Why Samus' pummel sucks

[mountain_tiger]

OK, so I imagine most of you know about the fact that Samus cannot pummel attacks Bowser onstage. Well, it turns out that he's not the only oen this affects. Here is a list of all characters that can cause 'ghost pummels' that don't connect.


When 5 pummels are done in quick succession, only three or four will hit.


When done at higher percents in quick succession, every 2nd pummel whiffs.


Occasionally the first pummel misses (though it's rather inconsistent)


Never gets hit by pummels, except the first one, and even then you have to execute it straight after grabbing him for it to work.


When done at higher percents in quick succession, every 2nd pummel whiffs.


Occasionally the first pummel misses (though it's rather inconsistent)


When 7 pummels are done in quick succession, 1 of them will miss.


The first pummel ALWAYS misses.


Occasionally, every second pummel will miss, though it seems rather erratic.


It's worth noting that these rules only apply when both characters are on solid ground. If you grab the opponent while they're in the air, then every pummel you input will connect, regardless of who you're playing against.

My guess is that it's something to do with the pummel being too quick and outspeeding the hurt animation (or something like that), but that doesn't explain why it works erfectly well off-stage. Any ideas?

 

[KillerJawz]

I think the whole working off stage thing is due to the characters animation not hitting the floor? Ionno not to sure on that, but good info to note, I actually never knew about the thing about Falcon o.o

 

[Crystanium]

This is common knowledge. There isn't much else to discuss.

 

[KillerJawz]

This is common knowledge. There isn't much else to discuss.

Its not that common, and it would be nice for someone to answer the question since I myself would really like to know in hopes that we can avoid it.

 

[Darkshadow7827]

I didn't know that. I second samus. So her pummel doesn't hit bowser? Interesting.

 

[Crystanium]

Its not that common, and it would be nice for someone to answer the question since I myself would really like to know in hopes that we can avoid it.

It's been known since 2008.

 

[KillerJawz]

It's been known since 2008.

Then stop trying to increase your post count by just saying that and help out Samus mains who dont know why our pummel has ghost hits.

 

[NO-IDea]

It doesn't matter why. We know that it doesn't hit, therefore we shouldn't expect too much.

Only reason you're pummeling is to unstale other moves. The damage isn't significant, and the act of pummeling prepares them for the throw (meaning less reaction time required to DI.)

Otherwise, common knowledge. Thank you. (Que to close thread.)

 

[KillerJawz]

It doesn't matter why. We know that it doesn't hit, therefore we shouldn't expect too much.

It's this kind of thinking that will keep Samus so low, also as you said, its to unstale other moves. An example - I would to unstale my dtilt against Bowser since ive used it a tad to much, but since I dont know where abouts I should be grabbing bowser to pummel him, It wont be as easy to refresh my other moves.

Im just going to experiment with it myself to see if anything effects it.

Yeah agreed, close please, seems like nobody wants to explore this.

 

[deepseadiva]

Did you guys have this list before? If you didn't, I don't understand why you're being so pricky.

Gee, Samus boards are supportive...

 

[Crystanium]

Did you guys have this list before? If you didn't, I don't understand why you're being so pricky.

Gee, Samus boards are supportive...

We're anything but supportive.

Have at it, ladies and gentlemen. The question is, Do you have the technology?

 

[KillerJawz]

We're anything but supportive.

Have at it, ladies and gentlemen. The question is, Do you have the technology?

YOUR not supportive ^_^. I however am very supportive and are encouraging upcoming Samus mains to check out threads here, get to know everyone and such.

I DUN HAZ THE TECHNOLOGYYYYYY.

 

[NO-IDea]

We're anything but supportive.

Have at it, ladies and gentlemen. The question is, Do you have the technology?

Meh, what Dryn said.

GL with this thread. Dunno what it'll do to be honest. It could/should have been posted in the Q&A thread.

 

[Sago]

please post the video about samus pummels

 

[KillerJawz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fP3ZmNoCL7w&feature=channel_page - Uploaded by myself.

Make sure you have annotations on.

