Why is Infinite Dimensinoal Cape banned?

[MrBlueSky]

I have been wondering this since I started attending tournaments.

Every tournament I have went to I have asked someone to perform the IDC glitch for me. And everytime I notice that they could not perform it for longer than 2 seconds. I have asked TO's why this technique was banned, and they always say its banned for stalling reasons. Now it may be that I have not met players who have practiced this technique, and if this is so, then I will look stupid for making this thread. But I have to ask, how can you ban this technique on theory alone?
Yes, it can theortically be used to stall for an infinite time, or in short bursts, but who can honestly use this technique in such a way?

And as I understand it, this technique was never used in tournaments, it was banned as soon as it was discovered based on theory craft alone. How can we do this? Its not right to ban something without tournament results.

Also, admins, if you believe that this will degenerate into a MK ban thread, OR if I am heavily misinformed, please lock/delete this thread. I just wanted to get a better understanding of why IDC was banned.

 

[Mr.-0]

It's easy to do. Almost any pro/high-level player can do it.

 

[MrBlueSky]

well I guess I look stupid then lol.

Really? Any high level player can use this to stall to the point of being game breaking?

 

[C.J.]

No one has needed to practice it because it was immediately banned. If it wasn't, then people would practice it.

 

[MrBlueSky]

No one has needed to practice it because it was immediately banned. If it wasn't, then people would practice it.

I would like to know how it came that this technique was banned. I really don't know that much about the situation as I was not here when it was discovered. How exactly did this all go down? Did anyone even use it at a tournament? It sounded to me like it was banned solely on theory craft, which isn't right. But I didn't know that it was sooo easy to do :/ (or to be more correct to win games with.)

 

[Life]

MK can remain invisible and invincible for as long as he likes. This is one of the rare cases where a ban is immediately obvious.

Even IDC for a half-second can throw things off. Say MK goes into cape and you go for a read with some laggy smash attack. IDC lets the MK hang out until the attack is in end lag and then strike. Otherwise, MK depends on not going in the direction of the smash to survive. Kinda OP even there.

 

[MrBlueSky]

MK can remain invisible and invincible for as long as he likes. This is one of the rare cases where a ban is immediately obvious.

Even IDC for a half-second can throw things off. Say MK goes into cape and you go for a read with some laggy smash attack. IDC lets the MK hang out until the attack is in end lag and then strike. Otherwise, MK depends on not going in the direction of the smash to survive. Kinda OP even there.

Cant argue with this. Ill just go back to lurking then.

 

[Mr.-0]

Yeah. It allows MK to easily approach without fear of punishment, recover without fear of punishment, and stall forever. Easy ban.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

^How can he "recover without fear"? when it can only be performed on the ground?

 

[z00ted]

he means recover from a undesired situation.

 

[Ghostbone]

From what I know people used to be able to perform it indefinitely, but since it's banned there's really no reason at all to practice it.

If there was a tournament with it legal I can assure you that everyone would pick up MK and learn to do it to stall for 8 minutes.

 

[Tesh]

Its actually really easy on wiichuck.

 

[Ghostbone]

Its actually really easy on wiichuck.

Yea I heard this.

Since you can set one of the buttons to up-smash, which does the same thing that flicking the c-stick upwards does, and would be much easier to do quickly.

 

[The Real Inferno]

My record in match with IDC without reappearing is 3 minutes. I can on average always do it for about 30 seconds or longer. I do it a lot for fun to annoy my friends who don't play competitively so I've actually had practice with the technique which is the most likely reason most people can't do it long. There is a rhythm to keeping it. If you just mash you will fall out easily.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Has anyone figured out the optimal BPM for it?

 

[The Real Inferno]

I don't know. Kind of feels like I'm playing the intro to Through the Fire and Flames on Guitar Hero though lol

 

[-LzR-]

Well that helps a lot lol xD

 

[Judo777]

Actually i kinda like this idea. I always say that is is banned for reasons beyond stalling or rather it has to be. Simply because we do not have enough data to prove that it can be used for stalling effectively. I always say because its too powerful outside of stalling but if that is the only reason then i call bs. I want to see someone win an entire tournament timing people out with this.

