Why Marth Isn't Top Tier

[JesiahTEG]

There aren't enough good Marth players. I think Marth needs to be played smarter than falco, fox, and sheik at high levels, and his play style is extremely match up based. Marth has the potential to be the best character in the game because of his versatility, but mastering him is harder than mastering the other 3 most used tourney characters. He has the most potential, and has the potential for the most creativity and unpredictability. The only problem is, fox and falco are more successful in tourneys because for the most part, not always, but for the most part, they can be played the same way without adjusting to their match ups, and be more successful than a marth that plays without changing thier style according to matchups. Fox and Falco have less potential to be creative and unpredictable, but marth has more versatility than fox, falco, and sheik. Marth's versatility has only been utilized to the max by a few players, Ken and Azen being among them, and this is the reason Marth was top tier at one point. Since the tier list is based solely on tourney results, and fox and falco are easier to master than Marth (not tech wise, but match up wise) ppl play fox and falco more than marth, and generally do better than marth in tourneys, because Marth is more difficult to be successful with at a high level of play than fox and falco are. For this reason, I've noticed a significant increase in fox and falco's in tourneys, and again because the tier list is based on tourney results, marth is not top tier. He is high tier though, and this is because more ppl play Marth than they play other characters like DK, Ness, Bowser. This is because marth is obviously a better character than everyone else in the tiers below him. This is an extremely unbalanced fighting game. Others may argue that peach is harder to use than marth, and that's why the number of peaches in tourneys have gone down, and that's also why peach has moved down the tier list, but IMO marth is a better character than peach, with more potential.

Summary: A Marth that is successful in high levels of play requires the player to be smarter, more creative, and unpredictable than Fox, Falco and Sheik. For this reason, 1.) Marth's have been played less in recent tourneys, 2.) It's easier to be successful with Fox, Falco and Sheik.


Remember, this is all opinion based on my recent observations and everything i've studied about smash. I'd appreciate it if higher level players put in their two cents and let me know what their opinion on my thoughts are. I'd like to hear from more experienced players, and it would mean a lot to me if I could get some feedback from players like Husband, Cactuar, Frostbyte, UMBC super smasher, b-will...maybe even ken and taj.

 

[Nick Nasty]

I may not be a higher level player, but I do main Marth and I completely agree with the fact that Marth should be top tier. He has much going for him and, if utilized properly, can be a serious contender. IMO, the only thing that the space animals have going for them is the shine. Also, a higher level Marth must be able to adapt to his opponent faster than Shiek, Fox or Falco. A good example was when Ken was facing Bombsoldier, who probably has one of the best falcos that i have ever seen. Then if u compare to what a higher level Shiek, Fox or Falco has to do during a match, u can see the difference most of the time. Nice post BTW.

 

[JesiahTEG]

I may not be a higher level player, but I do main Marth and I completely agree with the fact that Marth should be top tier. He has much going for him and, if utilized properly, can be a serious contender. IMO, the only thing that the space animals have going for them is the shine. Also, a higher level Marth must be able to adapt to his opponent faster than Shiek, Fox or Falco. A good example was when Ken was facing Bombsoldier, who probably has one of the best falcos that i have ever seen. Then if u compare to what a higher level Shiek, Fox or Falco has to do during a match, u can see the difference most of the time. Nice post BTW.

I didn't say marth SHOULD be top tier, because the tier list is based on tourney results, and if you go by tourney results marth shouldn't be top tier. I guess i'm saying he has the potential to be top tier, but the potential is extremely difficult to fully utilize.

Space animals have more going for them than the shine, or else they wouldn't be top tier. They are extremely good characters with advantages over almost every other character.

You said a higher level marth must be able to adapt to his opponent faster than sheik, fox, or falco. This is not true, but true in a way. You should say, it's more difficult for marth to adapt to his opponent faster than the other characters because the other characters, for the most part, can be played with a single style and be more effective against multiple styles of play.

 

[Nick Nasty]

I didn't say marth SHOULD be top tier, because the tier list is based on tourney results, and if you go by tourney results marth shouldn't be top tier. I guess i'm saying he has the potential to be top tier, but the potential is extremely difficult to fully utilize.

