Marthmario
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2013
- Messages
- 1,297
Every where I go, I keep hearing murmurs of Bowser being a really bad character in PM, is this true?
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This^ Basically.because he gets combo'd extremely badly, has poor mixups from dash dancing, and can be camped/baited out pretty easily.
Yes, people can play Bowser and be really good at the game or "overcome" his weaknesses. However, they can take that same amount of skill and use it to highlight a better character's strengths and worry about less weaknesses to overcome. Just because someone can play him at that kind of a level doesn't make him any easier to play as. It's hard as balls!Not enough people take the time to play him and learn to overcome his weaknesses. He has just a little too many bad matchups and he can be camped out easy.
LMAO. Recovery is great...? His recovery is balanced maybe, compared to stupid **** like Diddy Kong's. I wouldn't have a problem with it if everyone else had at least a similarly bad recovery. He doesn't live forever unless people let you back on stage. You can get knocked around until 180% just fine, but that doesn't mean you're getting back on the ledge. Yes, he can do some ****ed up **** with his quake boxes and other tools that people don't use enough....but other characters can do more. Because speed/better frame data/projectiles.Don't listen to what people have to say about him. His recovery is great, he lives forever and he can do some f*cked up **** even in top level gameplay.
No, the reason he's bad is because he has poor frame data, a "meh" dash speed and isn't great at approaching because of this. The armored attacks, with the exception of maybe Nair for defense, are slow and punishable. They're great defenses, and F-smash is still a beautiful diamond in the rough(It punishes perfect spacing, which is great!). The fact remains, that top-level players that know the MU can give Bowser a really ****ty time and run circles around him. The reason we focus on the bad attributes, is because those same attributes are what make Bowser fairly easy to beat when you know what you're doing.The only reason why he is bad is because people don't play him and are too stuck on wishing certain attributes are better when they should really be focusing on exploiting his advantageous attributes he gained from PM.
What do you understand about him? Have you topped big P:M tournaments with him? How many?I can't necessarily comment on his spot in the tier list but most do not understand enough and would just rather generalize and throw em in the low tiers
Pretty sure against CC marth can eitherI honestly think that Bowser is good and very underrated. If you can just predict the opponent than you can do serious damage. A lot of matchups that seem difficult for Bowser can be dealt with. I used to think that the Lucario, Marth, and Lucas matchups were almost impossible for Bowser, but one I began to abuse crouch-cancelling, I did much better. The Lucario matchup may seem to be in Lucario's favor, but once Lucario is offstage, the tables are turned and he can easily be edgeguarded by soo many of Bowser's attacks. I honestly think that the Marth matchup is definitely in Bowser's favor. Crouch-cancelling is very effective in countering Marth's approaches and down-tilt is extremley effective in edgeguarding him. Lucas, on the other hand, is a bit more difficult, but still doable. Crouch-cancelling can be rendered less effective because of Lucas' dair and grab approaches, however, Bowser still has meny tools to edgeguard him.
PM devs HAVE addressed this! Look at the countless buffs he's received since melee! He's a touchy character and they really need to make sure he has his faults solidified, otherwise he'll just be running around near ohko-ing everything.. Fox is ridiculous and all, but he gets insanely murdered by simple gimmick executions while he needs to be much more precise and quick in order to be rewardedI swear, it's like the posters claiming that Bowser is good are just spacies mainers or whatever that want to keep other characters down so PM can be like melee where only a few characters are truly viable. There's no good argument to defend such claims and it only leaves one to suspect an ulterior motive. PM devs should address this issue if they don't want PM to decline into total obscurity. Maybe the PM devs themselves are part of the conspiracy, because otherwise what were they even thinking with Bowser?
I mean Bowser is definitely better than Melee, but he's not good, he used to be from 2.1 to 2.6, but he's received almost nothing but nerfs since 2.1, he's been unplayable since 3.0 imo. Even in Melee Bowser has ok MUs against spacies, it's like everyone else that's the problem, imo Bowser's only positive MU in PM is Puff, he has a couple even ones, but they're mostly bad.PM devs HAVE addressed this! Look at the countless buffs he's received since melee! He's a touchy character and they really need to make sure he has his faults solidified, otherwise he'll just be running around near ohko-ing everything.. Fox is ridiculous and all, but he gets insanely murdered by simple gimmick executions while he needs to be much more precise and quick in order to be rewarded
I agree with you, but if you crouch cancel with the shield button, often times Marth will miss the grab because you will end up spot-dodging.Pretty sure against CC marth can either
a) grab and get easy setups on Bowser
b) dash attack at like 50%. It doesn't take long for Marth to get 50% on us.
Works a charm before that though.
What I meant is that you press the shield button while you hold down to crouch cancel. This way you can pullout your shield or tech if you are hit.How does one CC with the shield button?
He got like two buffs in 3.5, one of which is incredibly useless and then more nerfs.Bowsers spotdodge sucks real bad... Plz no.
Also deadjames 3.5 Bowser got some real nice buffs in a patch where everyone else got needed.
Hmm dunmo what you mean.He got like two buffs in 3.5, one of which is incredibly useless and then more nerfs.
