Im Fragbait
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2014
- Messages
- 166
Im sorry the only difference i see is the dashing other than that he feels completely the same someone halp pls.
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Oh and his recovery is so crap in pm ... I mean this ***** be looking like little macMaybe because, he has been nerfed a few times, and there are more than like, 8 viable characters he has to fight against???
Nah its way better than his and just play better. Watch axe play falco in PM or any good falco over on melee.Oh and his recovery is so crap in pm ... I mean this ***** be looking like little mac
theres no reduced shield stun, and laser set ups are the same on shield that they were in melee.Maybe it's because of reduced shield stun and laser set ups on shield aren't super free anymore?
OMG THATS WHY MY BROTHER KEEPS GRABBING ME WHEN I SHINE HIM JESUS THAT GETS ANNOYING GIVEN HE PLAYS MARTH ANYWAYS GREAT POST THANKS FOR INFOthe main reason is because of the buffed cast, and additional characters from brawl that were redesigned to a melee environment. however, falco did undergo a few nerfs. these nerfs dont change the core playstyle of the character, but instead force you to be more precise to get similar rewards as melee falco, these nerfs are as follows:
1.) loss of invincibility on shine.
this one is seemingly unimportant, as the invincibility in melee was only a single frame on frame 1, but this actually is a big thing at a higher level of play, as it now means that moves can clank with the shine, and characters have one more additional frame to potentially escape shield pillars (i.e. if a grab and a shine collide on the same frame, the grab wins now, whereas in melee, shine wins. similarly, up b OOS options can clank now instead of being beat every time by it.). this nerf hit fox harder since it affects his shine spike as well, and he cant just run in > CC and shine.
2.) lasers decay in damage based on distance.
all this means is that camping yields less of a damage reward. its rather minute for falco, and hit fox harder since laser camping for damage was a bigger thing for his faster lasers.
3.) dair now has a sourspot.
doesnt mean you cant get the same kills, or the same gimps, but it means that you cant just throw a dair out offstage and have it last for 20 minutes, all the while still retaining the same hitbox size and spiking ability. now falcos foot sticks out from the hitbox and theres a negative disjoint, meaning that many recoveries will be able to beef through the sourspot. this forces you to be more patient and precise.
not game breaking, but just makes the MUs tighter and more fun, and less of a sh** show for some characters. but nonetheless, yes, this makes falco worse compared to melee.
theres no reduced shield stun, and laser set ups are the same on shield that they were in melee.
i mean it does give you an entire frame that marth cant grab you on. it helps in avoiding any grabs to an extent.The laser does a half of a percent. I think that recovery was restored in 3.5, and I am unaware to any change to his dash.
Shine invincibility wouldn't help with Marth's grab even in Melee, yo spacin just bad.
well yes, falcos shield pressure is still insane. nonetheless, thats still an entire extra frame that allows for people to potentially shield grab him, and in the scope of reaction timings, that can be a big thing for some.If your shield pressure is good enough you really shouldn't have this problem though. Falco is still really good in the fact that lasers disrupt movement and shine still essentially does what it used to.
The main thing that hurts him is that there are so many other characters that are viable. 3.5 was a net buff for him though, since almost everyone else was hurt to a greater extent than him.
I agree that his nerfs are really not that major, but the buffs of the other cast change the dynamic of the interactions/punishment/neutral of the matchups enough that even though falco is still better to slightly better in the neutral, the interactions to stock loss ratio seem to favor other characters compared to melee.A Majority his nerfs arent really major. The biggest one so far is the Dair nerf.
I do feel that saying that (if i'm interpreting this right) "Spaces are vastly overrated, mostly coming form ignorance." is a 2 way street. Most people are going to be more familiar with the Spacie MU and common spacie play (I say common, because I feel that there are no new age spacies that utilize the new global tools enough.), and that most spacie players haven't learned/earned enough experience for all the new character MUs and the drastically altered MUs.
So a player who played Melee for 6 years that picks up PM Lucas is in general going to have an easier time against a 6 year Falco main from Melee who's just picking up PM.
Falco has less potent tools, but more tools overall so his skill ceiling has risen meaning that even the best Falco's have MORE room to improve.
Everything in Smash does fractional damage. We don't track that stuff usually, but lasers demonstrate this. The laser + stale moves means you might do only .6% with a laser, and so if you hit with two, it will read .6% (rounds up to 1%), and then 1.2% (rounds down to 1%) implying no damage was taken, but damage was indeed taken. If it starts at 0% and still reads 0%, the laser did .4999999[whatever the cap is]9% or less due to laser staling over distance.Also, I noticed that sometimes Falco's laser does 0% at long range. I know that the damage is decreased the farther it has to travel, but come on, 0%? It should 1% at max. This doesn't bother me at all, but it just makes sense for a laser to do some kind of damage.
Falco deserved to be nerfed relatively to the rest of the cast. If you ever played a mid-tier vs a competent Falco you'd see Melee is not a fair fight. Falco still wins most [probably all, sans the Melee ones and maybe a few new ones that are probably even] MUs, but only slightly [or by a lot, but having to be good at them, ex: Falcon], as opposed to blowing out 90% of the cast.As a falco main steady in PM and Melee, I can agree that he's been so drastically nerfed compared to the rest of the cast.
