Why isnt samus heavier...

[Litt]

In melee samus can and does live to 170+ most of the time with good DI, but im PM it seems she is in the middle of the pack for weight and dies around 110 now... what made her special in melee was that she could live longer than everyone else and take a beating... now she cant take a beating, and doesnt live as long as most character, on top of almost every other character being able to make it back to the stage now... This is seriously something that needs to be fixed because she just cant compete at the top level anymore... give our bitty some twinkies cuz she needs more weight....

 

[DJ _ICE]

Here's a weight list for Project M characters. Smashwiki says that Samus is 110 in melee and here she is also 110 so she hasn't had her weight changed. For her dieing earlier I'd chalk that up to characters having stronger moves in project m. Also she dies pretty early off the top as opposed to to the sides.

 

[Litt]

Its just what made her special in melee was her recovery, and now almost every character has that attribute... she dies super early... so either nerf the rest of the casts moveset, or make samus even heavier...

 

[ph00tbag]

What really happened is more characters have off the top KO moves. Samus has always died very early off the top because of her floatiness, but fewer characters were really as effective at abusing that property. Now it's more of a problem for her because more characters are good at upwards KOs.

 

[Litt]

I understand that ph00t, my post was more of a joke saying, what they did to samus (give her an ice moveset), was not enough to allow her to compete with the rest of the cast.

 

[CyberMario]

Does fast falling have nothing to do with weight? What about normal falling speed? I'm thoroughly confused by the weight list.

 

[Fortress]

Does fast falling have nothing to do with weight? What about normal falling speed? I'm thoroughly confused by the weight list.

No, they're two entirely different properties.

Also, the metagame hasn't nearly developed enough for you to know just how well Samus will perform. She still has a stellar recovery, moreso than a lot of the cast can say for themselves. The things that made Samus unique in PM Melee are things that she carries over here and add to her strengths; her survivability, superior zoning game, and a set of heavy finishers. With the Ice Beam in the mix, she's got even more tools to take stocks, all without compromising her ability to live longer.

I'd go so far to say that Samus has an even easier time surviving in Project M. With her floatiness retained, she has an easier time getting out of chaingrabs and combos than most members of the cast can.

 

[Litt]

No, they're two entirely different properties.

Also, the metagame hasn't nearly developed enough for you to know just how well Samus will perform. She still has a stellar recovery, moreso than a lot of the cast can say for themselves. The things that made Samus unique in PM are things that she carries over here and add to her strengths; her survivability, superior zoning game, and a set of heavy finishers. With the Ice Beam in the mix, she's got even more tools to take stocks, all without compromising her ability to live longer.

I'd go so far to say that Samus has an even easier time surviving in Project M. With her floatiness retained, she has an easier time getting out of chaingrabs and combos than most members of the cast can.

Fortress... no offense... but you are way too inexperienced to much such claims, nor do you play samus at the top level in melee to say that. Flat out you are wrong. Samus dies much sooner in Pm than she does in melee, and her zoning game is severly nerfed because of her tilts being slower, and her wavedash being shorter....... Yes she has a morph ball and ice moveset now, but all of it is janky, slow and doesn't assist much at the highest level....There is a reason there are no top samus players in PM yet, because there can't be. Ice beam, is literally useless, and she has more tools with a nerfed body and movement, to take less stocked all with compromising her ability to live longer. THERE WAS NEVER A CHAIN GRAB ON SAMUS IN MELEE..... so the fact that you said she has an easier time getting out of them just shows how inexperienced you are. It is beyond clear the level of opponents you are playing, so please do not speak here as if you know what you are talking about before even playing higher caliber players.

 

[GeZ]

Fortress... no offense... but you are way too inexperienced to much such claims, nor do you play samus at the top level in melee to say that. Flat out you are wrong. Samus dies much sooner in Pm than she does in melee, and her zoning game is severly nerfed because of her tilts being slower, and her wavedash being shorter....... Yes she has a morph ball and ice moveset now, but all of it is janky, slow and doesn't assist much at the highest level....There is a reason there are no top samus players in PM yet, because there can't be. Ice beam, is literally useless, and she has more tools with a nerfed body and movement, to take less stocked all with compromising her ability to live longer. THERE WAS NEVER A CHAIN GRAB ON SAMUS IN MELEE..... so the fact that you said she has an easier time getting out of them just shows how inexperienced you are. It is beyond clear the level of opponents you are playing, so please do not speak here as if you know what you are talking about before even playing higher caliber players.

