Why Isn't Corneria Banned

[illinialex24]

I have always wondered why Corneria is a recommended counterpick stage mainly because it has many reasons to be banned and many users have a general disgust towards it (I know the second is not bannable criteria but the first if good enough is and if it is on the border, the second should do it).

Here are my reasons why it should be banned:

1) It has a permanent wall. This allows for all sorts of D-tilt traps, infinite chain-grabs, I believe grab release chain-grabs and other really annoying mechanics.

2) It has a really really low ceiling which reminds me of the Flat Zone it is so easy to kill early. Although other stages like Rainbow Cruise have low ceilings, but this is a stable stage without higher platforms on Rainbow Cruise that cause the low ceiling.

3) It has planes that fly in and shoot people, which not only disrupt the game but cause fair amount of damage and are very random, which was unlike Mute City in Melee which is why it was fair game, but why Port Town Aero Drive is recommended banned.

4) It is a gunship, and if someone is recovering from below on the left and the guns go off, that is not a good sign anytime.

5) The right side has a very close edge, so you can die very early off the right side. This means that if you are down a stock on someone, they can camp there and wait for you to come down, rack up damage using the wall and then kill you very early.

I mean with all these attributes including very early kills, randomness, infinites, and other issues, why isn't it banned? I know a lot of leagues choose to deviate from SBR rules to make it banned, but I honestly have no idea why the SBR decides to have it still as a regular Counterpick. I think that it should be a Counterpick/Banned stage or just Banned.

Your thoughts?

 

[aeghrur]

The sbr list needs to be updated?

 

[illinialex24]

The sbr list needs to be updated?

I know but I don't think I am on the cutting edge with reasons most competent players can see. So I am wondering why it is still around? Unless there are hundreds of Snake's and G&W's in the SBR.

 

[kuenzel]

I agree with you, and I thought it WAS recommended banned. The SBR decided it CP?

 

[ndayday]

As a general stage, I actually like it but...

The low ceiling, which is so annoying with lighter characters, and the right side like you mentioned is an easy spot to get a kill in. Also, the right side encourages camping, and is hard to get to get to your opponent sometimes as they can just grab the wing and do a fast attack like ROB's Fair to knock you back, or even kill you of the top of the stage. (With ROB you could just Nair for an early kill) The Arwings almost always get a few extra percents on you, and that isn't particulary good since the low ceiling.

 

[illinialex24]

I agree with you, and I thought it WAS recommended banned. The SBR decided it CP?

According to their rules on August 9th 2008, it says here that it is recommended CP:
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Tournament_legal_(SSBB)

 

[HiddenBowser]

It should stay counterpickable.

1. Be careful down there, don't go by the wall, don't go down there if you're leading in %, don't get between a DDD and the wall, etc... If you have a projectile, plain out don't go down there. If you're playing against DDD, keep your distance and try to get on the outside or sit near the wall, poking him and then up b or jump to the fin for invincibility if he threatens you.

2. The low ceiling isn't really a good reason to ban it. Nobody has a broken, easy to land, one hit kill move because of it.

3. Planes don't even knock you away and generally don't hit people.

4. I've never seen someone hit by that.

5. If you're up a stock, don't go over there. If time runs out, then you win, so they have to come to you.

The stage is campy as all hell, but I don't think it should be banned.

 

[illinialex24]

It should stay counterpickable.

1. Be careful down there, don't go by the wall, don't go down there if you're leading in %, don't get between a DDD and the wall, etc...

2. The low ceiling isn't really a good reason to ban it. Nobody has a broken, easy to land, one hit kill move because of it.

3. Planes don't even knock you away and generally don't hit people.

4. I've never seen someone hit by that.

5. If you're up a stock, don't go over there. If time runs out, then you win, so they have to come to you.

The stage is campy as all hell, but I don't think it should be banned.

