Why is Rainbow Cruise CP?

[Jezo]

Yes, I'm aware that this topic may have been done before, but I'm new to these boards and finding things a bit different to other forums. Plus there's the fear of people posting abuse toward me because I may have done something what they consider to be wrong. If I have done something wrong, apologies in advance.

Anywho, onto the actual topic: Rainbow Cruise is a CP stage and I really don't understand why. The main stage is probably just about worthy of being CP/Neutral, but it only lasts for about one minute or so before the scenery changes into what reminds me of the infamous Rumble Falls; A series of platforms to jump up as the screen scrolls upwards. Then, the screen moves down back to the main stage too quickly, in my opinion, that if anyone gets thrown backwards they'll surely die from the stage. When someone dies because of the stage that's where I draw the line.

What confuses me is that Bridge of Eldin is banned! I understand why it's not as high up as a neutral stage, but I'd say it was at least CP. I suppose it's similar to Rainbow Cruise in that you can throw people off the stage quite easily getting easy KOs, but at least people have a fairer chance because they don't have to go near the edge of the stage. In Rainbow Cruise you have no choice but to follow the stage. Bridge of Eldin also has that bomb in the centre of the stage which often kills if you're in its radius but that's easy to avoid. The hole it leaves also enhances characters who can meteor smash or gives advantage to characters with projectiles which is unfair, but overall, I'd say it's not as bad Rainbow Cruise. The hole in the middle is like Smashville's moving platform or Yoshi's Island's moving platform and shy guys.

Basically, in my opinion, Bridge of Eldin should be CP and Rainbow Cruise should be banned, or, if they're both considered equal in faults, perhaps both banned or both CP? Discuss.

 

[Life]

Eldin is banned due to walkoff edges. This breaks DDD, Climbers, etc. as it's quite easy for them to chaingrab you offstage. Whereas on non-walkoff stages (basically every legal stage except a couple arguable ones, and that first few seconds on Halberd) chaingrabs aren't as broken since you can recover once the opponent runs out of stage.

The moving-stage mechanic isn't as bad on RC because, other than that one section, it's really slow. And if you can't handle that, what, three seconds of fast downward movement, you're bad. (It's also possible to survive by getting on one of the falling blocks right before then and opening a hole that way, in a pinch.) RF also has a bottleneck at one point that apparently screws people over. And MK's uthrow. And a few other thing's I'm likely forgetting.

 

[Jezo]

Fair enough I suppose. The fast downward movement I'm usually fine with, but it's like I said if someone gets thrown in the other direction it's difficult to get down. I understand why Eldin's banned now, though, so thanks for informing me.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Sorry to mini-mod, but this belongs here.

 

[Kitamerby]

Rainbow Cruise, like Poke Floats (which was the best stage in Melee imo), is 100% predictable and will always follow the exact same path every single game. There is no "adaptability" at play, nor is there any real problem with moving stages by default. There is really just no reason that it should be banned at all outside of Meta Knight.

 

[UberMario]

Rainbow Cruise's scrolling is too slow to be an issue, you never have to worry about dying from being scrolled offscreen if you are in control of your character, and the part that moves down has a very large window of opportunity to get low enough not to be killed by the upper kill zone, you can use a Donut Block, the platforms you drop through, or just simply walk off the right side and let the scrolling and gravity do "the rest".

Rumble Falls moves far too fast for it to be competitve, since over half the time the players are more focoused on not being killed by the stage than their competitior(s). If it moved at about a half of the AVERAGE (not the fast speed which is even more ridiculous) scrolling speed, and had the spikes removed, it might have been at counterpiick status, but like Icicle Mountain in Melee before it, Rumble Falls is just meant to use the game mechanics in a different way than the norm, in this case as a stage of survival rather than outright skill.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Anywho, onto the actual topic: Rainbow Cruise is a CP stage and I really don't understand why. The main stage is probably just about worthy of being CP/Neutral, but it only lasts for about one minute or so before the scenery changes into what reminds me of the infamous Rumble Falls; A series of platforms to jump up as the screen scrolls upwards. Then, the screen moves down back to the main stage too quickly, in my opinion, that if anyone gets thrown backwards they'll surely die from the stage. When someone dies because of the stage that's where I draw the line.