Space animals have more going for them than the shine, or else they wouldn't be top tier. They are extremely good characters with advantages over almost every other character.

You said a higher level marth must be able to adapt to his opponent faster than sheik, fox, or falco. This is not true, but true in a way. You should say, it's more difficult for marth to adapt to his opponent faster than the other characters because the other characters, for the most part, can be played with a single style and be more effective against multiple styles of play.

I am sorry to have misunderstood. Now that I think about it, space animals are really well rounded characters who have a lot going for them. The reason that i said that the shine was the only thing going for them was because if u are playing a decent Fox/Falco, a Marth can't O-death them with chaingrabbing as much as u would want to. Then again, there are probably ways around that. Sorry for the misunderstand and thanks for correcting me.

 

[TGM]

Look at fox and falco

thier play styles are very fast. Marth playstyles are not. speed plays a big roles in matches. Lasers from falco and shines from falco all wreck.


Look at shiek

Shiek has 3 tilts. ALL 3 lead to more tilts and more tilts and more tilts and slap. math has ONE good tilt and it MUST hit the tip for you to lead into anything good. Shiek allso has a chain grab that is much better than marths. chain grab to any of the 3 tilts, tilt some more then slap. Needles, these alone can take stock off. you can needle cancel, u can screw up the foes recovery and u can chip damage.

and i didnt even hit the match ups.


Even though ive mained marth for 6 years and been to MANY MANY tournaments and played TRULY EPIC players, i can accept that marth will never be top.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Even though ive mained marth for 6 years and been to MANY MANY tournaments and played TRULY EPIC players, i can accept that marth will never be top.

He was top before.

 

[TGM]

only becuase the potential of the fox and falco and were not found yet and the results of tournaments wernt out to back it up. marth had his time way back in the day. Smash will most like-ly see one more change in the tier list before brawl comes out and marth will probly move down one notch.

 

[ToP CaT]

i doubt he will move down, good marth players are still ******...fox maybe replaced by shiek, but still the same top guys

 

[Pat/Pro]

Marth is not top tier because there are so many shieks. If shiek was not in existence marth would be top tier period. He is also considered to be countered, by many including ken, by captain falcon. So he has his weaknesses. And to say that fox doesnt have to change his play style depending on what characters he is playing is ********. Some characters its all about waveshine combos like against shiek against some shines only really serve for shinespiking and to prevent shield grabbing, some its all about grabs and some grabs are useless, against some its all out offense, against some you have to be a laser spamming defensive mastermind, etc. If you dont play fox than you just dont understand how the character you are playing actually changes how you play.

 

[TGM]

i doubt he will move down, good marth players are still ******...fox maybe replaced by shiek, but still the same top guys

good marth players ARE still ******, just not as much. ken as of recently has been doing badly, PC/KD/M2K have been beating him........with fox and falco.

I believe IC will be moving up due to more and more people learning how to wobble,since its not officialy banned. I also think peach will be moving up as well. Sheik replacing fox, i dont think that will happen, but time will tell.

 

[MuBa]

If it's tourney results you're talking about, I think Falco may replace Fox, but that's about it.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Marth is not top tier because there are so many shieks. If shiek was not in existence marth would be top tier period. He is also considered to be countered, by many including ken, by captain falcon. So he has his weaknesses. And to say that fox doesnt have to change his play style depending on what characters he is playing is ********. Some characters its all about waveshine combos like against shiek against some shines only really serve for shinespiking and to prevent shield grabbing, some its all about grabs and some grabs are useless, against some its all out offense, against some you have to be a laser spamming defensive mastermind, etc. If you dont play fox than you just dont understand how the character you are playing actually changes how you play.

First off, even if shiek wasn't a character in smash, Marth would still not be top tier. And I said FOR THE MOST PART, fox plays a single style more than Marth does. Fox waveshines every character, not just sheik. Fox will shinespike any character he can, and fox's grab is never useless. And I do play fox, I play every character. I will beat you in a fox ditto, or my fox vs any of your characters. I can tell by the way that your talking that you have no idea what your talking about. This is why I asked for more experienced smashers to comment. Please if your unsure or have no clue about what your talking about, don't comment. I'm looking for opinions of ppl who know how to play this game.