Right but if you go down at all, you have to go. And Snake's U-tilt is pretty much broken there, so is G&W's Up smash if he lands it (and it has super armor). I mean, you don't go there if you are leading in percentage, but if they get you first and they are King Dedede, or someone like that, you are screwed.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Because Ike needs another good CP stage besides Pirate Ship?

 

[Wildfire393]

1) This is your only valid point, and should be looked in to. However, the argument has been "in order to get your opponent in a position where you can infinite them, you have to put yourself right at the very edge of the stage. They're just as likely to kill you at a low percentage as you are to pull off an infinite"

2) The ceiling is higher than that of flat zone except on top of the fin. Additionally, it is not a walk-off stage like Flat Zone is, which is the real reason that it is banned. A single grab by DDD anywhere on flat zone equals a KO.

3) The planes do not cause very much damage (<15% per hit) and tend to only hit in specific areas. Additionally, they can never KO. The hazards in Port Town Aero Drive deal around 40% and additionally can KO at around 40%

4) The guns go off rarely and if someone is in a position to trigger them and hasn't recovered before they go off, odds are they were going to die off the bottom anyways. I'd say the instance of the Guns making a difference is maybe 1 in 100 games.

5) See the first point. You can't position yourself to take advantage of the close edge AND the infinite wall. If you position yourself to take advantage of one, it puts you in a position to have the other used against you.

 

[Shinigami Cooper]

The low ceiling is my big problem. Otherwise a very very low counterpick would be a good place for the stage to be put.

 

[illinialex24]

1) This is your only valid point, and should be looked in to. However, the argument has been "in order to get your opponent in a position where you can infinite them, you have to put yourself right at the very edge of the stage. They're just as likely to kill you at a low percentage as you are to pull off an infinite"

2) The ceiling is higher than that of flat zone except on top of the fin. Additionally, it is not a walk-off stage like Flat Zone is, which is the real reason that it is banned. A single grab by DDD anywhere on flat zone equals a KO.

3) The planes do not cause very much damage (<15% per hit) and tend to only hit in specific areas. Additionally, they can never KO. The hazards in Port Town Aero Drive deal around 40% and additionally can KO at around 40%

4) The guns go off rarely and if someone is in a position to trigger them and hasn't recovered before they go off, odds are they were going to die off the bottom anyways. I'd say the instance of the Guns making a difference is maybe 1 in 100 games.

5) See the first point. You can't position yourself to take advantage of the close edge AND the infinite wall. If you position yourself to take advantage of one, it puts you in a position to have the other used against you.

I bring point 5 there to aid point 1 saying that there is no safe spot on the bottom part of the stage. I know it is not a walkoff. And at the top of the fin, that is still insanely low and you can camp there. I know the planes don't do crazy amounts or as much as Port Town Aero Drive in terms of chaos, but they can disrupt gameplay and really screw around. And if someone like Kirby is trying to recover, they should be able to get up. I can understand if its Link and they can't get up, but someone who has no option like Snake and the gun goes off is not fair.

 

[Eddie G]

I'm sort of on the fence with this. It does have a lot of silly things to deal with, but the Arwings aren't really as much of an annoyance as they were in Melee. I can understand why you're concerned with the excessive camping and infinite possibilities on the right side.

I would personally keep it as a legal counterpick myself. I'm not the pro-ban or anti-ban MK side, but I believe that he does have a lot of advantages over a good portion of the cast and this stage can be a good choice for them against him other than Green Greens. ^.^

 

[HiddenBowser]

Regarding #1 *I added this into my edit, but people posted before that, so I'm reposting it*:

If you have a projectile, plain out don't go down there. If you're playing against DDD, keep your distance and try to get on the outside or sit near the wall, poking him and then up b or jump to the fin for invincibility if he threatens you.

*New stuff*

DDD can't infinite everyone there and tons of characters have "infinites" but you can generally DI out or tech eventually... But it's really freaking hard to infinite someone who is actively trying not to get infinited and often times if someone tries to get you into an infinite, they put themselves into a bad position and can get infinited because of it... A good player should be able to avoid it.

