X5 suggested Changes and Nerfs (let's be reasonable folks)

[TylerX5]

1. Bananas
- He can only have one out at a time
- If a Banana is already out Diddy will pull out a peanut
- if thrown onto an enemy they break
- If tripped on once they break
- Regardless who sets the Banana anyone can trip over them
- When on the ground they stay out indefinitely or until Diddy is KO'd

My reasoning for this is fairly simple. The Banana's act as both a throw item like peach's turnips, but also as mine in the sense that it limits movement options and is a combo set up. To have 2 mines that limit spacing is over powered, and add in the fact that unlike other mines Diddy cannot activate his own this leads to mine spamming where a legitimate strategy is to just place as many mines as you can without much thought. If Diddy Kong could activate his own mines it would force to the player to think more about their placement, and therefore balancing the risk/reward factor.

As for their limited usage I feel it's fair that a mine can only be activated once before being destroyed. While it's true that a Banana mine won't kill a player it's set up potential is just as lethal as Snake's.

2. Diddy's UpB
- the Distance it can go needs to be reduce ( fully charged it can recover from part of the magnet of FD and is 13+ training room blocks in height) to at least Dedede's UpB height (which is roughly 11 training room Blocks in height)
- It's charge time should be reduced
- the misfire barrels need to be removed

I don't think Diddy's UpB should go any higher than Fox's UpB, or at the very least somewhere in between Dedede's and Fox's Vertical distance. That said a decreased charge time will help bridge the time it takes to go high. I think everyone would agree the Misfire barrels are ridiculous and are just a left over from Brawl, it just doesn't make sense to punish someone for successfully intercepting a recovery.

3. Diddy's Fair

Does anyone have the data for this move? I can't honestly say anything about it until I know it's properties a bit more.

 

[Soft Serve]

Just like
I don't want to disagree with everything you said because Diddy does need some tweaks

but everything you're concerned about has been talked about for weeks, just read some of the other threads that are really active before you make a new one. Theres a stickied thread full of hitboxes and frame data right at the top

Misfire Barrels do need to be removed.

Banana's aren't mines, they are items and can be clanked and caught and used against Diddy. Unlike other projectiles they have more counterplay than just "avoid it or power shield it, otherwise give up advantage" when wavedashing inplace/back/forward when its thrown at you will catch it instead. They are very strong but don't need their usefulness to be utterly destroyed by the suggestions you made.

 

[TylerX5]

I had no idea by the Frame Data's title it was Frame data lol

I have to disagree with you, the Banana's are effectively Mines and items at the same time. What else would you call something that causes an effect whilst walking over it? I suppose you could just call it a trap but it essentially works the same in terms of movement limitation so I feel it's fair to call it that. Also the motion sensor item can be caught and clanked with as well, and it is a mine. The only difference between the 2 is the explosion and usability

While it's true a person can pick them up that put's them at a disadvantage. For 1 they need to pick it up. 2. They need to throw it. Both of those have start and end times which can be all Diddy needs to start something.

 

[Dragoomba]

Lol no. Diddy's banana play requires the most thought and precision out of any other projectile game. The reason for this is that, like stated above, the other opponent can easily catch and pick up the bananas without much effort and use them against you.

While it's true a person can pick them up that put's them at a disadvantage. For 1 they need to pick it up. 2. They need to throw it. Both of those have start and end times which can be all Diddy needs to start something.

It doesn't really. Have you ever tried wavedashing to pick up a banana? You should be doing it during the duration of the match anyway. If you wavedash to pick up a banana, you have literally no startup on picking up the item. Also, keep in mind that Diddy is at the same disadvantages when he is also holding a banana, but you also get advantages such as aerial glidetossing and the like. Not to mention that item catch leniency seems to have been improved in this game (that might just be me though).

Every time I see people complain about Diddy's bananas, I have to assume it's someone playing against a friend of theirs in a bad matchup or something they can't adapt to.

 

[Phan7om]

Honestly the bananas are not that big of a deal. They were way worse in Brawl, and PM wise 2.6 bananas were almost just as bad. No one complained (I understand no one complaining in Brawl since it couldnt be nerfed, but still you couldnt tech them, and they gave Diddy infinites). Why all of a sudden now? But there are some things I do agree with.

We all know recoveries are all pretty good for the most part. There are always people on opposite sides of the spectrum, one always says that x's recovery is too good, while the other always says x's recovery isnt that good learn to edgeguard noob... or something along those lines. Technically, every character can be edgeguarded, but some are just crazy imo. Whether thats good or bad im not gonna say. I do agree that Diddy's up-b charge up time needs to be reduced tho, like maybe half.

And i think everyone agrees misfire barrels are pretty dumb.

Diddy's f-air. I say make that more DI dependent, but increase the knockback on his u-air by a little.

 

[TylerX5]

Lol no. Diddy's banana play requires the most thought and precision out of any other projectile game. The reason for this is that, like stated above, the other opponent can easily catch and pick up the bananas without much effort and use them against you.