 

[Aesir]

Low tiers tend to do very well vs marth, for whatever reason they just do.

Like Yoshi for instance Yoshi has good vertical kill moves marth has like no vertical recovery thus it can be a very bad match up for him.

thats just to name one there are numerous low tiers that give marth a hard time.

that maybe why. >_>

 

[TGM]

Low tier such as link can give marth a hard time but honestly i dont think it weighs in at all. cause other low tiers give higher tier problems too. kirby gives sheik problems.

 

[BigRick]

Why marth isn't top tier?

the Tiara

 

[Aesir]

>_> I really doubt good sheiks are having trouble against good Kirby's.

and I think it kinda does weigh in a bit, since the space animals really have no bad match ups where as marth as quite a few not so favorable ones.

 

[JesiahTEG]

>_> I really doubt good sheiks are having trouble against good Kirby's.

and I think it kinda does weigh in a bit, since the space animals really have no bad match ups where as marth as quite a few not so favorable ones.

So your saying that another reason Marth is not top tier is because he has trouble with some low tiers? I don't think that's applicable because I've never seen a high level marth lose to a high level low tier.

 

[TGM]

>_> I really doubt good sheiks are having trouble against good Kirby's.

and I think it kinda does weigh in a bit, since the space animals really have no bad match ups where as marth as quite a few not so favorable ones.

Have you heard of Rob$? He is the 2nd best player in TX and his sheik has proven itself for years, its beaten HugS and other great players. Well, the best kirby in the world KKK(KrazyKirbyKid) beat rob money. in fact if you go to the hub and do a search or ask around you will see that kirby tends to do very very well on sheik.

But in reality, low tier does not effect the place of high tier, mainly for the fact that you dont see low tiers ever making it up to the top 5 whewre marths are generally at.

 

[Aesir]

so one player does well in one match up all of sudden its true? riiiight.

edit: meaning, just because KKK does well vs sheik with his kirby doesn't really mean anything. >_>

 

[JesiahTEG]

I've actually also heard that Kirbys do well against sheik...Although the only Sheik I actually have confirmation of losing to a Kirby is Rob$'s sheik. I think Kirby's usually lose to sheiks, but do better than any other low teir character.

 

[TGM]

so one player does well in one match up all of sudden its true? riiiight.

edit: meaning, just because KKK does well vs sheik with his kirby doesn't really mean anything. >_>

i gave u an example, thats all.

 

[Pat/Pro]

Fox waveshines every character, not just sheik.

If you read what I said ****** I was referring to waveshining combos being a major part against some characters and not for others. If you try and dispute that you are ********. Waveshine combos for the most part only work against characters with good traction. So idiot fox doesnt waveshine every character. A waveshine is a shine followed by a wavedash followed by an attack. Please tell me how you are going to be in range for an attack against a character that doesnt have the traction to put you in a position to do so.

fox's grab is never useless..

Although it is not completely useless I was tryinig to point out the fact that in some matchups what you are trying to do is land grabs whereas in others its an afterthought. If you read cunning kitsunes guide he even states that.

And I do play fox, I play every character. I will beat you in a fox ditto, or my fox vs any of your characters. I can tell by the way that your talking that you have no idea what your talking about.

First I have never heard of you before so and I know pretty much all the good new york players so there is no way in hell you would beat me. I have never seen you at a big tourney or even heard your name muttered. Seeing as I play with and practice with some of the best players in my area there is no need for me to post ******** questions because I could just ask them first hand. And pretty much everything I said was 100% true, you are just being an idiot. Put your money where your mouth is kid.

First off, even if shiek wasn't a character in smash, Marth would still not be top tier.

Wait a second your saying a character who you speak of as being so great, who you mentioned was previously top tier, wouldnt be top tier if his biggest counter were removed from the game. And the fact that you say this so boldly and without question means you are pretty sure of it. Are you kidding me? He would be the only character without a recognized counter.

