Will Brawl's negative impact on the hardcore fans give it a shorter life span?

[Slugma128]

OK, so by now we could safely say that the hardcore fans like Melee a lot better than Brawl. We all know how long Melee was the hottest topic around message boards.

Will Brawl's die earlier than Melee because of this? Was it a mistake by Nintendo to appeal to the masses instead of the fans?

 

[Yuna]

No statistics have been done so we don't really know the ratio. I can only tell you that over here in Europe, we like us some Melee.

Anyway, yes, the "hardcore fans" disliking a game Competitively can undoubtedly shorten its lifespan. The Soul Calibur community switched over to III without exploring it first. They found it sucked and abandoned Soul Calibur altogether.

Yes, Soul Calibur III literally killed off Competitive Soul Calibur worldwide.

 

[Slugma128]

No statistics have been done so we don't really know the ratio. I can only tell you that over here in Europe, we like us some Melee.

Anyway, yes, the "hardcore fans" disliking a game Competitively can undoubtedly shorten its lifespan. The Soul Calibur community switched over to III without exploring it first. They found it sucked and abandoned Soul Calibur altogether.

Yes, Soul Calibur III literally killed off Competitive Soul Calibur worldwide.

Your avatar is... Peach's butt???

I see... but SSBB have not been released in Europe yet, has it? Or are everyone importing it?

What's so bad about SC III? Too many bonus characters, not enough balance?

 

[Yuna]

Your avatar is... Peach's butt???

I see... but SSBB have not been released in Europe yet, has it? Or are everyone importing it?

We've been importing it/burning it since the Japanese version was first released.

What's so bad about SC III? Too many bonus characters, not enough balance?

Everything is worse about SCIII... except the 4-way Guard Impact system, which isn't even new but makes a return from SC.

Balance, physics, options.

 

[Slugma128]

We've been importing it/burning it since the Japanese version was first released.


Everything is worse about SCIII... except the 4-way Guard Impact system, which isn't even new but makes a return from SC.

Balance, physics, options.

In what ways? Balance, how? Physics, how? Options, how?

And BTW, your avatar is suggestive.

 

[Mic_128]

Slug, I'm getting tired with you already.

Brawl is being well explored, and while it's still new, it's clearly competative. I'm not sure how long SCIII lasted (Yuna?) but I think we're going okay.

 

[Slugma128]

Slug, I'm getting tired with you already.

Brawl is being well explored, and while it's still new, it's clearly competative. I'm not sure how long SCIII lasted (Yuna?) but I think we're going okay.

I don't understand you at all. All I do is asking what the fans here think about certain matters and you just freak out saying you're tired of me. What's wrong with discussions?

 

[DRaGZ]

Simply put...no, it doesn't look that way at all.

 

[BrawlBro]

slug quit trying to be so thought out and philosophical without making any points yourself.


Brawl brought in a huge new crowd and saying all the melee fans dislike it is a huge generalization. Now brawl may or not be around for the 7 years or whatever like melee was, but that all depends on how the game develops. People NEED to stop pretending to know where its going to go, the game is not even a year old.

Im sick of posting in melee verse brawl debates its worthless. Just choose the game you like and stick with it, I could give a flying F$%^ which one it is. Both games are so big they will probably have a competitve crowd for awhile so there really is no reason for everyone to have to pick sides here.

 

[Slugma128]

I made a point, but you just have a bad attitude, being hostile like that. Cool down!

 

[Yuna]

Slug, I'm getting tired with you already.

Brawl is being well explored, and while it's still new, it's clearly competative. I'm not sure how long SCIII lasted (Yuna?) but I think we're going okay.

I'm not entirely sure. I think the scene was pretty much dead after 2 years. As in "No Resuscitation Possible"-dead. It started dying out pretty quickly but after 2 years, it was almost gone (I think).

Something similar happened with the Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen-series. GNT:EX was so inferior to GNT4 that the Competitive community (tiny as it is) went back to 4. Then EX2 came out and they made the switch because they'd been "waiting too long for a new game". Guess what, a lot of people quit.