However, unlike Sm4sh's Falco, he hasn't been drastically nerfed to the point of tier dropping lower than Mario.
In PM, he's gained a couple new chain grabs/ jab resets into chain grabs, and a lot of precision and he's required to constantly pressure his opponent, which suits my play style.
The laser damage is ignorable, as Falco still has that MLG Stun with his lasers.
IMO, to fully make him viable, they could edit his move set again
A melee moveset really doesn't suit him in most situations, especially his Fair, compared to Brawls Air game, I preferred that moveset a lot more as his fair could be l-canceled in PM into a punish.
But that's just me
exactly man. I don't mind them being drawn back a bit, but having them be worse than PAL is too much. And I really do feel like everyone else is centralized on killing a space animal. Might be a little short sighted, but I still think theres some accuracy to the claim.Denjinpachi "I'm just saying, the risks should be worth the reward. Before, they had too much for free, now they have to do too much for less than what they put in."
Yes I agree this is how I have been feeling too. They got a little bit too much for free in Melee, but in PM, they don't get as much as they should in return for the massive amount of effort that is required to be technically skilled with Fox &/or Falco.
I don't think that that is shortsighted by any means. The competitive PM players that I meet with now and then (who play Ganondorf, Charizard, Snake, Diddy, etc...) practice all of their combos on Fox & Falco, all day. This isn't a bad thing, people need to know how to punish spacies so that it forces us to be on point! But I just feel like they took away the slight edge that Fox and Falco need to be able to fight back when someone really knows the matchup well. Because that's when the river meets the road. It's that moment in the match where you suddenly realize that this person is an expert on the destroying of space animals, and that's where one of 2 things need to happen- you either get whooped, or you pull out all of those countless hours of practice and start being clever and technical enough to make a comeback. But as of PM 3.6...there doesn't seem to be as much room to be able to make that comeback, do to the lack of so called "overpowered" tools that in reality are hard as hell to be good at using well in the first place! The question is...stuck with 3.6, what do we do now? I find the idea of playing Falco in the PM enviroment really cool- a fresh playfield with new challenges and matchups. But is it worth playing them instead of just picking up Game & Watch or Rob? I seem to get better results sometimes just playing a basic spacing game with those two then I do playing a technichal Falco. I wonder if it's worth the effort. That's my conundrum. Is Falco just there to be cool? Or is he going to be able to keep getting top tier results if we figure him out?exactly man. I don't mind them being drawn back a bit, but having them be worse than PAL is too much. And I really do feel like everyone else is centralized on killing a space animal. Might be a little short sighted, but I still think theres some accuracy to the claim.
Im fine with someone being really good against space animals. But, if a person is going to have a near dead set strategy on my character, I should be able to have one on theirs, or at least have a generally reliable plan. It feels like falco can't really edge guard unless he, in this order: Sends the opponent either 3/4 to the blast zone, spams laser to stop momentum, grab the ledge, then deal with whatever resource they may have left (Glide, tether, AGT, up-b) then risk getting hit while attempting to do something as simple as back air to ledge guard.I don't think that that is shortsighted by any means. The competitive PM players that I meet with now and then practice all of their combos on Fox & Falco, all day. This isn't a bad thing, people need to know how to punish spacies so that it forces us to be on point! But I just feel like they took away the slight edge that Fox and Falco need to be able to fight back when someone really knows the matchup well. Because that's when the river meets the road. It's that moment in the match where you suddenly realize that this person is an expert on the destroying space animals, and that's where one of 2 things need to happen- you either get whooped, or you pull out all of those countless hours of practice and start being clever and technical enough to make a comeback. But as of PM 3.6...there doesn't seem to be as much room to be able to make that comeback, do to the lack of so called "overpowered" tools that in reality are hard as hell to be good at using well in the first place!
True true, this is the version we are stuck with now and at least their won't be anymore nerfs. That's a great way of putting it though- if somebody has multiple perfectly usable zero to death plans for Falco (same goes for Fox), then he should also have those for them! This has actually been really productive. I think that is what we need to work on as Falco/Fox players in PM. Other characters have really put in a lot of time now figuring out perfect zero to death setups and the matchup against Spacies in general. I guess if we want to keep playing Falco & Fox in this game, we're just gonna have to do the same, like aMsA did with Yoshi in Melee. It may be harder in this game now. But it might be worth itIm fine with someone being really good against space animals. But, if a person is going to have a near dead set strategy on my character, I should be able to have one on theirs, or at least have a generally reliable plan. It feels like falco can't really edge guard unless he, in this order: Sends the opponent either 3/4 to the blast zone, spams laser to stop momentum, grab the ledge, then deal with whatever resource they may have left (Glide, tether, AGT, up-b) then risk getting hit while attempting to do something as simple as back air to ledge guard.
But, as an example im more than familiar with doing to people, King D3 on the flip side can inhale/grab someone, throw/spit them off stage, jump off, fair once or twice, then boom that's it. I think its funny, I like it, but c'mon Falco should at least be able to have reliable follow ups with his dair to kill someone off stage or above the ledge. They already made it smaller, they could've left the spike window the same. Only real thing I can be grateful for, as a spacie player in general, there won't be any more nerfs.