 

[illinialex24]

I'm sort of on the fence with this. It does have a lot of silly things to deal with, but the Arwings aren't really as much of an annoyance as they were in Melee. I can understand why you're concerned with the excessive camping and infinite possibilities on the right side.

I would personally keep it as a legal counterpick myself. I'm not the pro-ban or anti-ban MK side, but I believe that he does have a lot of advantages over a good portion of the cast and this stage can be a good choice for them against him other than Green Greens. ^.^

Yeah but just because it helps counter a broken character doesn't mean its a fair stage. Infinites, randomness, and an essentially dangerous enclave that you must go to if you are losing really is unfair.

 

[ndayday]

2. The low ceiling isn't really a good reason to ban it. Nobody has a broken, easy to land, one hit kill move because of it.

Ganon: Dair
Ness: U-throw
Snake: Utilt
Kirby, MetaKnight: U-throw

Just a few attacks that are relatively easy to hit with...and could kill you super easy, especially right on/next to the wing.

Still though, it should be a counterpick, the only real bad thing about it is the campy right side and possibly the low ceiling if you don't know how to get away from it.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

It should be banned.

 

[illinialex24]

Regarding #1 *I added this into my edit, but people posted before that, so I'm reposting it*:

If you have a projectile, plain out don't go down there. If you're playing against DDD, keep your distance and try to get on the outside or sit near the wall, poking him and then up b or jump to the fin for invincibility if he threatens you.

*New stuff*

DDD can't infinite everyone there and tons of characters have "infinites" but you can generally DI out or tech eventually... But it's really freaking hard to infinite someone who is actively trying not to get infinited and often times if someone tries to get you into an infinite, they put themselves into a bad position and can get infinited because of it... A good player should be able to avoid it.

Right but when you can, thats a lot of damage. And I mean, the bottom really isn't safe anywhere. Easy KO on the side and a trap on the wall. And with his grab range, there isn't much to do.

Ganon: Dair
Ness: U-throw
Snake: Utilt
Kirby, MetaKnight: U-throw

Just a few attacks that are relatively easy to hit with...and could kill you super easy, especially right on/next to the wing.

Still though, it should be a counterpick, the only real bad thing about it is the campy right side and possibly the low ceiling if you don't know how to get away from it.

Forgot G&W U-smash with its super armor.

 

[c0nd0r]

it should at least be moved to counterpick/ban, but isn't this the wrong forum?

 

[Wildfire393]

Yeah but just because it helps counter a broken character doesn't mean its a fair stage. Infinites, randomness, and an essentially dangerous enclave that you must go to if you are losing really is unfair.

The "Randomness" is about on par with the randomness in MANY legitimate counterpick stages, including things like Halberd (which I actually have on as a "neutral" at home).

The infinite-possibility is countered by the "dangerously close edge". If you try to abuse one, you WILL get the other used against you by a good player. If you're down, the best bet is NOT to try and abuse it and just play better, otherwise you'll end up more down as you suffer an early death/infinite while already being down.

 

[Eddie G]

Yeah but just because it helps counter a broken character doesn't mean its a fair stage. Infinites, randomness, and an essentially dangerous enclave that you must go to if you are losing really is unfair.

It was just my personal reason. You did ask for our thoughts, I believe.

 

[illinialex24]

The "Randomness" is about on par with the randomness in MANY legitimate counterpick stages, including things like Halberd (which I actually have on as a "neutral" at home).

The infinite-possibility is countered by the "dangerously close edge". If you try to abuse one, you WILL get the other used against you by a good player. If you're down, the best bet is NOT to try and abuse it and just play better, otherwise you'll end up more down as you suffer an early death/infinite while already being down.

Right but with all the other stuff, its just another strike on it.

 

[Eddie G]

Regarding #1 *I added this into my edit, but people posted before that, so I'm reposting it*:

If you have a projectile, plain out don't go down there. If you're playing against DDD, keep your distance and try to get on the outside or sit near the wall, poking him and then up b or jump to the fin for invincibility if he threatens you.

