Wolf: MU Chart Feedback

[Ishiey]

So basically, it should be somewhat common knowledge that the BBR is about to start working on the second MU chart. I figured it might be helpful to collect the general opinions of Wolf mains on our MUs, since I'm cool like that.

For reference, here is our MU spread from V1:

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

If you disagree with a MU, do what Seagull did below; put the character plus a small explanation on why you feel their placement should change :3 Making a new MU chart might be a bit of a pain, but if you want to do that, that's pretty cool too. Please don't get too carried off into discussion about the actual MUs themselves though :x

 

[Seagull Joe]

Current:

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

My opinion:

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

I really do think we're even with . We have nothing special on him, he's heavy, and his jabs string on us quite well. San makes me think it's even at least.

is clearly the "hardest" LT and does formidable against . He does have his shortcomings though like lack of ability to kill and a bad recovery.

and I've always found even... is -1 vs . We're a better vs because we not only have a projectile, but we can gimp , we're heavy, and we catch nanerz easily with our aerials. we just get him so well in the air and put him offstage frequently with our Dthrow.

sucks. As long as we camp and space Bairs, he is outclassed.

isn't too good vs us. We outprioritize him frequently and our air mobility circumvents his abilities as sad as that may be.

and have nothing fancy on us to make it -1.

we can camp and outbox easily. Avoiding the grab always comes into play here.

we have some special technique called SHINING, which helps us entirely vs all of 's approaches. We also can always DI his Bair up and shine into a free aaa. As long as you don't spotdodge, this match isn't that hard and should be even (Or maybe even +1 O_O).

in no way has problems with unless he doesn't know the matchup. When he does it becomes a spacing and battle of who can outsmart who. Even...

has problems getting the grab on us because we space aerials so well. The moves can't always be a 0-to death because they are circumstantial (Though not situational, which is a big difference).

is clearly as bad as because he outspaces us, we can't kill him, and he gays us so well.

We beat . We outbox her (King Beef's phrase) and are heavy. Makes this matchup easily +1 .

I think we also beat , , and .

We beat 's approaches easier, make him approach, and he's light. We also gimp him.

we outprioritize and make him cry when he's trying to get back on stage.

we just combo like a storm and as long as we don't fall for dumb ****, then we win. We camp and force him to approach with his limited approach options, Dthrow him to bad positions, and his shield is the worst in the game so we stab him easily.

 

[Ishiey]

are both -2 imo, and is -3. D3 is really blatant, Wario and Pikachu have a much harder time getting the grab and don't really have anything too worrisome aside from the CG. Also, bair dancing works better against them, that's a huge plus ;D

are all 0 imo. Stages help for ICs and the typical IC stuff too, G&W and Pit just don't really make any sense, and ROB is near the harder end of even but clearly easier than the rest of our -1s.

might be 0, I find this to be among our easier -1s but that's probably because I've never played one that was particularly good at the MU.

and to +1. Seagull covered my thoughts, mostly. I'd also like to add that TL doesn't like bair

and are 0 with a slight lean to +1 imo, it's just that DK's punishment/survival are so great and Kirby... idk what to say in Kirby's defense lol, I just don't feel comfortable putting it at +1 I guess.

is 0.

I don't think is 0, but I can see people making a case for that because it's relatively borderline. Same goes for going to +1

gets pooped on SO HARD by bair, I'd say +2 at least.

are all leaning towards +2 imo. Not too insistent on these MUs though, I'm no expert with them :x

is +1 imo. I don't see why it'd be +2 tbh, PT is pretty underrated but there are next to no good PTs so yeah

does worse than so I'd either put him in +3 or move all of +3 into +2. Preferrably the latter, since I don't think we beat these characters like D3 beats us :x

 

[~ Gheb ~]

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:

Wario / Dedede should go without saying although Warios advantage is more "theoretical" *at the moment*. Dedede just ***** us. Pikachu is a mediocre, overrated character and is way too bad to have a +3 against a character as good as Wolf
Snake will never be even. I might be biased here because I absolutely hat fighting that broken piece of **** character but I'm leaning more towards a -2 than a 0. Actually, the -1 we supposedly have against Snake is a lot more theoretical than our -1 against MK [which has lots of results as a back-up whereas Snake does not]. We will never be quite able to go even with Diddy, Falco and Sheik either.

I think generally all Wolf players have a very similar opinion on whom we lose to and to what extent. The question is more whom we actually beat and how hard we do that. Some things are really blurry such as Wolf vs Ike / GW / Kirby - they could all be 0 but they could also be +1 or just some of them are +1 and some of them 0. Can't really tell for sure.
Likewise, Link and Jigglypuff may actually only be +1 and I'm sure we don't have a +3 against Zelda. She's not actually *that* bad and I'm fairly confident she can play the match-up. If we have +3 against anybody then it's Falcon, Samus or Ganondorf [in that order]. Falcon's our easiest imo, followed by either Ganon or Samus [leaning Samus atm].

