Why is ness bad?

[Neon Ness]

To be honest, I don't really understand topics like this. There's a similar one in the Lucas Boards. The thread creator says "Why does X character suck?" and then lists all of their advantages.

Well, obviously your opinion is that they don't. If you're meaning to ask why other people seem to think so, then, yeah, it's because they either don't use them or don't know anything about them.

Yes, it is cliche, but I'ma say it anyway: There is no such thing as a bad character. What I mean is, there is no character that will yield zero results when you put forth quality effort into them. People for the most part choose characters they like. In doing so, they naturally spend time getting better with them. Over time, the person masters that character to the point where the character can no longer be reasonably be considered "bad". It's all about the time you put in. Any person can make any character look excellent.

If you're asking about tier lists, well... I mean, would Ness be more fun to use if a bunch of people you've probably never met marked him as C or B Tier? It has no bearing on anything. Nothing would change. You wouldn't start winning any more or less because of it.

He's good if you put effort into him. Goes for every single character in the game.

 

[SlipperyNess]

Actually, Levitas, I'm not talking about firebounding, I know how to do that consistently. I'm talking about a normal DJC PK fire, with a B-Stick. It just places the PK fire bolt in an unexpected spot when both characters are airbound, which is useful for avoiding punishment/landing the pk fire.

And, thanks for the welcome. I hope I can be a good addition to the Ness boards.

 

[Tenki]

Don't call it a firedash. It's just a b reversal out of a run. Anyone can do this with pretty much any special.

Exactly.

I'm talking about a normal DJC PK fire, with a B-Stick.

Anything you can do with a B-stick, you can do manually. Just saying :3


----------------

O_o;

it's sort of bizarre reading this kind of stuff in a different char board.

It's like the Sonic boards, with the main difference that the majority of the people who argue in one of the boards actually know their character, lol.

 

[KoSa!]

Wow didn't think this would get to 3 pages over night.

I am actually going to be able to test my Ness more in some friendlies, so again this is all in theory.

PK Fire- I have found plenty uses for this. Its a great move in doubles, to set up team combos. And my most favorite use of this move is punishing shields, or rolls. If someone does a running shield or something, this can easily be used to create some distance. And if they try to roll out, you have enough time to catch them with a Bair or Fair. If they do a roll approach or if they are hanging on the edge and do a roll. Easily predict and PK Fire, creates some space between you and the enemy. PK Fire, I have found from my novice experience can set up for gimps off stage. A PK Fire on a Fox charging his upB can stop him right before doing his recover and make for an easy Dair, or Bair. I actually landed this a few times on characters like fox,dedede,rob,wario, and Luigi. It can also be used to predict where your enemy is headed with his character. If throw as a hazard you enemy is forced to dodge it. So someone like Pikachu has to use his upB to avoid it and you can have a boot awaiting his arrival. But what if you enemy goes in head on, then guess one. There going to taste a boot too.

 

[Levitas]

Actually, Levitas, I'm not talking about firebounding, I know how to do that consistently. I'm talking about a normal DJC PK fire, with a B-Stick. It just places the PK fire bolt in an unexpected spot when both characters are airbound, which is useful for avoiding punishment/landing the pk fire.

And, thanks for the welcome. I hope I can be a good addition to the Ness boards.

Huh, I honestly wouldn't have thought of trying that. nice.

 

[Razmakazi]

I'm only posting here coz someone on the front page had to say something stupid like ness shud be above peach/wigi/pit on the tier list. <_<

and i started using ness for the lulz lately and...sumtimes lack of range is annoying and his tilts really suck imo. Well, i like the utilt and the ftilt is fast but raaaaaaaange. And even if ness isn't exactly the easiest to gimp at times he's still fairly gimpable. Iono, I just think ness's aerials are the only good thing about him. oh and his gay pivot range. I've only been using him for a week but this is wut I think about him.

 

[AranOcean]

Ness isn't that bad of a character. At least he improved from Melee imo.

 

[KoSa!]

Yeah ness fail nevermind. He is fun to play, but... he isn't as good as I thought.

