Wolf's Metagame Discussion

[ArcPoint]

I've seen a lot of people use FH bair > fair crossover. It's a pretty good idea, if their shield is down enough you can shieldpoke at the top corner, and if not then you get to take out even more shield. Doesn't seem like people punish it that often if well spaced either, my guess is that they're not used to seeing people lag fair, idk. Thoughts?

It's good...if it hits. And if there's lag, people WILL punish it, I just can't bear to think that I can just hit a shield and get away with a lagged fair. I mean, if I do it, then it's a risk I chose to take.

Edit: Woo hoo! Second page with 40 posts per page efficiency!

 

[Ishiey]

CHARMELEONNNNN

It's weird though, I haven't seen it punished that badly in vids (no links atm, but it was in some of Equi's newer stuff). It's really surprising how so few people turnaround and walk a bit into a grab to punish these things...

 

[ArcPoint]

Probably just matchup inexperience? I dunno, 40 frames is a pretty big window for someone to do something...

 

[Gah777]

You guys will have to tell be how well this'll work (and hopefully someone will do some testing) but since fair and bair are good kill moves how about using uair. Ya know, kinda adopting a ZSS point-of-view. Work on getting them into the air and juggle 'em a bit with uair. I mean we could still use bair and stuff, just mix it up a bit.

 

[Vista]

Hey Vista. Where you been? I see you go to tourneys in Washington. I know a guy named FLA who attends tourneys there.

I only play Melee hahaha

We have the social thread, y'know >_>

Please try to keep this thread on topic.

I am Wolf!!! I'm just kinda checking in though, seeing how the metagame has going. Anything chance yet, or are we still Bair junkies LOL

 

[Ishiey]

I am Wolf!!! I'm just kinda checking in though, seeing how the metagame has going. Anything chance yet, or are we still Bair junkies LOL

Well.....
....
....

Jumpman got 4th at HOBO using Wolf :O check those vids out and see for yourself (just keep in mind he's campier than most of us here, but whatever works).

Also, for the uair thing, it's nowhere near as good as ZSS's imo, but juggling is definitely a strong point of Wolf's game. Uair is a bit slow when it comes to having to punish after an airdodge, but it's great at baiting airdodges into the ground and then following up with a grab or usmash or whatever.

 

[ArcPoint]

Above is image comparing 2 hitboxes's reach. Fsmash and Uair. You see that tiny little one? Yeah, that's Uair. Which would you rather rely on in order to get in an extra hit?

 

[Gah777]

^ holy crap! is uair's hitbox really that small? I mean, it does move in an arc...

How is upB implamented into wolfs current metagame?

 

[MidnightAsaph]

How is upB implamented into wolfs current metagame?

I don't know about everyone else, but I used to use it to SD when I'm getting handled. Now I use the flash cancel for that, it looks flashier.

Real answer? No use for it, unless to recover from below.

 

[SelfPossessed]

The future of up B. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8l6IkaxNpA

 

[Apollo$]

One of my favorite tactics to use with Wolf is AC fair and bair RAR to a b- reversal, works most of time for me. It's a good use for the blaster

 

[Sesshomuronay]

The future of up B. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8l6IkaxNpA

Lol thats always neat when it happens.

 

[Ishiey]

Above is image comparing 2 hitboxes's reach. Fsmash and Uair. You see that tiny little one? Yeah, that's Uair. Which would you rather rely on in order to get in an extra hit?

C'mon, do uair justice. It's hitbox is much larger than that... and usmash/hyphensmash/boostsmash has the best coverage ;D

I remember watching JCav's vids a while back and there was a lot of REALLY random b-reversals that caught people offguard with the bayonet. Has anyone else tried weird stuff like that?

 

[castorpollux]

lol uair is wayyy better than people give it credit for. Most wolf's don't use it enough

 

[ImALemon]

I camp. Im not any pro/groundbreaking/well known player but camping seems to work the best for me, and wolf seems like he has the tools to do it. He has Fsmash with a decent range and, blaster with bayonet, and reflector, Bair,etc. I havent been on SWF in a while so if im behind on the whole camping thing not working or what so ever im sorry.

