, he never had the same popularity as someone like Lucario. However, Greninja is quickly becoming that Pokemon (the Lucario) for Gen 6. Honestly, he's easily the most popular of the 3 starters, and has a great deal of popularity as a Pokemon. He's like Charizard but new. And a frog.

I think he just deserved it in general. He is essentially the Lucario of Generation 6 by the looks of it, and keep in mind that he has gained that kind of popularity in a mere six months. He is also by far unique enough to make a moveset out of easily, which I see they have done. Additionally, although I found Delphox pretty badass looking, Greninja fits that "nimble and slick fighter" niche, being a ninja and part Dark type.

See, this where i think the problem is. I might be wrong, but i feel like Hawlucha was going to be the Gen 6 pokemon (not that i particularly like him).
Between pokemon X/Y and the direct i haven't seen anyone, and i mean anyone, say that Greninja is the best pokemon of Gen 6.

I'm going to sound like a jerk, and i swear, I SWEAR that's not what i want, but here it goes anyway:
The "popularity" of Greninja isn't real, or at least it's not as big as what people say, it was made up by those who jumped in the band-wagon after his reveal to justify his inclusion in the roster.

Now that i've said that, i want to make something clear: I know i can be wrong, If there some evidence that he was "THE gen 6 pokemon" before the direct, i will go back on what i just said.

 

[Banjodorf]

See, this where i think the problem is.I might be wrong, but i feel like Hawlucha was going to be the Gen 6 pokemon (not that i particularly like him).
Between pokemon X/Y i haven't seen anyone, and i mean anyone, say that Greninja is the best pokemon of Gen 6.

I'm going to sound like a jerk, and i swear, I SWEAR that's not what i want, but here it goes anyway:
The "popularity" of Greninja isn't real, or at least it's not as big as what people say, it was made up by those who jumped in the band-wagon after his reveal to justify his inclusion in the roster.

Now that i've said that, i want to make something clear: I know i can be wrong, If there some evidence that he was "THE gen 6 pokemon" before the direct, i will go back on what i just said.

I really think you're overreacting. If I had to pick a most popular Gen 6 Pokemon before the announcement, it would certainly have been Greninja. I don't know why people thought Hawlucha had the chance he did, but he's literally just a new bipedal Pokemon, with no focus on him, and a fanbase that sprouted just because he's cool.

That can be said about Greninja, but Greninja's definitely the most popular starter from a very successful gen even for Pokemon standards, and has quite a few fans. Aside from that, I maintain that Sakurai initially picked him because of the archetype and moveset he could represent, and secondarily because he was pretty cool.

Either way, if he wasn't the Gen 6 Lucario before, he certainly is now.

 

[Oz37]

*sigh* I get really tired of hearing (or reading, I should say) the word "deserving." It's such a subjective term and concept that I really have a hard time seeing any realistic justification for it being a part of character discussion.

That said, here's what I would (subjectively) say makes up why Greninja can indeed be called "deserving":

- He's a Starter Pokémon, thus making him one of the frontrunners of the series.
- He's featured in the most current generation of the games, which has become one of the most popular gens in a very short time.
- His design is unique and easily translatable into a fighting game.
- He will probably be featured in the anime, as Ash has a Froakie now and it feels like the one that's going to evolve all the way.

All in all, it doesn't matter if we deem him deserving or not. The developers (Sakurai, particularly) decided to make him a part of the roster, so obviously Greninja is deserving in their eyes. Period. End of story.

 

[Oniric Spriter]

you don't feel like he's a water down version (get it water down hahahaha) of Lucario

Why should I? He's a sick as hell water-ninja pokémon.
Lucario is an aura pokémon who resembles a japanese martial artist.

They look nothing alike.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

What fan-base have you been following? Everybody and their 12-year old cousin has been treating Greninja like the second coming of Charizard.

(Which, incidentally, also happened in Gen 6. X and Y was a good generation. But I digress.)

ChesPhox are way less popular, take it from a die-hard Phox fan. The 'ninja is cool, popular, recent, relevant and earned his spot more than Jigglysmore ever did.

 

[Typs]

I really think you're overreacting.

yay, sorry about that, i get really passionate sometime.

If I had to pick a most popular Gen 6 Pokemon before the announcement, it would certainly have been Greninja. I don't know why people thought Hawlucha had the chance he did, but he's literally just a new bipedal Pokemon, with no focus on him, and a fanbase that sprouted just because he's cool.

That can be said about Greninja, but Greninja's definitely the most popular starter from a very successful gen even for Pokemon standards, and has quite a few fans. Aside from that, I maintain that Sakurai initially picked him because of the archetype and moveset he could represent, and secondarily because he was pretty cool.

And i don't feel like that justify his inclusion, smash is a crossover of everything that's great in nintendo's games, if all gen 6 has to offer is a kinda popular 6 month old pokemon that can do "cool ninja stuff", maybe we shouldn't get a character to represent it.

Either way, if he wasn't the Gen 6 Lucario before, he certainly is now.

And that, in my opinion,is just sad, he is now popular not because he is well designed (i don't think he is), but because he is "that pokemon who got in smash".

All in all, it doesn't matter if we deem him deserving or not. The developers (Sakurai, particularly) decided to make him a part of the roster, so obviously Greninja is deserving in their eyes. Period. End of story.

I strongly disagree with this mindset, Sakurai can make mistake, if he put a character that doesn't deserve it AT ALL we shouldn't just accept it.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

See, this where i think the problem is. I might be wrong, but i feel like Hawlucha was going to be the Gen 6 pokemon (not that i particularly like him).
Between pokemon X/Y and the direct i haven't seen anyone, and i mean anyone, say that Greninja is the best pokemon of Gen 6.

Between Smogon, Pokemon Online, and the secret underground black market for Protean Froakies, you had to be living under a freaking rock to think the fanbase wasn't losing their collective **** over Greninja. The people love him.