Sai_
Smash Apprentice
I just find it rather annoying that his down B is very short, so edgeguarding large hit boxes like Squirte's up B is more annoying with Roy than with Marth. I don't see why his down B can't be the same length as Marth or Ike's.
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Why isn't Roy's down B as long as Marth's or Ike's in terms of time?
- Thread starter Sai_
- Start date
RascalTheCharizard
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2012
- Messages
- 987
I assumed it's because Roy's Counter is supposed to be a more "high risk, high reward" version of Marth's one. After all, its strength is relative to the attack it parries, thus making it a well timed finisher to beat out your opponent's strongest attacks if you can pull it off juuuuuust right. That's just my speculation, though. I can't speak on behalf of the P:M devs.
Sai_
Smash Apprentice
All this time I've been playing Roy and I've never learned that his down B is relative to the opponents' attack power. It's probably most logical to assume it has a short frame span because of this then.
Yeah, hitting with Roy's counter does (I'm pretty sure) 1.5x the damage to the opponent, which also is at least partially why it hits back so hard.
tripwire
Smash Journeyman
Roys counter is like a kill move compared to Marths which im pretty sure only does 7% everytime. The short time on it seems more like a balancing trait.
furyberserk
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2007
- Messages
- 89
Roy still kinda sucks because of his options.
His counter also really sucks too.
I don't know if they changed Marth's counters aspects from brawl, but they were:
Marth = 1.2x Damage and knockback
Ike = 1.3x Damage and knockback (brawl)
Roy - 1.5x Damage and knockback
Roy's counters are only good on smashes, but no one smashes out of combos on him, and his hitstun I think is still the longest.
I've also noticed, Marth and Ike can counter slightly before their "ching" sound, but roy can't.
His counter also really sucks too.
I don't know if they changed Marth's counters aspects from brawl, but they were:
Marth = 1.2x Damage and knockback
Ike = 1.3x Damage and knockback (brawl)
Roy - 1.5x Damage and knockback
Roy's counters are only good on smashes, but no one smashes out of combos on him, and his hitstun I think is still the longest.
I've also noticed, Marth and Ike can counter slightly before their "ching" sound, but roy can't.
Gamegenie222
Space Pheasant Dragon Tactician
I thought Marth's counter was from frame 4 or was that changed from brawl. Also Roy's counter is slower but it doesn't mean it's bad I use it for edgeguarding against Spacies and other recoveries on certain characters such as other Roy's on stages like BF.
I was referencing Marth's melee frame data on that one. Marth is designed to be as much like his melee counter part as possible so that's why I used the melee frame data.
Also, Sai, your thread title and the example you use aren't addressing the same issue and is a little confusing. Thread title asks about how long the active counter frames are, but as the example, you talk about how hard it is to counter attacks with large hitboxes. You're comparing time vs range there. Do you mean to ask about one or both?
Also, Sai, your thread title and the example you use aren't addressing the same issue and is a little confusing. Thread title asks about how long the active counter frames are, but as the example, you talk about how hard it is to counter attacks with large hitboxes. You're comparing time vs range there. Do you mean to ask about one or both?
QWA
Smash Apprentice
It's short for a reason. You've got that 1.5X multiplier going for you. Marth's has setknockback, and Ike's counter's damage is based on spacing (0.7X for tip, 1.3x [ I think] for the middle, and 1.5x for the hilt.). I will admit that Ike's counter annoys me in that it sort of gets the best of both worlds, but Roy's is fine. You should use it sparingly, and only when you're certain it will hit. Just get the timing down.
...Or you could just forward smash/ flare blade for edge-guarding, lol.
...Or you could just forward smash/ flare blade for edge-guarding, lol.
Azureflames
Smash Apprentice
I'd gladly take a weaker multiplier for a more useful time window on downB. Personally i dont think theres ever a time where taking the risk is worth the reward. It's just never felt worth using in any situation in comparison to marth/ike
G13_Flux
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
- Messages
- 1,076
roys counter is amazing for edgeguarding. since its so powerful, many characters will die even at just low to mid percents after getting a missed sweetspot countered. honestly, i think roys counter sees more use for this reason. since its punishable, using it offensively while the opponent is in a bad position is going to net you more reward than trying to use it defensively (which the opponent can easily catch on to and punish). even with marths quicker counter, i feel that the defensive situations where marths counter is most useful are high risk situations for him, whereas when roys using it more offensively, its actually relatively low risk for him to throw one out (the opponent is in the process of recovering and cant punish it that effectively).
QWA
Smash Apprentice
Much to learn, you still have.
Shokio
Netplay 4 Days
Higher damage = shorter window. I say it's a perfectly fine balancing trait. Though I will agree that the actual active frames should come out just as fast as the others. Too many times my Roy actually does the counter animation but I get it anyway. His counter has the best multiplier and knockback, but also the shortest duration - the balancing is always there with that. Don't know why it has to come out slower as well.
Fast execution but extremely short duration seems perfectly balanced to me.
Fast execution but extremely short duration seems perfectly balanced to me.
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The answer is that it's shorter duration because it's a 1.5x multiplier. If you counter a hit of about 7.5% damage then you deal more damage than Ike or Marth's counter.
It's basically a risk/reward thing.
It's 1.3x all around.
Azureflames
Smash Apprentice
You definitely make an interesting point. Guess i forgot about countering recovery options. Also i never use it offensively like you say, maybe thats the problem. I've always used it on the defense apparently being predictable. My friends been playing a lot of falcon/marth so ive been going for other edgeguarding strategies since he's pretty good at sweetspotting or at least coming in low enough to not get trigger counter. Ill Definitely try mixing it up and try throwing a counter here and there offensively, good tip =)
Apparently i do. =\ In my personal experiences i've just never been good at utilizing it against the friend i play with. It's balanced for sure though for the knockback and the damage multiplier, just irritating to take the chance and wiff counter only to get caught and comboed for 30%
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QWA
Smash Apprentice
Not it's not. The multiplier changes depending on where you hit with Ragnell.
QWA
Smash Apprentice
This requires extensive testing requiring Falcon Punches in training mode, because this is not a reliable source: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Ike_(PM)
I don't know what you're talking about anymore, but I've never been able to trigger the supposed 0.7x hit, therefore I believe it doesn't exist.
Good day friends.
Good day friends.
QWA
Smash Apprentice
I'm getting variations depending on where I hit. The percent is either 29% on a countered Falcon Punch, or 35% (refreshing training mode for each test, of course).
Edit:
This is not the place for discussing Ike, as a result, I shall talk about Roy. Hitting with Roy's up smash spike is the most fun thing ever.
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THAT'S BECAUSE YOU'RE COUNTERING THE SOURSPOT.
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