In closing, I dont know what the hell is up your *** but you need to calm down little man. There are plenty of people in the smash community with valid opinions besides the people you listed.

 

[Pat/Pro]

And if you want to see a high level marth lose to a high level low tier look at this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3VQyta-cfc

 

[Aesir]

Didn't notice this till now.

So your saying that another reason Marth is not top tier is because he has trouble with some low tiers? I don't think that's applicable because I've never seen a high level marth lose to a high level low tier.

Yeah I am lol, and I have. >_>

 

[JesiahTEG]

Ok well this whole Kirby Sheik thing is interesting, but if possible i'd like to keep this thread on topic. About the reasons why Marth isn't top tier.

Does the fact that Marth has bad matchups against some low tiers affect his tier placing at all? I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Almost positive, but not 100%. I actually play with one of the best yoshi's in the US on a weekly/daily basis, and I can COMPLETELY understand how yoshi seems to have an advantage over marth, but even though yoshi can vertical kill marth easily...Marth has so many other advantages over him, mainly range. Yoshi can be gimped very easily by marth too, so I dont think low teirs have anything to do with marth's tier placement. The only characters I think affect it are fox, falco, sheik, and sometimes Peach and CF. maybe, maybe IC's too, but mainly just the other top and high tiers.

 

[TGM]

neo has beaten ken before. aniki has beaten ken before. So please dont bring up that low tier cant beat high tier.

 

[Pat/Pro]

I have a link to the aniki thing above. This kid is clueless he thinks fox can waveshine combo everyone.

 

[Aesir]

Its not unheard of, marth just really had bad low tier match ups. >___>;

I think most of the low tier cast actually has some weird advantage over him lol

 

[TGM]

I have a link to the aniki thing above. This kid is clueless he thinks fox can waveshine combo everyone.

He is clue-less. but insulting him doesnt help things.

 

[JesiahTEG]

PatPro, I live in Rochester, New York. I play at Arena51 Lan/Gaming Center, located at 376 Jefferson Rd, 14623, almost everyday, and I'm there usually from 6PM on weekdays until 1-3AM. On weekends I'm there usually all day. There are Biweeklies every first and third weekends of the month, and I attend those regularly too. My screenname is eveofmorse. I will play you anytime you want. I would have trouble getting to where you are unless the rest of my crew goes, so if your telling ME to put my money where my mouth is, stop talking and come play me. There are also Lock ins every third friday, from 10PM to 10AM, where you could come play me all night. I rather not argue with you anymore, because I made this thread to obtain information that will help my mental aspects of this game. So, if you really think you can beat me just come try, but let's stop arguing and if your gonna make another post, make it intelligent, or don't do it at all. Also, if you do plan on coming to play me, bring your crew so we can have a crew battle. Thanks, and I hope to see you soon.

 

[JesiahTEG]

I didn't mean that no low tiers can beat high tiers, TGM. I acknowledge the fact that Marth can lose to low tiers, probably more often than the other high tier characters too. I'm asking you if you think it affects his tier placement, i'm not trying to argue with you. I'm saying I don't think it affects Marth's tier placement because it doesn't happen very often, most high level marths lose to sheik's, fox's and falco's.

 

[Mew2King]

I mean, nobody cares what the tier list is, fact is the top 4 characters are all top tier aroundabout the same level.

 

[Cactuar]

Marth is a character requiring some talent at the game to use well. A mistake by a Marth player often leads into heavy damage and possible loss of stock. Being able to react to our opponent and pick apart their strategies and weaknesses is often much more important than it is with other characters. While Marth has an amazing combo and edgeguard game, he has a moderately high amount of lag of most of his moves, also lacking a quick killing move. Other top tier characters are noted because of their ability to often used a specific move to KO the opponent, ie: Fox + Verticals, Falco + combo into whatever, Sheik + whatever into fair/uair. Marths must rely on being able to not only combo, but space properly through the duration of the combo, reacting to DI, changing %'s, stage position, and still be able to use his limited selection of kill moves, which generally comes down to tipper fsmash on stage, dair off stage, or possible up-b opportunities, while at the same time also paying mind to the opponent's %, trying to make sure that you don't push them into Marth's impossible to kill % range, where Marth can no longer combo into kill move from his less laggy aerial moveset.

