You guys should totally help me become better.

[Mr. Sandbag]

So, I haven't been on the scene that long, and I know for a fact I've become a lot better than when I first started.

But I'm still mad-trash-garbo.
Can you guys watch some of my videos and give me some pointers, please? It'd help a lot.
I want to try to improve a bit more. Got two tournaments in July.

Me vs. Carroll (Fox)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tVaX3hN5ew

My channel (Tag is 'Sweet.')
www.youtube.com/1nnovate

I know my biggest problem is I roll WAAAAAY too much. Breaking that habit at the moment.

Please don't hold back. I'll take everything with a pound of salt.
:D

 

[Meljin]

Just some piece of advices :
try to avoid as possible missing hits. I think that you are sometimes playing a smooth Sheik, who does only attack on opportunity, and sometimes, you just run and dash attack.

The problem is that you only dash attack when the Fox is absolutely out of reach - when he is jumping, for instance.

You may also try, but I'm not sure, to use more Nairs - in fact, I was waiting for a Nair while you did some sourspotted Bairs and it was surprising. Did you see how many times you got a little and weak hit because of that Bair ?


I think that, if you try to be somewhat aware of the opponent's position, you'll space moves better and get better results. No wonder why you missed those dash-attacks : you saw, some frames ago, that Fox was here, but you weren't looking at him the whole time, so it was as if he teleported - you probably didn't see him "disappearing"

Good luck trying to break those habits dude These advices are the advices I try to constantly think of, because we have some of these bad habits in common

 

[Mr. Sandbag]

Just some piece of advices :
try to avoid as possible missing hits. I think that you are sometimes playing a smooth Sheik, who does only attack on opportunity, and sometimes, you just run and dash attack.

The problem is that you only dash attack when the Fox is absolutely out of reach - when he is jumping, for instance.

You may also try, but I'm not sure, to use more Nairs - in fact, I was waiting for a Nair while you did some sourspotted Bairs and it was surprising. Did you see how many times you got a little and weak hit because of that Bair ?


I think that, if you try to be somewhat aware of the opponent's position, you'll space moves better and get better results. No wonder why you missed those dash-attacks : you saw, some frames ago, that Fox was here, but you weren't looking at him the whole time, so it was as if he teleported - you probably didn't see him "disappearing"

Good luck trying to break those habits dude These advices are the advices I try to constantly think of, because we have some of these bad habits in common

Thanks man!
One of my big problems is that I'm not an active thinker when I play. I seem to be on auto-pilot. I'm working on that as well.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Who loses to Carroll looooooooool

You seem bad at tech skill

 

[Meljin]

One of my big problems is that I'm not an active thinker when I play. I seem to be on auto-pilot. I'm working on that as well.

Armada also said he wasn't thinking actively while playing - on the Scar's "Lean Melee" thread if I remember well...
I don't think that this is the main goal of your progression ; you should, on the contrary, integrate some game's mechanics to your gameplay.

 

[Armada]

I never think while Im playing. I don't know why but it have always been that way and it works for me.

 

[Bieber]

I never think while Im playing. I don't know why but it have always been that way and it works for me.

WTF armada how is this true? you're probably the most adaptive player in the world, how do you adapt to your opponent so well if you're not even thinking?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Because he's reached the point where he doesn't need to actively commit thought to consciousness to make adjustments for the opponent's stuff. You are "thinking" regardless of whether you think you are or not. We process millions of thoughts we aren't aware of.

On that note, I don't consciously think much at all when I play in tournament matches. I feel it slows me down. I just play.

Friendlies are different though. Because in those I'm experimenting and thinking about success & failure so it makes sense to make that kind of thought process conscious.



I think your biggest problems are:

1) You have a really limited idea on how you want to be positioned in relation to Fox, and how to generally behave in response to him

2) Your basic tech skill seems really bad so you can't (or couldn't?) maintain that spacing or play an effective defense even if you knew what you were supposed to do

3) Combo decisions are generally bad

4) Edgeguarding is generally meh

5) Attack out of desperation (for defense, to shake them, etc) a lot

6) Bad at shaking people with things like WD OOS and nair OOS

 

[knightpraetor]

lol kk so harsh...isn't that basically everything in the game?

now i'm curious to watch it though. however, if KK says that it's probably true. on a side note for sheiks i realized that i was teaching my brother to play sheik like a marth and how to get grabs with sheik, but when we watched videos today of the top pro sheiks almost all of them in most matchups were shing everywhere like crazy.

As I was watching I realized my flaw, I assumed that sheik could be forced onto defense as easily as marth but her aerials have less lag and can be covered with low lag tilts, so both you, m2k and amsah almost never gave up space on the ground and rarely camped grab compared to a marth

makes me realize how little i know about sheik's matchups

 

[KirbyKaze]

No, that's not everything. I think he actually placed some of his bairs in good spots.

Regarding the Sheik vs Marth comparison, they're similar in a lot of respects and you can do a lot of superficial strategies the same with each of them but their differences become way more noticeable as you develop them. And they eventually become very different characters (in the neutral game and stuff) as you delve further into their gameplay.

