Yoshi v. Captain Falcon

[Delta-cod]

Not including gimps* I should've known you guys would bring that up.

There's a fine-line between theory-crafting and explaining what can happen in a real match. I'm explaining what CAN happen in a real match because some doucher basically said "only bad Yoshi's get predicted".

Too lazy to read back on the older posts but I don't think I called you out on theory-crafting about ledge options. Prove me wrong and I'll shutup.

But **** you guys are worse than the Wario Boards. 45-55 Yoshi final ratio bye.

You're as bad as A2ZOMG is at theorycrafting. You're just assuming that the Yoshi has no mindgames, and that everything Yoshi does is going to be predicted by Falcon. You neglected ledge drop > DJ as a ledge option. Good luck kneeing that.

Seriously, get out of here. Let some Falcons with sense discuss this match up. You're just acting like a wannabe.

 

[Davidlazer]

Seriously, get out of here. Let some Falcons with sense discuss this match up. You're just acting like a wannabe.

This.
And also, Celes makes a good point in saying that you won't pressure us enough to force a roll towards you, in basically any situation, as we have several solutions to just get out.

 

[Delta-cod]

I highly recommend everyone ignore lordhelmet from this point forward. He's wasting time with his stupid points. >_>

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

I still wanna know what a GUA is tho

 

[YOSHssb]

I still wanna know what a GUA is tho

From the ledge a "get-up-attack"

Maybe I can get Ozz in on this. He's got the Yoshi/Falcon experience and he knows what he's talking about. He's not a CF main, but I know from playing him that he's good (not as good as Ally, but good enough to help the discussion).

 

[Darky-Sama]

Oi, this discussion is going downhill.

Any of the Yoshis want to state or ask something beneficial to the match-up from their side of things- and lets avoid anymore theory-craft and stupid arguments. Both boards will benefit from this being as accurate as possible.

If no one can think of anything to say, the ratio is 45:55, Yoshi, imo. You can always agree or disagree with that and give reasons so we make some progress.

 

[teluoborg]

And now for something completely different : matchup experience.

Yoshi's killing options :
-Reliable : Usmash
-High percent : Nair, sour Fair, Utilt ?, Ftilt ?
-Punishers : Fsmash, Uair, down B, Dsmash ?

Falcon's killing options :
-Reliable : Bair
-High percent : 2nd hit Nair, Ftilt, Uair, FK
-Punishers : Dsmash, Utilt, Fsmash, KNEEEEE, Usmash


So it all comes down to these 2 questions :
Does your opponent do stupid stuff ?
Does your playstyle make you keep your reliable KO move unstale ?

And that's it, if you have any question ask away and I'll answer them because I'm awesome (and I have matchup experience).

 

[YOSHssb]

No on the forward-tilt, or up-tilt. I think I've killed someone once with forward-tilt at like 210% on the edge. As for down-smash, I don't think so. It's fast, yes, but as for killing, probably not until about 190% and your opponent should already be dead by that point (Yes I know CF is heavy, but even he should be dead before that). Since CF's also harder to kill off the top than the side, I personally wouldn't use up-smash for a kill but for damage.

Kills with Yoshi are more about set-up rather than landing a kill move flat out. For instance, neutral-B (Egg-lay) will put you in the air which is a great set-up for an up-aerial or neutral-aerial. Also, once you're in the air, a Yoshi can throw an egg which you can either avoid by him just missing or mid-air dodging. To my knowledge, CF doesn't have any aerial that can beat an egg-toss. So if the egg hits, CF is still in the air and Yoshi has the option to throw another egg, pivot grab (which can send you back up into the air), or punishing whenever CF gets to the ground.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

And now for something completely different : matchup experience.

Yoshi's killing options :
-Reliable : Usmash
-High percent : Nair, sour Fair, Utilt ?, Ftilt ?
-Punishers : Fsmash, Uair, down B, Dsmash ?