 

[old king coal]

back to the OP, i dont think hardcore fans complaining about things like tripping and lack of hit-stun will shorten the life span. i think it has more to do with whether or not we learn new AT's and such. if the metagame doesn't change people will get bored.

ssb64 = 0-death combo freakout session
melee = japanese seizure fight hour
brawl = "____________"

 

[old king coal]

+2 post count for me because i: stated the obvious and spammed!!! and what are you mods gonna do about it ...what was that....i can get points against me and be banned.... i'll be good guys

 

[Ørion]

back to the OP, i dont think hardcore fans complaining about things like tripping and lack of hit-stun will shorten the life span. i think it has more to do with whether or not we learn new AT's and such. if the metagame doesn't change people will get bored.

I agree, although tripping is definitely an issue, the main thing that the hardcore fans are annoyed about is the lack of ATs (or more accurately, that Sakurai took out wavedashing and auto-l canceling). There are some ATs being discovered, albeit they are not as game-breaking as those above, but the hardcore fans are refusing to see what has been discovered as of yet.

Back to the main issue, I think that although super smash has a large competitive basis, Sakurai probably knew what he was doing when he decided to gear it toward the masses. I'm talking in terms of money here; the data on the game probably showed that it would be more worthwhile to get the majority of the people who do not play competitively to buy the game rather than those who really take the game seriously.

 

[Yuna]

I agree, although tripping is definitely an issue, the main thing that the hardcore fans are annoyed about is the lack of ATs (or more accurately, that Sakurai took out wavedashing and auto-l canceling). There are some ATs being discovered, albeit they are not as game-breaking as those above, but the hardcore fans are refusing to see what has been discovered as of yet.

Back to the main issue, I think that although super smash has a large competitive basis, Sakurai probably knew what he was doing when he decided to gear it toward the masses. I'm talking in terms of money here; the data on the game probably showed that it would be more worthwhile to get the majority of the people who do not play competitively to buy the game rather than those who really take the game seriously.

A question arises:
What difference does it make to the masses if Wavedashing is in the game? Does Joe Blow enjoy the game less because of an AT he doesn't care about is in the game? Or does he just (logically) ignore it and go on his merry little way enjoying the game? They don't have to play the people who use said "ATs". And if they do happen to come up against one on With Anyone, there's always resetting since there's no ranking system, anyway.

The fact that a game can be Competitive doesn't mean that it cannot be played casually for a lot of fun. Gearing it more towards the masses would be throwing in a lot of fanservice (items, assist trophies, stickers, stages, taunts, etc.) and leaving it at that.

Removing and molding the game in a way that kinda hinders Competitive play is just screwing Competitive players over.


A deep game can be enjoyed by both those who like deep games and those who just want mindless fun. A shallow game can only be enjoyed by those who want mindless fun.

 

[SenorPresidente]

How big was the soul calibur community compare to the smash one.

 

[Yuna]

How big was the soul calibur community compare to the smash one.

Dunno. I was never a member of the international SC-community. The Swedish Competitive SC-community was roughly 1/2 to 2/3 as large as the Swedish Competitive Smash community, but that's not really saying much.

 

[Patsie]

back to the OP, i dont think hardcore fans complaining about things like tripping and lack of hit-stun will shorten the life span. i think it has more to do with whether or not we learn new AT's and such. if the metagame doesn't change people will get bored.

ssb64 = 0-death combo freakout session
melee = japanese seizure fight hour
brawl = "____________"

First, OP: SHUT THE HELL UP. You can't expect people to give a sh*t about what you're saying when you waltz in and toss around assertions like it's no tomorrow. Can you please show where you got the statistics for the majority of the "hardcore fans" are leaving the game?

The thing I can't stand is that, BEFORE BRAWL WAS RELEASE IN AMERICA, people were saying "That's it, we've found all there is in this game, Brawl sucks."

Since then, u-smash dash cancelling compeltely altered certain character playstyles (Snake/Shiek/etc) later, and the infinite second jump looks like it will completely change some characters' (especially characters like Peach) gameplay. And the game isn't even half of a year old, but people get pissy and criticize a lack of a competitive basis.

I still say let the community decide by attending tournaments, and so far attendence looks solid. People can go back to Melee, but I'm 95% sure that the tournament community will be too small to gather enough players to be something worthwhile.

 

[Strivus]

Dunno. I was never a member of the international SC-community. The Swedish Competitive SC-community was roughly 1/2 to 2/3 as large as the Swedish Competitive Smash community, but that's not really saying much.