 

[PKSkyler]

And, really, most importantly, once you figure out his strongest points and once you realize how much baiting he relies on, he's ridiculously easy to shut down. It's sick, and it's probably why he's seen as poor for the most part. The way this game was made ***** him. Decent moveset, but it's not going too far in a game like Brawl.

Basically. Once people actually figure out Ness' tricks, he becomes even worse.

So yeah, Ness sucks. i recently decided I was going to play the game for fun only, however, and so I'm still sticking with Ness.

 

[Brinzy]

^^^ I LOVE your mixed music! I'm just now clicking it. >.>


On a sorta uplifting note, he's a great niche character, I find... for me at least. He's the only character I play where being fancy actually ties in with his effectiveness, somewhat. I like to use him when people are warmed up on another character of mine.

 

[Uffe]

You can all think Ness sucks while I try to make an attempt to get better. :/

 

[Man of Popsicle]

There going to taste a boot too.

I always thought ness had some super stylish tennis shoes.
I've been lied too

 

[Master Knight DH]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayToW40w1EY&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OubzYLh8S0Q&fmt=18

Anybody who thinks Melee Ness is just horrible should answer to this two parter.

(There's still some PSI Fire overuse, granted, but I'm getting the point where it should be used purely on necessity.)

 

[Canvasofgrey]

I'm only posting here coz someone on the front page had to say something stupid like ness shud be above peach/wigi/pit on the tier list. <_<

and i started using ness for the lulz lately and...sumtimes lack of range is annoying and his tilts really suck imo. Well, i like the utilt and the ftilt is fast but raaaaaaaange. And even if ness isn't exactly the easiest to gimp at times he's still fairly gimpable. Iono, I just think ness's aerials are the only good thing about him. oh and his gay pivot range. I've only been using him for a week but this is wut I think about him.

Depends how you use them Raz. The thing about his tilts is that they come out fast, ubut have little withstanding, so the hitboxes go away really fast. Treat his tilts like jabs in a sense except some of his tilts you can't spam due to lag, like his Utilt. His Ftilt is pretty nice to combo with his jabs, or at least I think so because I do it alot since I do the same with Squirtle. His Dtilt can lock for a short amount of time, and can be used to edge guard people. Remember that one time I dtilt edgeguarded you? That's the process.

Never gimp with Ness. His recovery is unreliable, and you might be killing yourself with it. Try using his PK Bomb instead, or PK Fire. If you can do the Chaz combo, it's even better. Try using the control stick to control his second jump. Ness is one of the few characters that can literally curve his jump "C-jump" I call it. C motion yourself to avoid characters that come off to gimp you, the recover with PKT2.

We should Ness ditto, and I'll show you want I do with him.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayToW40w1EY&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OubzYLh8S0Q&fmt=18

Anybody who thinks Melee Ness is just horrible should answer to this two parter.

(There's still some PSI Fire overuse, granted, but I'm getting the point where it should be used purely on necessity.)

Huh? You're saying Ness wasn't bad in melee over 15 minute brawls with troops that can be KO in one hit? O.o

You baffle me.

 

[Master Knight DH]

Huh? You're saying Ness wasn't bad in melee over 15 minute brawls with troops that can be KO in one hit? O.o

You baffle me.

One important catch: I don't abuse the Screw Attack to no end.

PSI Fire is a solid defense, period. So is the Neutral Air, or heck, Ness's air attacks in general but the Neutral Air stands out. And the Yo-Yo? Enough said. And he has the continuous hitbox dash attack for offense too.

 

[Neon Ness]

If you can do the Chaz combo, it's even better.

Lawlz. "Chaz Combo".

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

That's why.

 

[PKSkyler]

^^^ I LOVE your mixed music! I'm just now clicking it. >.>


On a sorta uplifting note, he's a great niche character, I find... for me at least. He's the only character I play where being fancy actually ties in with his effectiveness, somewhat. I like to use him when people are warmed up on another character of mine.