It's the argument used for perfect planking so im gonna make it here. IDC should be legal until we have evidence that proves it is too powerful.

 

[Ghostbone]

It's the argument used for perfect planking so im gonna make it here. IDC should be legal until we have evidence that proves it is too powerful.

Hold a tournament with IDC legal.
I dare you.

 

[FreakingMethodiC]

Hold a tournament with IDC legal.
I dare you.

^ This. You think Metaknight can time people out well now? Unban IDC and you better never let MK take a lead.

 

[Ghostbone]

If you legalize IDC you might as well legalize temple.

Same thing, your opponent gets the lead you lose....

 

[Judo777]

Hold a tournament with IDC legal.
I dare you.

Haha I just might. Just remember everytime MK slips he eats an attack. You know exactly where he will reappear so you just wait. Infact I would almost guarantee that if I held an IDC legal tourney a majority of stalling would be done in traditional methods since they are easier. Or more than likely a good player would just beat people with MK anyway and not need to stall.

My point still stands however. It should be legal if there isn't proof it can be done effectively for an entire tournament.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Actually you can reappear out of IDC into Ledge invincibility. That's how I do it if I feel like I'm going to pop out. You just slide over in IDC to the ledge and let go as he walks off the stage for an autosnap like when you recover with it.

 

[Judo777]

Actually you can reappear out of IDC into Ledge invincibility. That's how I do it if I feel like I'm going to pop out. You just slide over in IDC to the ledge and let go as he walks off the stage for an autosnap like when you recover with it.

you can see that entire motion. If I saw you do it once the second time i might autosnap before you and kill you. Theory craft isn't what I'm reasoning though because perfect planking is theoretically unbeatable also. Imma use the typical argument for MK stalling.

Win a large tournament with it and then you have justification.

 

[infiniteV115]

I am amazed that there are actually people who believe we should put IDC into tournies before banning it. Are you guys actually considering that the competitive scene for a fighting game should allow a technique that MAKES YOUR CHARACTER INVINCIBLE FOR AS LONG AS THE PLAYER WANTS?! Seriously?! Not to mention that it requires almost no skill in any other areas in the game (only exception would be getting a lead, of any size). Imagine going to a major tournament and seeing people getting timed out while they still have 3 stocks and roughly 50%. This scenario should scream RIDICULOUS to everyone.

Even if nobody wins a major tournament with it, it's going to cause a huge skew in the results. IDC would be broken for any char, why would you allow it for the one character that's far better than the rest of the cast?

And if you think it's too hard to do it consistently, remember that you can just switch the up on the taunt pad to usmash. Then both thumbs can just be used at 1/2x speed.

tl;dr it's completely broken, the theory alone is valid ban criteria. Results not needed to see that it is broken. Open your eyes.

 

[Judo777]

I am amazed that there are actually people who believe we should put IDC into tournies before banning it. Are you guys actually considering that the competitive scene for a fighting game should allow a technique that MAKES YOUR CHARACTER INVINCIBLE FOR AS LONG AS THE PLAYER WANTS?! Seriously?! Not to mention that it requires almost no skill in any other areas in the game (only exception would be getting a lead, of any size). Imagine going to a major tournament and seeing people getting timed out while they still have 3 stocks and roughly 50%. This scenario should scream RIDICULOUS to everyone.

Even if nobody wins a major tournament with it, it's going to cause a huge skew in the results. IDC would be broken for any char, why would you allow it for the one character that's far better than the rest of the cast?

And if you think it's too hard to do it consistently, remember that you can just switch the up on the taunt pad to usmash. Then both thumbs can just be used at 1/2x speed.

tl;dr it's completely broken, the theory alone is valid ban criteria. Results not needed to see that it is broken. Open your eyes.

I don't actually think this should be legal. However.......... I am using it to illustrate a point. You know what is is theoretically unbeatable? MK's perfect planking. Why isn't that banned? You wanna know what is reasonably unbeatable? MK's reasonably proper planking. Why isn't that banned?