 

[tekkie]

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:

i think these would be my changes.

-the -3/-2 thing just seems like basically "they **** wolf" and i think wario is ultimately a little easier to deal with than the other two.

-marth has insane juggling tools, can kill wolf or at least get him in a really bad position easily with tippers, is great at chasing wolf's landing, and ultimately when played safe is extremely hard to get close to. lot of characters i'd move from -1 to 0 before marth (rob, pit)

-ice climbers: sopo grab until high percent, uair juggle is good, specials are really good against wolf. seriously, this isnt even

-ike's jab kind of does a lot of crappythings to wolf. i remember watching kain have issues with mr. doom; i think played carefully ike can do fine against wolf. 0 or +1 wolf's favor

-gnw isn't the worst thing on the planet, even if he's a giant sack of ****. shine works plenty but his setups/pseudocomboes are still really good, and the whole "good read with fsmash = death at 110" thing is ridiculous, especially for a character with piss poor recovery

- +2 for wolf is totally true if it wasn't for squirtle. squirtle by itself is probably wins over wolf slightly and that should tip it to -1

 

[Seagull Joe]

is actually more difficult then Ish. That's why I put as +2 and left +1.

I have experience from Pink Fresh and Mekos for 's. For 's I have Shaky, Coney, and Gimr.

I never noticed was +2. That's probably +1 because of lmao.

We +3 and because we completely shut down their approaches and wall them. The only person I can vouch for having experience even is JJ whose played Riot.

I would've put as +1 as well@Gheb, but I feel like it's even. This is probably ChuDat bias though. Everytime he aerials our shield we get an Fsmash punish though. And the gonzo combo doesn't work if you DI it correctly. We also kill him early and get him with Fair cause his airspeed sucks. But I'm gonna leave this one as even in my opinion. I'll let Ish deal with that matchup primarily.

Still don't know why you think is -1 Tekkie. Both the 's I've played Kadaj/Neo have gone vs me now. That must say something if they switched off their main from an even matchup to an advantageous one for them. Even Tiger prefers against me to .

Frankly, most 's opinions are quite similar. Mine is only slightly different from Gheb cause I think / are +3, / are even matchups, we are possibly +1 with , and that we are even with .

 

[Deleted member]

are both -2 imo, and is -3. D3 is really blatant, Wario and Pikachu have a much harder time getting the grab and don't really have anything too worrisome aside from the CG. Also, bair dancing works better against them, that's a huge plus ;D

are all 0 imo. Stages help for ICs and the typical IC stuff too, G&W and Pit just don't really make any sense, and ROB is near the harder end of even but clearly easier than the rest of our -1s.

might be 0, I find this to be among our easier -1s but that's probably because I've never played one that was particularly good at the MU.

and to +1. Seagull covered my thoughts, mostly. I'd also like to add that TL doesn't like bair

and are 0 with a slight lean to +1 imo, it's just that DK's punishment/survival are so great and Kirby... idk what to say in Kirby's defense lol, I just don't feel comfortable putting it at +1 I guess.

is 0.

I don't think is 0, but I can see people making a case for that because it's relatively borderline. Same goes for going to +1

gets pooped on SO HARD by bair, I'd say +2 at least.

are all leaning towards +2 imo. Not too insistent on these MUs though, I'm no expert with them :x

is +1 imo. I don't see why it'd be +2 tbh, PT is pretty underrated but there are next to no good PTs so yeah

does worse than so I'd either put him in +3 or move all of +3 into +2. Preferrably the latter, since I don't think we beat these characters like D3 beats us :x

I pretty much agree with this, except for one little thing. I'd put Lucas at +1. He's a much harder fight than Ness if the Lucas plays campy. :/

 

[MegaRobMan]

My opinion: I ripped off people pretty hard, but I made some alterations.


-100

Spoiler

I'm a fan of running gags.

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

Obviously I'm not stupid enough to actually put MK as even, but I think it's the easiest of the -1 matchups here, other than maybe when Shielda decides to play as Zelda, what a bad decision (gets D-smashed). Snake is stage dependent and could be ALMOST even at times but not really.

I really do think we're even with . We have nothing special on him, he's heavy, and his jabs string on us quite well. Mr. Doom ***** me, but I'm a mid-level player.
is clearly the "hardest" LT and does formidable against
I've always found even, Port City ***** me though.

sucks. As long as we camp and space Bairs, he is outclassed.
isn't too good vs us. We outprioritize him frequently and our air mobility circumvents his abilities as sad as that may be.
and have nothing fancy on us to make it -1.