It doesn't really. Have you ever tried wavedashing to pick up a banana? You should be doing it during the duration of the match anyway. If you wavedash to pick up a banana, you have literally no startup on picking up the item. Also, keep in mind that Diddy is at the same disadvantages when he is also holding a banana, but you also get advantages such as aerial glidetossing and the like. Not to mention that item catch leniency seems to have been improved in this game (that might just be me though).

Every time I see people complain about Diddy's bananas, I have to assume it's someone playing against a friend of theirs in a bad matchup or something they can't adapt to.

I've actually played Seagull Joe a fair amount of times so I do have some knowledge in the match-up. Wavedashing onto a Banana isn't as quick as you might think it is. 1. you need to jump (which can be between 3-7 frames 2. Then you need to air dodge onto the ground(idk how many frames that takes nor whether the item grab cancels landing lag which normally is 4 frames) 3. Then you need to throw the banana (which at least for Ike takes 10 frames to throw forward). So just to Grab and throw the Banana is close to or over 1/3rd of a second which is a long time in Smash terms.

 

[DeFish]

I've actually played Seagull Joe a fair amount of times so I do have some knowledge in the match-up. Wavedashing onto a Banana isn't as quick as you might think it is. 1. you need to jump (which can be between 3-7 frames 2. Then you need to air dodge onto the ground(idk how many frames that takes nor whether the item grab cancels landing lag which normally is 4 frames) 3. Then you need to throw the banana (which at least for Ike takes 10 frames to throw forward). So just to Grab and throw the Banana is close to or over 1/3rd of a second which is a long time in Smash terms.

And yet Diddy players do it constantly during a match. The complaints about bananas are ridiculous, and that horse is so beaten that it's now a puddle on the ground.

I was at a local a couple weeks ago and ran through the bracket until I played against someone playing Pit that was a Diddy main in Brawl. His item control was much better than mine, which meant that I had to up my game to keep control of my bananas. I ended up losing that set because his item control was so much better, and he gave me a few tips afterwards on how to improve. This idea that Diddy bananas are this unstoppable force of death and destruction is ludicrous. Bananas aren't rocket science, spend 2 weeks playing Diddy and you'll learn the basics of item control/counter-control.

 

[TylerX5]

I'm not saying Banana's are terrible or unmanageable, only that as they are now are a bit too good against most of the cast. As for Item management this was never really part of my argument, but while we're at it I feel I need to say that comparing Diddy's item management to the rest of the cast is a false equivalence. Diddy's Side B alone is enough to make his options with an item decent But. I'm mainly concerned with the spacing limitations a set Banana mine has combined with another Banana mine. And the fact that the person setting the Banana mine can't activate makes it cross a line, but it isn't broken. I just think the overall game would be better off with a redesigned Banana system.

 

[DeFish]

I'm not saying Banana's are terrible or unmanageable, only that as they are now are a bit too good against most of the cast.

If you're saying that bananas are "a bit too good" such that they need to be redesigned, then you're saying they're unmanageable.

Diddy's side-b is just as good with bananas as it is without, the only difference is the follow ups available if he connects with the grab while holding a banana. But him holding that banana doesn't alter the fact that if you read the side-b correctly, you can punish it hard. It also doesn't alter the fact that while he's holding that banana, side-b is one of the few options he has that don't involve it, so you should be mentally preparing for it. It's a really bad move to use out of a straight neutral situation, there's not much reason to get hit by it unless you're hiding in your shield.

But that aside, which characters are you specifically saying get mauled by bananas?

 

[MoosyDoosy]

Without bananas, Diddy becomes an extremely average character without any defining characteristics (besides barrel misfire, but that's pretty stupid). It's bananas that give him his respectable perks and makes him a really fun character to play as. Playing as Diddy is super fun, especially when you get off a super combo with bananas in the mix. I understand if you fell frustrated because you can't deal with bananas, but with a few hours of practice, you'll get it down and start fighting Diddy back. The reason why Diddy mains are good with bananas is because it's the bread and butter of our gameplay and we have to practice using them or risk not using a critical part of our gameplay.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

This thread needs to be locked.

But I'll throw my opinion in:

Diddys real nerfs need:

Misfire removed, or on a timer, with no lasting hit box until explosion.

UpB landing lag increased (maybe around Lucas)

Fair angle needs to be higher, with the bad DI hit being slightly higher. No knockback change.

UpB charge time reduced slightly. With landing lag increased, misfire removed, our weight, and our fall speed, the height should be the same. With a reduced charge time however, there's less error for opponents to miss a crucial edge guard.

Fsmash knock back reduced.

 

[TylerX5]

Without bananas, Diddy becomes an extremely average character without any defining characteristics (besides barrel misfire, but that's pretty stupid). It's bananas that give him his respectable perks and makes him a really fun character to play as. Playing as Diddy is super fun, especially when you get off a super combo with bananas in the mix. I understand if you fell frustrated because you can't deal with bananas, but with a few hours of practice, you'll get it down and start fighting Diddy back. The reason why Diddy mains are good with bananas is because it's the bread and butter of our gameplay and we have to practice using them or risk not using a critical part of our gameplay.