The other top tier characters can often get away with being mindlessly aggressive or campy. Marth has to rely on being able to pressure his opponent into his sword range. While people may complain about that range, they tend to not understand that Marth leaves himself open for a large period of time every time he uses his sword, and at higher levels of play it becomes painfully obvious, as players at that level begin to be able to perfectly evade in and out of it's range, constantly pushing for a slight mistake, a mistimed fair/anything really, and immediately going in and punishing the Marth for it.

This is turning into an essay, so I'm going to cut it short. The reality of the Marth talent pool is that there are only a handful of players with the potential to do well with Marth amongst the thousands out there. Players like Husband and I would currently only be at the bottom of that list of high level players (though our actual potential might vary, taking into consideration actual time spent playing the game), and between us and the top Marth's like Ken, M2K, Azen, there are likely less players than I have fingers. Marth players are becoming a minority as it becomes painfully obvious how much less pure talent and more mindless muscle memory it takes to play a character like Fox or Falco (no offense to Fox/Falco players).

 

[Hylian]

Marth is a character requiring some talent at the game to use well. A mistake by a Marth player often leads into heavy damage and possible loss of stock. Being able to react to our opponent and pick apart their strategies and weaknesses is often much more important than it is with other characters. While Marth has an amazing combo and edgeguard game, he has a moderately high amount of lag of most of his moves, also lacking a quick killing move. Other top tier characters are noted because of their ability to often used a specific move to KO the opponent, ie: Fox + Verticals, Falco + combo into whatever, Sheik + whatever into fair/uair. Marths must rely on being able to not only combo, but space properly through the duration of the combo, reacting to DI, changing %'s, stage position, and still be able to use his limited selection of kill moves, which generally comes down to tipper fsmash on stage, dair off stage, or possible up-b opportunities, while at the same time also paying mind to the opponent's %, trying to make sure that you don't push them into Marth's impossible to kill % range, where Marth can no longer combo into kill move from his less laggy aerial moveset.

The other top tier characters can often get away with being mindlessly aggressive or campy. Marth has to rely on being able to pressure his opponent into his sword range. While people may complain about that range, they tend to not understand that Marth leaves himself open for a large period of time every time he uses his sword, and at higher levels of play it becomes painfully obvious, as players at that level begin to be able to perfectly evade in and out of it's range, constantly pushing for a slighly mistake, a mistimed fair/anything really, and immediately going in and punishing the Marth for it.

This is turning into an essay, so I'm going to cut it short. The reality of the Marth talent pool is that there are only a handful of players with the potential to do well with Marth amongst the thousands out there. Players like Husband and I would currently only be at the bottom of that list of high level players (though our actual potential might vary, taking into consideration actual time spent playing the game), and between us and the top Marth's like Ken, M2K, Azen, there are likely less players than I have fingers. Marth players are becoming a minority as it becomes painfully obvious how much less pure talent and more mindless muscle memory it takes to play a character like Fox or Falco (no offense to Fox/Falco players).

None taken . Allthough I really don't think fox is just purly muscle memory. Most fox players focus more on movement and evading into a grab. They just develop their techskill so that they don't have to worry about it then work on finding openings to punish their opponent using their movement/camping ability. Marth is sort of the same way..for example watch FastLikeTree's Marth and His fox. His pressure game is amazing and he is in complete control of his characters at all times. It's not only that though..its talent. Not many people have the talent to be this amazing at this game in such a short time. I don't know what it is exactly but you have to have some sort of mental advantage to win at the top levels of this game. Pros will pick apart your every mistake and error and break your character down into just repeated movements which they then proceed to punish.

 

[~Tac~]

I mean, nobody cares what the tier list is, fact is the top 4 characters are all top tier aroundabout the same level.