-I have no idea how this matchup works and I've played Fino/Cook before, they both say they hate it and how close the match is, but I'm getting JV 2 stocked every single time. However, our blaster is godly vs them, so I can see even.

is clearly WORSE THAN because he outspaces us, we can't kill him, and he gays us so well.

We beat . We outbox her (King Beef's phrase) and are heavy. Makes this matchup easily +1 .

I think we also beat , , and .

is easy if you play gay, learn to play gay.

are both -2 imo, and is -3.

-1s-Typ_Ex ***** me. Now I play Marth vs

is 0-Pit is a charcter I've played a lot against, both scrubs and quality opponents.

does worse than so I'd either put him in +3


Pikachu is a mediocre, overrated character and is way too bad to have a +3 against a character as good as Wolf

Snake will never be even. I might be biased here because I absolutely hat fighting that broken piece of **** character, Joker ****.

is actually more difficult then Ish. That's why I put as +2 and left +1.

I have experience from FAE, he's made me a believer, at least vs Wolf.

IC are broken, stupid, ban him. and the birds. IC-I see it as -1

 

[_Kadaj_]

... I went MK one match, whilst beating you 3-0 all Marth before.

It's not impossible for Wolf to win but it's not an even MU

 

[_Kain_]

... I went MK one match, whilst beating you 3-0 all Marth before.

It's not impossible for Wolf to win but it's not an even MU

It is even. Don't see how you have an adv. Everything you do to Wolf he can do back too Marth. Wolf kills faster is the only real big difference in the MU imo. Your also like the only Marth to think it's your adv

 

[MysteryTigerTeen]

I agree with Seagull on this, I know the mu with Marth but Mk is SO much easier. I think it's even due to the fact that wolf can punish Marth for almost every approach, can kill earlier, live longer and having a projectile. If the wolf plays correctly aka like Seagull, than this shouldn't be in Marths favor.

 

[Laem]

My changes:
-2
0
0
1
2

Not that many changes.
Pika and d3 are both ghey but borderline doable, which is what -2 means to me.
some chars from -1 to 0 cuz idk why they were -1 in the first place
Oli's tough and quite a good character, at best 0 imo.
wolf aint amazing vs pt mario and link. PT has squirtle, mario got stuff(gimmicks) that works well vs wolf. Those and Link I feel are harder to beat than falcon jiggs etc.
Zelda's harder than Ganon.

 

[castorpollux]

i don't think there are enough wofl players or marth players to even make this judgement.

in the end it's all speculation.


When will people realize that we know nothing about this game to make any of these calls (though people are starting to realize how much the rules bend towards MK)

 

[Ishiey]

We're only going off of what we know, JJ. There are very few instances of people playing the MU at top levels, so we use high-ish levels instead. And imo there are enough instances of mid/high level play to insinuate that Wolf/Marth is even. None of this is actually a confirmed fact, just like the tier list it is a collection of opinions from players that tend to know what they're talking about.

Also, why don't you post anymore

 

[PMC66]

is actually more difficult then Ish. That's why I put as +2 and left +1.

I have experience from Pink Fresh and Mekos for 's. For 's I have Shaky, Coney, and Gimr.

I never noticed was +2. That's probably +1 because of lmao.

We +3 and because we completely shut down their approaches and wall them. The only person I can vouch for having experience even is JJ whose played Riot.

I would've put as +1 as well@Gheb, but I feel like it's even. This is probably ChuDat bias though. Everytime he aerials our shield we get an Fsmash punish though. And the gonzo combo doesn't work if you DI it correctly. We also kill him early and get him with Fair cause his airspeed sucks. But I'm gonna leave this one as even in my opinion. I'll let Ish deal with that matchup primarily.

Still don't know why you think is -1 Tekkie. Both the 's I've played Kadaj/Neo have gone vs me now. That must say something if they switched off their main from an even matchup to an advantageous one for them. Even Tiger prefers against me to .

Frankly, most 's opinions are quite similar. Mine is only slightly different from Gheb cause I think / are +3, / are even matchups, we are possibly +1 with , and that we are even with .

my opinion on his MU's is actually identical to yours except :Falco: I think is even it used to be 60-40 because falco could 0-death wolf but the chain grab to ledge then spike crap doesn't work if you tech the spike and land on stage, :Wolf: out reaches :Falco: and can actually camp back with his blaster and reflector. That and Wolf's D-smash is a heck of alot more relaiable killing than Falco's F-smash, i'd say though the biggest problem would be Falco's up smash but wolf is heavy so an uncharged one won't kill him easily.

i'll put mine down later maybe for all the characters but mine is basically Seagull's with :Falco: being even

 

[Seagull Joe]

can never be even because he has a 0-to death that isn't hard to do on us. Not everyone can SDI like a god back onto the stage and has the worst meteor cancel in the game, but we can up b, which will be edgeguarded...I don't think a matchup with a Cg that powerful and easy to perform on a multitude of stages would allow this matchup to be even. I always say it's even after 45% for .

