Why MK and Snake semi-stall the Metagame

[mariofanpm12]

Before you flame me or anything like that... take note that I completely respect Meta Knight and Snake as characters, and am in no way trying my hand at insulting them or endouraging people to stop being them or anything like that.

My post here is about how so many character main rates are decreasing over these two. There's been a decrease in the maining of many characters due to their lack of good advantages on MK and Snake or because people are tempted to play these two due to their popularity on the Tier List.

I think that the Brawl metagame would be more developed if people quit comparing characters to Meta Knight and Snake. Nowadays, characters are accepted or rejected as mains depending on how they fair against these two. It's pretty sad. Not the people, but how these two have put the metagame of Brawl at a semi-standstill.

I just say that characters shouldn't be judged based on their matchups against these two characters, but instead on their own unique pros and cons against other characters as well.

This is also why so many characters are underdeveloped. PCHU once said that if God played Brawl, we'd be left with questions and theories we may never find the answers to. So there's still lots to discover, mainly about each individual character and their secrets. Too many techniques are dismissed simply because they aren't directly useful against Meta KNight or Snake.

To sum things up, people need to look beyond a character's matchup against these two, and instead look deeper.

That, is all my two cents.

 

[Oracle]

Thats because they are the best, and basically, you barely stand a chance with anyone else.

Cept yoshi.

 

[cjrocker]

This is wishful thinking. Sorry.

 

[mariofanpm12]

This is wishful thinking. Sorry.

Well, yeah, I know that none of the characters will probably ever surpass these two, but I'm just trying to encourage a little more character development, particularly for lower ranked characters.

 

[jyuuberu]

Good characters don't stall the metagame. They stop it.

Let's say I'm freaking amazing with yoshi. I go to a tournament and am owned by snake. I realize that all I do with yoshi will never beat the top snakes and go to play another character. All my potential yoshi skills and practice are wasted because some characters are simply better than others.

 

[KoJ]

Unfortunately, most tourney people play to win. That's not a bad thing, but it means that choosing a character who gets assraped by those two isn't a good idea.

As a non-tourney goer, I still play to win. If someone brings out Meta, I bring out the Meta counter. If someone brings out Snake, Snake counter it is. Playing to win is what makes the Metagame fun for games where things are balanced. However, when things aren't balanced, problems arrive.

Metaknight shouldn't be banned.

Snake shouldn't be banned.

Why shouldn't people try to play as or against those characters when they're playing to win?

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Well, yeah, I know that none of the characters will probably ever surpass these two, but I'm just trying to encourage a little more character development, particularly for lower ranked characters.

It's good that you're trying to do that, but motivation can only get you so far.

Meta Knight and Snake are where they are for a reason. They are dominant characters.

 

[Igneous42]

Thats because they are the best, and basically, you barely stand a chance with anyone else.

Cept yoshi.

Honestly if that were the case I think it'd be better for the competative scene to simply ban those characters. I mean if they are really making it a fighting game with only two practical usable characters then why don't we ban them. I don't play competitively much, so I haven't seen what makes them so OP, but if it's as bad as this board makes it out to be it should be a ban. Other fighting games ban characters all the time.

 

[Corigames]

Before you flame me or anything like that... take note that I completely respect Meta Knight and Snake as characters, and am in no way trying my hand at insulting them...

WHAT?

You are afraid of insulting fictitious characters from a video game?

 

[missingnomaster]

Good characters don't stall the metagame. They stop it.

Let's say I'm freaking amazing with yoshi. I go to a tournament and am owned by snake. I realize that all I do with yoshi will never beat the top snakes and go to play another character. All my potential yoshi skills and practice are wasted because some characters are simply better than others.

except Yoshi doesn't do too poorly against Snake.

Your argument would be true with a different character though.

 

[Admiral Pit]

I once was a MK user, then I stopped using him because I feel more comfortable using non-top tier chars, and to me, it makes me feel good about myself, since I wont be called cheap by using Snake or MK, though I was a decent MK at the time.
I use characters that I like and feel comfortable with which includes the following:

Pit and his great versatility, amazing arrows which you can control/loop/rain, 2 reflectors, Mirror Shield, multiple jumps, gliding ability, and all. Versatility explains it really, and he does well against opponents who'd be stupid to use ITEMS, which Pit will reflect with his Mirror Shield/Angel Ring. His Mirror Shield, when used properly, can be a very useful weapon. He was my choice of #1 Main after losing to projectile spammers/campers while using Bowser. I realized that I'm better with Pit than I am with Bowser.
Some ppl have called Pit cheap and broken after I have beaten them badly with Pit (They are probably used to the Spammy Pits that they dont know a Good Pit til they get pummeled by one, like me), and sometimes they might even use MK and Snake as last resorts, and probably would lose too.