 

[Crystanium]

I'm still waiting to see why the flaw is in the game in the first place, and what's so groundbreaking about pummeling Bowser. Are you still laughing, SuSa?

 

[KillerJawz]

I'm still waiting to see why the flaw is in the game in the first place, and what's so groundbreaking about pummeling Bowser. Are you still laughing, SuSa?

It's not groundbreaking, its just something that will help you if you need your move refreshed on Bowser, since hes so big grabbing him isn't the hardest thing in the world, and now we can get like 2%+ more and the throw damage whilst refreshing our other moves ;o (not like you didn't know this already, but please note I did not post this to go against you, I was just helping out fellow Samus mains)

 

[Crystanium]

It's not groundbreaking, its just something that will help you if you need your move refreshed on Bowser, since hes so big grabbing him isn't the hardest thing in the world, and now we can get like 2%+ more and the throw damage whilst refreshing our other moves ;o (not like you didn't know this already, but please note I did not post this to go against you, I was just helping out fellow Samus mains)

Well, I've played against several good Bowsers, and you'll notice that pummeling early on isn't really that necessary. When Bowser begins to take more damage, you are able to actually pummel him, and it does land.

 

[KillerJawz]

Well, I've played against several good Bowsers, and you'll notice that pummeling early on isn't really that necessary. When Bowser begins to take more damage, you are able to actually pummel him, and it does land.

Yes but some people like myself tend to use dtilt a tad to early so this really does help, since Bowser lives so long we need the dtilt to be fresh.

 

[NO-IDea]

True, it is somewhat helpful. But at the same time, I don't grab in the Bowser MU. Mostly because there are so many other options Samus has to rack damage without staling moves. U-smash and F-air come into play in her heavyweight MUs, and they were never kill moves to begin with. D-tilt also becomes viable, since you shouldn't expect to get a vertical KO anyway.

That's three moves that do 24, 18 and 14% respectively. I'm sorry, but I just don't see the point of grabbing. If they're shielding so much, it's not hard to outspace, or even camp a Bowser with Super Missiles, therefore causing the shield to weaken from extreme usage. And, to top it all off, U-smash and F-air have lingering hitboxes to **** spot dodges. Samus was built to **** every other tall, heavyweight MU. Even the Snake MU isn't as threatening as Snake mains claim it to be. (60-40? More like 55-45 if not 50-50. Yes, I'm encouraging a discussion from Susa which doesn't belong in this thread so we'll settle it else where.)

The information of the ghost pummel for Bowser is irrelevant to how the MU should be played is what I'm trying to get at. Grabbing isn't as big as a deal in the MU as it should be in others.

 

[KillerJawz]

True, it is somewhat helpful. But at the same time, I don't grab in the Bowser MU. Mostly because there are so many other options Samus has to rack damage without staling moves. U-smash and F-air come into play in her heavyweight MUs, and they were never kill moves to begin with. D-tilt also becomes viable, since you shouldn't expect to get a vertical KO anyway.

Valid points indeed, but I tend to not use usmash just because people DI out of it so easily (Fair from the ledge to sliding usmash is just *** though). I tend to find bowser has a easier time recovery horizontally since he doesnt exactly have the best aerials in the world to stop us from following up. So I think vertically koing Bowser is a good option, but then again, I suppose horizontal is a good way aswell since he eats a dair like a ***** and we can easily throw a few bombs/missles out there to keep him busy. However I will say do not underestimate his recovery.

That's three moves that do 24, 18 and 14% respectively. I'm sorry, but I just don't see the point of grabbing. If they're shielding so much, it's not hard to outspace, or even camp a Bowser with Super Missiles, therefore causing the shield to weaken from extreme usage. And, to top it all off, U-smash and F-air have lingering hitboxes to **** spot dodges. Samus was built to **** every other tall, heavyweight MU. Even the Snake MU isn't as threatening as Snake mains claim it to be. (60-40? More like 55-45 if not 50-50. Yes, I'm encouraging a discussion from Susa which doesn't belong in this thread so we'll settle it else where.)

