Yoshi v. Jigglypuff

[Delta-cod]

Jband, Jigg mains don't exist. We're just theorycrafting, here.

 

[#HBC | J]

Oh my bad I thought this was an MU export =p

 

[Poltergust]

You have a 3 frame window to Uair Jiggs from grab release on stage.

^What he said.

I don't understand what you guys are talking about. I've u-aired Jigglypuff out of a grab-release plenty of times.

 

[Delta-cod]

^What he said.

I don't understand what you guys are talking about. I've u-aired Jigglypuff out of a grab-release plenty of times.

Sorry, I forgot we had that option. I would have remembered if there were Jigglypuff mains to play against.

 

[Noobicidal]

Jband, Jigg mains don't exist. We're just theorycrafting, here.

In that case, I won't offer any input.

 

[Delta-cod]

In that case, I won't offer any input.

You main Ganon, not Jiggs. =P

 

[Noobicidal]

You main Ganon, not Jiggs. =P

Split-main, but we're just arguing over semantics here. Would you like MY input on the matter?

 

[Delta-cod]

Yes we would, good sir.

 

[KillerJawz]

You main Ganon, not Jiggs. =P

Then his input is all the more valuable!

Come hither Noob, all information on this match up is much appreciated.

 

[Noobicidal]

Yoshi out-ranges Puff to an extent, and has an easier time approaching due to that and egg spam. He's also a lot more free to rack damage with Usmash and Uair due to Puff's weight. A stale Usmash will still kill around 125%. Yoshi's Super Armor and somewhat flexible recovery is a ***** for Puff to deal with due to her off-stage game revolving around gimping and stage spiking. While Yoshi's SA is safe from Bair, Uair, and Nair, a sweet-spotted Fair from Puff will knock him out of it. Yoshi's height makes Puff's Bair camping exceptionally easy, and allows her to FH double Bair to her heart's content. Puff will find a bit of trouble killing (aside from Rest, which kills at around 80% with good DI), but racking damage isn't an issue with her.

There is no sure-fire counter pick stage against Jiggs, but do NOT take her to Brinstar or Pirate Ship. Brinstar has a "shark-able" bottom, and the small dimensions make killing as Puff exponentially easier. While one can argue that the smaller dimensions also allow Yoshi to kill earlier as well, Puff racks damage a lot easier to overcome that. Also, whenever Puff is in contact with any of the vegetation when using Rest, her hitbox nearly doubles in size. As for Pirate Ship, if you get in the water on the left side of the ship, you WILL die. All Puff needs to do is alternate between Nair and non-sweetspotted Fair to kill you. The water surrounding boat allows Puff to use Rest to her heart's content due to it canceling the "sleeping" frames of Rest. What this means is that Puff has constant access to her strongest move, Rest, which has frame 1 invincibility and hits on frame 2. Even if you're not in kill range, Rest is a surprisingly good damage racker, which can deal anywhere from 15-43%, depending on how long the flower is on top of Yoshi's head.

Don't attempt to time out Jigglypuff, and don't play aggressively. It's 60:40, or 55:45 Yoshi; whichever number the Yoshi boards will ***** about less.

 

[indigestible_wad]

Shouldn't delphino be a bad idea for us too? She can shark there and abuse water, both of which are reasons in the other two stages.

 

[Shiri]

Can't you just short hop down air when people try to jump through a stage like Delfino?

I would imagine even crawl back down tilt works marginally.

 

[Delta-cod]

Why is trying to time out Jiggs a bad idea? It shouldn't be impossible if you get a stock lead, and it's not a strategy I'd bank on, but it's still possible.

 

[~Firefly~]

I prefer to play keep-away until they come back up through the platform. (<3 our air speed) I would expect SH Dair to be too laggy to be useful, and we'd probably get punished for hitting at low %s because of the low knockback. Too risky and not enough reward IMO. Crawling Dtilt could work, but crawling is slow, and anybody trying to shark it could probably avoid it if they saw it coming.

 

[Z'zgashi]

@noob: We should never be getting hit by rest though, our speed/range/manuverability make it hella hard to connect. And we shouldnt really be in the water at pirate ship if we dont want to be either, we are fast enough and have enough jumps in the air to touch ground easily. Plus that stage is quite large giving us space for what we need. I will say that brinstar is her best stage against us btw. Yoshi is imo one of jigg's hardest match ups as we are better than her in almost every area, we have less lag overall, we have faster air/ground speed, we have better kill moves, better damage rackers, a good projectile, we are heavy and very hard to kill, we juggle you easier than almost every character in the game, you can die ridiculously early, most of your kill set ups have zero to almost no effect, etc., etc. I could go on if i wanted

EDIT: rephrased a bit

 

[Noobicidal]

@noob: We should never be getting hit by rest though, our speed/range/manuverability make it hella hard to connect.