Have you ever tried putting a bit of effort into learning what you're talking about before spouting nonsense?He got like two buffs in 3.5, one of which is incredibly useless.
In some matchups, sort of.Just about all of his armor is buffed. That's more than enough.
Bowser is definitely worse than 3.0, imo. Because of the fortress nerf he's way more susceptible to platform pressure, since fortressing off a platform sends you into special fall it's no longer safe to up-b OoS if someone hits your shield from below since the hitbox doesn't stay active.Wait what? I never said it's distance got buffed.Have you ever tried putting a bit of effort into learning what you're talking about before spouting nonsense?
Bowser is still pretty terrible compared to most of the cast, but pretending that he's anywhere near as useless as in 3.0 is incredibly silly.
he's been unplayable since 3.0 imo.
imo Bowser's only positive MU in PM is Puff
He got like two buffs in 3.5, one of which is incredibly useless and then more nerfs.
When you're simply, factually wrong on this regular of a basis, it's probably time to slow down, take some deep breaths, and do some reading. I don't claim to know definitively if Bowser has any positive matchups, but if he does, Puff isn't the one.Dash attack has always been bad
You are my heroNot enough people take the time to play him and learn to overcome his weaknesses. He has just a little too many bad matchups and he can be camped out easy.
Don't listen to what people have to say about him. His recovery is great, he lives forever and he can do some f*cked up **** even in top level gameplay. The only reason why he is bad is because people don't play him and are too stuck on wishing certain attributes are better when they should really be focusing on exploiting his advantageous attributes he gained from PM. I can't necessarily comment on his spot in the tier list but most do not understand enough and would just rather generalize and throw em in the low tiers
It's an extremely volatile matchup, so much so that even though I main Bowser in PM and Puff in Melee, I don't consider myself qualified to say who is favored or by how much - though my instinct is that it's near even.If you think Bowser doesn't beat Puff that's going to require a deeper explanation
I'm glad you think so. I speak the truth.. from tons of tournament experience. A lot of his matchups aren't the greatest but he's a clutch tournament characterYou are my hero
Indeed. I'll expound a bit for anyone else reading:I'm glad you think so. I speak the truth.. from tons of tournament experience. A lot of his matchups aren't the greatest but he's a clutch tournament character
Like?Regardless, I'm extremely confident that Bowser has better matchups than Puff, whether he 'wins' against her or not.
1. Every character requires precise tech skill at a high levelIndeed. I'll expound a bit for anyone else reading:
1. Low tech skill floor. Though optimally Bowser should be played with a lot of highly precise stuff like perfect wavelands, pivot jabs, klaw cancels, etc -- you can get by in a lot of matchups just by playing a very simple, defensive CC dtilt, fair, dash attack, upB based style. This lets you avoid a lot of the physical (ie. on your hands) and mental fatigue that occurs inevitably over the course of a tournament.
2. Bowser is terrifying to play against. Opponents tend to get nerves against Bowser - both because he's got the stigma of being a bad character (and nobody wants to lose to a low tier) and because there's a bunch of ways he can kill you at very low %. A lot of people react totally incorrectly to this and will try to rush you down, which is of course exactly what bowser wants.
3. The matchup is weird. Most people don't really understand how to properly play against bowser, and will get confused when you armor through their moves, Klaw them from the air, or kill them with downB ledgehogs. Experience in other matchups doesn't translate to doing well against Bowser as well as it might, so you're liable to get some wins simply because the opponent has no idea what he's supposed to do, or what Bowser's capabilities are.
So in tournament, he's kinda got a Melee Jigglypuff effect where he loses most matchups (and some of them pretty badly) but the mental pressure he puts on his opponent is exhausting and nerve-wracking to play against, so he has a bunch of metagame advantages, despite the in-game disadvantages.
This is spot onIndeed. I'll expound a bit for anyone else reading:
1. Low tech skill floor. Though optimally Bowser should be played with a lot of highly precise stuff like perfect wavelands, pivot jabs, klaw cancels, etc -- you can get by in a lot of matchups just by playing a very simple, defensive CC dtilt, fair, dash attack, upB based style. This lets you avoid a lot of the physical (ie. on your hands) and mental fatigue that occurs inevitably over the course of a tournament.
2. Bowser is terrifying to play against. Opponents tend to get nerves against Bowser - both because he's got the stigma of being a bad character (and nobody wants to lose to a low tier) and because there's a bunch of ways he can kill you at very low %. A lot of people react totally incorrectly to this and will try to rush you down, which is of course exactly what bowser wants.
3. The matchup is weird. Most people don't really understand how to properly play against bowser, and will get confused when you armor through their moves, Klaw them from the air, or kill them with downB ledgehogs. Experience in other matchups doesn't translate to doing well against Bowser as well as it might, so you're liable to get some wins simply because the opponent has no idea what he's supposed to do, or what Bowser's capabilities are.
So in tournament, he's kinda got a Melee Jigglypuff effect where he loses most matchups (and some of them pretty badly) but the mental pressure he puts on his opponent is exhausting and nerve-wracking to play against, so he has a bunch of metagame advantages, despite the in-game disadvantages.