C'mon KLit, I've been warming up to you, but you gotta phrase stuff a little bit more domestically. I know it seems annoying, but it makes conversations go much smoother and helps with flow of information rather than flow of insults. An easy place to start is just phrasing stuff like "Ice moveset is useless in my experience" or "I feel she is weaker because etc".

You write super standoffish, which I understand, but it hurts discussion a bit. Just sugarcoat everything a teensy bit, if nothing else just for everybody else's sensibilities. I can promise you'll make less enemies in threads, and still get to prove people wrong in the long run. That's how I've done it for most of my time here.

 

[Litt]

C'mon KLit, I've been warming up to you, but you gotta phrase stuff a little bit more domestically. I know it seems annoying, but it makes conversations go much smoother and helps with flow of information rather than flow of insults. An easy place to start is just phrasing stuff like "Ice moveset is useless in my experience" or "I feel she is weaker because etc".

You write super standoffish, which I understand, but it hurts discussion a bit. Just sugarcoat everything a teensy bit, if nothing else just for everybody else's sensibilities. I can promise you'll make less enemies in threads, and still get to prove people wrong in the long run. That's how I've done it for most of my time here.

I do agree with you GeZ, however if someone is just flat out wrong, I don't need to prove anything, I just told him why he is wrong and that he should not have spoken with such a definite attitude regarding his knowledge of high level play... It was obvious he has none, and I called him out on it, and I am not going to walk him though baby steps to get him to understand why he is wrong, is he comes here to learn and asked for it nicely, I will sugar coat it to your hearts content, but when someone thinks they know what they are talking about and gives you incorrect opinionated information based off of them playing with friends... then no sugar will be added, only NaCl- my friend

 

[MonkUnit]

KLit, her tilts are the exact same as Melee's. They hit and stay out for the same amount of frames.

 

[Fortress]

Fortress... no offense... but you are way too inexperienced to much such claims, nor do you play samus at the top level in melee to say that.

Pretty sure you don't, either. As far as I'm concerned, you're some nobody scrub that I've never heard of, who phrases everything like an asshole just because they can.

Flat out you are wrong. Samus dies much sooner in Pm than she does in melee

Do you want to show me how? I don't think she's lighter, so I'm not sure that's affecting it. She's having to deal with a lot more characters who can take advantage of her floatiness and kill her off the top of the screen, but that's just her having a more even matchup spread now, not because of any direct stat changes.

and her zoning game is severly nerfed because of her tilts being slower, and her wavedash being shorter.......

None of this was changed. I don't know the data on her ice D-tilt, but her tilts are just the same in terms of frame data.

Yes she has a morph ball and ice moveset now, but all of it is janky, slow and doesn't assist much at the highest level....There is a reason there are no top samus players in PM yet, because there can't be.

That's kind of a really thickheaded thing to say, and I'm sure that kind of crap has been said about a lot of characters who are performing well now. Samus has been out for barely three months now, and her meta is so poorly-developed that it's simply not fair to hold it against her for not having any top-level players as of yet. Wait a little longer.

Ice beam, is literally useless, and she has more tools with a nerfed body and movement, to take less stocked all with compromising her ability to live longer.

I don't see how the ice beam in any way makes her die any sooner. I'm not sure what a 'nerfed body' means, and if you're talking hurtboxes, weight and/or falling speed, or whatever, but again, her stats aren't the reason she seems to die 'more'; that's just a wider pool of characters who can take advantage (again) of killing her off the ceiling.

THERE WAS NEVER A CHAIN GRAB ON SAMUS IN MELEE..... so the fact that you said she has an easier time getting out of them just shows how inexperienced you are.

I do think she has an easier time than other cast members when it comes to escaping them. She's floaty, and falls slowly. Last I checked, that was a good formula for escaping those.