It's not like Jigglypuff will just "throw out" a Rest. The only real times that Puff will rest is after a tripping Dair (Drill Resting), or having a way to counteract the ending lag of Rest (Water, Springs, etc). If it won't connect, we probably won't use it.

And we shouldnt really be in the water at pirate ship if we dont want to be either.

I'm not saying that you will ever want to go into the water, but if you do, you WILL die.

Yoshi is imo one of jigg's hardest match ups

I almost spat my drink all over my screen after reading that.

we have less lag overall

Let's just look at frame data then. Jigglypuff's Fair hits on frame 8, and Yoshi's hits on frame 19. Bair is 8/10, Dair is 5/15, Nair is 6/3, Dash attack is 5/10, and Up Smash is 16/11, respectively. Other moves will not be listed due to Jigglypuff not needing to use them.

we have faster air/ground speed

I'll admit that your airspeed is SLIGHTLY faster than Jigglypuff's, but the ground speed relation is irrelevant. The only time that Jigglypuff needs to touch the ground is to refresh her jumps, and to kill, assuming Fair is stale.

a good projectile

Eggs can be safely canceled out with any of Jigglypuff's aerials, with Pound being the most preferred option.

we have better kill moves

Rest kills at 77%, and a fresh Fair kills at nearly 95%.

better damage rackers

A 2x stale Bair or more true-combos into another one, and Bair's damage starts at 12%.

we are heavy and very hard to kill

Opinion, but statistically speaking, Yoshi IS fairly heavy.

we juggle you easier than almost every character in the game

Please explain to me how the lightest character in the game is easier to juggle than any other character.

you can die ridiculously early

We can also choose to actually momentum cancel and DI properly.

I could go on if i wanted

Please do, because I need a good laugh.

 

[Delta-cod]

Does the splash of the eggs seriously not hurt Jiggs if you try to cancel it with an aerial?

 

[bigman40]

There's only certain moves that can actually ping egg toss safely. I'm fairly sure jiggs can't ping them with all her aerials.

 

[Noobicidal]

Does the splash of the eggs seriously not hurt Jiggs if you try to cancel it with an aerial?

The spacing is harder for Fair and Nair, but Pound and Bair cancel the eggs quite easily, even with the "splash" in mind.

 

[Deleted member]

Z stop please lord.

You are making it hard to stop posting!!!!

 

[Shiri]

We all know you never planned on stopping anyway, guy.

Delta, if you remember that talk on eggs we had a few months ago, you might remember me saying that the explosion and the actual hitbox of the egg while it's getting tosses are not completely separate. That is to say, there wouldn't ever be a situation where you would get hit by an egg and then also hit by that egg's explosion. The box merely adjusts its size and properties on impact, but it's not a separate box.

This is why characters can sometimes attack eggs; remember, the golden rule of boxes in this game and most standard fighters is that you can't interact with the same hitbox more than once, so if you can hit an egg, you pretty much automatically get a free pass through the explosion. It's a shame we can't have eggs explode at will, however, because not many things actually beat the properties of the explosion box. D:

 

[Yikarur]

you're right (there are weird exceptions) but the egg has 2 hitboxes one that does 8% and one that does 1%, the egg hit itself is 1% and the explosion is 8%, in training mode an egg hit counts as a 2 hit combo =P

 

[Shiri]

Wait, really?

o_0

Hang on, then...

brb

just got an idea

P.S. - This toooooooootally doesn't make any sense, hang on. Lemme try something.

P.P.S. - What the hell, this seriously doesn't make any sense, LOL.

 

[indigestible_wad]

Please explain shiri.

 

[Sharky]

you're right (there are weird exceptions) but the egg has 2 hitboxes one that does 8% and one that does 1%, the egg hit itself is 1% and the explosion is 8%, in training mode an egg hit counts as a 2 hit combo =P

and this is why people can't just say "lol powershield" to yoshi's eggs. =)

 

[Shiri]

But they do, which is the dumb part!

WTF is going on in this game anymore, LOL.

 

[Yikarur]

when the opponents shield is low they can't PS our eggs anymore, thats the great part.

 

[Noobicidal]

Not that this is related to the match up, but I can't consistently perform the two hit combo with Eggs in training mode.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Shiri, can you infract me for making such a BS post up there, i feel vulnerable without having any infraction points

 

[Shiri]

I cannot. Your avatar prevents me from doing so.

 

[Yikarur]

Not that this is related to the match up, but I can't consistently perform the two hit combo with Eggs in training mode.

you have to hit the char with an egg and the explosion, if only the explosion hits it's 8% and one hit. The Egg explodes itself in frame 60 after the throw.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I cannot. Your avatar prevents me from doing so.

Noooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!