*New stuff*

DDD can't infinite everyone there and tons of characters have "infinites" but you can generally DI out or tech eventually... But it's really freaking hard to infinite someone who is actively trying not to get infinited and often times if someone tries to get you into an infinite, they put themselves into a bad position and can get infinited because of it... A good player should be able to avoid it.

Well stated. I agree with you.

 

[illinialex24]

It was just my personal reason. You did ask for our thoughts, I believe.

Yes I did. I was just debating your idea, not attacking it.

 

[Mew2King]

lol @ anyone trying to justify corneria being on

the stage is absolutely horrible in both smash games, and extremely campy. For competitive purposes, it is far too campy, cheap, and gay to be allowed in tourney

current ruleset is flawed basically

 

[illinialex24]

It was just my personal reason. You did ask for our thoughts, I believe.

lol @ anyone trying to justify corneria being on

the stage is absolutely horrible in both smash games, and extremely campy. For competitive purposes, it is far too campy, cheap, and gay to be allowed in tourney

current ruleset is flawed basically

Thank you, and I am glad you feel the same way. It has way too many flaws imo to be allowed.

 

[Eddie G]

Yes I did. I was just debating your idea, not attacking it.

Understood. My reasons remain as they are though. ^.^

There are a lot of silly things to deal with, but as Bowyer pointed out, they can usually be avoided by good players or even used in their favor. That's why some stages are counterpicks, rather than neutral or banned. They have hazards to deal with, but they are not completely impossible to play a competitive match on. They're still around the range of "manageable".

 

[Eddie G]

lol @ anyone trying to justify corneria being on

the stage is absolutely horrible in both smash games, and extremely campy. For competitive purposes, it is far too campy, cheap, and gay to be allowed in tourney

current ruleset is flawed basically

1. It's not THAT bad, dude. It's still manageable.

2. I'm not a whiner toward or about MK, but should the word "cheap" really be blurted out from a MK main? Even if it is you?

 

[Revven]

Corneria is okay for friendlies, but in a tourney, I agree that it shouldn't be allowed. It's a great stage for a LOT of characters, but, encourages camping by the right side waiting to do an infinite (which is easily set-up by mostly any character if the opponent doesn't DI right depending on the infinite). It doesn't help that the stage is small as heck and the walls on the left and right sides of the stage are ridiculously close to the ship making it easy to kill people at 70% to 95% depending on the character's weight.

The low ceiling isn't enough either...

 

[HeroMystic]

Because Ike needs another good CP stage besides Pirate Ship?

^This.

Although I'm thinking of banning it once I start tournaments, for reasons stated here. The wall infinites are a bit much.

 

[Devil Zars]

either we consider that this stage has its flaws, but is also a esenario somewhat variable, why? because airwings attack aleatoriacamente to the field, but all this is right, not a lifetime are going to want to fight on platforms where is
melee, so it is counterpick, although if it is but a platform-shaped vessel and other ships firing XD.

I know that my English is terrible, but I am not as good combining prayers.

 

[Eddie G]

Corneria is okay for friendlies, but in a tourney, I agree that it shouldn't be allowed. It's a great stage for a LOT of characters, but, encourages camping by the right side waiting to do an infinite (which is easily set-up by mostly any character if the opponent doesn't DI right depending on the infinite). It doesn't help that the stage is small as heck and the walls on the left and right sides of the stage are ridiculously close to the ship making it easy to kill people at 70% to 95% depending on the character's weight.

The low ceiling isn't enough either...

So close walls, easier kills due to close walls and a lower ceiling, and possible chances for infinites are good reasons to ban the stage? I think not. Counterpick is a perfect status for this stage.

 

[Boxob.]

Sonic can kill people at reasonable percentages on this stage, you know something's wrong with it.