I see your point. To be honest though I'm not really bothered by the Banana's from my match ups. I was watching Sethlon and K-9 at Xanadu last week and their performances were tear jerking. Although I do think it would be fair to say it could be a lack of experience. Also MD/VA is stacked with Diddys so my perception is probably affected by that.

 

[Praxis]

No. These suggestions are terrible and would turn Diddy in to a terrible character. He's already probably not top ten in the game, and even if he was there's no reason to nerf; he's clearly not the best or particularly close to it. Link, Lucas, Pit, Marth, Fox, Falco, and Wolf are better than him and Mewtwo, MK, Mario, and Snake are probably better than him.

He's got straight up bad matchups in Mewtwo, Zelda, Luigi, Kirby, and others. He's a very well balanced character and ripping him apart like you want to just to satisfy complainers would be a shame and end his viability.

1. Bananas
- He can only have one out at a time
- If a Banana is already out Diddy will pull out a peanut
- if thrown onto an enemy they break
- If tripped on once they break
- Regardless who sets the Banana anyone can trip over them
- When on the ground they stay out indefinitely or until Diddy is KO'd

You are either not a Diddy player or are bad at fighting Diddy.


People who want one banana don't understand naner logic.

Play your game to threaten Diddy if he pulls his second naner.



* If Diddy cannot pull a second naner, his opponent grabbing his banana is an enormous disadvantage. Diddy needs the ability to pull his own naner, or suddenly naners become way too risky to let go of. This would actually encourage Diddy to become very campy (as naner OOS is really, really good) so as not to let his naner get in the opponent's hand (whereas right now, if his opponent goes for a banana, Diddy pulls another banana, and they each have one). Diddy would camp for OOS naners or whiffed attacks if he couldn't pull his own naner in response. Can you imagine a game in which Mario loses his fireballs for fifteen seconds if his opponent reflects one, or Peach loses her turnip if someone catches one? Especially this game where it is really easy to catch items (you can even instant AGT if you're offstage so there's no downsides). Two naners on stage keeps the match flowing. Without the ability to pull a second naner when your opponent gets one, Diddy would hold on to his naner for guaranteed followups only.

* A single naner reduces the technical complexity of a character- it's a very common thing for Diddies to throw one naner using something like AGT to cover their attempt to reach a second naner. Techniques like glidetossing and AGT allow Diddy to move during the throw. Diddies use a lot of ATs to move themselves from one naner to the other with their projectiles. Without two naners, there's much less point in these motion techniques, and Diddy's technical requirements go down by a lot.

Project M has already countered the strength of two bananas...through faster, more aggressive gameplay. It's very hard for Diddy to get his second naner out if his opponent understands the risk of that.

Diddy is especially unique in that he can threaten people in the neutral game. His opponent is forced to stay on Diddy, because if he doesn't, Diddy can get two bananas out and set up the stage to control the techchases that follow from a banana hit.

This is where people's lack of matchup knowledge frequently shines through. When the game is reset to neutral, people often let Diddy run away and get two naners. Good people don't do this, because in the high speed of PM...it's actually pretty hard for Diddy to get true control of both naners if his opponent doesn't leave him alone.

If you check the Diddy critique thread on Smashboards, just a couple days ago we had a discussion about how Junebug's biggest issue is that he would always try to get his second banana when he should be keeping his opponent moving and the attempt to get the second banana always allowed his opponent to get a positioning edge on him. In fact, with the high speed of PM, it's very, very hard for Diddy to get his second naner if the opponent understands that it's his opportunity to get a positional advantage.


If you watch good PM players against Diddy, what they do is prevent the Diddy from eever getting his second banana out by always being in a position where going for a second banana pull will cause the Diddy to cede the neutral game.

This is a mistake Junebug (and myself, actually) makes frequently- partially because of Brawl habits (you don't get punished as hard, ceding the neutral game is often worth it for the second banana which punishes harder in Brawl than PM, because there is no naner teching in Brawl). Often, taking any opportunity to pull your second banana cedes the first one to your opponent, or gets you hit.

You'll often see good Diddies not even getting that many naners out, because their opponent stays in a position where refusing to cede that neutral game (and thus not going for the second naner because he can't) is what they have to do.

The naners are Diddy's pressure. Letting Diddy get two naners out and one of them in hand is the same thing as letting Falco dair your shield. The threat of two naners forces your opponent to always stay close enough to you to punish your attempt at a second naner pull and makes the match move forward at a fast pace. You have to keep on Diddy in the same way you have to keep Falco from getting on to you. The fact that this logic is inverted is why people think Diddy is too good (they think they're doing well when Diddy is trying to get his second naner and ceding ground).