 

[Apollo$]

Anybody try using up-smash as a regular move? but it depends on the opponent though, It's mostly effective at battlefield but it can be used anywhere else. Yes the start up is crap but it can be used to rack up damage. You kinda just gotta find a moment to use it on your opponent to catch them off guard.

No DACUS just u-smash

 

[ArcPoint]

C'mon, do uair justice. It's hitbox is much larger than that... and usmash/hyphensmash/boostsmash has the best coverage ;D

I remember watching JCav's vids a while back and there was a lot of REALLY random b-reversals that caught people offguard with the bayonet. Has anyone else tried weird stuff like that?

I know that Uair's not that small LOL. But you get my point. Of course, keep in mind that that's FD. Where there aren't any platforms. When you put platforms into the equation, Uair suddenly becomes a lot more useful.

There's a gap between the boost smash and hyphen Usmash (Why the crap is it called hyphen? lol)

Whereas Fsmash covers a consistent ground.

And I haven't actually used B-reversals that way...I've used them to avoid juggles high up though. Like double jumping forward and then B-reversing back away. Fools them for a little bit.

Edit: Although, B-reversed crap like that should be looked into. I'm sure it'd be a little awkward to punish at first.

 

[JCav]

use blaster to get back to the stage, follow up with illusion- **** works

 

[Blargy]

lol i dont trust myself yet to blaster back to stage

i tend to use uair alot during a match or just spam bairs with a random blaster every now and then the blaster actually works most of the time but ya i use random b reversals and hit them with the bayonet it surprising works tho

 

[Seagull Joe]

Uair>usmash is a true combo when the uair is grounded. Then follow the airdodge into a nair or other aerial or wait on ground and do a pivot grab. Predicting is key.

 

[Turbo Ether]

lol uair is wayyy better than people give it credit for. Most wolf's don't use it enough

I agree with this. People don't use Jab enough either. It has really good properties and puts people in pretty bad situations.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

U-air is awesome.

 

[Mikeomak]

i use Uair a pretty decent amount.

 

[Gah777]

That's what I thought. Uair is decent. And it doesn't matter if it's decayed because fair is a better vertical killer.

How good is Wolf's platform game? Is it comparable to Marths (prolly not, but I want to see how everyone else feels)

 

[Dv8tor]

I love the uair, great juggler, especially those corners that seem disjointed. My bro gets mad because his attacks miss and I hit since I space the corners.

 

[Ishiey]

Wolf's platform game is great imo.

Uair is very good, but it's not the easiest move to land on a grounded opponent for combos... Jab is also very good, the one thing that I have against it is 4 frame startup. Someone should find the frame advantages for jab cancels >_>

Arc, that is true about boost smash, but it hits higher up the fsmash ;D So I guess it's a case-by-case thing. And you also can't do fsmash while running, so in that case usmash is probably the best option.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Wolf's platform game is great imo.

Uair is very good, but it's not the easiest move to land on a grounded opponent for combos... Jab is also very good, the one thing that I have against it is 4 frame startup. Someone should find the frame advantages for jab cancels >_>

Arc, that is true about boost smash, but it hits higher up the fsmash ;D So I guess it's a case-by-case thing. And you also can't do fsmash while running, so in that case usmash is probably the best option.

But you can F-smash while boost walking! But even if you learned that boost walking thing and could do it in a match easily, would it still be better than just a running boostsmash?

 

[ArcPoint]

Any frame advantage would probably be negative...unless you're forced into the air and then they have the landing lag. But even then, it's probably not 8 frames...

 

[Ishiey]

We need a 5 frame advantage to jab>grab, because of the 1 (minimum) frame startup on spotdodges and squirtle/ZSS jabs.

Speaking about jab cancels,can you jab1>jab1 as quickly as jab1>grab, or is there a mechanic that prevents you from doing that?

 

[ArcPoint]

Yeah, you can interrupt the lag of the first jab with another jab, but you can't interrupt it with any other move. So if you want to do jab grab you'd have to wait for the lag of the first jab to get done.

 

[Gah777]

How well does grab release to AAA work? Is that a true combo (I get it off on my bro all the time, but it's possible that he just has bad reflexes lol)?

 

[Seagull Joe]

How well does grab release to AAA work? Is that a true combo (I get it off on my bro all the time, but it's possible that he just has bad reflexes lol)?