It was obvious he has none, and I called him out on it, and I am not going to walk him though baby steps to get him to understand why he is wrong, is he comes here to learn and asked for it nicely, I will sugar coat it to your hearts content, but when someone thinks they know what they are talking about {...}

Why don't you tell me how it was so obvious? You don't even know me. I posted one thing in this thread before you stuck your head up your ass and started talking through it. Why don't you tell me how I was wrong? The things I posted were as follows:

• Samus tends to 'die more' due to more characters that can take advantage of ceiling kills
• Samus' weight/falling speed tend to buffer against chaingrabs moreso than fast-fallers
• Ice Beam provides stronger finishing options, and broadens her options
• Survivability off-stage remains an extremely strong point of her's
• Stated that her metagame is very poorly developed with what little time she's been available for, so it's too soon to just flat-out say that she's worse

This isn't **** that I 'think' is right, those are things that I know are right. I didn't do a single thing to you to warrant the kind of **** that you've said back. If anything, I'm going to go out and say you're the one who's wrong. Her base stats have been retained from Melee for one, and for another thing, you're throwing out vague figures like "she only lives until 110% now". 110% on what stage? In what matchup? Against what attack? With what DI?

It is beyond clear the level of opponents you are playing, so please do not speak here as if you know what you are talking about before even playing higher caliber players.

Alright, you ****. Where's your wealth of experience with the game? I've never ****ing heard of you. Why don't you come money match me? Fifty dollars, K-town, Montana? If you're going to keep calling me out repeatedly on this, then I hope that you can at least show me that you're as exceptional as you say you are.

I hope for your sake that you can adjust your extremely poor attitude. I made my own observations on a character based on my experience with them, and that in no way warrants you digging into a player you don't even know.

Hell, I'll make it seventy-five dollars for a best of three sets if you want to put your money where your mouth is.

tl;dr @ Litt Come moneymatch me, you nameless scrub.

 

[OidBirdie]

This board is filled with C-Unts lol. Samus' stats haven't changed. Only the environment. Time will tell if samus has what it takes. I feel as if samus is one of the trickier chars to learn. Melee vet samuses have some new toys to play with too.

 

[Fortress]

I agree, Samus' viability in PM hasn't been affected by any stat changes, just a wider pool of characters that can play on a level field as her, or even above her now. Like you said, it's the environment that's changed more than anything else. Samus' new kit definitely doesn't hurt her in any way, either.

 

[DMG]

Giving Samus more weight would not fix her problems. What you actually want is more fall speed, to counter how easily she dies off the top. Changing that would have implications for other areas of her gameplay though (you'd have to rebalance bombs/bomb jumping for example), and it's not necessary.

You should be perfectly fine with her survivability, and instead should be asking for better onstage tools. Samus feels like she is falling behind, because she's inherently not suited towards longer/deathly combos. When you play as Samus, the general feeling you have is that you have to make "correct" decisions more often throughout a match to achieve the same effect of a better character. When scenarios pop up, you have to get a larger proportion correctly in your favor than a lot of strong characters. Like if your opponent is at 20%, and you are Samus? The line of "terrible options" that the other guy has to pick for you to brutally end his stock is pretty massive. He would have to:

1. Get hit or grabbed by Samus, who is not very swift at approaching or grabbing

2. DI poorly more than once

3. Already be at a stage positioning that is bad/leads offstage quickly

4. Probably has to get really read on recovery to outright die. Not eat a Dsmash or Missile that doesn't kill.


If Samus has to make more than 5+ decent reads to end your stock from neutral, a better character out there may only need 3-5 AND they get to approach on better terms. Samus isn't falling behind because of survivability or tilts. She's falling behind because the new flavor of PM is totally suited towards offense (even when you have DDing or defensive maneuvers, it's still the goal after these options to combo the living hell out of the other guy's mistake). She's existing in a new game alongside Lucas, Diddy, Wolf, all the returning top Melee characters, buffed Mario, new gliding and janky x approaching options, etc. She doesn't feel special, because 80% of the characters are now possibly aiming at 0-80% combos with ok-good+ approach tools and pretty damn good throws.