 

[Ghostbone]

I don't actually think this should be legal. However.......... I am using it to illustrate a point. You know what is is theoretically unbeatable? MK's perfect planking. Why isn't that banned? You wanna know what is reasonably unbeatable? MK's reasonably proper planking. Why isn't that banned?

There's a big difference.

If IDC was legal people would be able to perform it for 8 minutes. It also makes you completely invincible, and your opponent can't do anything to stop it once it has started. It can also be discretely banned, and is a glitch. IDC is broken in reality, I have no doubt that with a large enough pot you'd see everyone using MK and every match going to time from it.
(you'd also see an increase in wii-chuck users >.>)

MK's planking can not be discretely banned, and is a subjective nerf on an already extremely borderline character.
A LGL also nerfs many other characters, even though their planking is no where near broken.
In this case it's something that no other character can do to anywhere near the extent MK can, it's just MK abusing his extremely fast aerials to prevent approaches, and to me that doesn't point to the specific tactic of staying below the edge abusing extremely large and fast attacks is broken, but that MK is an extremely frame safe character that can most likely abuse his mechanics everywhere, and that MK as a whole is broken.

 

[Kewkky]

you can see that entire motion. If I saw you do it once the second time i might autosnap before you and kill you. Theory craft isn't what I'm reasoning though because perfect planking is theoretically unbeatable also. Imma use the typical argument for MK stalling.

Uhh, you're theorycrafting indeed. Why would the MK go in that direction if you're near that edge? If he sees you make a run for either edge then he'll go the other way. How can you tell where he's going to go, when he's going to reappear, or on what edge he's going to try and snap if he's invincible and invisible while doing it? What if he decides on appearing on top of your character and attacking you? I dare you to properly powershield a completely unexpected less-than-5 frame hitbox (MK boards has the data for downB, but not for the attack... It's not useless if MK has IDC).

If you move to the left, he goes to the right. If you follow him, then he just keeps IDC'ing and goes in another direction. If you commit to something, he attacks you. All of this while he's invisible and invincible, and you can't intercept it. Sounds fair? Should we unban it?

 

[ryuu seika]

I don't know. Kind of feels like I'm playing the intro to Through the Fire and Flames on Guitar Hero though lol

This makes it sound much more appealing.

 

[Judo777]

Uhh, you're theorycrafting indeed. Why would the MK go in that direction if you're near that edge? If he sees you make a run for either edge then he'll go the other way. How can you tell where he's going to go, when he's going to reappear, or on what edge he's going to try and snap if he's invincible and invisible while doing it? What if he decides on appearing on top of your character and attacking you? I dare you to properly powershield a completely unexpected less-than-5 frame hitbox (MK boards has the data for downB, but not for the attack... It's not useless if MK has IDC).

If you move to the left, he goes to the right. If you follow him, then he just keeps IDC'ing and goes in another direction. If you commit to something, he attacks you. All of this while he's invisible and invincible, and you can't intercept it. Sounds fair? Should we unban it?

Yea that's why after I theory crafted I stated that despite my statement thats not the point. I then proceeded to state my point. And actually just because MK in invisible doesn't mean you don't know where he is. The entire screen toggles with him as he moves one way or another. its pretty simple to figure out even if you haven't sat down and looked at it. You can easily react to where MK is going. His momentum change when IDCing is pretty subpar. Just don't ever let him get on top of you and react to how the screen toggles. But again theory craft isn't my point.

@ghost i think MK is broken as a hole. But I'm simply comparing one banned thing to something else that IS broken that ISN'T banned. To be fair though IDC is broken for reasons outside of stalling and it can be extended a little without much notice more so have fun proving it when they do it. If the wii isn't hacked they can just let the clock run out. You have to pause it to prove they did it. If ur wrong your dqed. Kinda sucks if you ask me.