 

[Ishiey]

The SDI really isn't that hard if you do it properly. But there are other issues, like if he doesn't spike you and you try to SDI you fair to your doom, and if he hits you off of a platform while you're platform camping he can set up a laser lock.

 

[MegaRobMan]

If I ever had to play a Wolf as not Wolf, I'd pick Marth. 3 Grabs-Spike is godly, I pulled one of those off last night against Future's Wolf and he looked dumbfounded. I still think it's in Wolf's by like 55/45 favor, but if you just camp grabs it could get tough, but not as stupid as Falco or Wario.

 

[castorpollux]

if snake vs snake isn't an even matchup, then there are no even matchups in this game at all =O

 

[MegaRobMan]

Link VS Dark Link is ~100-0

 

[Zync]

My smash training mate plays Plataform camping is really easy for Just watch not to be too close to the plataform edges, or he will do the lock, or even worse, grab you while youre on the stage plataform. Just be extra careful and falco will have a bad time, specially if hes looking solely for that grab

 

[Ishiey]

New table because I can. In general, I tried to order characters by difficulty in their groups, but this doesn't hold true as much when you get towards the +2 group. The split up groups (ex. -1/0) mean that I'm open to either category, depending on who puts up the better argument

MU| Characters
-3 |
-2 |
-1 |
-1 / 0 |
0 |
0 / +1 |
+1 |
+1 / +2 |
+2|

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Put Mario @ +1
Link @ +1/+2
Falcon, Samus and Ganon @ +2/+3

Imo

 

[Deleted member]

I feel like Sonic is edging more towards +1/+2.

 

[MegaRobMan]

Put Mario @ +1
Link @ +1/+2
Falcon, Samus and Ganon @ +2/+3

Imo

I feel like Sonic is edging more towards +1/+2.

All of these and I think that list has my opinion covered. Maybe Luigi to the +1/+2.

Also, keeping the (-1/0, +1/+2, etc...) makes this list seem more accuate IMO.

 

[Ishiey]

I agree, but the thing is that no matter what number system we use, there will be 60/40s or -1s that are harder/easier than other MUs in the same category :/ If we could, I'd like to just make a tier list for each character's MUs, but that's a bit tricky and wouldn't really work out in MU chart format, so we go with this :x

 

[castorpollux]

I agree, but the thing is that no matter what number system we use, there will be 60/40s or -1s that are harder/easier than other MUs in the same category :/ If we could, I'd like to just make a tier list for each character's MUs, but that's a bit tricky and wouldn't really work out in MU chart format, so we go with this :x

or adopt my idea of not giving a dam about a MU chart at all O_O


Nobody knows enough about the game to make that judgement call... Unless you've literally played a matchup for 10 hours every day since the inception of brawl (and nobody has done this yet)

 

[Seagull Joe]

But you do that all the time for dittos JJ =). So what's that matchup?

 

[castorpollux]

99:1 me

O_O

 

[MegaRobMan]

So I know the Samus matchup and Random matchup really well then.

 

[Seagull Joe]

My matchups are much more definitive then Ish's. I say what I believe. I don't have an in between point of view.

Though his are close to mine.

 

[Ishiey]

My in-betweens are just because I think they're easier than the group above but harder than the group below, and since we don't have in-between categories I can see them fitting in either group I'm an extremely lenient person overall though, part of the reason I have those categories is also because other people keep on arguing for one side when I think it's the other, and I want to pander to the public xD

 

[D Who?]

What do you mean "Outbox" Like close combat? Jabs, tilts and grabs? Things like that?

 

[Ishiey]

Yeah, that's basically it.

 

[DellSmashman]

I agree with Ghebs listing the most, except that I think TL and Kirby is 0 also. Also, not to be different, but I find it really hard to see Ice Climbers as even, from what I've seen so far.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I agree with Ghebs listing the most, except that I think TL and Kirby is 0 also. Also, not to be different, but I find it really hard to see Ice Climbers as even, from what I've seen so far.

You're from Michigan...Lain is there who is #1 there...He lost to Kain in vs . Lolwut?

 

[Ishiey]

We should be starting actual work on the BBR MU chart v2 in under a week (not an official date, this is my estimate). Just letting you guys know. Thank you for the feedback everyone

 

[MegaRobMan]

Make sure wolf stays in mid-tier, I wanna use him in Mid-tiers.

 

[Deleted member]

Just make sure he's above Fox.

I've never been to a tournament that has had either a Mid-tier or low-tier tourney.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Just make sure he's above Fox.

I've never been to a tournament that has had either a Mid-tier or low-tier tourney.

Because people are scared since mains win all of em'.