The direction Samus would have to go in, would either be even more powerful zoning OR more tuned towards combo/approach/mobility kill design that the updated and added characters seem to have. More powerful zoning however, will likely just lead to lesser characters having huge struggles vs Samus, not Samus doing remarkably better against better characters. If you buff how well Samus can combo or approach, say by reworking Utilt/Uair among other things, that will probably help her out more in the long run.



As far as Ice form goes: the only things that don't feel too useful or different are Ice Missle + Ice Dtilt. Ice Usmash and Fair have valid uses to warrant switching between whichever one you need. As far as Samus buffs go: I'd wholly support changing moves like Uair/Utilt to combo vertically better a tad. I can't think of valid or appropriate ways to improve her approaching abilities, without changing some of her identifiable niches and quirks.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Nothing quite makes my day like a Fortress rage.

 

[Litt]

I agree, Samus' viability in PM hasn't been affected by any stat changes, just a wider pool of characters that can play on a level field as her, or even above her now. Like you said, it's the environment that's changed more than anything else. Samus' new kit definitely doesn't hurt her in any way, either.

Fortress you are an idiot and I'd gladly MM you for an amount, **** if you want a 1000$ ill glad be the Tafo to your Tian.

 

[Fortress]

Nothing quite makes my day like a Fortress rage.

I rage with the force of a thousand white-hot scrubs.

Fortress you are an idiot and I'd gladly MM you for an amount, **** if you want a 1000$ ill glad be the Tafo to your Tian.

Get over here then. 130 Sunburst Court, Kalispell, MT 59901. Duplex on the right. I'm broke, overdrawn my checking account as of this morning, and haven't ever been to a major tournament, but we'll throw down just to prove a point. If you're just going to keep going on with the 'you're an idiot stfu' kind of crap and remain this unlikable, then it doesn't matter if you sweep me.

 

[Litt]

Do you want to show me how? I don't think she's lighter, so I'm not sure that's affecting it. She's having to deal with a lot more characters who can take advantage of her floatiness and kill her off the top of the screen, but that's just her having a more even matchup spread now, not because of any direct stat changes.
Because her weight to floatiness ratio has not changed, but the number of characters with upwards killing power has, along with other character having just as equal of a chance of making it back to the stage makes samus not viable at the highest level...


None of this was changed. I don't know the data on her ice D-tilt, but her tilts are just the same in terms of frame data.
LOL YES IT WAS CHANGED.... you DON'T EVEN PLAY SAMUS IN MELEE YOU ARE SOME SCRUB SHEIK... this samus in PM is a brawl model of samus... thicker body, her WD was reduced in lenght, and her forward tilts are infact slower.


That's kind of a really thickheaded thing to say, and I'm sure that kind of crap has been said about a lot of characters who are performing well now. Samus has been out for barely three months now, and her meta is so poorly-developed that it's simply not fair to hold it against her for not having any top-level players as of yet. Wait a little longer.
Its not that it is poorly developed, the PMBR team just threw of a bunch of cool looking **** into samus and hoped for the best without even considering what has made her a good character in the past. I have spoken to almost every single top melee samus main and they have agreed with what I am saying, which excuse me if when you disagree I don't value your opinion at all.


I don't see how the ice beam in any way makes her die any sooner. I'm not sure what a 'nerfed body' means, and if you're talking hurtboxes, weight and/or falling speed, or whatever, but again, her stats aren't the reason she seems to die 'more'; that's just a wider pool of characters who can take advantage (again) of killing her off the ceiling.
Sir if you could learn how to read... you could have saved time with this one and read that I said useless... not die sooner, her ice fsmash is useless for killing, upsmash has relatively no horizontal distance, and ice fair is the only thing that gets the job done kill wise, and when you switch to that moveset, that is all your opponent knows you are looking for which they can avoid because of samus's really high short hop.............


I do think she has an easier time than other cast members when it comes to escaping them. She's floaty, and falls slowly. Last I checked, that was a good formula for escaping those.
OF COURSE SHE DOES... SHE NEVER DID... WOW WHAT A GREAT OBSERVATION..... and ITS NOT ESCAPING YOU IDIOT... ITS NEVER HAVING THEM DONE BECAUSE THEY DONT EXIST..... INSTEAD BECAUSE OF THIS FLOATINESS SHE GETS AUTO UPSMASHED AGAINST CHARACTERS LIKE KIRBY AND DIE AT LIKE 90%......