Now add to this that Diddy is the perfect combo weight- he gets destroyed if he actually gets hit. This makes for what is, in the end, an extremely well balanced character- a character that is extremely threatening if you let him control the neutral game, but can be threatened in to not being able to get his position of strength, who falls apart when he gets hit without his stage setup. He's got a very solid game without naners, but he gets combo'd like a spacie without being able to pressure and combo like a spacie if he doesn't have a naner. He needs the strong neutral game to overcome the fact that when he gets hit he gets hit bad.

My reasoning for this is fairly simple. The Banana's act as both a throw item like peach's turnips, but also as mine in the sense that it limits movement options and is a combo set up. To have 2 mines that limit spacing is over powered, and add in the fact that unlike other mines Diddy cannot activate his own this leads to mine spamming where a legitimate strategy is to just place as many mines as you can without much thought. If Diddy Kong could activate his own mines it would force to the player to think more about their placement, and therefore balancing the risk/reward factor.

As for their limited usage I feel it's fair that a mine can only be activated once before being destroyed. While it's true that a Banana mine won't kill a player it's set up potential is just as lethal as Snake's.

This is, sorry, straight up bad reasoning.

Grounded bananas are not mines. You can take control of them by wavedashing over them or pressing Z as you land. They do no damage on trip, and only initiate a guessing game (and you can tech them), and ignore certain states (float, Fox's dash attack, etc).

The best use for grounded bananas are limiting options in techchases. That's it.

Diddy tries to keep you in guessing games because once you get in on him, you can combo him badly. He crushes people who don't understand banana play (because they miss their moments to take control), and he crushes people who can't combo fastfallers (because once you get in on him you miss your chance to destroy him), and people who don't know how to edgeguard (because he's actually very edgeguardable).

2. Diddy's UpB
- the Distance it can go needs to be reduce ( fully charged it can recover from part of the magnet of FD and is 13+ training room blocks in height) to at least Dedede's UpB height (which is roughly 11 training room Blocks in height)
- It's charge time should be reduced
- the misfire barrels need to be removed

I don't think Diddy's UpB should go any higher than Fox's UpB, or at the very least somewhere in between Dedede's and Fox's Vertical distance. That said a decreased charge time will help bridge the time it takes to go high. I think everyone would agree the Misfire barrels are ridiculous and are just a left over from Brawl, it just doesn't make sense to punish someone for successfully intercepting a recovery.

I agree that the misfire shouldn't be so random, but otherwise, no. Diddy can't sweetspot the ledge when recovering with a high charge. People rush out to hit him when they can just stand there and prepare to cover all his options when he releases.

Diddy's recovery isn't nearly as big an issue as people like you think it is.

 

[Praxis]

This thread needs to be locked.

But I'll throw my opinion in:

Diddys real nerfs need:

Misfire removed, or on a timer, with no lasting hit box until explosion.

UpB landing lag increased (maybe around Lucas)

Fair angle needs to be higher, with the bad DI hit being slightly higher. No knockback change.

UpB charge time reduced slightly. With landing lag increased, misfire removed, our weight, and our fall speed, the height should be the same. With a reduced charge time however, there's less error for opponents to miss a crucial edge guard.

Fsmash knock back reduced.

In my dream world the barrels would follow my analog stick movements to some degree (think Yoshi egg)...

I realized that it's actually viable to use up-B instead of shield when Falco is approaching you with SH lasers because you'll eat the hit and send a barrel toward him, but the trajectory is random and sometimes the barrel goes away with him and he gets a free hit on you. I'd love to use up-B as an actual projectile spammer counter, where you could run in to weak projectiles like bacon and laser and send a barrel back in your opponent's general direction.

However, in this regard, I am also completely nuts.

 

[DeFish]

My main training partner plays Zelda, and I've done this to deal with uncomfortably placed Din's. If you're nuts Praxis, then I am too.

 

[Praxis]

My main training partner plays Zelda, and I've done this to deal with uncomfortably placed Din's. If you're nuts Praxis, then I am too.

One of my training partners also plays Zelda, and he does grounded up-B to AGT instantly any time I leave a banana unguarded. It's horrifying as a Diddy player. D: Zelda is scary for Diddy if the opponent actually understands naners.

 

[Praxis]

In vein of OP, if I were the PMBR, I would probably...

* Nerf the barrel rocket somehow, so that people don't get punished for punishing Diddy. Don't remove it completely- Diddy's lack of sweetspot sometimes leaves Diddy players in the situation where they have to repeatedly up-B in to the same attack over and over and over during their recovery, and it's nice to have a chance of making it back onstage after eating 60%+ of the same attack. Maybe make the barrel do1%, the explosion have no knockback growth so no one ever gets killed by it, and the trajectory be an arc based on the player's analog stick. So the recovering player can deliberately run in to attacks during recovery to send a barrel out to make the opponent flinch so Diddy can come back offstage, but no one will ever be killed by it.

* Add two frames of landing lag to Diddy's up-B, making it easier to punish.

* Maybe make it a little easier to DI Diddy's fair...maybe.