Utilt and Ftilt shouldn't kill (eggroll kills before they do) also Uair is pretty reliable because Usmash tends to be stale imo. And we have guaranteed Down b kill setups out of a jab. Dash attack is a really good punish for spot dodges and landings cause the hit box lasts forever.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Lordhelmet: "We **** all of Yoshis options!"
"But it's 45:55 Yoshi wins"
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This I lol'd too.

 

[teluoborg]

@Yoshssb : Yeah I know. But that's what I noticed from playing 2 consistent Yoshis (the best being Zudenka).
I got more death by Usmash than by all the other options (not counting gimps).
Dunno why, maybe because it has a giant delayable hitbox, maybe it's because Falcon has a weak point before landing.

Or maybe it's just because I'm bad at vertical DI lmao.

@Celes : Uair is way harder to land than Usmash. I agree that it's pretty powerful but it's rather easy to predict (no mix ups and no set ups) hence to avoid. Also I don't think Yoshi's DA kills, but I might be wrong.
And jab > bomb isn't much different from Fsmash.
I mean, as a Falcon if I want to play safe I won't ever stay in front of Yoshi (because he has too many options in this zone), so as long as I try to avoid pivot grab and Fsmash I shouldn't be caught by a jab.

 

[Deleted member]

Not including gimps* I should've known you guys would bring that up.

There's a fine-line between theory-crafting and explaining what can happen in a real match. I'm explaining what CAN happen in a real match because some doucher basically said "only bad Yoshi's get predicted".

Too lazy to read back on the older posts but I don't think I called you out on theory-crafting about ledge options. Prove me wrong and I'll shutup.

But **** you guys are worse than the Wario Boards. 45-55 Yoshi final ratio bye.

Stop talking, you don't know what your talking about. I dont even know what falcon can do to land knees unless the yoshi is doing some obscure getup from the ledge like ledge hop DJC egg lay

And now for something completely different : matchup experience.

Yoshi's killing options :
-Reliable : Usmash
-High percent : Nair, sour Fair, Utilt ?, Ftilt ?
-Punishers : Fsmash, Uair, down B, Dsmash ?

Falcon's killing options :
-Reliable : Bair
-High percent : 2nd hit Nair, Ftilt, Uair, FK
-Punishers : Dsmash, Utilt, Fsmash, KNEEEEE, Usmash


So it all comes down to these 2 questions :
Does your opponent do stupid stuff ?
Does your playstyle make you keep your reliable KO move unstale ?

And that's it, if you have any question ask away and I'll answer them because I'm awesome (and I have matchup experience).

Good post i agree. Except down b is reliable from jab.


Upsmash is yoshis kill move with the most uses, beating lots of stuff, beating airdodge and spotdodge, and dodging moves.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Falcon's average KO percents against Yoshi:

Final Destination; Upward:
~110% (airborne) from Yoshi's Uair.
140% from Yoshi's Upsmash.

Final Destination; Sides:
95% from Yoshi's Fsmash near the ledges.
130%+ from Yoshi's Fsmash near the center.


Battlefield; Upward:
Top Platform:
~80% Uair.
~95% Upsmash.
Grounded:
110% Upsmash.

Battlefield; Sides:
75% from Yoshi's Fsmash near the ledges.
110% from Yoshi's Fsmash near the center.


---
That being said, the only Yoshi that I've played that was a decent challenge was Hadesblade, which he switched to Meta Knight after losing game one. lol... All the others have been extremely predictable and easy to read, so I'm just applying common knowledge here. Most of my Yoshi experience is with my primary (ZSS), not Falcon. This is just one of those match-ups that I rarely see happening.

 

[YOSHssb]

Who was the other Yoshi? I'm not saying that up-smash isn't a reliable kill move because I use it to kill a lot as well, but it's definitely a punishing kill move and not one that a Yoshi can just throw out and have it land. Basically every kill move for Yoshi should require a set-up of some sort in order to be reliable. The moves to rack up damage without staling anything are back-aerial, tilts, eggs, and egg-lay. None of those should kill. These rack up damage pretty fast actually, and all of them set up into kill moves.