Well it can work depending on two things:
1. The brain of the opponent
2. If they don't have an attack quicker then 4 frames.
So like ganon could be grab released into aaa because he has nothing faster then 4 frames (when the jab starts). I wouldn't recommend doing grab release too much because the top tier characters can usually do something better outta it then you can. Snake aaa or ftilt for example. You could also try a mixup like Jab>jab>fsmash or Jab>bair.

 

[PowaStar]

Ok so long story short is jab canceling even worth it? Because every time I try to do it I fail.... lol

 

[Turbo Ether]

Any practical use for weak Bair for comboing? Just found out weak Bair -> Dacus, registers as a combo in training mode at lowish percents.

 

[Ishiey]

Jab cancelling is worth it, but you gotta be able to condition and read your opponent to make the most of it. See if they shield when you stop the jabs early, if they don't then you know that they'll be susceptible to stuff like dsmash. If they attack with their own jab to outspeed dsmash, run away shff bair. If they shield to block your attack, grab. If they spotdodge to avoid the grab, it's a free move of any choice. Something like that, except not as straightforward.

Any practical use for weak Bair for comboing? Just found out weak Bair -> Dacus, registers as a combo in training mode at lowish percents.

LOTS of practical use. You can string stale bairs together like crazy on opponents like ROB and DK (prime candidates due to size, weight, and fall speed imo), fh bair > ff bair over and over and over. I haven't done it in training mode but it works like a charm and nets 30-40% even though stale if you get 5 bairs in (more than feasible).

 

[Turbo Ether]

I meant non-sweetspoted Bair, not stale, but hell, stale non-sweetspotted Bairs sounds interesting.

Oh yeah, about jab cancelling: I noticed that at high percents, jab1 will pop people into the air a bit if they DI it incorrectly. Does anyone know if you can guarantee a Dsmash off of this? Seems to work best against floaty characters.

 

[PowaStar]

Jab cancelling is worth it, but you gotta be able to condition and read your opponent to make the most of it. See if they shield when you stop the jabs early, if they don't then you know that they'll be susceptible to stuff like dsmash. If they attack with their own jab to outspeed dsmash, run away shff bair. If they shield to block your attack, grab. If they spotdodge to avoid the grab, it's a free move of any choice. Something like that, except not as straightforward.



LOTS of practical use. You can string stale bairs together like crazy on opponents like ROB and DK (prime candidates due to size, weight, and fall speed imo), fh bair > ff bair over and over and over. I haven't done it in training mode but it works like a charm and nets 30-40% even though stale if you get 5 bairs in (more than feasible).

I think that you can't do the whole stale back air combo because the moves can't get stale at all in training mode right? Yeah I use jab canceling on sheilds I treat it like MetaKnight's foward tilt for shield pressuring.

 

[Ishiey]

@ Turbo: Oh, my bad >_> It does make it easier to combo into stuff like grab at higher %s though.... I'll do a bit of looking into it next week, hopefully I can find something out about the stun time. And is it just me, or is the trajectory lower when sourspotted?

That's possible for the jab, I don't have frame data to test it though. From what I know, characters like Marth can fair you out of a jab cancel (might depend on DI), so there's probably room to DJ away.

@ PowaStar: Good point, forgot about that ._. Stupid training mode. But I can say that I've pulled off 4-5 stale bairs in a row several times in matches, and my opponents are just like "Well, ****" so I'm assuming they can't airdodge out

 

[DarkLouis331]

Jab cancelling is worth it, but you gotta be able to condition and read your opponent to make the most of it. See if they shield when you stop the jabs early, if they don't then you know that they'll be susceptible to stuff like dsmash. If they attack with their own jab to outspeed dsmash, run away shff bair. If they shield to block your attack, grab. If they spotdodge to avoid the grab, it's a free move of any choice. Something like that, except not as straightforward.



LOTS of practical use. You can string stale bairs together like crazy on opponents like ROB and DK (prime candidates due to size, weight, and fall speed imo), fh bair > ff bair over and over and over. I haven't done it in training mode but it works like a charm and nets 30-40% even though stale if you get 5 bairs in (more than feasible).

I have done this on Charizard too. So keep that in mind.

 

[Gah777]

Have we discussed the shine yet?