Wolfs viability

[DarkLouis331]

Wolves like to travel in packs. And wolf in brawl isn't much different. He needs a secondary to help with the bad matchups he has. Wolf can be used at a high level alone but it is probably very difficult seeing as how dedede and pikachu have some pretty annoying stuff they can do to wolf.

Yeah...Last summer/fall, I was limited to using just Wolf because that's what I wanted to do. At the beginning of this summer, I really began to pick up Snake and some G&W and I've been doing alot better than I was last summer. But Wolf is still my #1...I like to use Snake on stages Wolf is bad on or with other matchups or just when I'm having trouble.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

he really only has d3 and pika to contend with and pika really still isnt all that bad just gotta watch out for the grab and such

you really only need a secondary for d3 if you do that then wolf can compete very well

All current S-Tier characters except maybe Diddy have the advantage over Wolf. I actually think that Diddy has the advantage now too. I think Wolf doesn fine against pretty much everyone below S-tier but even if moost of his match-up vs S-Tier characters are winnable it's still a pain to fight one uphill battle after another in a tourney.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

My only BIG problem is D3. Pikachu, and Wario are CG ***s, but you can deal with it by camping. Your best bet is to pick up like Falco or Diddy tho for D3/Wario/Pikachu(not falco for pika).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yeah, I agree that all match-ups except D3 are winnable but many people consider Snake or MK as too difficult as well. And since you probably can't play ALL match-ups perfectly you alredy have a tough time because Wario and Falco are always threatening as well.

I'm, not saying that Wolf isn't good enough or that he needs like 3 characters to cover his bad match-ups but you have to be realistic.

Edit: I'm talking about the match-ups vs the current S-Tier characters...this doesn't include difficult match-ups like Sheik or Pikachu

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

I just use Diddy on D3. Wario I'm not worried about, then Pikachu I'll prolly stay Wolf or go Pit. Im using wolf as my main for MK banned tournaments.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I consider wolf viable. Over the past few tournies I have really started placing higher. My gameplay keeps evolving with wolf and there is always something to learn or to work on. Usually i get top 10 now. For like d3 I have mk as a backup, though I'm thinking of changing that to a d3 ditto. I'm not sure if I want to pick up d3. The d3 would be pretty mad if I did a ditto. All the more reason to, I guess.

 

[mountain_tiger]

I think that Wolf could be viable, so long as you have a secondary for the handful of really tough matchups he has.

 

[tekkie]

Maining Wolf is living a life of seeing how many higher tier characters you can bring down at tournaments just for the satisfaction of doing it with a mid/low tier.

It's like being a Spartan and seeing how many Persians you can take out before you get ***** by some MK/DDD/Snake/etc. user.

 

[mith132]

Maining Wolf is living a life of seeing how many higher tier characters you can bring down at tournaments just for the satisfaction of doing it with a mid/low tier.

It's like being a Spartan and seeing how many Persians you can take out before you get ***** by some MK/DDD/Snake/etc. user.

exactly. It's all the more satisfying taking down a mk with wolf, than with snake.

 

[Goldenadept]

wolf definatly has the tools to do well, its just that you need to play perfectly, if you mess up you get ***** for it, its just easier to be consistantly good with high tier characters like snake

 

[John102]

I really don't have that much trouble with wario, but I always get chain ***** by DDD. Anywho, I'm thinking about making my secondary falco to take care of some bad matchups, I'll still have rob to worry about though >.<

Oh, and if people start playing balanced brawl that'll help wolf some too.

 

[Goldenadept]

my friend plays as ROB and once he gets you off stage its hard to come back, his F-air just destroys you, but i heard here that nair is fast enough to hit him outta it :/ ROB is kinda tough, he has great range, it seems like it just comes down to whoever is better XD its way better than other MU's

 

[Luigimar]

I'm not sure if my opinion should matter because I'm new to smash (3 months?) but I think Wolf can definitely be a stand-alone character as long as there's a good player using him (of course). Still remember he can still meteor smash DDD. I don't find DDD too hard, I'm not sure what the fuss is about though.