Adapting to stages is a necessary skill in brawl. There is nothing random in the slightest about rainbow cruise. Whenever you die because of a stage element on that stage, one of the following two things happened:
-You were stupid
-Your opponent outplayed you

Rainbow Cruise, like Poke Floats (which was the best stage in Melee imo), is 100% predictable and will always follow the exact same path every single game. There is no "adaptability" at play, nor is there any real problem with moving stages by default. There is really just no reason that it should be banned at all outside of Meta Knight.

The reason FD is usually a counterpick, as opposed to a starter, is because it's a very polar stages-characters that do well on stages like it do EXTREMELY well on it, whereas the other end of the grounded-aerial spectrum fares horribly on it.

 

[Jezo]

I don't play Rainbow Cruise that often because of it's movement, but saying the reason I die because of a stage element on that stage is because I'm stupid is just stupid in itself. Some of the platforms disappear as it goes to the next, uh, section, let's say, and I suppose that's predictable, but nevertheless, a lot of chars are put at a disadvantage.

Another thing that annoyed me was that swinging platform about half way through that you can get to by going under it. I often have to jump up to it because the previous platform's disappeared only to find I only go through half of it because it's continuously moving and that falling to my death. It's difficult to fight when you have to concentrate on getting to the next part of the stage, in my opinion.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I don't play Rainbow Cruise that often because of it's movement, but saying the reason I die because of a stage element on that stage is because I'm stupid is just stupid in itself. Some of the platforms disappear as it goes to the next, uh, section, let's say, and I suppose that's predictable, but nevertheless, a lot of chars are put at a disadvantage.

No, you are stupid. It's up to you to know exactly how RC works, seeing as it's legal almost everywhere and completely non-random. If a platform disappears as you were trying to land on it and you die because of that, or when a platform materializes and ****s with your spacing somehow (???), it is entirely your fault.

Another thing that annoyed me was that swinging platform about half way through that you can get to by going under it. I often have to jump up to it because the previous platform's disappeared only to find I only go through half of it because it's continuously moving and that falling to my death. It's difficult to fight when you have to concentrate on getting to the next part of the stage, in my opinion.

Oh well. Your fault. You did not know how to fight on the stage and you died because of that. Might as well start *****ing that the ledges on FD gimped you, because it's about the same level of randomness and just as likely to happen if you're good on the stage. I find it ironic that your sig has one of the most basic tenants of fighting that scrubs miss, yet when you come to stages, you're scrubtastic to the extreme.

I find it funny that you say it's "difficult to fight". Ever considered that that's as much a part of the fight on RC as, say, Snake's explosives, or Diddy's bananas, or falco's constant lazer spam? The stage expects of you to know how to fight on it-it's an integral part of the fight. And there is not a single stage in the game that does not demand knowledge of how to fight on it. That's how the game works. To say it's difficult to fight when you have to concentrate on the hazards is just as justified as to say that it's difficult to fight unless you have those same hazards.

Also sorry if I sound like a prick, but I've been arguing this for so long that I really feel like just pointing to several threads that have, in the meanwhile, gone over 10-30 pages, and saying, "read up and come back once you have". I'm not that big of an *******. Honest.

 

[Life]

nevertheless, a lot of chars are put at a disadvantage.

Pst, that's the point of a counterpick

 

[moomoomamoo]

I understand that Rainbow Cruise's level design is short enough to memorize, slow enough to not be too distracting, and isn't 'random.' It is true that everyone should know what needs to be known about the playable stages and character advantages that follow the match-up difficulties of counterpicks such as RC, but RC is still too much for a lot of characters to handle. Outside of the boat and the first platform after the boat on RC, there are no ledges to grab. Characters like ganon that have an awkward up-B are forced to land with easy punishment. Also slow characters that cannot travel the platforms as quickly as some of the cast are almost forced to approach the whole match due to the other character (being a faster character) will always be ahead of them in RC's track. When characters are forced to approach and are forced in air (from trying to climb the platforms), their options tend to be very limited.