Thanks! :D

Hes definantly got a great style! Hes also very fun, sometimes even when losing. Plus....MOTHER fanboyism.... >_>

@S.O.L.I.D

Ness has got more style than you will ever know.

 

[Levitas]

MK DH, while that vid is impressive, Ness is still terrible in melee.

Uffe, you've got the wrong idea. I intend to get better w/ ness, too. As do at least a vast majority of us.

 

[PK-ow!]

Somewhat recently I played against a Melee veteran who was using Zelda in Brawl and while I was stomping him he said "Did Ness get an even bigger buff than Zelda from Melee to Brawl?" I said "yes, a lot bigger". I also still get people complaining about the priority of PKT2 sweetspot, who become even more surprised after the match when I inform them PKT2 sweetspot is invincible. I've actually had a Meta Knight complain during a game about Ness' priority.

That Meta Knight is a ****ing douche. No excuses.

I'm going to be picking up Marth (and GaW) soon, and one thing I intend is to transfer what I learn from Marth about spacing, zoning, and pressure into Ness.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

@S.O.L.I.D

Ness has got more style than you will ever know.

Whateva whateva I do what I want!

 

[:mad:]

Whateva whateva I do what I want!

We don't need you here.
If you want infractions, go to the pool room, please.

 

[Kaitou Ace]

I love Ness to death but so many things shut him down. I feel that even with PK Jump, PK fire is still way too punishable. I do think that it's much more useful than Lucas's in terms of gimping recoveries and trapping people.

I feel that one of Ness's biggest weakness is his approach. The only thing you really have to open with because of it's overall effectiveness is Fair, and even then, it doesn't punish shields that much early on and can be easily shieldgrabbed. The only thing that saves his Fsmash is that it can't get shieldgrabbed but other than that it's too slow to really rely on.

His recovery is seriously upsetting. The fact that any character can just jump right in front of your PK Thunder thing is just horrible and it's so upsetting when your Ness gets gimped @_@ Most people will respond to this by saying that you should be smart and do a Nair or something to pressure people to get them to get back to the stage but with some of Ness's aerial lag, by the time he finishes the move, he's probably descended too far below the ledge to get back with PKT2. Even if you do manage to safely get back with PKT2, if your opponent is at low percent, he can probably afford to take the hit because unlike Lucas's PKT2, if Ness hits someone with it, it slows down and his recovery distance with it decreases by a big margin.

His ground game is average. It's saving graces are the lovely ftilt which has wonderful range and often mixes up your opponent and sends them enough to safely follow up with a dash attack. As much as I love dtilt, it just seems so situational, i.e. when they're in PK fire pillars or when they use a laggy attack but other than that, the close range required for dtilt is just not so good. Mad props for utilt, though <3 Great set up.

For his aerial game, it's definitely above average but there's still some big flaws. While we know dair to be a great spike, the start up lag often messes you up and it's too dangerous to use on stage. Because of this, Ness can be juggled pretty easily and if he's the one who's the victim of an aerial pursuit, it's hard for him to safely get back to the ground Uair is good, the priority is very nice but the range could be better. Fair is his safety approach method and damage racker but becomes very predictable. I actually really like Bair because of the trajectory it sends your opponents which can make for easy ceiling kills but the need for it to always be a sweetspot makes it not as used as I want it to be. It's also doesn't have such great priority.

His B-moves....eh.

I love Ness to death and his recovery can be dealt with but his movepool doesn't really make up for it. His projectiles require too much thought, especially when going up against super campy characters like Falco, and his generally low priority doesn't help him either. I hope Sakurai looks at this thread for the next SSB game D:

Edit: I love his jab, though <3 One of his best approach stoppers.

 

[cHooKay]

just read the thread topic:

my reason for ness being bad is because he utterly sucks against marth. and everybody knows that your bound to face a marth sometime whether it be a friendly or a tourney...

besides worrying about the grab release thing (even though its been somewhat proven to be not infinite) marth range literally destroys ness...

fyi, ness is one of my characters, i'm speaking on experience...

 

[Levitas]

Marth is definitely not the only reason.