Bowser can easily airdodge/fire breath Super Missles, Bowser doesnt need to shield that much. Agreeing that fair ***** Bowser HARRRDDDD, but its not something that wont become predictable quickly, (I find Zair works beautiful) .

OMG YES THANK YOU SOMEONE SAID IT. The Snake matchup is NOT 60-40 seriously, I've never had any major problems with Snake, not nearly enough to call it 60-40.

The information of the ghost pummel for Bowser is irrelevant to how the MU should be played is what I'm trying to get at. Grabbing isn't as big as a deal in the MU as it should be in others.

Its still a factor, and if your not grabbing at least once, then wtf. Pivot grab seriously ***** Bowser

On a more thread topicy thing note: Samus pummel does not suck.

 

[Crystanium]

Yes but some people like myself tend to use dtilt a tad to early so this really does help, since Bowser lives so long we need the dtilt to be fresh.

Here's a question for you. Does Samus' attacks refresh, even if she's not doing any damage on Bowser? If so, that would be useful.

True, it is somewhat helpful. But at the same time, I don't grab in the Bowser MU. Mostly because there are so many other options Samus has to rack damage without staling moves. U-smash and F-air come into play in her heavyweight MUs, and they were never kill moves to begin with. D-tilt also becomes viable, since you shouldn't expect to get a vertical KO anyway.

Bowser is the heaviest character, but King Dedede beats him in vertical weight, so you can still KO Bowser that way. I do agree with you that u-smash and f-air are useful against Bowser. He's a large target. When I played like six or so matches with Liquid Gen, I noticed he shielded a lot, and I decided I'd grab him. It worked, and I was able to get in pummels, because he had taken damage already.

 

[KillerJawz]

Here's a question for you. Does Samus' attacks refresh, even if she's not doing any damage on Bowser? If so, that would be useful

Bad sarcasm, really. ;.;.......

Im just saying using Dtilt to early in my case would be a drastic lowering to my ko options since I tend to steer clear of Fsmash for that purpose, but If I can refresh a move I want to use for KOING WITH SOMETHING I WILL HARDLY USE FOR RACKING UP DAMAGE then it is a big help.

 

[Crystanium]

Bad sarcasm, really.

Im just saying using Dtilt to early in my case would be a drastic lowering to my ko options since I tend to steer clear of Fsmash for that purpose, but If I can refresh a move I want to use for KOING WITH SOMETHING I WILL HARDLY USE FOR RACKING UP DAMAGE then it is a big help.

I wasn't being sarcastic.

I put a question at the end of, "If so, that would be useful"? Strange. It should have been a statement, not a question. So, if pummeling while not landing hits still refreshed Samus' attacks, that would be useful, I think.

 

[KillerJawz]

I wasn't being sarcastic.

I put a question at the end of, "If so, that would be useful"? Strange.

Thats why I said bad..... >.<....

Why don't you research it? And I was putting a ? on something else but forgot to erase it.

 

[NO-IDea]

The only time I ever grab is when I make a read or when I punish OoS (knowing full well the grab will reach. Wario's f-smash for example.)

Grabbing as a follow-up is just too great a risk to make. I'm not going to chain a grab to a missile cancel if I think they MIGHT shield the missile. I'm going to continue missile canceling until I condition them to spot dodge because their shield is low. And when they spot dodge, I will make the read with a lingering hitbox move (pivot grab, SH f-air, and possibly u-smash, depending on the MU.)

What good is guessing? You might gain a potential 10% on them and set them up for juggling if they shield like you predict? The alternative is they dodge and you're in for some serious string of moves that will result probably more than any throw Samus can do (meaning more than 10%,) not to mention set you up for juggling. Even mathematically speaking, it's not worth it.

You could make the argument that "you're conditioning" them to always spot dodge since they expect the throw. But that conditioning alone cost you what, a good 5 failed attempts? You can make an opponent do what you want without getting hurt you know.

Limiting their options is better than potential risk/reward. The ONLY exception is if they've ALREADY been conditioned to shielding. Case in point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTorQI42uZM&fmt=18

Xyro v. Legan match 3. Legan's been shielding through missile cancels all day. It's about time that conditioning is paid off. Legan gets ***** because he's been too predictable after two matches with Xyro.