 

[Jezo]

Thank you, moomoomamoo, that's mainly what I was trying to get at, but I don't really know enough of the technical terms to put it across normally. Sorry. -_-''

@Budget Player Cadet_ Lol, it's ok, you don't have to apologize. XD But I will say this: Diddy's banana's or Snake's mines, at least someone has some form of control of them, whereas RC just follows a path already built in; You don't choose when a platform disappears/appears or whatever. Lastly, I'm not stupid. ¬_¬

 

[moomoomamoo]

overall, I understand the logic of a counterpick is to either pick a stage that works better for a pending selectable character, or to counterpick to a stage that works horrible for the predicted character being counterpicked against (or a mixture of both). But RC is just too easy to be a good stage and a horrible stage for another character. When stages can do both of these jobs so easily, it should be banned.

 

[ADHD]

Adapting to stages is a necessary skill in brawl. There is nothing random in the slightest about rainbow cruise. Whenever you die because of a stage element on that stage, one of the following two things happened:
-You were stupid
-Your opponent outplayed you

You mean, where every character in the game is inferior to to five on ******** stages so you select Metaknight--that kind of adapting? Because you probably haven't played on those "dumb" stages to claim you can simply adapt, when the counterpicking nature is too strong.

The reason FD is usually a counterpick, as opposed to a starter, is because it's a very polar stages-characters that do well on stages like it do EXTREMELY well on it, whereas the other end of the grounded-aerial spectrum fares horribly on it.

No, METAKNIGHT.. on Delfino is EXTREMELY well, campers on FD are well. You are clearly misguided. Also, every other character is perfectly fine on FD except in specific matchups, you really don't know what you're talking about here this time, I'm sorry. No one is able to bash FD with legitimate reasoning.

 

[AvaricePanda]

BPC, you`re being a huge prick right now. Consider the fact that maybe he`s kinda new to this game or at least is wondering a simple question before blasting him because he doesn`t understand why a stage is legal. He obviously doesn`t have that "conservative stagelist mindset" you so much detest because he wondered why Eldin wasn`t legal, so there`s no reason to get so riled up, curse, and call him an idiot.

seriously, how are people supposed to feel welcomed to this community if they`re insulted for ASKING A SIMPLE QUESTION?

Anyway, as already mentioned, the stage`s rotation is slow and never changes. While it gives some characters an advantage, it`s not to an extreme level, and counterpick stages should give advantages anyway. The concerns of dying at the falling or pendulum sections can be easily avoided with some practice.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You mean, where every character in the game is inferior to to five on ******** stages so you select Metaknight--that kind of adapting? Because you probably haven't played on those "dumb" stages to claim you can simply adapt, when the counterpicking nature is too strong.

"Too strong is objective". Where have we heard that one before...

No, METAKNIGHT.. on Delfino is EXTREMELY well, campers on FD are well. You are clearly misguided. Also, every other character is perfectly fine on FD except in specific matchups, you really don't know what you're talking about here this time, I'm sorry. No one is able to bash FD with legitimate reasoning.

Whoops, typo. Easy mistake to make.

You say Delfino is extremely good for MK. Funny, because it isn't. We're talking about METAKNIGHT here. Whenever you gauge how good a stage is for a character, you have to compare it to that character's overall performance. Is the advantage that MK gets from being on delfino incredible compared to the advantage that a character like ICs or Diddy gets from being on SV? Yeah. Is it incredible compared to the advantage that MK gets from almost any other stage in the game? Compare it to a relatively "fair" MK stage, like Halberd or CS. It's not that ridiculous.

And you still haven't refuted why MK gets more of a boost from RC/Brinstar than ICs get from FD. http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10803065&postcount=1918
I'll wait.

 

[moomoomamoo]

But being forced to approach all match isn't just a small advantage that practice can polish over. This is easy two stock advantage we're talking about. Not being able to land into a ledge from an up-B hurts a lot of characters. For most of the cast this normally means a free hit. It's not so much that it follows the idea of the 'counterpick' but it just does that job too well. It is too easy for this stage to be a winner's character's bad stage, and be a loser's counterpick character's good stage.

Another way to look at it is understanding a different point of view on why some stages are banned because of dedede/ice climbers (chain grab to death from walk off). Those stages are banned because it makes a lot of characters have too big of a disadvantage and gives a few characters too much advantage. By the idea of the 'counterpick' these types of stages are perfect as it meets the idea of making your opponent have a harder time fighting while you have an easier time, but it's just too much. RC is one of these stages. Sure it's not chain grab to death good, but it's very visible on how too many characters suffer and how a few characters can gain so much from RC.