As for those percentages you mentioned, they seem a little low to me honestly. Seems like with DI, Falcon should live longer than that...

 

[Delta-cod]

That being said, the only Yoshi that I've played that was a decent challenge was Hadesblade, which he switched to Meta Knight after losing game one. lol... All the others have been extremely predictable and easy to read, so I'm just applying common knowledge here. Most of my Yoshi experience is with my primary (ZSS), not Falcon. This is just one of those match-ups that I rarely see happening.

WHAT A DISAPPOINTMENT.

HADES YOU SUCK.

But really, killing in this MU in general relies on reads. It's really close to even.

 

[YOSHssb]

But really, killing in this MU in general relies on reads. It's really close to even.

^^^

I agree with this. Kills definitely rely on a good read. I think both characters can rack up damage equally and kill equally, but Yoshi's aerial movement (in my opinion) tips the match slightly in Yoshi's favor. So if I had to give a ratio, I'd say 55:45 Yoshi, but I won't claim that to be it without some more discussion.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Falcon can definitely live higher with better DI, that's just an average of what they can kill at normally. Falcon has a high knock back resistance, so he could live to percents higher than those pretty easily. I barely get KO'd below 150% unless it's by Yoshi's Uair (which oddly difficult for me to DI as Falcon).

And I agree, the match-up relies heavily on who can read their opponent better than the other. 45:55 Yoshi seems most accurate. 50:50 wouldn't really be pushing it either, but I think 45:55 Yoshi would be more suitable.

 

[Delta-cod]

We've been repeating this for the past two pages.

55:45, YOSHI WINS.

We've pretty much discussed it to hell and all agree.

 

[teluoborg]

The other Yoshi I played is TKS, I don't think he's known outside of France (even in France he's not really well known D: ).
And like I said I don't have a real explanation, only theories. Maybe it's because Usmash covers a lot of Falcon's landing options.

Also egg lay isn't reliable as a kill set up, since you can delay the release time by slowing down your mashing. It's still very good to rack up damage and approach though.



And I disagree about the ratio relying on reading since it's a player dependant capacity :/
The thing that makes this matchup Yoshi's adv is imo his horizontal game (aka air speed + air grab + pivot/dash grab + Bair) that easily invades Falcon's bubble.

I'll say 6-4 because I don't like 4 digit ratios.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Well, 4 digit ratios are definitely better than those bazaar ones the Falcon boards were trying to go with. What was it? 37.5:62.5? lmfaooo.

I don't know what those kids are smoking.

 

[Poltergust]

Too lazy to read back on the older posts but I don't think I called you out on theory-crafting about ledge options. Prove me wrong and I'll shutup.

OK.

All true. Reading/mindgames aren't really supposed to be considered in MU ratios though...

There.

Well, I don't know about other Yoshis because honestly I don't watch many others. But I do know that I and Poltergust for example don't ever use get-up-attack from the ledge or jump from the ledge. The safest option is ledge drop => double-jump air-dodge, and only if you have a clear opening should you attack and drop the heavy armor if you're punishing a shield (that's not like Marth, Samus, or Bowser) or it's a guaranteed hit.

It's not about reading your opponent on this one, it's about what most Yoshis SHOULD do off the ledge which is just using the safest options and playing the match-up the way it should be played which is how the match-up should be viewed.

Actually, Yoshi's >100% get-up attack is pretty decent. Does 12%, invincible throughout much of the animation, and never clashes. I use it when someone is charging a smash or something near the ledge.

His <100% get-up attack sucks, though. Don't use it.

And now for something completely different : matchup experience.

Yoshi's killing options :
-Reliable : Usmash
-High percent : Nair, sour Fair, Utilt ?, Ftilt ?
-Punishers : Fsmash, Uair, down B, Dsmash ?