Otherwise, I honestly think he's a very well designed character. He gets combo'd really badly when he gets hit, so his entire game is based around putting opponents under pressure and creating guessing games. In this way he's very similar to Falco, or even David Sirlin's description of Chipp in Guilty Gear XX ( http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/2-the-sheathed-sword.html )

et us consider the strangely-named fighting game Guilty Gear XX. There is a character named Chipp in this game who has remarkably few hit points. The simplest combo or solid hit does an incredible amount of damage to him. When Chipp exchanges blows, Chipp dies. The Chipp player should not seek to engage in “actual fighting,” but instead should attempt to lock down or “rush down” his opponent. Chipp has amazingly fast movement and moves, the ability to teleport, to turn invisible, and to jump three times before landing (rather than just two like other characters). Chipp can unleash a flurry of attacks that force the opponent to block sequence after sequence. During this time, Chipp builds up his own “super meter,” which he can spend to make his rushing sequences even more effective. Meanwhile, the opponent is unable to do much and finds building up his own super meter difficult. When Chipp lands a combo on the opponent it won’t do that much damage, but Chipp often has the option to end the combo with a “freeze” move that puts the opponent into a guessing game. If they guess wrong, they get hit by another combo into another guessing game. If they guess right, they merely “get to play,” finally. Chipp’s prime directive is to never let the opponent really play, because if they are actually allowed to get their own game going, Chipp’s extremely low life total will put him at a disadvantage.

Most Diddy complainers just don't understand the guessing game and get frustrated, or don't have the technical skill to get the punishment they could get once they get past Diddy's crap and land a grab or hit. On the other hand, against top players, bananas can be used back to get openings, and Diddy loses once the opponent gets momentum.

The end result is that we have a character that is probably right around #10 in the game, who is good but not too good, who doesn't really need much nerfs, who has a very unique neutral game, and a good design that allows different styles of play (aggressive and campy) depending on matchup. He's very unique, he's good but not too good, and interesting. Diddy doesn't require much change, except for the unfortunate occasional "punish you for punishing me" that barrel rockets cause.

 

[Zujx]

No. These suggestions are terrible and would turn Diddy in to a terrible character. He's already probably not top ten in the game, and even if he was there's no reason to nerf; he's clearly not the best or particularly close to it. Link, Lucas, Pit, Marth, Fox, Falco, and Wolf are better than him and Mewtwo, MK, Mario, and Snake are probably better than him.

He's got straight up bad matchups in Mewtwo, Zelda, Luigi, Kirby, and others. He's a very well balanced character and ripping him apart like you want to just to satisfy complainers would be a shame and end his viability.



You are either not a Diddy player or are bad at fighting Diddy.


People who want one banana don't understand naner logic.

Play your game to threaten Diddy if he pulls his second naner.



* If Diddy cannot pull a second naner, his opponent grabbing his banana is an enormous disadvantage. Diddy needs the ability to pull his own naner, or suddenly naners become way too risky to let go of. This would actually encourage Diddy to become very campy (as naner OOS is really, really good) so as not to let his naner get in the opponent's hand (whereas right now, if his opponent goes for a banana, Diddy pulls another banana, and they each have one). Diddy would camp for OOS naners or whiffed attacks if he couldn't pull his own naner in response. Can you imagine a game in which Mario loses his fireballs for fifteen seconds if his opponent reflects one, or Peach loses her turnip if someone catches one? Especially this game where it is really easy to catch items (you can even instant AGT if you're offstage so there's no downsides). Two naners on stage keeps the match flowing. Without the ability to pull a second naner when your opponent gets one, Diddy would hold on to his naner for guaranteed followups only.

* A single naner reduces the technical complexity of a character- it's a very common thing for Diddies to throw one naner using something like AGT to cover their attempt to reach a second naner. Techniques like glidetossing and AGT allow Diddy to move during the throw. Diddies use a lot of ATs to move themselves from one naner to the other with their projectiles. Without two naners, there's much less point in these motion techniques, and Diddy's technical requirements go down by a lot.

Project M has already countered the strength of two bananas...through faster, more aggressive gameplay. It's very hard for Diddy to get his second naner out if his opponent understands the risk of that.

Diddy is especially unique in that he can threaten people in the neutral game. His opponent is forced to stay on Diddy, because if he doesn't, Diddy can get two bananas out and set up the stage to control the techchases that follow from a banana hit.

This is where people's lack of matchup knowledge frequently shines through. When the game is reset to neutral, people often let Diddy run away and get two naners. Good people don't do this, because in the high speed of PM...it's actually pretty hard for Diddy to get true control of both naners if his opponent doesn't leave him alone.

If you check the Diddy critique thread on Smashboards, just a couple days ago we had a discussion about how Junebug's biggest issue is that he would always try to get his second banana when he should be keeping his opponent moving and the attempt to get the second banana always allowed his opponent to get a positioning edge on him. In fact, with the high speed of PM, it's very, very hard for Diddy to get his second naner if the opponent understands that it's his opportunity to get a positional advantage.