BPC, AvaricePanda does bring up a good point about not losing your cool. =/ It is true that new people tend to not want to join the forums in fear of being chewed out. Looking at OP's post, it is a common fear of not being knowledgeable. It took me almost a year to finally speak up at the forums. It is true that these questions don't stop and it is because of how hard it is to dig up information. I believe the best way to solve this is to organize each stage with lists and examples (hopefully video) on why the stage is neutral/counter/banned. This way it is very easy to direct people to the right place so they can be educated easier about Brawl's competitive gameplay.

 

[ADHD]

You say Delfino is extremely good for MK. Funny, because it isn't. We're talking about METAKNIGHT here. Whenever you gauge how good a stage is for a character, you have to compare it to that character's overall performance. Is the advantage that MK gets from being on delfino incredible compared to the advantage that a character like ICs or Diddy gets from being on SV? Yeah. Is it incredible compared to the advantage that MK gets from almost any other stage in the game? Compare it to a relatively "fair" MK stage, like Halberd or CS. It's not that ridiculous.

Metaknight can repeatedly shark under the stage throughout half of the stage's lifespan, and only two characters have options beyond retreat and try to wait it out (lucario can dair but risky, MK can obv up B and more). Honestly, that would be game-breaking if it weren't for the other transitions to temporarily alleviate the problem. Diddy, sadly cannot compete with anything of the sort on smashville, for your example.

And you still haven't refuted why MK gets more of a boost from RC/Brinstar than ICs get from FD. http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10803065&postcount=1918
I'll wait.

I understand what you're saying, that because both are strong on these stages respectively and both are "equally as bad," but you fail to see out of theory and in actuality what can happen in-game, so let me start.

Ice Climbers on FD, have no option but to desync and running shield against projectile campers on FD due to the elongated landscape, putting them at an instant disadvantage for anyone that can exploit them. Pit, ROB, Toon Link, Diddy Kong, Falco, Snake, Lucas, etc. all are capable of forcing approaches then working from there. Even so, as someone with a weaker projectile or no projectile, FD is do-able unless the matchup is terribly against you.

Now onto MK. Rainbow Cruise allows all matchups to combat him on the ship, and he knows this (O've had MK plank and scrooge upon the ship until the other more favorable transition). Now, during the second transition moving upwards to the pendelum, characters who rely on ledges to recover are instantly placed in a very, very bad position. Even if not, no one except Metaknight can compete with his aerial game, in an area where aerials are the strong-suit at the time. The area with land proceeding the pendelum is also somewhat reasonable for Metaknight to be combatted, and he knows this as well--as many have air camped because this section is great and spacious for it. After that, is the ship. The cycle repeats. The point is, Metaknight can air camp and bide his time until you are obviously disadvantaged. Ice Climbers have no such ability upon FD, and are moreso prone to be camped and forced into disadvantaged positions.

Brinstar? The same scrooging situation as Delfino, except this time the lava forces him to pop up. Characters that need ground to defeat Metaknight (basically everyone) are already offset because of the uneven terrain and spongy obstacle in the center. So, when the lava rises (or acid,w/e) the ground disappears and one is forced to the air, where Metaknight is excels beond all others.

I hope that clears things up..

 

[ADHD]

----delete-----

 

[Jezo]

Wow, heated debate. O_O

For the record, I do consider myself pretty good at the game (not saying I'm elite or anything, I'm probably crap compared to most of you guys), even though I've never really had a chance to enter any tournaments or stuff like that. I have a little bit of knowledge on most of the game, just not quite to most people's standards on here. I had a feeling this would happen though; A lot of the people on here just never accept they're wrong most of the time, and it's quite infuriating to say the least. Of course, none of my arguments so far have been totally correct, however I do sense a bit of narcissism amongst these replies. >.>

 

[ADHD]

Wow, heated debate. O_O

For the record, I do consider myself pretty good at the game (not saying I'm elite or anything, I'm probably crap compared to most of you guys), even though I've never really had a chance to enter any tournaments or stuff like that. I have a little bit of knowledge on most of the game, just not quite to most people's standards on here. I had a feeling this would happen though; A lot of the people on here just never accept they're wrong most of the time, and it's quite infuriating to say the least. Of course, none of my arguments so far have been totally correct, however I do sense a bit of narcissism amongst these replies. >.>

Only BPC, Jack Keiser, and most Backroomers with bad ideas who support them til death.. stay away from them.. they're all extremists who are generally bad at the game.