Yuna is right about the Soul Calibur, SC III completely killed it, even here in Canada. I was part of the competitive scene, (albeit I joined kinda late, Raphael and Nightmare ftw) and after SC III, every stopped playing just because how BAD it was. Everything about it felt terrible.

It died so bad that not even Soul Calibur IV isn't going to bring it back (what with the OP Vader and Yoda)

 

[Seventh Sword]

Yuna is right about the Soul Calibur, SC III completely killed it, even here in Canada. I was part of the competitive scene, (albeit I joined kinda late, Raphael and Nightmare ftw) and after SC III, every stopped playing just because how BAD it was. Everything about it felt terrible.

It died so bad that not even Soul Calibur IV isn't going to bring it back (what with the OP Vader and Yoda)

Don't talk like there's no hope for competitive Soul Calibur, you'll make me sad. But yeah, people predict Brawl will have a short lifespan, but I'm wondering what the view was on Melee before Wavedashing was discovered.

 

[Yuna]

Don't talk like there's no hope for competitive Soul Calibur, you'll make me sad. But yeah, people predict Brawl will have a short lifespan, but I'm wondering what the view was on Melee before Wavedashing was discovered.

SCII eradicated the SC-scene worldwide. America, Canada (apparantly), Sweden, all of Europe... heck, probably Japan as well.

SC4 has to be the best SC ever in order to bring SC back to its glory days.

First, OP: SHUT THE HELL UP. You can't expect people to give a sh*t about what you're saying when you waltz in and toss around assertions like it's no tomorrow. Can you please show where you got the statistics for the majority of the "hardcore fans" are leaving the game?

Actually, he never said they were leaving the game.

The thing I can't stand is that, BEFORE BRAWL WAS RELEASE IN AMERICA, people were saying "That's it, we've found all there is in this game, Brawl sucks."

Because some of us were playing it?

Since then, u-smash dash cancelling compeltely altered certain character playstyles (Snake/Shiek/etc) later, and the infinite second jump looks like it will completely change some characters' (especially characters like Peach) gameplay. And the game isn't even half of a year old, but people get pissy and criticize a lack of a competitive basis.

You mean Gatling Cancel (I will not call it the DLX-Cancel)? It was discovered, like, a week after the game was released in Japan if not even earlier... and it's not like it "completely altered" any playstyles. "Infinite second jumping" doesn't actually do much and how the hell does it change Peach's gameplay, anyway?! Her 2nd jum pis almost none-existent so anything she does from a "infinite 2nd jump" will force her to land right afterwards, anyway!

We have probably hundreds of people constantly trying to find out new techs with Brawl. Unless it's so weird and glitchy it requires 24 different inputs simoultaneously, we've probably seen the majority of all there is to see about Brawl.

And that doesn't factor in the fact that the game engine itself restricts us. Even if we were to find new techniques, the game engine would still limit them a lot.

I direct you to my signature.

 

[Slugma128]

A question arises:
What difference does it make to the masses if Wavedashing is in the game? Does Joe Blow enjoy the game less because of an AT he doesn't care about is in the game? Or does he just (logically) ignore it and go on his merry little way enjoying the game? They don't have to play the people who use said "ATs". And if they do happen to come up against one on With Anyone, there's always resetting since there's no ranking system, anyway.

The fact that a game can be Competitive doesn't mean that it cannot be played casually for a lot of fun. Gearing it more towards the masses would be throwing in a lot of fanservice (items, assist trophies, stickers, stages, taunts, etc.) and leaving it at that.

Removing and molding the game in a way that kinda hinders Competitive play is just screwing Competitive players over.


A deep game can be enjoyed by both those who like deep games and those who just want mindless fun. A shallow game can only be enjoyed by those who want mindless fun.

Thing is, because Brawl is an online game, I think Sakurai removed some techniques because he wanted the game to be easier to learn. I agree, what fun would it be when you have players who have the possibility to spend houndreds and even thousands of hour into a game to trying to perfect some techniques that the masses never would have the time to learn properly? The result would be the usual:

A small elite group is enjoying the game and the mass feel like they can't compete in any way. By making the game easier to play and learn, Sakurai removed some barriers between players, making the game more attractive to compete in for MOST players.

And seriously, someone who really trains at Brawl should have absoloutely no problem taking on a newcomer. At the same time, a newcomer doesn't need to spend 1,000 hours into training up their ability to WD and LC.