If you watch good PM players against Diddy, what they do is prevent the Diddy from eever getting his second banana out by always being in a position where going for a second banana pull will cause the Diddy to cede the neutral game.

This is a mistake Junebug (and myself, actually) makes frequently- partially because of Brawl habits (you don't get punished as hard, ceding the neutral game is often worth it for the second banana which punishes harder in Brawl than PM, because there is no naner teching in Brawl). Often, taking any opportunity to pull your second banana cedes the first one to your opponent, or gets you hit.

You'll often see good Diddies not even getting that many naners out, because their opponent stays in a position where refusing to cede that neutral game (and thus not going for the second naner because he can't) is what they have to do.

The naners are Diddy's pressure. Letting Diddy get two naners out and one of them in hand is the same thing as letting Falco dair your shield. The threat of two naners forces your opponent to always stay close enough to you to punish your attempt at a second naner pull and makes the match move forward at a fast pace. You have to keep on Diddy in the same way you have to keep Falco from getting on to you. The fact that this logic is inverted is why people think Diddy is too good (they think they're doing well when Diddy is trying to get his second naner and ceding ground).


Now add to this that Diddy is the perfect combo weight- he gets destroyed if he actually gets hit. This makes for what is, in the end, an extremely well balanced character- a character that is extremely threatening if you let him control the neutral game, but can be threatened in to not being able to get his position of strength, who falls apart when he gets hit without his stage setup. He's got a very solid game without naners, but he gets combo'd like a spacie without being able to pressure and combo like a spacie if he doesn't have a naner. He needs the strong neutral game to overcome the fact that when he gets hit he gets hit bad.




This is, sorry, straight up bad reasoning.

Grounded bananas are not mines. You can take control of them by wavedashing over them or pressing Z as you land. They do no damage on trip, and only initiate a guessing game (and you can tech them), and ignore certain states (float, Fox's dash attack, etc).

The best use for grounded bananas are limiting options in techchases. That's it.

Diddy tries to keep you in guessing games because once you get in on him, you can combo him badly. He crushes people who don't understand banana play (because they miss their moments to take control), and he crushes people who can't combo fastfallers (because once you get in on him you miss your chance to destroy him), and people who don't know how to edgeguard (because he's actually very edgeguardable).




I agree that the misfire shouldn't be so random, but otherwise, no. Diddy can't sweetspot the ledge when recovering with a high charge. People rush out to hit him when they can just stand there and prepare to cover all his options when he releases.

Diddy's recovery isn't nearly as big an issue as people like you think it is.

Thanks for your well thought out posts praxis, I've always thought diddy is pretty decently balanced and the naner game defines him
But you just taught me alot about why very good read

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

He says be reasonable then tries to butcher the character lol.
1. If they do remove the barrel misfire, (which I think is unique and love intentionally using the angle to trade), why would you lower how far he can recover and add landing lag on top of that? His upb is very easy to punish as is cause of how hard it is to sweetspot.(Though this may be because I play with diddy, I find edgeguarding it a none issue.)
2. Single naner? All of diddy's projectiles can be used against him, do you see people throwing waddle dees back at ddd? Do you grab samus's missle out of the air and throw it back at her? They are his item, so he should have a better understanding of how to play with them than the opponent. Outside of that they are mostly used for lowering the opponent's options, and giving diddy an s tier oos option. Fine as they are.
3. Options that should be implemented. Fair should have slightly more upward angle to allow for better d.i. Forward smash should have base knockback and knockback growth slightly reduced. Outside of that he is fine from a balance perspective.
4. Buffs that should be implemented, yes buffs. Up throw is a kill throw? If yes, then the knockback growth(not base knockback) should be slightly increased to kill about 8-12% sooner(the angle is fine). Not killing jigglypuff till 142% on GHZ is kind of sad. Downsmash should get a minor (and i mean very minor) buff in knockback growth to compensate the fair and fsmash nerfs. diddy's down smash is a slower weaker poor man's mario down smash as is cause he has better setups for it, but making it kill about 5-7% sooner isnt the end of the world.
5. The last and most important buff of all. Winning with the shades on invokes a special celebration

 

[DeFish]

5. The last and most important buff of all. Winning with the shades on invokes a special celebration

If you want to run for president, you have my vote.

 

[TylerX5]

He says be reasonable then tries to butcher the character lol.
1. If they do remove the barrel misfire, (which I think is unique and love intentionally using the angle to trade), why would you lower how far he can recover and add landing lag on top of that? His upb is very easy to punish as is cause of how hard it is to sweetspot.(Though this may be because I play with diddy, I find edgeguarding it a none issue.)