Falcon's killing options :
-Reliable : Bair
-High percent : 2nd hit Nair, Ftilt, Uair, FK
-Punishers : Dsmash, Utilt, Fsmash, KNEEEEE, Usmash


So it all comes down to these 2 questions :
Does your opponent do stupid stuff ?
Does your playstyle make you keep your reliable KO move unstale ?

And that's it, if you have any question ask away and I'll answer them because I'm awesome (and I have matchup experience).

I would definitely classifly Yoshi's u-air as a reliable kill move. We can easily set it up with b-air, Egg Lay, and Egg Toss.

And Falcon's n-air kills? News to me.

I'm still sticking by my ratio of 60:40, though. Who knows, maybe it'll change when I play better Falcons, but for now that's my opinion.

 

[lordhelmet]

Wow there's so much stupidity and fail assumptions in here that I'm not even going to reply to all of it.

Yoshi mains getting mad for us not knowing Yoshi while they don't know **** about Falcon. Don't tell me to gtfo because you sound just as dumb to me as I do to you.

I'm sorry for explaining how Yoshi can get KO'd early by The Knee. And you guys are right, Yoshi will never get Kneed because he has the best air game in the world.

Celes why did you even bring up dtilt? Yes it's a good move to use if we're outside of our own Jab range and not far enough away to utilt you safely. And I was talking about ledge options Jesus Christ, sorry for not mentioning every single thing Yoshi can do from the ledge.

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi wont get kneed because he has so much airspeed(best in the game), and unless yoshi spotdodges when you jump foward at him (which would be silly), shouldnt be getting kneed. I play falcon dawg, and i guarentee you my falcon has made more money than yours.
It does happen, but probably shouldnt happen, probably less than one knee a set (dont get me wrong, knee is great, but yoshi is usually not in a position to get hit by it).

Sorry lordhelmet, i dont think even falcon mains would agree with anything you are saying.

Sayin that yoshis kill moves are more linear than falcons is a JOKE when yoshi combos into his and has a fast move that punishes like all of your landing options.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

[9/10/2010 5:37:25 PM] lordhelmet: I see a Yoshi start up a dtilt and I utilt
[9/10/2010 5:37:37 PM] David LeBlanc: Uh...
[9/10/2010 5:37:37 PM] lordhelmet: what can he do? block it and get ***** in his shield?
[9/10/2010 5:37:47 PM] David LeBlanc: Dtilt is faster than utilt
[9/10/2010 5:37:53 PM] lordhelmet: theory-crafting goes just about everywhere
[9/10/2010 5:38:05 PM] lordhelmet: utilt hits on 17, your dtilt takes almost 30 frames to complete dude


I saw that cringed and then felt the need to point it out. And you mentioning all of yoshis ledge options isn't important but you should at least use examples that yoshis commonly do

 

[lordhelmet]

David I was referring to as if Falcon was outside dtilt range T_T

You're acting like dtilt shuts us down lmfao

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Why would we dtilt if its out of range? And i never said anything like that. I just said Dtilt hits on frame 8

 

[lordhelmet]

Why would we dtilt if its out of range? And i never said anything like that. I just said Dtilt hits on frame 8

[9/10/2010 5:37:53 PM] lordhelmet: theory-crafting goes just about everywhere

We weren't on the same page can we drop this lol

Edit @ Sockz. I didn't say Yoshi's KO options were more linear, I just said Falcon KOs earlier... which he does. Don't twist my words around plz.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

K if we agree'd on the Matchup ratio why is this still going?

 

[lordhelmet]

Probably because we're all low tier mains and get overly upset when people don't know our character.

 

[Poltergust]

I don't agree with the match-up ratio... v_v

Oh well, at least it isn't as bad aswhen you guys said Samus was 35:65. You guys are so crazy. XD

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Captain Falcon:

A pure match of who gets the momentum and who doesn't commit. Yoshi doesn't have any true reason to shield with the tools he has. Grounded wise, Falcon wins due to having a better damage output, but Yoshi isn't that far off with his Jab lock options and resets. People can SDI it, but then you'll just reset the match back to normal. Both characters don't want to use their other moves unless they see a good opening (except for Yoshi's Dtilt). Smashes should be used to counter good spacing (the pull backs on some of the smashes are useful to counter spacing).