 

[Luigimar]

woops my sigs MEANT TO BE

 

[ArcPoint]

All the fuss about DDD? One grab can = 1 stock. And regardless he gets like, 30% anyway off of a grab, which he got in one go. And you work to get in 2-3 hits in order to do that much to him. Oh, and he's really heavy. Oh, and his Utilt will kill you at 100~

 

[Goldenadept]

lol arc, he didnt know XD DDD is a grade "A" jerk, dont forget that once he throws you off stage he can dtilt you for some *&^%$ reason.... he's so broken that its not funny at all, you just have to be really smart against one and never ever get grabbed, do that with DDD and falco and suddenly wolf is very viable

 

[MidnightAsaph]

What's the consensus for DDDvWolf without the CG?

Watching JJ play that DDD, I was thinking, if you're super careful and super campy, not getting grabbed, isn't it do-able?

 

[Goldenadept]

with the CG its 80:20 DDD so i'd say its like 65:35 without? he's still a &*%^ to kill and he has really disjointed attacks and KO power up the butt, but he's really slow, just play extra gay

 

[Ishiey]

No way it's that bad. With the cg, probably 70:30 at worst. With the smallstep cg, probably 80:20.

 

[Goldenadept]

i dunno... DDD is king gay, lord over all others.... but i agree 70:30 if its a stage with platforms, so that'd made it 60:40 without the cg?

 

[Red Arremer]

*puts on glove, grabs into lab coat, shuffles, shuffles... pulls out a crumpled piece of paper and spreads it onto the table*
There we go.

Guide to Match-Up Ratios by Praxis
50:50
Very even matchup. Definition should be fairly obvious.

55:45
No character has a true solid advantage, but one has seemingly better/easier tools, or one character profits more from winning a rock/paper/scissors guessing game.

60:40
One character has clearly better tools in the matchup. However, the other character does have responses him, and the matchup is still winnable through outplaying the opponent or outspacing his tools and countering with the weaker ones well placed.

65:35
One character has options that shut down the other's options. Counterpicking should be considered, but it's not completely unwinnable, but rather simply requires one player to far outplay the other.

70:30
Something about the character in the advantage completely shuts down the other character. Counterpicking is heavily recommended - or rely on them not knowing the matchup and you knowing it incredibly well.

Anything past 70:30
Pretty much unwinnable matchups like Dedede vs Donkey Kong.

Ah yes. That should help you guys. Taken from my amazing Fox Matchup Index. <3

____________________

To contribute to the topic at hand:
I think that Wolf, among several other characters in Mid Tier, has a lot of potential.

True, Dedede, Wario, Pikachu... all those characters do very well against him. However, if you look at the metagame evolution, you will see that all those characters had more or less recent evolution.

Prime example for the opposite is Meta Knight. His metagame has reached a point of stagnation. Remember back in the day when SBR Tierlist 1 was released, where everyone agreed that Meta Knight would have absolutely no disadvantageous matchup? Where so many tournaments were won by Meta Knight only, especially Mew2King?
Well, look at that. A lot of characters have caught up by now - especially Snake, Diddy, Falco and the Ice Climbers. Meta Knight already was at his peak in the Tierlist 2-"era" about 9 months ago. His metagame declined. Players like Ally, ADHD, SK92, lain, etc., have discovered ways to beat Meta Knight's Top Players. He still has no disadvantageous matchups (yet), but he has even ones. That's metagame advancement.

This has happened to only High Tier characters, so far, with the exception of Sheik who has gotten a HUGE boost lately. Slowly, the other Mid Tier characters are following, though. However, Wolf is one of the characters who has hardly had any advancement so far. Sure, the lack of Top Level-players like Ally is one of the reasons why Wolf is severely underplayed.

However, one of the most important reasons is that he's destroyed by Dedede's CGs. Look at the characters who are suffering from that - Mario, Luigi, Donkey Kong, Wolf, Bowser, Samus... All those characters have hardly players on top or very high level, if they have one at all.

I think that "lol i pick D3 & CG u. GGs" is a huge turn-off. Add this to a high learning curve (true for all those characters) and the general laziness of the Brawl community, and you have a group of Mid Tier characters noone wants to play as.

tl;dr-version: I think Wolf can become viable in the future, if his metagame is able to evolve. For now he isn't.