Misfire barrels require low-skill for good recover positioning. It isn't something that should be in a competitive fighting game

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Misfire barrels require low-skill for good recover positioning. It isn't something that should be in a competitive fighting game

Part of my like of the misfire is for the nostalgia of brawl, and it adds a chuckle to the game. I have never seen it kill someone(would make it near set knockback killing only near 180+)its just a get off me strike for me. The it takes no skill to misfire i would counter and say it adds skill to edge guarding an otherwise easy to edge guard character. Diddy is a combo fodder gold mine for the majority of the cast, ( including diddy) so that was the original justification to adding something to his recovery to punish poor edge guarding. Its either that or forbid give the upb jigglypuff pound priority and same knock back throughout or some other outrageously stupid idea

 

[TylerX5]

Part of my like of the misfire is for the nostalgia of brawl, and it adds a chuckle to the game. I have never seen it kill someone(would make it near set knockback killing only near 180+)its just a get off me strike for me. The it takes no skill to misfire i would counter and say it adds skill to edge guarding an otherwise easy to edge guard character. Diddy is a combo fodder gold mine for the majority of the cast, ( including diddy) so that was the original justification to adding something to his recovery to punish poor edge guarding. Its either that or forbid give the upb jigglypuff pound priority and same knock back throughout or some other outrageously stupid idea

1. Brawl Nostalgia? Adds a chuckle to the game? None of that has anything to do with balance. If you want stuff like that go play Brawl Minus.

2. It's not a killing move, what it does do is mess up spacing for the edge guarding player in a non-skillful way

3. How does it add skill? Do you mean Depth? Either way I would have to disagree with the basic design premise since it's basically a thoughtless attack that punishes an opponent for properly spacing and timing an attack.

4. Misfire Barrels are a passive attack that require no input on the part of the attack. Jiggly's move requires an input. They're not comparable in the least.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

1. Brawl Nostalgia? Adds a chuckle to the game? None of that has anything to do with balance. If you want stuff like that go play Brawl Minus.

2. It's not a killing move, what it does do is mess up spacing for the edge guarding player in a non-skillful way

3. How does it add skill? Do you mean Depth? Either way I would have to disagree with the basic design premise since it's basically a thoughtless attack that punishes an opponent for properly spacing and timing an attack.

4. Misfire Barrels are a passive attack that require no input on the part of the attack. Jiggly's move requires an input. They're not comparable in the least.

I agree with Sorrow, since the barrel misfire is super easy to avoid. The only thing it takes to punish Diddy's recovery is to wait on stage and predict where he'll land, since it's super difficult to sweetspot the ledge. I know I only sweetspot it when I'm below the stage which only happens when I accidentally Side B underneath it anyway, so it's safe for the majority of the time to wait on stage to punish. And often what happens is that you'll be able to knock a Diddy player off stage again anyway, making it so they have to use their recovery again, which you can punish easily onstage again. If you're so scared, you can hold shield and shield grab to throw them back off stage or spot dodge when the Diddy gets near before punishing.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

1. Perhaps he wasn't getting what I was saying on the barrel misfire. In the demo version diddy's upb had invincibility frames making it pretty much have the priority of a shine ( Even more priority than pound) and had the same knockback throughout the move. Don't want those implemented.
2. Diddy has a recovery difficult to sweet spot with , and the barrel misfire acts as a deterrent from indefinitely hitting him while he is in the air. And forces you to decide rather to do a closer to the edge hit that has a chance of being punished by a barrel misfire, or track his trajectory on stage and punish that landing. Getting a barrel misfire is the equivalent of trading a hit with a person's recovery. (If this occurred battling falco side b with a passive phantasm, that would probably be your stock). Not too many diddy mains are overly in favor of the misfire, its just this has been the most fair incarnation of the upb , and we don't want to get over or under compensated for the tweak when we dont have a better idea for it. Especially when as of now he is not in anyone's top 8, and we may be seeing a nerf to fair(angle) and forward smash(knock back) without any kind of buffs, such as down smash(startup or knock back growth) or up throw knock back growth.

 

[Praxis]

1. Perhaps he wasn't getting what I was saying on the barrel misfire. In the demo version diddy's upb had invincibility frames making it pretty much have the priority of a shine ( Even more priority than pound) and had the same knockback throughout the move. Don't want those implemented.
2. Diddy has a recovery difficult to sweet spot with , and the barrel misfire acts as a deterrent from indefinitely hitting him while he is in the air. And forces you to decide rather to do a closer to the edge hit that has a chance of being punished by a barrel misfire, or track his trajectory on stage and punish that landing. Getting a barrel misfire is the equivalent of trading a hit with a person's recovery. (If this occurred battling falco, that would probably be your stock). Not too many diddy mains are overly in favor of the misfire, its just this has been the most fair incarnation of the upb , and we don't want to get over or under compensated for the tweak when we dont have a better idea for it. Especially when as of now he is not in anyone's top 8, and we may be seeing a nerf to fair(angle) and forward smash(knock back) without any kind of buffs, such as down smash(startup or knock back growth) or up throw knock back growth.

This is actually a really good argument to keep the barrel misfire. I've had a ton of situations where I really had no option but to repeatedly up-B in to the same attack five or six times in a row until it either killed me or I could use the barrel misfires to have a shot at getting onstage.

