Why is the Ice Climber matchup so bad for Roy?

[kingPiano]

Marth has a much more favorable matchup, I'm guessing just from the sheer ability to combo, juggle and KO more efficiently.

Does Roy have some terrible disadvantage that I'm not aware of that makes him so much worse against ICs (are there some guaranteed combos on him or something?). He still has his huge sword hitboxes and D-tilt. He can still grab and throw to separate and down smash then follow up. He's still got the better up smash and better DED....I don't seem to have any trouble with the local ICs.

60:40 to 10:90 seems like a ridiculous deficit between the two.

 

[darkoblivion12]

Sopo can chain grab you. You have no moves that will separate them. With Marth dd dtilt is really good because it can separate. With Roy dd dtilt won't do anything because you're putting yourself in grab range.

The matchup is really bad until you find a way to separate them, then it's just bad. If the IC's plays right, you still won't be able to separate them though.

I do have some thoughts on the matchup, most notably that IC's have a crappy cc, which means DED spam all day.

 

[kingPiano]

Sopo can chain grab you. You have no moves that will separate them. With Marth dd dtilt is really good because it can separate. With Roy dd dtilt won't do anything because you're putting yourself in grab range.

The matchup is really bad until you find a way to separate them, then it's just bad. If the IC's plays right, you still won't be able to separate them though.

I do have some thoughts on the matchup, most notably that IC's have a crappy cc, which means DED spam all day.

Ah ok.

Well I guess I've just had different experiences because I find that one D tilt > F Smash sure seems to break them up rather fast...and Roy's D-tilt on it's own seems to break them up for me like 60% of the time since the weak spot can hit one and the strong the other if they coming toward you.

I guess I never really stress too much about separating them though, I just focus on killing Popo as fast as possible since Nana's AI is dumb. A jumping Flare Blade works really well as an approach since it hits lower than people expect and as you said and I said DED is a great tool (not quite sure I'd agree on bad CC as a disadvantage though since they can still easily combo DI out of it by holding toward you).

On Sopo I find his grab very easy to get out of even before a pummel, I seem to be able to do this consistently without any trouble. Does he alone have a really weak grab like Kirby?

 

[Vanitas]

Ah ok.

Well I guess I've just had different experiences because I find that one D tilt > F Smash sure seems to break them up rather fast...and Roy's D-tilt on it's own seems to break them up for me like 60% of the time since the weak spot can hit one and the strong the other if they coming toward you.

I guess I never really stress too much about separating them though, I just focus on killing Popo as fast as possible since Nana's AI is dumb. A jumping Blazer works really well as an approach since it hits lower than people expect and as you said and I said DED is a great tool (not quite sure I'd agree on bad CC as a disadvantage though since they can still easily combo DI out of it by holding toward you).

On Sopo I find his grab very easy to get out of even before a pummel, I seem to be able to do this consistently without any trouble. Does he alone have a really weak grab like Kirby?

Most Ice Climbers mains are aware that Roy has a bit more range so you can expect blizzards and ice blocks to control the ground pretty well to the point where you might not be able to land a strong hit Dtilt.
A jumping blazer is an awful approach as the risk-reward is not in your favour. If you miss, you face a lot of lag and are open for a sync'd grab, or in the worst case scenario, a wobble. Even if you do manage a hit, at early percents, Ice Climbers can wiggle out of tumble and Sopo could waveland from the hit and then dthrow chaingrab you until Nana resyncs and start a wobble from there.
As for the fact that you can get out of a pummel, you must be mashing out very well. Otherwise Sopo's grab game on Roy is pretty effective as their dthrow chaingrab can go up to mid-high percents.

 

[kingPiano]

Most Ice Climbers mains are aware that Roy has a bit more range so you can expect blizzards and ice blocks to control the ground pretty well to the point where you might not be able to land a strong hit Dtilt.
A jumping blazer is an awful approach as the risk-reward is not in your favour. If you miss, you face a lot of lag and are open for a sync'd grab, or in the worst case scenario, a wobble. Even if you do manage a hit, at early percents, Ice Climbers can wiggle out of tumble and Sopo could waveland from the hit and then dthrow chaingrab you until Nana resyncs and start a wobble from there.
As for the fact that you can get out of a pummel, you must be mashing out very well. Otherwise Sopo's grab game on Roy is pretty effective as their dthrow chaingrab can go up to mid-high percents.

I know this might seem like a non-point but who really cares about any chain grabs since ICs can wobble anyone to death. It's legal in almost all National and Regional tourneys.

So if this is the only real point doesn't everyone have a terrible matchup against ICs. Of course there are other factors but if the main reasoning is "well they can wobble you to death, so it's a bad matchup" that's everyone.

 

[Vanitas]

I know this might seem like a non-point but who really cares about any chain grabs since ICs can wobble anyone to death. It's legal in almost all National and Regional tourneys.

So if this is the only real point doesn't everyone have a terrible matchup against ICs. Of course there are other factors but if the main reasoning is "well they can wobble you to death, so it's a bad matchup" that's everyone.

The chaingrab is relevant in the fact that if you DO end up splitting them and Sopo gets his hands on you, he can continue his chaingrab on you until Nana resyncs with him. Sopo can't chaingrab any of the high tiers other than Sheik.

I was addressing the points above but there are a lot of characters with favourable matchups against Ice Climbers based on how well they can separate them or kill Nana or limit their options.

Peach for example, has probably the best matchup in the fact that she can kill Nana very safely. Ice Climbers in the current meta do not have an answer to FC Fair other than reading actions after her Fair or maybe outspacing it with a blizzard. Once she separates them, it is very easy to snipe Nana's jump when she's attempting to return. Due to their limitations in offstage options, Popo can't do much other than try to Up-B/Side-B her to safety. So here is the example of having a very safe way to kill Nana and having a very powerful neutral against them. Puff has some of the advantages Peach has in sniping Nana off stage but doesn't have that much of an advantageous neutral against the Ice Climbers.
The spacies can separate them easily with shines as they are relatively safe on shield when cancelled properly into other aerials.
Of course these aren't all the points, but few notable ones.

 

[kingPiano]

The chaingrab is relevant in the fact that if you DO end up splitting them and Sopo gets his hands on you, he can continue his chaingrab on you until Nana resyncs with him. Sopo can't chaingrab any of the high tiers other than Sheik.

I was addressing the points above but there are a lot of characters with favourable matchups against Ice Climbers based on how well they can separate them or kill Nana or limit their options.

Peach for example, has probably the best matchup in the fact that she can kill Nana very safely. Ice Climbers in the current meta do not have an answer to FC Fair other than reading actions after her Fair or maybe outspacing it with a blizzard. Once she separates them, it is very easy to snipe Nana's jump when she's attempting to return. Due to their limitations in offstage options, Popo can't do much other than try to Up-B/Side-B her to safety. So here is the example of having a very safe way to kill Nana and having a very powerful neutral against them. Puff has some of the advantages Peach has in sniping Nana off stage but doesn't have that much of an advantageous neutral against the Ice Climbers.
The spacies can separate them easily with shines as they are relatively safe on shield when cancelled properly into other aerials.
Of course these aren't all the points, but few notable ones.

Ah Ok. And earlier I accidentally said Blazer i meant Flare Blade...I always confuse the names, should just say the inputs instead.

So far I've been able to easily break out of SoPo's grab (even on the initial one), but that could just inexperienced players I'm against?
I was thinking SoPo's grab was weaker or something, is that totally false?

Perhaps there are not any really great ICs in my local area....