Yoshi v. Sheik

[indigestible_wad]

Well it was an idea for touching the ground without the threat of needles.

 

[<π]

yoshi bomb has enough lag so that you could just wait for the stars to end before throwing the needles. but yeah creativity and asking questions is the best way to create solutions. keep doing what you are doing sir.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Is it really that impossible to dodge those needles? Cant we just sh air dodge them or something? :/

 

[indigestible_wad]

If the needles are fully charged they'll have a large amount of frames to hit us, and the point is that shiek waits for us to land before hitting us when we're in the air. If we have the ability to air dodge from the ground, wouldn't it be more practical to shield or dodge them while staying on the ground?

 

[Shiri]

The problem there is that spotdoding doesn't last long enough against full needle storm.

The problem with shielding is mainly the pushback, especially around platforms. You could also argue the shield drop sucks as well, but that's not relevant, I don't think.

Waiting for people to land and then using needle storm is good. I hadn't thought about that for some reason when I was asking about the dodging of needles.

 

[Z'zgashi]

But isnt that difficult to do if the yoshi is smart given our airspeed? We can just randomly back up before landing giving us enough time to SHAir Dodge forward through them right?

 

[Yikarur]

But isnt that difficult to do if the yoshi is smart given our airspeed? We can just randomly back up before landing giving us enough time to SHAir Dodge forward through them right?

Can someone translate this to a language I understand? (aka: I don't get what he said)

 

[Z'zgashi]

Aber ist das nicht schwierig, wenn die Yoshi ist smart angesichts unserer Fluggeschwindigkeit zu tun? Wir können nur zufällig zurück bis kurz vor der Landung gibt uns genug Zeit, um SHair Dodge nach vorne durch sie Recht?

 

[Yikarur]

hahaha xD thats awful

 

[Z'zgashi]

Dammit, google translator failed me again >.>

 

[indigestible_wad]

He's saying that if we move away with our airspeed, then short hop air dodge after hitting the ground, we can avoid needles. Right?

That shouldn't work. Needles are near instantaneous. You have a few frames when you land before you can do anything else. The sheik doesn't need to time their needles to hit us if they're fully charged. They have a million frames to hit us. Airspeed doesn't help in this case. I suppose there is more chance they can mess up the greater the distance we put ourselves from them, but that shouldn't really do much good, since most legal levels aren't big enough for this to benefit us.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Well my theory crafting is terrible anyways lol

 

[Poltergust]

Well, if we correctly predict that they are going to use the needles then we can always up-B to delay when we land and avoid them.

Also, about killing... don't forget that Sheik can change into Zelda when we get into kill percents. That basically evens the killing potential of both characters.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Well zelda shouldnt be approaching us very easily

 

[Shiri]

She throws things until you try to punish her with something aerial since she has land on lock

and then she upsmashes

so I mean

yeah

 

[Z'zgashi]

We even with our shield, blocking/dodging din's fire isnt that difficult, plus our eggs move MUCH faster at mid range

 

[Poltergust]

Even so, it is extremely difficult to avoid Zelda and her up-smash.

I mean, the move is good. You ARE going to get hit by it (especially if she gets you to the ledge... not a lot of good options there to avoid it). When Sheik turns into Zelda, you are forced to play a game of keep-away, or else it would be too easy for Zelda to hit you with it. =/

Oh, and remember: if Sheik/Zelda Transform right when they come off the invincibility platform, DON'T hit them. They are still invincible after they transform, so it would be a free hit for Sheik/Zelda if you attack them.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I learned that my very first tournament ever, round 1 i play our best shiek and he goes to change so i charge an usmash and zelda just ***** me... lol... it was funny though because i was such a noob, i tried it again

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

When does anything collide with downB stars .w. This is new to me...

A few projectiles do actually. Fire balls, Samus' suit etc. One of those things about Yoshi that either never got looked into or no one cared about enough to remember.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

I don't play yoshi's enough.

This is a clear example on how much I haven't been playing due to my location compared to everyone else in FL.