And before someone makes a stupid comment that this is theorycraft, it's not. It's how you play the ****ing game with skill. You don't guess. You make a scenario where you know the outcome.

EDIT: As far as what you choose to make your KO option, that's your choice in all honesty. If you want to save your d-tilt fine. Use f-smash more. If you want to save your f-smash as the kill move, fine, use d-tilt more.

Here's some facts to help you make your decision.

D-tilt: 6 frames, 14%
F-smash: 10 frames, 13%

Clearly, D-tilt is the better move. However, concerning this MU, because Bowser is such a heavyweight vertically (not comparing him to other characters, just in general,) I'd much rather end up using d-tilt as a damage racker because A) it's a better move and B) I'm not expecting to kill him vertically. However, because it's a better move, the inverse argument could be stated, meaning it should be saved as the kill option. So, it's all at matter of preference.

On ANOTHER note, ever consider just gimping him? (Oh no, Bowser's Spinning Fortress makes Samus's aerial options iffy.) Ever consider using f-tilt? Reduce your vertical knockback while having decent horizontal knockback? It's not hard to spike a Bowser contrary to what people think.

I've had this argument long ago concerning the Link MU, and people didn't listen until Xyro had his match with Legan. But it's common sense. What's there not to get.

 

[KillerJawz]

Yes but a grab is a grab. Refreshing moves is vital to ANY Samus player, even if its just a quick pummel.

You'll be surprised how much grabbing pays off seriously I got like 30%+ just because I threw a random missle out of a grab, I actually tend to go for a homing missle after the grab straight into another grab, you'll be suprised how many people try to shield it.

Yeah well if you can read well, juggle, if not, spam missles and zair, forces them to evade in the air (since Bowser doesnt have the best aerial game, you can punish). Dthrow works seriously wonders on Bowser honestly.

It really is a matter of how predictable you are and how predictable your opponent is.

Edit: Wow never seen such a discussion on the SAMUS boards, its mindblowing x3

 

[NO-IDea]

Well... what I said isn't concerning Samus mains. It's concerning players in general.

Samus boards are meant to discuss Samus gameplay. They're not meant to teach a player how to play smart. Go read a book or go to the tactical forums for that, if you really want to get better.

EDIT: And yes, successful grabs have a lot of positive potential. And yet, failed grabs have so much negative potential. Why risk it? Why make it 50/50? Why are you putting yourself in a win/lose situation?

Watch matches of yourself and the best way to learn is to understand why you may be giving away free damage. What did you do to put yourself in that situation. What probably happened was you did something wrong and he/she did something right. If you both did something right, it wouldn't be free damage. It would be an exchange, or no damage.

Best personal example I can give is the Samus v G&W MU. I stated in Xyro's thread that I believed it to be even. Why? Because G&W, like R.O.B., has a ceiling in his moveset. His moves are safe on hit, but not safe on start-up. And Samus has an option for practically every approach G&W has. SDI out of the turtle and u-air him. Shield the f-air and grab him. Keep your distance from his smashes. Tech his d-throw.

You lose in the G&W MU because you did something wrong. It wasn't intrinsically against your favor. MK v Samus on the other hand is ridiculous. You could be doing everything right, but if the MK does everything right, MK has more damage output on his moves than you. And MK has reliable kill moves. Inversely, the damage output and kill potential between G&W and Samus is practically even.

 

[KillerJawz]

@ The edited points you made, yeah so your agreeing dtilt is a better option for KOing, so yeah your right, I will need to use Fsmash more, but I just have to find the right time to actually use it ;.;.

Oh gimping bowser isn't that hard tbh, im just saying dont underestimate it. Ftilt works seriously wonders in this MU, it really has more range then I gave it credit for.

I'd hardly call this an arguement, more of a discussion, were both learning of what eachother says so its a win win situation imo.