Bowser seemed to be the heavyweight that I loved, mained him in Melee, and still continue using him. Poor Boozer needs more love. He gots potential but there aren't many ppl that actually use Bowser. It doesnt matter if he doesnt rank that high in the tier list, the fact that I like Bowser and his playstyle is good enough.

Wario is a fun char to use, period. He is good in the air, kinda fast for a heavyweight, and does KO decently well. Eat this sharp Beam Sword Wario, I dare you.

There are other chars that I use, but I love these 3 the most now.

I'm not saying that ppl shouldnt use MK and Snake, use a character you are comfortable with by all means, but I dont want to see Snake and MK being used only because of their placement in the tier list. Some others use those 2 just to win, and many ppl like to win. I myself, like to win, but I rather win using the characters that I love, as listed above. It proves that one gots the spirit to use the character they love, and dominate with them, like Futile and his Wario, or SK92 and Falco.

For MoJ: Some say that DK counters both MK and Snake.

 

[Corigames]

I don't play competitively much,

This is your first clue to when knowing that you are in over your head in a discussion.

...but if it's as bad as this board makes it out to be

It really isn't. They are **** good characters, bu8t they can be beaten. Other characters can beat them and there is no positive do this = win strategy. People exagerate, but it isn't far-fetched to say tat they are a step above everyone else as far as character strength goes.

it should be a ban. Other fighting games ban characters all the time.

But we don't. No Smash character has ever been banned and for the simple reason that there hasn't been a situation that calls for it. We aren't other fighting games if you haven't noticed. MK or Snake shouldn't be banned, people should just get better.

 

[CYAN!]

How can people get better against something like that? Not saying its impossible but it greatly discourages people who spend days, on end working on their favorite character and some dude just comes along and picks MK or snake, no working on his skill if at all and literally mops the floor with their face.

Im not saying NOBODY can beat mk or snake, but the sole reason why they are "high" on the tier totem pole is because they are so easy to master! Or atleast grasp, my friend came over yesterday and proved my theory right, atleast to me. He hasent played brawl, dosent even own a wii, he picks up the controller and immediatly goes for MK, i barely beat him in a 4 stock match, 1 stock left. He picks pit, i whip him good, mario... I 4 stock him... He picks snake, he defeats me with 1 stock left.

If this isnt saying anything then what else can be said about this situation. People will cling to the easyest way out of a hard situation, I.E MK and Snake. Ironically i had mk as my first character than went to lucario and yoshi. NOT because of tiers, Though.

As far as bans on characters, when someone can pick up a controller and parade around like a pro after 10 minutes of game play, while another character takes a weeks worth of training for ANYONE not just me or you to master. I say that's a little over powered in learning curve.

Notice i haven't said MK NOR SNAKE SHOULD BE BANNED yet, because there isn't a justifiable reason other than headaches and my/our own personal hatred against unskilled players, or players who have no tactics at all to their fighting. Plain and simple, I think the community itself already looks down on mk and snake users. Lets not give them anymore hell than they need. People will eventually switch, or be beat out when that person they are wailing on descovers a allmighty counter for the two since they are SOOO over used by newer players.

 

[Corigames]

How can people get better against something like that? Not saying its impossible but it greatly discourages people who spend days, on end working on their favorite character and some dude just comes along and picks MK or snake, no working on his skill if at all and litterally mops the floor with their face.

That doesn't actually happen and you know it. And, if you don't, then leave right now before the discussion continues. People who practice, train, learn, and think can beat anyone who just picks up the game. If you are good, you will win. Yes, MK and Snake are a tall order, but if you work hard enough you should be able to beat the. Just get better or stop being dumb.

 

[CYAN!]

That doesn't actually happen and you know it. And, if you don't, then leave right now before the discussion continues. People who practice, train, learn, and think can beat anyone who just picks up the game. If you are good, you will win. Yes, MK and Snake are a tall order, but if you work hard enough you should be able to beat the. Just get better or stop being dumb.

This happened to me, I know its very unlikely but why would i waist my time on a thread to post some bs. I know what im talking about, i mean i 4stocked my friend easily with mario, not so much with mk nor snake. I know im good, not the best.