 

[Frank West]

I didn't really think the Dedede match up was that bad. Wolf has the spacing options to keep from getting grabbed. D3 recovers, survives, edge guards better but if wolf keeps the fight on stage I think he has a pretty decent shot. Blaster is great too. Wolf I believe is in that group of characters that are dancing on that fine line between viable and not viable. They possibly have the potential win/place high in a regional sized tourney but it'd require the player to be on their A++ game. Maybe we'll see this soon, but I guess only time will tell for sure.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I didn't really think the Dedede match up was that bad. Wolf has the spacing options to keep from getting grabbed. D3 recovers, survives, edge guards better but if wolf keeps the fight on stage I think he has a pretty decent shot. Blaster is great too. Wolf I believe is in that group of characters that are dancing on that fine line between viable and not viable. They possibly have the potential win/place high in a regional sized tourney but it'd require the player to be on their A++ game. Maybe we'll see this soon, but I guess only time will tell for sure.

X_X. The d3 matchup is 80-20 for a reason. Wolf can be ledge infinited. D3 projectile is superior to wolf. D3 cg on wolf is horrible. D3 is really hard for wolf to get close enough to kill without getting cg'd. The match is horrible. D3 can outspace wolf and shut his game down. Ugh go to a tourney and play a competent d3 with wolf.

 

[Ishiey]

Is the ledge infinite banned? Idr...

 

[Red Arremer]

No. It's usually not banned.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Yeah it usually isn't ......sad face.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Don't they usually have limitations? There's always limitations, and if we believe in ourselves, we can DI anything!

/denial at its best

Well, don't get grabbed. Easy as that. You're all n00bs.

/more brilliant sarcasm


If your opponents gonna be ghey, then be ghey as can be in return. Camp. I've found that a DDD in the air is easy to control. Spacing bairs/fairs and whatever can put you in those kind of positions. Also, and this'll sound really crazy, but, crazy works for me: if DDD's gonna grab you, return the favor by grabbing.

/now he's ****ing lost it

 

[KRDsonic]

I personally think that Wolf is viable... he has lots of even and consistent matchups which helps. As far as fighting D3... we might find a way.

Then again, I suppose if the ledge infinite isn't banned most places then that would make it tough. It's banned here, I forgot that other places don't :/

 

[Frank West]

X_X. The d3 matchup is 80-20 for a reason. Wolf can be ledge infinited. D3 projectile is superior to wolf. D3 cg on wolf is horrible. D3 is really hard for wolf to get close enough to kill without getting cg'd. The match is horrible. D3 can outspace wolf and shut his game down. Ugh go to a tourney and play a competent d3 with wolf.

Don't worry my wolf has been owned by enough decent D3s to know the matchup sucks. I never said it didn't. But 80:20 which is basically unwinnable just seems excessive. The Dedede boards themselves have it as 70:30. sure the CG/infinite are glaring issues, but again that comes down to avoiding the grab, which I feel wolf has the ability to do if played patiently and carefully(aka "gay") enough. In short, treat D3 like you would IC's and you have a tough uphill battle, but not an "impossible" one imo. That being said though, i'm one to put my money where my mouth is. Next big tourney, I decided i'm going all wolf so I guess we'll see how it turns out.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Don't worry my wolf has been owned by enough decent D3s to know the matchup sucks. I never said it didn't. But 80:20 which is basically unwinnable just seems excessive. The Dedede boards themselves have it as 70:30. sure the CG/infinite are glaring issues, but again that comes down to avoiding the grab, which I feel wolf has the ability to do if played patiently and carefully(aka "gay") enough. In short, treat D3 like you would IC's and you have a tough uphill battle, but not an "impossible" one imo. That being said though, i'm one to put my money where my mouth is. Next big tourney, I decided i'm going all wolf so I guess we'll see how it turns out.

I go all wolf all the time. I'm proud of you

 

[Ishiey]

Swagger, good luck Nice to see that dedication though, hopefully you can keep it up.

I agree with your reasoning though, tough uphill but definitely doable. Wolf can avoid the grab well enough, and even though there are problems besides that, you can overcome it with enough skill. Honestly, I think a top level wolf would rarely ever get grabbed.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Its 65:35 at worst. Good spacing helps, its 8:2 if you don't know what to do, but if you space bairs and JC fairs correctly you cannot be shield grabbed, but the DeDeDe might bait you into a grab, but its a mindgame and if you get baited into a grab thats your fault for being mindgamed. Thats the only way you can really be grabbed or if you make a mistake and again which is your fault. If you play right its not that bad...