I put myself into a situation where my grabs are rarely punishable, I dont use them left and right, I use them when im at least 80% sure the opponent cannot avoid, like when bowser misses a bair and has the lag, its an easy grab, I know which characters to grab and which to not. Im not going to grab an MK because he can punish EASILY. Grabbing larger chars like DK and Bowser is just easy.

Thats actually a solid example o.o, but remember as you said earlier, theorycrafting.

Well... what I said isn't concerning Samus mains. It's concerning players in general.

Samus boards are meant to discuss Samus gameplay. They're not meant to teach a player how to play smart. Go read a book or go to the tactical forums for that, if you really want to get better.

Um Im not sure if that was an insult, but either way...... im sorry I just dont get it ;.;.

 

[NO-IDea]

It wasn't an insult, I assure you. It was stating the purpose of this thread in relation to what I said.

As in, what I'm saying really doesn't belong in this thread, but I'll say it anyway since it chained/spawned off of what does. The discussion was about pummeling/grabbing, I pursued more into actual strategy and tactics.

 

[KillerJawz]

It wasn't an insult, I assure you. It was stating the purpose of this thread in relation to what I said.

As in, what I'm saying really doesn't belong in this thread, but I'll say it anyway since it chained/spawned off of what does. The discussion was about pummeling/grabbing, I pursued more into actual strategy and tactics.

Oh okay, read over my edited post for your edits aswell btw.

We should seriously talk more, this is actually useful stuff ;o, especially since we're probably gonna get yelled at for going off topic.

 

[NO-IDea]

Then we can discuss over AIM or something. I don't like cluttering threads with my opinion, since it's not the only one that matters. But people are too lazy or scared to post their own, so it ends up as clutter.

Also, haven't had the chance to wi-fi with you. I generally like to wi-fi with every Samus main at least once, just to get an idea of how they play.

Heads up, I'm terribad at wi-fi. No joke. My mind can't handle the stupid input lag.

 

[Crystanium]

Oh okay, read over my edited post for your edits aswell btw.

We should seriously talk more, this is actually useful stuff ;o, especially since we're probably gonna get yelled at for going off topic.

Rawr! You're going off topic!



Nah, you guys are talking about refreshing moves with the use of pummeling and why you think d-tilt may or may not be the best attack to use against Bowser when you're trying to KO him. It's on topic, still.

 

[KillerJawz]

Then we can discuss over AIM or something. I don't like cluttering threads with my opinion, since it's not the only one that matters. But people are too lazy or scared to post their own, so it ends up as clutter.

Awesome, i'll vm you in a sec with details and stuff.

Also, haven't had the chance to wi-fi with you. I generally like to wi-fi with every Samus main at least once, just to get an idea of how they play.

Yeah I ended up playing Cherry after that xD. Please note I play NOTHING like I do in wifi irl.

Heads up, I'm terribad at wi-fi. No joke. My mind can't handle the stupid input lag.

Oh good lord same, I SD'ed so many times in Cherry's matches. How on earth I won the majority I will never know (Well the fact we were both just being sandbag whores was just awesome)

Rawr! You're going off topic!

T_T!!!!!!!!!!

Nah, you guys are talking about refreshing moves with the use of pummeling and why you think d-tilt may or may not be the best attack to use against Bowser when you're trying to KO him. It's on topic, still.

Oh awesome :3, So yeah dtilt is a good option, how about Utilt though? I find it awesome for edgeguarding him more so then other characters for some reason. I could say because hes bigger, but its pretty hard to hit D3 on the edge for me at least.

 

[Sago]

Then we can discuss over AIM or something. I don't like cluttering threads with my opinion, since it's not the only one that matters. But people are too lazy or scared to post their own, so it ends up as clutter.

Also, haven't had the chance to wi-fi with you. I generally like to wi-fi with every Samus main at least once, just to get an idea of how they play.

Heads up, I'm terribad at wi-fi. No joke. My mind can't handle the stupid input lag.

Threads were made to be cluttered. I also dont think we should have to be afraid of going off topic. Thats the nature of conversation.