I am getting better, every day. I really dont see how im being dumb. I would understand that if i had said OMFG SNAKE N MK SHOULD BE BANNED. All im saying is the learning curve for mk, and snake are a lot lower than others. Atleast thats how i feel, i don't know who agrees with me on this. Dont expect anyone to.

 

[Corigames]

This happened to me, I know its very unlikely but why would i waist my time on a thread to post some bs.

It's the internet. What isn't bs?

I know what im talking about, i mean i 4stocked my friend easily with mario, not so much with mk nor snake. I know im good, not the best.

If you are getting beaten by someone playing for the first time while you have been playing for long enough to know that Snake and MK are broken, then I say that you should edit that last sentence out. You aren't good. You should never be beaten by someone just picking up the game without some serious environment, stage, controller, etc. Johns.

 

[CYAN!]

It's the internet. What isn't bs?


If you are getting beaten by someone playing for the first time while you have been playing for long enough to know that Snake and MK are broken, then I say that you should edit that last sentence out. You aren't good. You should never be beaten by someone just picking up the game without some serious environment, stage, controller, etc. Johns.

Corey, im not going to argue on the internet, and i really dont feel like being branded with names off of a fluke match like that. As i said, and ill put this in easy terms.

Me as Yoshi VS his Mario
I won, 4 stocks left out of 4

Me as Yoshi Vs his Meta Knight
I lost, he had 1 stock left and 100%+ damage

Me as Yoshi Vs his snake
I lost yet again, he had 1 stock left, 70ish damage.

Then he chooses pit vs my Yoshi
I won with 3 stocks left, out of 4

it also dosent help i let him use my only game cube controller while i was stuck with the wii remote+ nun chuck

I know im not bad, and i bet my friend had played the game befor though i dont know. Im just saying that those odds arent right. None of those matches were "competitive", items were involved but you have to look at that and go HUH?

Either way im done, really. Ive made my point, not to you but hopefully to someone else out there. Dont quote this, because i wont really care to respond since your beginning to try to drag it to insults.

 

[Corigames]

Like all the harsh things I said to you >_> Like?

...

Like?

If you are bad, you are bad. That's not an insult. If you aren't thinking about the match-up, then you aren't being smart. I fail to see where I was being mean or even insulting. You just have nothing to say other than you thought you were good but when someone picked a good character and played you, you got beat. That has no bearing on the conversation and has no evidence leading to that actually happening! That situation is either being half told, completely fabricated, or exaggerated.

And, no, you havaen't made a point because there was no point.

Edit:
Oh, and evidently, this is me resorting to flames.

You aren't good. You should never be beaten by someone just picking up the game without some serious environment, stage, controller, etc. Johns.

but if you work hard enough you should be able to beat the. Just get better or stop being dumb.

 

[Dumah]

My post here is about how so many character main rates are decreasing over these two. There's been a decrease in the maining of many characters due to their lack of good advantages on MK and Snake or because people are tempted to play these two due to their popularity on the Tier List

I think this is true. People are starting to play more and more as MK or Snake (as well as Falco) because of the huge advantages they have. Nowadays, if you get a challenge or challenge somebody in a match and they say they are looking for "advanced" or "pros", there's a huge probabilty you're playing against a Snake, MK, Falco, or maybe a DDD. And all that's going to happen is heavy spam, camp, or chain grab.

I'd love to see other people branch out and use other chars. The game is so much more interesting when you're using more balanced characters. But it seems that many people are just concerned with a win, regardless of how or who it's with.

 

[Sosuke]

WHAT?

You are afraid of insulting fictitious characters from a video game?

I'm guessing he just said that to avoid any MK/ Snake fanboys.
But idk.

 

[King~]

if MK and snake are so dominating as everyone makes them out to be why is brawl still being played

Dont get me wrong now i believe this game is 5x better than last gen version of smash

i don't understand whats so mind boggling abot MK and snake that people can not think or develop their own strategies aginst these too. i just don't get all the fuss about them.

 

[Dumah]

if MK and snake are so dominating as everyone makes them out to be why is brawl still being played

Dont get me wrong now i believe this game is 5x better than last gen version of smash

i don't understand whats so mind boggling abot MK and snake that people can not think or develop their own strategies aginst these too. i just don't get all the fuss about them.

People play the game still because it's fun. The moment you start wanting to play on a competitive level, the imbalances and frustrations about Brawl are brought to the surface. It's not a matter of developing strategies against those two chars, thousands of people are doing that. It's that some characters...well most of them, have no counters for Snake or MK. And that puts you at a huge disadvantage, right from the start. And unless you are significantly better then your opponent, you'll lose.