Also, you're probably better than you think.. I remember I thought I'd suck and the competition would be so high but I got 13th out of like 70 at my first terny ^_^

 

[TyrannoDuck]

Any stage that anyone has every lost on is banned.

 

[SMAAAASH!]

No, you are stupid.


Also sorry if I sound like a prick, but I've been arguing this for so long that I really feel like just pointing to several threads that have, in the meanwhile, gone over 10-30 pages, and saying, "read up and come back once you have". I'm not that big of an *******. Honest.

You can avoid coming off as an uppity prick by not calling someone stupid. Rest of your post was fine cause it was a legitimate explanation. Calling someone stupid had no place in your post and was a prick move.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Jezo: welcome to the forums. You will find pretty quickly (or rather you already have) that Smashboards commonly debates just about every nuance of possible rules, and the rules that do exist are often still disagreed upon/the reasoning for things happening is quite varied.

Many people here like to debate these things, so even if it seems tense realize that many of us know each other and see each other in person at tournaments. Some of my oldest friends are Smash players that I see only every few months. My point is that what happens on the boards usually stays on the boards (usually) and that disagreements on rule philosophy typically don't boil over into people disliking each other.

 

[evileric]

you might be right

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

<stuff I already know>

You made this long extensive write-up, and yet somehow failed to see what you were responding to. I know MK gains options from stages, and I know that the best the ICs can hope for is "oh god please don't let this stage **** us up". That's why I chose this example! Now you may be wondering, "how is this fair". Well, how is it fair that MK goes 55-45 or better with every member of the cast? How is it fair that almost everything ganon does can be spotdodged or powershielded on reaction? How is it fair that we allow counterpicks at all?
The fact is, some characters are better than others in the methods they adapt to stages. Metaknight loves stages he and his opponent both have to adapt to, because he's so **** good at it! No one is better! Should we nerf him by ensuring that his best stages are unavailable? Probably not-he's not proven to be an issue yet.

And let's take this example. Ganondorf is obviously a ****ty character. He becomes less ****ty on Brinstar and Norfair (and probably a few other of the "crazy" counterpick stages); these stages are very good for him mostly because his largest disadvantage (completely unable to force any approach, unable to approach) is slightly mitigated by the hazards and lava-most opponents will sooner or later have to come into reach (and because he can ganoncide without dying on norfair). So he's a ****ty char which is a lot less ****ty on some stages. On almost any normal stage, he's absolutely horrendous. But on this one, he's decent. He gets an obscene boost through the stage!

Now let's compare to the ICs, ignoring any bias regarding "flat with no hazards is more fair". ICs are obviously a mediocre character. They become less mediocre on Smashville and FD (and battlefield to an extent). These stages are very good for them because their largest weakness (on most stages) are gone-extensive platforms, hazards, uneven ground; anything that ****s with their grabbing, chaingrabbing, and the like. So it's a mediocre character that's great on certain stages. They get an obscene boost through the stage, because the stage does not interrupt them! Yes, a stage not doing anything obstructive is an important quality of the stage! It's not a lack of a quality. It's a quality in and of itself.
Now we have a character who is average on most stages, but incredible on certain stages. Hmm, where have we heard this before... Ganon, G&W, Falco, Diddy... All in the same boat.

I honestly do count FD as a bad MK stage. Not a "neutral" MK stage. A BAD MK stage.

Wow, heated debate. O_O

For the record, I do consider myself pretty good at the game (not saying I'm elite or anything, I'm probably crap compared to most of you guys), even though I've never really had a chance to enter any tournaments or stuff like that. I have a little bit of knowledge on most of the game, just not quite to most people's standards on here. I had a feeling this would happen though; A lot of the people on here just never accept they're wrong most of the time, and it's quite infuriating to say the least. Of course, none of my arguments so far have been totally correct, however I do sense a bit of narcissism amongst these replies. >.>

Expect a lot of this. 2008-2009 was "should metaknight be legal"; 2010 is shaping up to be "the year of the stages".