Why don't you tell me how it was so obvious? You don't even know me. I posted one thing in this thread before you stuck your head up your *** and started talking through it. Why don't you tell me how I was wrong? The things I posted were as follows:

• Samus tends to 'die more' due to more characters that can take advantage of ceiling kills.... CORRECT.....
  
• Samus' weight/falling speed tend to buffer against chaingrabs moreso than fast-fallers.... NOT BUFFER... NEVER EXISTED....
  
• Ice Beam provides stronger finishing options, and broadens her options.... FALSE... LIMITS OPTIONS AND MAKES THEM MORE OBVIOUS
  
• Survivability off-stage remains an extremely strong point of her's... EXCEPT NOW THE GAME PLAY IS SLOWER BECAUSE OF USING BRAWLS GAME ENGINE AND MAKES IT REALLY EASY TO GIMP OFF STAGE.... SO AGAIN WRONG
  
• Stated that her metagame is very poorly developed with what little time she's been available for, so it's too soon to just flat-out say that she's worse.... NO METAGAME DEVELOPED BECAUSE NOT A VIABLE CHARACTER YET

I hope for your sake that you can adjust your extremely poor attitude. I made my own observations on a character based on my experience with them, and that in no way warrants you digging into a player you don't even know.

Sir your observations are wrong because you don't have experience against better players... and you shouldn't post such observations before gaining more experience.

And if you want to MM me that badly... come to a major, not traveling out to the middle of no where, where the money I will win will barely cover the cost of driving there.

 

[Fortress]

And if you want to MM me that badly... come to a major, not traveling out to the middle of no where, where the money I will win will barely cover the cost of driving there.

Guess all that posturing wasn't meaning anything then, huh? You dished the trash talk, I issued the challenge. It's how it goes, bruh. You got something to prove, come prove it. If you can't, then, whatever. We're done here.

 

[Litt]

Guess all that posturing wasn't meaning anything then, huh? You dished the trash talk, I issued the challenge. It's how it goes, bruh. You got something to prove, come prove it. If you can't, then, whatever. We're done here.

You are the one who has something to prove, you think you know what you are talking about, I flat out say you are wrong, you issue the challenge, its not on me to travel... I said lets make it convient on both of us and Ill either take your money or play you for free at the next major you go to, just to show you, that you are wrong, and to prove a point. You don't play samus in melee, and you just started playing competatively in october, despite having put out over 1,500 messages. You have a lot to say, but very little experience to back any of it up besides your opinion playing with friends... are there even any semi good players in your state? let alone region?

 

[didds]

battle royale

 

[DMG]

WU TANG!

I just want to say again, that her tilts should be exactly the same in speed from Melee. If you disagree, prove it then. Most of the time when people make claims like that, they end up being wrong. See: M2K talking about Captain Falcon frame data

 

[Fortress]

WU TANG!

I just want to say again, that her tilts should be exactly the same in speed from Melee. If you disagree, prove it then. Most of the time when people make claims like that, they end up being wrong. See: M2K talking about Captain Falcon frame data

I think all of her tilts are, including the Ice U-Tilt lol I'm dumb ice u-tilt is a completely different attack.. Not so sure about Ice D-Tilt though. I don't have the frame data handy, but I know for sure that her normal tilts are the same.

 

[Vashimus]

All of her tilts are the same. F-tilt has a new animation, but it has the same frame data as the Melee one.

 

[Fortress]

What changed about the animation, specifically? And could you school me on ice u-tilt? I just feel like it's faster, but I don't know for sure.

 

[MonkUnit]

Fortress, I assume you mean Ice U-Smash, not U-Tilt because the only tilt that changes when switching to Ice is D-Tilt. Also, I already checked and confirmed that her U-Tilt, D-Tilt, and F-Tilt neutral/hi/low all match Melee completely. They are not slower at all. I guess this is a good reminder for me work on the Samus frame data thread ASAP. =)

Re: F-Tilt animation, Her F-Tilt has her extend her leg with more force compared to Melee.