 

[Eaode]

but, encourages camping by the right side waiting to do an infinite (which is easily set-up by mostly any character if the opponent doesn't DI right depending on the infinite).

Words underlined for lol

EDIT: Oh **** I forgot.

:mewtwo:

 

[HeroMystic]

So close walls, easier kills due to close walls and a lower ceiling, and possible chances for infinites are good reasons to ban the stage? I think not. Counterpick is a perfect status for this stage.

I've only thought about banning this because of the heavy camping that allows for the wall infintes at the lower fin. The low percent kills are a very sad excuse.

If it was just camping at one side, I'd keep it without a doubt, but the infinites makes me consider it.

 

[ndayday]

Actually, IT IS bad. =)

Look at all the negatives:

Low ceiling
Campy
Disruptive Arwings
CG's et cetera on the right side ---> easy kill
Low chance, but still a chance, of getting OHKO'd by the main laser on the left side

Positives:

Any thing supporting it so far has been advice on how to try not to get CG'd or avoiding spam, or just saying no and not backing up your answer. What is one thing that makes the stage tournament playable?

And how is a low celing a bad excuse? Something like Kirby's U-throw can kill very early on/next to the fin, whereas on a stage like FD it would take over 130% to kill, and that's if it's stale. >__> (Not EXACT percentages, around that area)

 

[HeroMystic]

The Low ceiling is a sad excuse and is actually a positive to characters.
Disruptive Arwings is slightly more valid, but not enough.
The Main laser is your own fault.

Campy alone doesn't make it bannable, but as said before, since you camp there for infinites, that makes campy characters like ROB really powerful on this stage, and that's the real issue here.

 

[ndayday]

The Low ceiling is a sad excuse and is actually a positive to characters.
Disruptive Arwings is slightly more valid, but not enough.
The Main laser is your own fault.

Campy alone doesn't make it bannable, but as said before, since you camp there for infinites, that makes campy characters like ROB really powerful on this stage, and that's the real issue here.

How is the ceiling a sad excuse? It's probably the 2nd or 3rd biggest thing wrong with the stage, camping and maybe infinites above it.

 

[Eddie G]

I've only thought about banning this because of the heavy camping that allows for the wall infintes at the lower fin. The low percent kills are a very sad excuse.

If it was just camping at one side, I'd keep it without a doubt, but the infinites makes me consider it.

I see, well that sounds pretty fair. In all honesty, I'm all for just leaving things up to the TO's of tournaments. If they want it, allow it; if they don't, ban it. It's not that bad of a stage, but I can understand why it would frustrate some people.

Actually, IT IS bad. =)

Look at all the negatives:

Low ceiling
Campy
Disruptive Arwings
CG's et cetera on the right side ---> easy kill
Low chance, but still a chance, of getting OHKO'd by the main laser on the left side

Positives:

Any thing supporting it so far has been advice on how to try not to get CG'd or avoiding spam, or just saying no and not backing up your answer. What is one thing that makes the stage tournament playable?

1. A low ceiling is not ban-worthy. It just calls for more careful play against some matchups (snake, MK, Kirby, etc.).

2. Campy? Ok, and?

3. Disruptive Arwings? No sir, the Arwings in Melee were disruptive. These...not so much. The damage isn't too bad, and they don't really budge your character all that much as opposed to a full blown knock away from the Melee Arwings.

4. Again, these possible infinites just call for more careful play from both players. If they mess up enough to get caught, then by all means, infinite them for it.

5. Main laser? That hazard is a joke compared to some other counterpick stages.

The stage is just playable, perhaps not by your standards, but it is by all means a playable stage. What sort of proof are you demanding anyway?

 

[illinialex24]

The Low ceiling is a sad excuse and is actually a positive to characters.
Disruptive Arwings is slightly more valid, but not enough.
The Main laser is your own fault.

Campy alone doesn't make it bannable, but as said before, since you camp there for infinites, that makes campy characters like ROB really powerful on this stage, and that's the real issue here.

Yeah it does. This low should be bannable.