 

[Kewkky]

Yea that's why after I theory crafted I stated that despite my statement thats not the point. I then proceeded to state my point. And actually just because MK in invisible doesn't mean you don't know where he is. The entire screen toggles with him as he moves one way or another. its pretty simple to figure out even if you haven't sat down and looked at it. You can easily react to where MK is going. His momentum change when IDCing is pretty subpar. Just don't ever let him get on top of you and react to how the screen toggles. But again theory craft isn't my point.

No, it's not simple figuring out where he is, where he's gonna be, how fast he's going, if he stopped, if he started moving, or if the player's about to stop and shield/dsmash/grounded SL/tornado/roll/downB attack/go for the ledge/whatever. The camera moves, but the camera moving doesn't give you anything except a hint of how far or close the opponent is to you. If you commit to anything at all, then he just lets go of down and voila, he attacked with a fast attack and you couldn't evade it! If you jump and you're far away, then he stops IDC'ing and rests by planking/scrooging/platform camping/whatever.

 

[Judo777]

No, it's not simple figuring out where he is, where he's gonna be, how fast he's going, if he stopped, if he started moving, or if the player's about to stop and shield/dsmash/grounded SL/tornado/roll/downB attack/go for the ledge/whatever. The camera moves, but the camera moving doesn't give you anything except a hint of how far or close the opponent is to you. If you commit to anything at all, then he just lets go of down and voila, he attacked with a fast attack and you couldn't evade it! If you jump and you're far away, then he stops IDC'ing and rests by planking/scrooging/platform camping/whatever.

Ok well yes it is simple where he is gonna be because you said it urself you know how far he is from you. You know hes on the ground cause he has to be so you in fact do know where he is. As to what hes doing.... he has 2 options. Stop IDCing without an attack or stop with an attack. Thats neat that he can do those cool options after the move but there is quite a bit of lag afterward. IF he stops and hes not on you, and hes not on the ledge it can be punished pretty much everytime within reasonable distance (which it should be since you know how far he is from you on the ground).

But again screw theory we need results.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Sometimes I don't think you need results to see something is broken, I think this is one of those cases.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Sometimes I don't think you need results to see something is broken, I think this is one of those cases.

*nods*

Common sense exists after all.

IMO, common sense also says that MK's perfect planking needs to be dealt with one way or another, but it already kinda is with constant LGLs. If those weren't in place, somebody would eventually take the time to master it. You don't need to wait to see it happen. It just needs to be officially dealt with now, either with a character specific LGL, or a character ban, depending on your views with character move targeting bans. But that's not up for discussion here.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Sometimes I don't think you need results to see something is broken, I think this is one of those cases.

I agree with this 100%.
We should make New Pork Legal too.​

 

[theONEjanitor]

i find it hilarious that IDC is banned and MK planking isn't. they are essentially the same thing.

(making yourself completely unattackable, thus stalling)

 

[Kewkky]

i find it hilarious that IDC is banned and MK planking isn't. they are essentially the same thing.

(making yourself completely unattackable, thus stalling)

They're not essentially the same thing. One makes you CLEARLY invincible and invisible for the whole time you're doing it, while the other is just a great defensive tactic. Controversial, sure, but NOT the same thing as IDC.

 

[theONEjanitor]

no,
planking, when performed correctly (with MK), makes you completely invincible.

 

[Ghostbone]

no,
planking, when performed correctly (with MK), makes you completely invincible.

No it doesn't

 

[Kewkky]

no,
planking, when performed correctly (with MK), makes you completely invincible.

Prove it by making MK plank on an on-stage ledge while having a character behind him attack him. It does NOT make MK completely invincible, he's just THAT hard to hit. If planking DID make MK completely invincible, he'd have invincibility frames during the entire tactic, and if it was comparable to IDC then ANYONE could perfect plank with MK, yet not even M2K has perfectly planked with MK. Theory =/= practice, else I could tech any vertical-knockback usmash in the game all the time.

And I reiterate, it doesn't make you completely invincible, it only makes you THAT hard to hit. There's a difference between technically invincible and metaphorically invincible, the latter implies that you can actually be beaten but the chances are slim.