Snake's speed and power are disproportionate to his size/weight category. So is Meta Knights.

MK also has the most spammable moves in the game. He can shuttle loop-attack-shuttle loop-attack with no lag inbetween. Snake has huge range for being unarmed, and forces you to play his game every time...no matter who you are.

 

[King~]

Yeah i know all that i play snakes one the daily and MKs every once in a while
they all play virtually the same with some key diffrences here and there, especially MKs.

it dosent seem like anybody is trying to come up with strategies with one of these threads popping up everyother day. it seems to me that people are lookin for the easy path to glory instead of wanting to put in some time and effort in. then when we finally do get someone who does they get discouraged when they lose to one in a tournament.

i personally think we should play the game as is and let it prosper or diminish. whatever we do these threads are not the anwser they dont do anything but restate whats already been stated multiple other times

 

[mutalisk332]

Well, there is an advantage to playing a non-metagame-defining character. Kirby may not be as strong as Snake/Metaknight, but the Snake/Metaknight player won't know the ins and outs of the matchup nearly as well as I do. Granted, it isn't always enough (In my case, because most Snake/Meta mainers are simply better players that I am) but this fact will always give people a reason to explore, develop, and play the less used characters.

 

[tutata]

Meta knight and snake dont always win tourneys, if your not a good player you wont win with snake and metaknight. The smarter player will beat you if hes using a char high in the tier list.

 

[mariofanpm12]

What I'm saying is not that a character like Yoshi, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, etc. will ever BEAT MK and Snake. What I'm sayig tis that they've become the standard on the scale of how good characters are. If a character can't stand up to MK or Snake, if even to an extent, they are considered useless, people don't play them, and they never develop. If low-tier characters were played more often and scored against MK and Snake, they'd have more of a chance to develop and become popular.

 

[Snowstalker]

Snake is outright countered by Olimar, Pikachu, DK, and ROB.

Meta Knight goes even with Snake, Diddy, and Yoshi.

 

[TheTantalus]

Ok, I really don't understand the arguing in this topic. Let's get a couple things straight though-

1. Snake is countered. By a lot of people. Snowstalker mentioned Olimar, Pikachu, DK, and R.O.B. Also, I would go as far to say Zelda, G&W, and Metaknight have good/even matches with Snake. I think Snake will slowly drop down the tier list.

2. Metaknight is not countered easily. Snake is no longer a counter to Meta. I would say only 2 characters are close to even on Meta- DK and Yoshi. Diddy, maybe. Metaknight is REALLY good. He's the only character that really is halting everyone else.

I was at Critical Hit 4 today, an East Coast Regional Championship tournament. The cast that was played was so diverse. Yes, M2K, Plank, and Forte used Meta. Chu used Kirby. Azen used Lucario. Chinesah used DK/Pit. Chillin used Snake. Neo used Marth. Atomsk used Dedede. JCaesar and myself used R.O.B. God is my Rock used G&W. Lobos used Toon Link. Boss used Mario. Data used Falco. Yo'ster used Yoshi. Someone used ZSS in teams against Azen. I saw a Diddy Kong user in singles as well. Meta is not stopping the Meta Game of other characters in Brawl. The cast is still very diverse and everyone is developing their own strategies.

Don't try and fool yourself into thinking that the ban hammer is the only way to solve this. M2K, Forte, and Plank would still **** even if Meta was banned. They would just choose someone else they like to play and dominate. Find away around it. That's why the best players are the best players, is because they have figured it all out and do the best job executing it in the game.

 

[Kiyosuki]

Well I think it's borderline delusional a little for anyone to say Snake and MK arn't a little imbalanced, but they're obviously not going anywhere. I don't think Snake is all -that- unbalanced anyways, but that's just me. I think though if tournies start to look like 90% Meta Knight, and 90% won by Meta Knight and so fourth then people should start reconsidering opinions a bit. It doesn't seem to be quite that way yet though...as of now.

 

[ADHD]

Yes you have to main a character that does well against metaknight or snake to compete if you want a shot of winning a tournament with decent players. Very sad, really sad actually. If these two were annihilated from competitive play it would be nirvana.

 

[nakedsnake]

You can't blame people for picking meta knight expecially at the competitive level where ppl play to win. Though now it is really easy to stick out. If you play someone like zamus and do extremely well people will start to care more then just say a equally good snake player.

 

[GofG]

nakedsnake, everything about you is amazing. I love you.