Which is why I still suck with Yoshi.

 

[<π]

I like your yoshi D-Torr...

I'll have my revenge yoshis!!

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

I like your yoshi D-Torr...

I'll have my revenge yoshis!!

 

[Sunnysunny]

D-torr. Your signature went so well with that post. xD ^^^^

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

My signature is so good, it goes with Guile's Theme.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Can Sheik crouch a pivot grab (or any grab for that matter)? I think Sheik's crouch can actually tip the scale in our favor.

 

[Airborne]

My signature is so good, it goes with Guile's Theme.

What doesn't go with that theme? XD

Can Sheik crouch a pivot grab (or any grab for that matter)? I think Sheik's crouch can actually tip the scale in our favor.

I doubt it, but you don't need it when you can easily hop over our pivot grab and fair us right on the nose, or just flat out punish a randomly thrown out pivot grab with needles, dash attack, DACUS, etc.

Besides, we most likely won't be pivot grabbing you unless you're landing or shielding.

Edit: OMFG, Torr, I just watched your sig while playing it; SO GOOD.

 

[<π]

no one has the reaction time to hop over a pivot grab and punish. in fact would you use yoshi's pivot on reaction to me short hopping as an approach?

I gonna throw out a no on the pivot grab.

but it wasn't the pivot that got. Me small errors lead to big damage from bair the occasional full dair; omfg, and uair. yoshi can rack damage and will combo you if you don't understand how to DI knock back and whether or not/when you should dodge out of combos

 

[indigestible_wad]

That's why you don't react. You predict. By your logic nothing can be reacted to in the game besides falcon punch and stuff that happens far away.

 

[<π]

If ducking pivot grab worked you wouldn't have to react or predict. it's be a great defence and would let you relatively be safe in very close proximity because of that. yoshi's pivot grab I'm gonna guess is less than 15 frames sheik gets off the ground at like 5 frames and out of grab range probably at like 7 or 8? sure you can predict put a bad one can very easily lead to punishment yoshi can punish land lag pretty well if he is close to you.

you can react to tons of stuff, you can try to predict even more. some stuff isn't worth trying to predict that's when the idea of zoning comes into play. you want to stay out of zones where your ability to predict is useless.

also I mis typed last post I'm gonna edit it.

 

[Poltergust]

Yoshi's pivot-grab comes out in 8 frames. XD

As far as I know, the only character I know of that can dodge Yoshi's grab by using a move is Lucas (f-smash... ouch). Not even Snake can crouch under our pivot-grab, so I doubt Sheik can, either.

 

[bigman40]

Yoshi's pivot-grab comes out in 10 frames. XD

Fix'd

10fixes.

 

[Shiri]

Dude, come on!

That was the perfect place for you to say, "10frames"

I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU MISSED THAT GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY

 

[<π]

lol no one is reacting to a ten frame move with a jump...

You can only react to falcon punch.

 

[Poltergust]

I've reacted to moves faster than that... but I guess you are just using an extreme example. ._.

 

[Airborne]

lol no one is reacting to a ten frame move with a jump...

You can only react to falcon punch.

You're the only one that brought up anything to deal with punishing on reaction.

Warlock Punch and Old Dusty can be dealt with upon reaction as well.

 

[<π]

I was being sarcastic about the falcon punch in reference to a previous post.

the average human can can react to something at about 7 frames. It is incredibly difficult to react to frame ten moves which is why even moves like Bower's ftilt is a viable zoning tool.

All this is really moot and not really moving discussion forward though.

 

[Judo777]

I punish Pivot grabs with fair.............. but more importantly why approach when u dont have to.

 

[bigman40]

Why play this matchup?

 

[Yikarur]

the average human can can react to something at about 12 frames.
.

fix'd

this is the thread of fixes.

I played germanys best sheik in friendliest last weekend and won almost always, I don't know why lol he is actually so much better than me.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yoshi is usually a lot better than he looks on paper :3