 

[Stride]

LOL YES IT WAS CHANGED.... you DON'T EVEN PLAY SAMUS IN MELEE YOU ARE SOME SCRUB SHEIK... this samus in PM is a brawl model of samus... thicker body, her WD was reduced in lenght, and her forward tilts are infact slower

Survivability off-stage remains an extremely strong point of her's... EXCEPT NOW THE GAME PLAY IS SLOWER BECAUSE OF USING BRAWLS GAME ENGINE AND MAKES IT REALLY EASY TO GIMP OFF STAGE.... SO AGAIN WRONG

KLit, may I ask how much you have played of Project M 3.0 and above? The game engine is now almost functionally identical to Melee's; floatiness is identical, any change in gameplay speed is caused only by different stages and matchups. The most commonly stated and significant universal difference is the 1 frame delay on all momentum calculations (which is why people say certain tech is easier in PM), almost everything else is identical to Melee.

There are certainly no differences like those you are describing in any of the recent versions of PM. Since Samus was only added in 3.0, I assume you must have played the newer versions; therefore you must be mistaken about the engine differences as they apply to Samus.

Unless mentioned otherwise, all frame data and hitboxes/hurtboxes in Project M are identical to Melee's (so Samus' "thicker body" has no effect, all moves are exactly as fast, etc.). This is the reason why high-tier Melee veterans don't have frame data threads on the PM character boards but some Brawl characters do, the Melee characters' frame data is the same in Melee. SmashWiki details all of Samus' changes relative to Melee here; note that wavedash distance and such is not mentioned: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Samus_(PM)

If you don't believe Fortress about the tilts, please believe the member of the Project M Back Room; you seem to have missed his post since you mentioned the slower tilts in a subsequent post of yours

KLit, her tilts are the exact same as Melee's. They hit and stay out for the same amount of frames.

 

[Fortress]

Fortress, I assume you mean Ice U-Smash, not U-Tilt because the only tilt that changes when switching to Ice is D-Tilt. Also, I already checked and confirmed that her U-Tilt, D-Tilt, and F-Tilt neutral/hi/low all match Melee completely. They are not slower at all. I guess this is a good reminder for me work on the Samus frame data thread ASAP. =)

Re: F-Tilt animation, Her F-Tilt has her extend her leg with more force compared to Melee.

Yeah, I mean U-smash. I've been saying U-tilt, haven't I? Like, this whole time. And as for f-tilt, she reaches out farther then? Never noticed that.

If you don't believe Fortress about the tilts

Believe in the me that believes in the frame data.

 

[GeZ]

Believe in the me that believes in the frame data.

Row row fight the powah

 

[MonkUnit]

I don't know if her F-Tilt has more or less reach due to the animation, I just know that she extends her leg with more force compared to Melee's F-Tilt(s) but the frame data is the same.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yeah, Melee's just looked like "Her is a leg, I am extending it." P:M's looks like an actual kick.

 

[DMG]

The animation may make her more/less vulnerable to someone attacking the outstretch leg. If she sticks it out faster per frame or pulls back longer (with the same cooldown obv)

 

[Litt]

There are clear differences, espeically with the ftilt in the movement of her game whether it be because the stages are smaller or larger... the cool down or start up frames have changed... for a fact samus can no longer short hop fast fall missile cancel.... I mean as a whole the game is played at a slower pace than melee and her running animation is faster than her perfect wave dashes... which was not the same as it was in melee... despite what anyone claims to be true... they are very different and I can pull actual samus players from melee on this board if you guys are unable to see that for yourselves. Also I think it is hilarious that the page you refereed me to has Chibo as a notable samus in PM... he is a very nice guy and all but he is by no means notable, and wait everything on wiki must be true... :/

 

[Litt]

Realistically, the best things to do to samus to make her more viable in the next version update would be a slimmer body, a longer wave dash, change the missiles back to melee missiles, ability to grapple the side of the stage, and most importantly modify the ice moveset in some way to make it useful, whether it be make her a fast faller when in ice mode, have the ice forward smash actually deal equal to or greater knock back than flame fsmash, or just make her short hop shorter in ice mode.....

 

[DMG]

Her wavedashes may be affected by the 1 frame delay on movement. Stage detection for landing may also be off a tad (which could throw off missles). Everything else you've said about frame data is wrong. I don't care if you brought the Pope himself, you'd still be wrong.