Also im a samus main who likes to play wifi

 

[SuSa]

That's three moves that do 24, 18 and 14% respectively. I'm sorry, but I just don't see the point of grabbing. If they're shielding so much, it's not hard to outspace, or even camp a Bowser with Super Missiles, therefore causing the shield to weaken from extreme usage. And, to top it all off, U-smash and F-air have lingering hitboxes to **** spot dodges. Samus was built to **** every other tall, heavyweight MU. Even the Snake MU isn't as threatening as Snake mains claim it to be. (60-40? More like 55-45 if not 50-50. Yes, I'm encouraging a discussion from Susa which doesn't belong in this thread so we'll settle it else where.)

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=251001
Usmash and Fair are easy to SDI out of and punish you.
Safe zones make all but your missile canceled missiles useless. And even then, your missiles are useless at certain distances.

Might I add, very few Snake's actually know this matchup. (I find very few Snake's knowing many low tier/mid tier matchups at all to be honest...)

We KO you FAR before you KO us.

We can take this up somewhere else if you like. But we have an option for all of yours.

Think of yourself as a slightly better TL when it comes to camping, but worse overall. ^^;

tl;dr
Reason why ****ty character is ****ty.

Here's a question for you. Does Samus' attacks refresh, even if she's not doing any damage on Bowser? If so, that would be useful.

For you to ask that question shows how much you know about this game.

 

[Xyro77]

Susa, its a legit question. You dont have to be rude about it.

 

[SuSa]

I would expect him to be somewhat knowledgeable on something as basic as the stale move counter in Brawl.

After all, mods are generally looked up to for having some knowledge of the character, and the game. It had also been mentioned that it's a pro that he found out how to pummel Bowser due to it refreshing moves. If that's a pro, he should have been able to infer that you had to actually hit and do damage (even if it's a decimal) for it to count. But he is to much of an idiot to understand that.

Also, name is SuSa. Capitalization is rather important or I wouldn't have it in my name.

 

[Xyro77]

I would expect him to be somewhat knowledgeable on something as basic as the stale move counter in Brawl.

After all, mods are generally looked up to for having some knowledge of the character, and the game. It had also been mentioned that it's a pro that he found out how to pummel Bowser due to it refreshing moves. If that's a pro, he should have been able to infer that you had to actually hit and do damage (even if it's a decimal) for it to count. But he is to much of an idiot to understand that.

Also, name is SuSa. Capitalization is rather important or I wouldn't have it in my name.

Ill spell it how i want, thanks.

And dryn is allowed to NOT KNOW somthing. Heck, i didnt know u could angle samus's final smash so should i be called an idiot? I agree he isnt the most knowledgeable guy when it comes to samus but it doesnt give you the right to call him names MULTIPLE TIMES just cause he doesnt know something. And on top of that, the pummel thing on on bowser.....yea that is COMPLETELY USELESS info.

Heck, i can quiz you over all sorts of smash trash and make u look a moron. And i bet you could do the same to me, so we are all in the same boat.


I like you, man! But come on, thats kinda of a low blow u gave him.

 

[Crystanium]

I would expect him to be somewhat knowledgeable on something as basic as the stale move counter in Brawl.

After all, mods are generally looked up to for having some knowledge of the character, and the game.

SuSa, it seems to me that all you're doing is trying to start something. First you implicitly call me an idiot. Now this. I wonder what else you'll say next. But, whatever. I'd rather been seen by the people in this room as someone who can take insults and not retaliate, or keep things to myself and move on in life, rather than be perceived as a know-it-all. Because, really, no one likes a know-it-all. I'd rather be like Socrates and admit I know nothing, than to talk about a silly game such as Brawl and think that the knowledge is relevant in daily life.

By the way, moderators are looked up to, not for having some knowledge of the character they represent, but to the qualities of what makes one a moderator. I know I'm not the greatest moderator, but that's fine. Being flawed shows those who aren't moderators that I'm still human. I was chosen, not because of my knowledge about Samus, but because of my calm response to Xyro when he was fed up with this room for making a lot of jokes, rather than working on Samus' metagame. Feel free to say whatever you want, SuSa. You can call me names, you can try to make low blows. I've got better things to do than worry about what you think of me.