Exactly what I think. MY opinion is that the tier list is based on the character's capabilities, moveset, speed, strength and reaction speed. (Not sure what word to use, but response times such as Fox's near immediate jump when X/Y is pressed.) Not solely on how many good players you see using that character.

 

[Cactuar]

I have a Fox as well. I didn't say he requires just pure muscle memory though. He is just a character more heavily dependent on muscle memory.

 

[Rage.]

Why marth isn't top tier?

the Tiara

I thought it was a head band?

I think Marth is fine where he is.
He doesnt need a million good marth players to be Top Tier
cause he has a few of the worlds best players to be high tier (Being Ken, Azen, Neo ect. ect.)
Marth is way better and more useful at higher levels of play
thats why all the best pros play him.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Cactuar, thank you so much. Honestly, I needed to know a high level player's thoughts. It's known that at times, Marth needs to be played more campy and spacious than other characters, but would you say he needs to be played more "carefully" because of his high punishable-error rate?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Cactuar said it all. Marth has to play like a wuss to win. If he attacks and his move gets shielded has to run away, shield or roll. He can't just rush in like a madman. Nor does he have some godly approach. I'll admit he has more options to approach with then the other top 5. It's just that thier options are far better and more reliable then his. Lasers, needles, space animals nairs and dairs. They are all too good. Plus everyone esle has moves to cover themselves with and they are less laggy. Marth doesn't have some all purpose move he can rely on. Fair to some extent, but that only gets him so far. Plus his attacks have to complete thier arc before they hit. Which means it actually takes him longer to attack people then the other top 5.

His saving grace is his incredible killing power behind his f smash his great combos, and his ability to gimp people with awesome edge guarding, but it isn't enough.

Marth is not top tier, nor should he be.

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

First of all, I'm not an experienced player; I've only been playing this game since last October. I am learning marth just like everyone else.

There is so much I could talk about on this, but I'll try to keep it short. My thoughts on this subject will likely just repeat Cactuar, but here they are:

Lately I've been realizing the reality of marth's huge learning curve more than ever as I keep hitting virtual walls prohibiting any improvement. An example is my marth vs peach, be it Doll, Kirbstir, Nicholas, etc. I've been trying to beat these peach players with my marth for months now, but still consistently lose despite advise from Husband, M2K, etc. Recently I decided to try focusing on counterpicks (even though marth counters peach) such as sheik vs peach or fox vs peach. To be honest, I actually believe my fox to be better than my marth now, with my falco close behind. I believe the reason is because the learning curve for fox, falco and sheik is much shorter than the learning curve for marth. Also, I may be more of a technical player than a mindgame-intensive player.

Seeing how it's 4am, I am going to just give quick bullets or thoughts to explain my key points, since it's easy to write pages on this:

- marth is all about mindgames. A stupid marth player is a dead marth player because it is so easy to punish marth. Ken is (or was?) the best in the world because he is the epitome of a perfect player; people couldn't find mistakes to punish.

- In addition to mindgames, marth takes a lot of skill to play well. Spacing and timing is more important for marth than for any other character. This is also partly because any move marth makes puts him open for attack.

- Back to learning curve... every character matchup is different for marth, though some share similarities. Few people can use marth exclusively versus any matchup and win. In fact, I daresay no one can; Ken has switched to fox on several occasions, Azen has switched to several different characters (I'm thinking about Azen vs King in MLG), EK well... he loses with marth against sheik because he doesn't switch, Husband will tell you he has his difficulties, and personally I am learning counterpicks against the characters I can't beat with marth (peach and sheik in particular). I'm not going to be stubborn and stick with marth when I could be kicking *** with fox, falco or sheik. I believe that at the level of play Smash has reached, it is necessary to master several characters and switch around when necessary in order to win. This is evidenced by PC Chris, KDJ, M2K, Nihonjin, and CJ - all of which have experienced more success in Smash than I, or most for that matter, could dream of achieving. The concept of a main character may pervade in Smash, but the concept of secondaries, especially for marth players, is more crucial than ever to succeeding in tournaments.

I hope this offers some insight. If I had to tell marth players one thing in this post, it would be to learn other characters to handle your weaknesses with marth.