Air-wise, Falcon wins if Yoshi tries to force his way close to Falcon. However, this is not how this matchup should work. Yoshi is just spacing if Falcon decides to commit approaching (which is where wavebounced egglay truly helps). There's nothing else to really explain in this portion other than that.

Falcon does have decent edgeguarding options on Yoshi provided that Yoshi pays attention to where he's positioned at. If Falcon is near the ledge and Yoshi upBs to recover, Falcon can go under and punish it (unless we go low enough to where the egg stays in your way), or if Yoshi uses his armor, Falcon can attempt to screw Yoshi over with upB, but yoshis would have to be not paying attention to get hit by it. On the filp-side Yoshi has the same amount of options (possibly more). Throw an egg short distance to apply zoning pressure and Yoshi turns this into a guessing game. Airdodge, Yoshi punishes with Dair or DJ Uair/Nair. Dodge it (either by jumping over or something), and Yoshi has a slight chance to push Falcon back out. Obviously Falcon won't be challenging the egg since it beats his options.

Overall, a slightly winning matchup to Yoshi mainly because he can zone better and add a little more pressure than Falcon, but as I said, it deeply depends on who zones better and gains momentum first.

45:55 good discussion guys

 

[Deleted member]

[9/10/2010 5:37:53 PM]
Edit @ Sockz. I didn't say Yoshi's KO options were more linear, I just said Falcon KOs earlier... which he does. Don't twist my words around plz.

K, but falcon doesnt kill earlier. Yoshi is a lot safer as a character cuz of his mobility, and the fact that even tho falcon pressures yoshi well, he cant really punish a pivot grab with a kill move. Utilt is my fav with falcon when im trying to kill yoshi, downsmash for spotdodge happy ones, uair will usually happen around 160ish stale?

We done tho, i think we agreed on this.

 

[NeoBatou]

I don't agree with the match-up ratio... v_v

Oh well, at least it isn't as bad aswhen you guys said Samus was 35:65. You guys are so crazy. XD

Don't mean to start anything but what is your thought about how the MU ratio should be? 45-55 is a comfortable ratio in everyone's view except yours. Do you think Yoshi should be along the lines of 40-60?

 

[Z'zgashi]

I personally still think this mu is 60:40 yoshi as I don't have to many problems with falcon. If we play gay and keep him away with bairs and stuff it's hard for falcon to approach. Plus pivot grab is amazing at punishing spacing. There's more but I'm tired so I might continue later...

I'm just going to finish by saying that uair is a very legit ko option and is my personal favorite killer in this mu.

 

[Darky-Sama]

I think 40:60 would be pushing it a bit.

Also, I wouldn't risk pivot grabbing Falcon too much. Most Falcons are always short hopping and missing a pivot grab is just asking to be punished. Fastfall Uair, Knee, Dair (depending on momentum), FH Nair -> Up+B.

We did forget to mention that as well, not sure if the Yoshis know about that basic legit combo of Falcons for racking up damage. It's highly effective for punishing cooldown time as well, which a lot of Yoshi's moves promote.

First Hit Nair -> Up+B deals around 17%+ each go, depending if it's stale or not, possibly more. I forgot the exact percentage, but it's unavoidable. Of course, Falcon can keep spamming auto canceled fast fall first hit Nairs against Yoshi too; it's not that hard to keep pressuring him with Nairs. Yoshi's somewhat floaty character IIRC, so it could be possible to follow up with something else as well.

 

[YOSHssb]

Eh, we have most everyone saying it's 55:45, like, 2 saying it's 60:40, and I think 1 saying it could arguably be 50:50. Doesn't seem like this discussion is going to go any further so why not just call it at 55:45 Yoshi?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Alright, and yoshis who are involved, go here: http://www.smashboards.com/group.php?groupid=2360

and the mu shall be finalized