 

[TylerX5]

it's super difficult to sweetspot the ledge.

Practice

 

[TylerX5]

it's super difficult to sweetspot the ledge.

Getting a barrel misfire is the equivalent of trading a hit with a person's recovery. (If this occurred battling falco side b with a passive phantasm, that would probably be your stock).

No it isn't. If you trade with someone's recovery that's entirely on you for not properly spacing your attack and/or timing it. The barrel Misfire hit regardless if you traded with Diddy's up B or not.

If you get hit with Falco's Side B while off the stage then you misjudged the situation and are punished for it. With Diddy's Misfire barrel you can judge the situation correctly and still be punished for it

 

[TylerX5]

This is actually a really good argument to keep the barrel misfire. I've had a ton of situations where I really had no option but to repeatedly up-B in to the same attack five or six times in a row until it either killed me or I could use the barrel misfires to have a shot at getting onstage.

Getting hit off the stage is the player's fault and it's suppose to put you at disadvantage because you inherently have less options. Not to mention Diddy Kong has the ability to Mix up his UpB's trajectory, length, and velocity. He already has enough mix ups he doesn't need the Misfire barrel.

 

[TylerX5]

admittedly Diddy does have an odd sweet spot

 

[TylerX5]

Or how about this: at any point In Diddy's UpB he can Press B again which will remove his rockets (they will fall down similar to sonic's spring). He will still have some inertia from the Rockets (which will be dependent on the when in the Up animation he cancels, and how long it was charged for) and with a slightly increased magnet (sweet spot distance) he can more easily sweetspot.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Or how about this: at any point In Diddy's UpB he can Press B again which will remove his rockets (they will fall down similar to sonic's spring). He will still have some inertia from the Rockets (which will be dependent on the when in the Up animation he cancels, and how long it was charged for) and with a slightly increased magnet (sweet spot distance) he can more easily sweetspot.

This is constructive assistance. While it may be harder to implement, this idea addresses the fact that his sweet spot is above the ledge, and the annoyance people have with misfire. It is still at the end of the day a nerf, but not nearly as bad as other suggestions. keeping in mind the game has a couple of hot fixes before something like this will be touched, I.e mstall2 . It may also be hard to code diddy's upb to not misfire since it did that in brawl as well without having to completely revamp the move like they did pit's upb. Time will tell.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

Practice

Ok yes, but until that time, can't you just stay on the stage and punish them there?

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Barrel misfire is great, but its also ridiculous. It can't really be in the game the way it is and have anyone see it as fair. It shouldn't have hit boxes until explosion

 

[Praxis]

Practice

When he says "it's difficult to sweetspot the ledge" he means "Diddy can only do it from a very, very specific spot, and with a very, very specific charge, which means it is very, very easy for people to edgehog him during that moment, and if he does anything else such as charge longer or up-B earlier, he's free game for anyone standing on the stage".

This is an actual limitation of Diddy's recovery.

I am not going to reply to any more posts in this thread because your replies are increasingly whiny nonsense.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Lol this post was already dead two days ago.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I am not the nerf cry guy and I don't really think Diddy needs nerfs, but I would agree with the misfire barrels because they are random and hard to react/adapt too. They damage the concept of edgeguarding. Otherwise, plz keep Diddy Kong like he is. I love the concept of this character and don't want him to be ruined.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Even though this post is dead, friends far more technical than I went through the process of testing some ideas.
1. Straight same recovery no misfire. While not unplayable, it noticeably weakened some of diddy's options.
Example: OOS up b became less threatening, and the lack of threat of misfire made it easier in general to focus on the length of the held charge, even in the heat of battle. In essence, diddy became a fox in the recovery department, which was not terrible, but his neutral didn't really warrant it. At least fox can sweet spot more easily. I could for see as people got better at edge guarding him, he could be as bad as falco off stage if he already used his side b
2. Idea two proposed by Tylerx5, while sounded like a good idea at first, had severe consequences. The upb rocket drop made recovering with a tether next to impossible. Combine that with an increased magnet size, and you have a pseudo sheik stall at the edge of the stage, with a sonic spring lol something I assume the pm team is trying to avoid. (Admittably it was difficult to do but still possible) While the game isn't perfect, it is difficult to make changes when there is no certainty to the outcome. Never know how person x will abuse what seems like a simple mechanic.
3. Was not able to go to option three, which was set knock back on misfire, but that may end up being the best option, while we all cant agree on misfire in or out, we can all agree you should not die from it. This also being the easiest to fix of the three solutions.

 

[Praxis]

IMO we should just have misfire only do 1% and have low knockback growth. That way it will never kill you or do significant damage but Diddy can still use it to get back on stage sometimes after being hit back off over and over.

 

[Seagull Joe]

And yet Diddy players do it constantly during a match. The complaints about bananas are ridiculous, and that horse is so beaten that it's now a puddle on the ground.

I was at a local a couple weeks ago and ran through the bracket until I played against someone playing Pit that was a Diddy main in Brawl.

ADHD?