The fact that you're so mad, is it because pro players are losing status because Brawl is easier to learn and handle?

 

[Yuna]

Thing is, because Brawl is an online game, I think Sakurai removed some techniques because he wanted the game to be easier to learn. I agree, what fun would it be when you have players who have the possibility to spend houndreds and even thousands of hour into a game to trying to perfect some techniques that the masses never would have the time to learn properly? The result would be the usual:

A small elite group is enjoying the game and the mass feel like they can't compete in any way. By making the game easier to play and learn, Sakurai removed some barriers between players, making the game more attractive to compete in for MOST players.

And seriously, someone who really trains at Brawl should have absoloutely no problem taking on a newcomer. At the same time, a newcomer doesn't need to spend 1,000 hours into training up their ability to WD and LC.

The gap between a Competitive player and a Casual player is still there. Casual players will not know that airdodging saves you, Casual players will not DI, Casual players will not know how to combo properly and how to properly get out of combos. Casual players will still not know how to edgeguard properly or how to abuse Super Armor properly, among other things.

No matter how much you "dumb it down", the skill gap will still be there. Those who dedicate hundreds and thousands of hours into learning every aspect of the game will still crush those who do not. The only way to prevent this is to make the game entirely random where it truly is "Anyone can win at any time".

The fact that you're so mad, is it because pro players are losing status because Brawl is easier to learn and handle?

I'm "mad" because he made a very boring game.

I could care less if it's less technical. I wasn't even a very technical Melee-player. It's just plain boring for me to play. Seriously, Slugma, your misguided impression of what the "old Melee pros" feel seem to be based on the opinions of a bunch of newcomers posing as "old Melee pros" or who just think they are.

Anyone with half a brain would know that those who dedicate themselves to Brawl will still win against those who do not and not claim that in Brawl, a n00b can beat a pro.

 

[Bud]

fast brawl isn't boring, at least for me and my friends, though weve had this argument before yuna.

 

[180OP]

The competitive scene will not die for Brawl because online was a huge leap from online-less Melee. The only difference is that the competitive crowd is a different one this time around.

It is unfair to say that the competitive players haven't given Brawl a chance before choosing to go back to Melee. I'm pretty sure they tried to get the most out of the game before giving their assessment. Brawl has a very closed environment, so chance discovering True ATs is very bleak. I don't there are any ATs besides DI and Snake dashing that you must know to expand your game. In Melee the same cannot be said. If you didnt know most of the ATs you most likely would be chewed up and spat out. Even if you did know them but didn't know how to implement them, still chewed up and spat out.

 

[Slugma128]

As I said too, expert players will always win over novice players, but the gap isn't as huge in Brawl as it is in Melee. Plus, there are more groups than just experts and casual players. There are hardcore experts and people who know how to air dodge, DI and more. It's the difference between these two groups that will be signifiant smaller in Brawl. And any novice could train (not for too long) to become "semi pro". I hope you know what I mean with that.

About the second quote, why is it so boring to play for you? The loss of speed? You said it wasn't the loss of the techniques. Is the invincible combos?

 

[Supercakes]

Right now Brawl is pretty strong, but if we don't find something that makes this game more exciting, it's probably gonna die and I don't see Melee coming back because the Melee community shrunk tenfold.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

How about item and FFA tourneys?
Snake bombfests?
And a personal favorite, FFA Snake Bombfest - a tourney on large stages (New Pork City and Hyrule temple) where the only items are bombs and the only characters are four snakes simulateously.

Mind you, this doesn't make for a very competitive game, but its pretty **** fun.

I have to say, the only thing that gets old is playing the tourney legal style of Brawl over and over. And maybe the battle of the fans.

 

[Supercakes]

Games that aren't really played competitively last for like 3 months.

Games that are played competitively at a high level last for 7 years.

Or hell even longer if you look at Street Fighter.