Only BPC, Jack Keiser, and most Backroomers with bad ideas who support them til death.. stay away from them.. they're all extremists who are generally bad at the game.

Yes, because AZ and OS are not top players. Because MLG is not a massive, well-organized national. Because you are clearly so completely pure and beyond any personal bias. Because you're offering very... convincing arguments. Because you're not going against almost every basic tenant of video game balancing. Saying "I'm good so I'm right" is just ****ing stupid.
If I want to know something about Diddy, I'll ask you, because you are clearly the best diddy player.
If I want to know something about stages, I will ask people who actually know what they are talking about, not some idiot who thinks brinstar is random, RC is broken, Pictochat is more random than Yoshi's Island to SUCH A SERIOUS EXTENT, YI(M) and PS2 belong banned (with no justification other than "gay stages"), whose scrubby region bans any stage they just don't like, and who honestly thinks that FD is the most fair stage.

EDIT: nvm, I'm wrong on that last bit

 

[AlphaZealot]

My first tournament 2 weeks after the game come out I got 33rd out of like 70 people (lost to guys who bought Japanese wii's/Brawl 2 months early ). Didn't enter another tournament again until about 7 months later, where I got 3rd out of 60 people. Online play is all I did in the months before that and it is all you need to get decently good, and it's exactly what ADHD did as well. He is not an outlier for anyone who achieved a high level of online play before going to offline tournaments.

 

[Jack Kieser]

ADHD, who's this "Jack Keiser" guy you're intent on badmouthing in threads he hasn't even posted in? I namesearched, and there's no "Jack Keiser" on SWF. I think you're losing it.

 

[Jigglymaster]

My first tournament 2 weeks after the game come out I got 33rd out of like 70 people (lost to guys who bought Japanese wii's/Brawl 2 months early ). Didn't enter another tournament again until about 7 months later, where I got 3rd out of 60 people. Online play is all I did in the months before that and it is all you need to get decently good, and it's exactly what ADHD did as well. He is not an outlier for anyone who achieved a high level of online play before going to offline tournaments.

Yeah going to tournaments is defiantly the best way to get better at this game. I've tried training many of my friends all of which have never been able get to a competitive level at this game. Though the problem was is that they never went to any tournaments. However there is a rare chance that you could just have the talent for this game already and just use WiFi instead.

 

[Joe_Cool]

Yeah I've always wondered this. But I use this stage as CP a lot since I use GW a lot.

 

[TheOriginalSmasher]

Because the BBR loves MK, and hates heavy characters.

 

[-LzR-]

What does weight have to do with RC? Being heavy is always better.

 

[DMG]

DK is heavy and lots of people CG him for Lulz

Why is RC a CP? Because it would be dumb to have this as a neutral. And it's borderline acceptable.

 

[-LzR-]

Dk isn't weak to CG because he is heavy. It's because he is huge and I think he falls fast.

 

[etecoon]

rainbow cruise for neutral

 

[Reducas]

idk maybe it's just me but rainbow cruise is only a cp for mk,pit,kirby,peach and jigglypuff because people who main them always go there. in my opinion i wish they'd keep peach castle because that board is fun in melee.

 

[PurpleTop]

IMO RC is the only moving stage that is plausible. It moves very slowly and has some easy transitions. It is rather hard to die due to the stage on this level. Eldin can call for a very biased game, primarily those with CG's and spikes.

 

[Reducas]

hmm so why isn't mario bros stage a cp?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

hmm so why isn't mario bros stage a cp?

Good question. Has it ever actually been looked into? Like, is gameplay broken and non-competitive (not non-"normal", non-competitive) on it?

 

[Flashing]

Good question. Has it ever actually been looked into? Like, is gameplay broken and non-competitive (not non-"normal", non-competitive) on it?

Wait isn't it because there is a permanent walkoff? I mean RC doesn't because of the ship and plus there's a lot of platforms to out maneuver CGers. Mario Bros has a constant walkoff and one zone that CGers need to control in order for insta win.