 

[Fortress]

Okay, done with this. Just to settle this, here's a quick snippet demonstrating the various angles and knockbacks of Samus' attacks and their Ice Beam variants at various percentages against a character with some kind of average stats and average build. Used percentages at 0%, 50%, and 100%.

Plasma F-Smash: Stronger hit, higher trajectory. Single-hit attack.
Ice F-Smash: Weaker hit overall, lower trajectory. Two-hit attack (at close range). When the opponent DI's inward in response, it sets Samus up for a potential Ice F-air.

Plasma U-Smash: Multiple hits, solid damage potential. Stronger than Ice U-Smash in terms of damage dealt. Tends to send the opponent much more upward.
Ice U-Smash: Single, slightly weaker hit, with much higher knockback (?) with an angle more favorable for KO'ing.

Plasma D-Tilt: Much stronger than the Ice version. Tends to launch opponents higher, and behind/above Samus. Good setups for B-air finisher.
Ice D-Tilt: Much lower trajectory, with forward-launching knockback. More conducive to removing opponent from the stage, rather than set up for aerial finishers.

Plasma F-Air: Potentially stronger than the Ice version (assuming all(?) attacks hit, not sure on damage for this one), doling multiple hits. Good attack for racking up damage, and for filling/ending low% combos with.
Ice F-air: Quite the opposite of the Plasma Beam version, the Ice F-air is one of Samus' new KO options.

slimmer body

This was a little harder for me to get some solid visuals of. The camera is zoomed differently in both of these, but clearly, you can see that Samus is roughly the same height, and even has a different stance in PM, with her left leg closer to her body. She's even slimmer than Melee.

, a longer wave dash, change the missiles back to melee missiles

You're going to have to fill me in on where you're getting that, because only the Ice Missiles are that much different, and her wavedash is the same. In fact, she still has one of the more solid WD games in PM.

ability to grapple the side of the stage

LOL. Samus still has one of the most stellar recovery games in PM. Why would she need this on top of what she has? Link needs that more than her, and he doesn't need it at all.

and most importantly modify the ice moveset in some way to make it useful

As far as I can tell, Ice Beam has given her new kill options, and new ways to get the opponent off-stage. Ice d-tilt is an excellent option out of crawl (crawl in itself being amazing thanks to being able to WD out of it and whatnot) to remove your opponent from the stage, where Ice F-air/U-smash are now some of Samus' go-to kill options, which can be argued as being easier/safer than either b-air or d-air.

whether it be make her a fast faller when in ice mode

Wat. Don't get how that could happen, for one, and I don't understand how Samus being a fast-faller helps her at all. Her Ice Moveset doesn't exactly cry out for a better SHFFL game, and having Samus suddenly be weaker to CG isn't exactly great, either.

have the ice forward smash actually deal equal to or greater knock back than flame fsmash,

Stronger =/= better. Where Plasma F-Smash is better for kills outright, the angles between the two are just different enough to where the opponent must DI slightly differently between Ice and Plasma. You get some stupid-bad hangtime while DI'ing in on Ice F-smash.

Ice F-smash being weaker also allows her to use it more reliably at lower percents to rack up damage without sending the opponent too far away from her, keeping them within grab range. The multiple hits also link together nicely.

I did my homework.

@ DMG not sure if you knew about some of the angles on some of Samus' ice attacks. I just now figured out a few of them myself getting data for them. I'm still having trouble finding a really big difference in Ice and Plasma F-Smash, but so far it's coming down to Plasma being geared towards killing, and Ice having a slightly lower angle and weaker knockback/damage (weaker damage assuming both hits don't chain), more suited for following with a grab. What's your take?

 

[DMG]

Ice Fsmash kind of sucks, and Ice Dtilt is kind of meh. Ice Usmash and Fair are basically where you see a difference, and should be the main reasons for switching to Ice.

 

[Fortress]

Yeah, I can't find an actual reason to use Ice f-smash over the Plasma one. It just seems weaker overall. Ice D-tilt though, I figure the angle was so much more different that it would have a completely different application than Plasma D-tilt.

 

[Strong Badam]

is this thread real