 

[Bud]

supercakes, play fast brawl with your friends, honestly I think many people who argued against me when I brought that up still have never tried it. It has so many advantages, the main one is it is not as slow. What I have found in the month Ive been playing only fast brawl I can say, Combos work soooo much better in fast brawl. The opponent has such a smaller window to air/spot dodge out of the combo leaving him only with DI which is easily predictable. The more aggressive strategies become much more effective against defensive ones and the gameplay is much faster. It may seem too fast your first game, but after 5-10 games it will feel like its the same speed as melee, thought its a little faster. It definitly allows there to be a bigger skill gap, noobs cant handle fast brawl. So I say, please try it out, im recording many videos this summer and am going to make a fast brawl thread, because the games just look/feel so much better and I am having way more fun than I did with regular brawl. I am not saying it should be the standard, yet, but Im saying try for a day (against a real person, CP keep their reaction speed so its still kinda hard to combo them, but it makes playing a human much more skill based in my opinion/games with my friends.

 

[Slugma128]

Games that aren't really played competitively last for like 3 months.

Games that are played competitively at a high level last for 7 years.

Or hell even longer if you look at Street Fighter.

For who? Super Mario Bros. has lasted 20 years for myself.

 

[Yuna]

I have to say, the only thing that gets old is playing the tourney legal style of Brawl over and over. And maybe the battle of the fans.

This has nothing to do with anything. We're talking about the Competitive lifespan of the game, not how long people will still be playing it for. People still play Soul Calibur III... the Compettiive community is just long dead and buried.

As I said too, expert players will always win over novice players, but the gap isn't as huge in Brawl as it is in Melee. Plus, there are more groups than just experts and casual players. There are hardcore experts and people who know how to air dodge, DI and more. It's the difference between these two groups that will be signifiant smaller in Brawl. And any novice could train (not for too long) to become "semi pro". I hope you know what I mean with that.

On a technical level, the gap is smaller, because, really, there ain't much technique to be used.

But on a mindgames and metagame level, the gap is still huge. New players still do not know what is safe and what is not, how hitboxes work (extended and disjointed ones), how camping works, etc., etc., etc. The gap is still huge.

About the second quote, why is it so boring to play for you? The loss of speed? You said it wasn't the loss of the techniques. Is the invincible combos?

I'll resort back to the "I have already answered this one gazillion times already, as have many others, do some research".

 

[Slugma128]

I despise your attitude, Yuna.

 

[Mic_128]

When you've had to repeat yourself because people keep making topics on pretty much the same thing, you generally get that attitude Slug.

 

[Yuna]

For who? Super Mario Bros. has lasted 20 years for myself.

We're talking about the Competitive lifespan of a game, not how long people can possibly go on playing it for.

 

[Slugma128]

I'm not here very often, and I have no idea what topics have been made and what not. A little more friendly attitude isn't bad, you know? It's almost like you don't want rookies on these boards.

Still, I have played Super Mario Kart for ten years with my friend, never get enough of it. It's as fun every time, and none of us are evolving nowadays.

 

[Yuna]

I'm not here very often, and I have no idea what topics have been made and what not. A little more friendly attitude isn't bad, you know? It's almost like you don't want rookies on these boards.

No, I'm just sick and tired of you constantly demanding answers be given to you on a silver platter for questions easily answered even though we've asked you repeatedly to go do some research on your own first.

From the sounds of it, you haven't done any research about anything pertaining to Brawl.

Still, I have played Super Mario Kart for ten years with my friend, never get enough of it. It's as fun every time, and none of us are evolving nowadays.

What part of the Competitive lifespan of a game can be vastly smaller than its casual lifespan was too hard for you to grasp? Soul Calibur III is dead... dead and buried. Competitive SCIII that is. People still play it casually... a lot. But the Competitive community died out years ago.

 

[Supercakes]

For who? Super Mario Bros. has lasted 20 years for myself.

I never knew that Super Mario Bros. was competitive.

Don't get me wrong I like Brawl, especially when I play Fox and Sheik because they are Melee-esque characters in a floaty campy game, but Melee is just love and I don't even play it competitively.

If Brawl was never released, Melee would still be strong and we wouldn't be talking about Brawl and Melee dying out.

 

[studly]

hey slugma...im a little bit newer like yourself and i recently ventured into the old melee forums and read about the ssbm competitive community and then i looked at the ones form when brawl came out...i have allot more respect for Yuna and the players like him

maybe you need to go check them out

 

[Slugma128]

hey slugma...im a little bit newer like yourself and i recently ventured into the old melee forums and read about the ssbm competitive community and then i looked at the ones form when brawl came out...i have allot more respect for Yuna and the players like him

maybe you need to go check them out

Him? You mean her.

And I'm not into this competetive community at all. I just play for fun and to beat my friends.