Sheik, for instance, doesn't have Marth's dash dance (or grab range, but it's more the dash dance on this one) so we can't apply pressure while keeping the option to retreat open like Marth can. We can do a ghetto version of it, but it's a weaker strategy than using the numerous effective options we get from stuff like WD back and SH back. Marth doesn't have our godlike tilts, so things like WD back (things that are exclusively defense) are less effective for him overall than they are for us. But since his dash dance is better, he can get more mileage out of that.

That said, we also have needles and a better platform game. So we have more ways of going around the opponent and can cover different zones more effectively. The needles are a big chance because Sheik is way better about forcing characters to approach her and she can also use them to control space vertically (similar to Peach) and to initiate certain kinds of pressure. The platform stuff is important because it reduces our dependency on moving through the opponent when being zoned to the edge, and also gives us another way to control space that Marth can't usually take advantage of.

We also don't mind being on the ledge as much. Poofstall, ledgehop fair, ledgehop needles, a fairly decent get-up attack (below 100), and invulnerable waveland are a pretty good mix as far as ledgegames go.

I could go on but I don't really want to.

 

[Armada]

WTF armada how is this true? you're probably the most adaptive player in the world, how do you adapt to your opponent so well if you're not even thinking?

Like KK said Im thinking but I don't know Im doing it.
But that makes me to one of the people that dosen't "think" when they are playing.

And it's a boring answer but I have no idea how I do it. I just play and a lot of things are going great when it comes to adapting I guess

 

[KirbyKaze]

You donate conscious energy to learn something. As it becomes easier, you donate less energy to it. Eventually you don't need to think about it to do it because it's become natural to do it. As technique-oriented things become more natural and require less exertion to do, you can pay more attention to small details and other things like that (and the cycle keeps going for that stuff where certain observations and reactions to them eventually become natural).

That's just my IMO, but it makes sense.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Because he's reached the point where he doesn't need to actively commit thought to consciousness to make adjustments for the opponent's stuff. You are "thinking" regardless of whether you think you are or not. We process millions of thoughts we aren't aware of.

I like this bit

On topic, I'm not a very good player myself but I try to give some tips, most of these I'm working on myself:

-Roll less, get comfortable with wavedash out of shield, and wavedashing, dding, and foxtrotting in general. When practicing in matches try to play with a mindset of not rolling at all and explore other (better) options. Rolling = bad

-Practice shorthop, you full hopped alot. Sheik's shorthop is among the most difficult but hey, isn't she a cheap character anyway : D Also practice SHFFL fair, it's pretty darn good. Practice it till you can do it within a dream of a dream, under pressure

-Practice spacing in general, a lot of your grabs where badly spaced & you got hit with the shine. Go in training mode and get used to the furthest point where you can grab your opponent. Do this with all types of grabs: JC, boost etc.

-Practice movement and character control (foxtrotting is good)

-Practice aggressiveness in edgeguarding, examine options (in friendlies not in MMs tho).

-Reverse needle cancel, practice getting to the ledge fast and back up fast (perfect waveland)

You donate conscious energy to learn something. As it becomes easier, you donate less energy to it. Eventually you don't need to think about it to do it because it's become natural to do it. As technique-oriented things become more natural and require less exertion to do, you can pay more attention to small details and other things like that (and the cycle keeps going for that stuff where certain observations and reactions to them eventually become natural).

That's just my IMO, but it makes sense.

KK's imo is accepted by the modern theories of psychology.

Consider walking, it's pretty hard till you learn it.

More about subconscious processes: consider sight.

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah i only think in friendlies. In tourney i try to focus intensely on the space in between me and my opponent and can't even remember what happened 3-4 seconds back. I think conscious thinking on adaptation will just make you play worse. Instead you should just know what options are good at the spacing you are seeing and go for them. If you have a gut feeling that something hasn't been working for you switch it up...but definitely don't think too hard on it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I have a really good memory for things that happen during the game. But I don't always judge the events perfectly either.

 

[Bieber]

yeah obviously every player is subconsciously picking up on stuff and adapting all the time, but instinctual snap decisions like that are only a small part of the way players, and just people in general, adapt. when i'm playing well and adapting to an opponent, i'm constantly thinking "ok, now why did that happen" and trying to basically analyze everything my opponent is doing and thinking about how to use it to my advantage. of course subconscious adaptations are important to, because they happen much quicker than any actual reasoned thought and we can integrate it much faster (so for something like quickly picking up on teching patterns, this makes sense), but the fact that the most adaptive player in the world doesn't even bother with thinking during his gameplay is completely mind-boggling to me. but hey, if it works it works, and for armada it clearly works

sorry for derailing your thread a little bit mr. sandbag but I think this kind of stuff is really interesting

 

[Composeur]

This is an interesting discussion. We should try to get more top players to share their self-assessments.

 

[PGH Carroll]

Who loses to Carroll looooooooool

You seem bad at tech skill

rapeeeeeeeeeee looooooooool