 

[Neon Ness]

I actually have some issues with Kaitou Ace's post...

There are definitely Nesses who know how to use dair safely on stage. I dunno where this "it's too dangerous to use on stage" is coming from. Short hopped, it basically creates a brick wall against a lot of characters, and it's really useful if you need to play defensively on most occasions.

Also, I think back air has good priority, I mean, it clanks with Falco Phantasm and overrides Bowser's Fire Breath. Maybe the sour spot has less priority, iono.

But yeah, I pretty much agree with everything else.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

Quick note @cHooKay: Donkey Kong is still considered to be a good character even though he has an extremely bad matchup against King Dedede.

 

[:mad:]

Ness is a great character. He only lacks what the higher tiered characters have. Overwhelming advantages over characters like us. We'd have more tournament Nesses if only it was easier.

People hate hard work.

 

[DemonFart]

Yeah Ness isn't that bad.

@straked:ugh,yeah nobody wants to try...shame

 

[Man of Popsicle]

While we know dair to be a great spike, the start up lag often messes you up and it's too dangerous to use on stage.

Sourspot it. Launch it a a while before you land and it has just as much priority I think, it also launches the opponent up, letting you juggle.

Or just mix up the direction in a fastfall and airdodge if necessary.

 

[Masky]

Bad recovery and grab release problems (NOT just against Marth)
(answering the topic's question)

 

[DemonFart]

Dang 40 frames of grab release.

His recovery is horrid.

 

[Uffe]

Great. The recovery discussion. How many times have we had this one?

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Great. The recovery discussion. How many times have we had this one?

9001 too many.

 

[KoSa!]

The intention of this thread wasn't to make a recovery discussion just an to see an overall look at the characters metagame. I do agree its hard work but now I'm starting to think the hard work is in vain. Characters like Snake, Olimar, and ICeys have high potentials and with hard work can destroy in tourneys. But to me a hard working Ness will still lose to a mediocre Falco. Am I right? Ness is a great character when you talk in theory but pulling it off against a character that has something that they can abuse it just doesn't work. I completely changed my mind about this character and the questions I had have been answered, unless something gamebreaking comes out he is staying right where he is on the tier list.

 

[Uffe]

You made me laugh. There's no way a good Ness would lose to a mediocre Falco. Words don't make you an experienced player. Playing people does. Anyone can say this or that about any character, but when it comes right down to it, it's easier said than done. If you made an attempt to use Ness and didn't get far, it's because you're new with him. Don't expect to pick up some character and automatically be good with them just because they share similar attributes with another.

You make it sound like Ness would never place high in tournaments. The thing is is that a lot of people make him out to be a horrible character. The fact is he's not. Sure, he's got flaws, but so does the rest of the roster. We don't need something ground breaking to get him up higher. No, the only thing holding him back is the death grab and poor recovery, which isn't as easy to gimp as people like to think. I'd rather go with an underrated character than to follow the crowd with their top tiers. At least I'd look good doing so.

 

[icedragon-]

It seems to me that Ness has a few flaws that work entirely against him:

- limited ground range

- below average grab range (non dash grab)

- not too many options out of shield against opponent who conveniently spaces an attack

- recovery is simply degrading

- gets grab released by a chunk of the roster, thus enhancing their options while lowering yours

- PKT has a much larger spin axle than Lucas' which can be harder to punish with

- fsmash is strong but has noticeable start up and cool down lag

- dsmash and usmash are weak for how slow they are (even though they have been buffed from melee to brawl)

- PK fire can easily be smash DI'ed out of. Disjointed attacks can still hit you if you try to use it as a barrier or defensive option


Now don't get me wrong, Ness can still be very dangerous in the hands of a skillful brawler. He (or any character on the roster) shouldn't be taken lightly. For those of you who have played Vicegrip or NessFTW you would very well know what I'm talking about. He still has a few things going for him. Most are situational but it's still okay.

 

[Levitas]

Does this thread still have a purpose, or should I close it at this point?

 

[xoxokev]

just close it...