Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[JST]

Zelda vs. DDD

Honestly, there are just a couple of important things.

Zelda is a better camper. D3 is almost forced to approach.

All of Zelda's attacks (Usmash in particular) draw D3 in like a magnet.

Zelda can't be CGed, but she can be tech-chased.

D3 has aerial superiority in the fact that he isn't as vulnerable as Zelda while he's in the air and has many more options.

D3 kills Zelda early. Zelda kills D3 at moderate percentages.

D3 puts enormous pressure on Zelda when he's close. SG makes it very risky for Zelda to attack (Or do anything for that matter).

D3 hits deceptively hard. Zelda will find herself in the danger zone alarmingly fast.

Same goes for D3.

D3 has more range and quicker start-up on some attacks.



Honestly, you guys should go around and play a good, smart D3. From what I've seen, Co18 is the best online D3. Go have a few matches with him and you'll have a good idea of D3. D3 is never an easy match-up, whether you have an advantage or not.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Maybe im not playing the best Zelda's or something but I havent played one thats given me that much trouble.

If you play wifi we can get some matches in sometime to learn more about the matchup and so we can see where we're both coming from.

I can't promise I'll represent us well since I play very hot and cold.... but, we'll see. if you have AIM that'll be an ideal way to set up a match

 

[adumbrodeus]

How does zelda **** him in the air? Ive not once played a Zelda that almost did anything to me in the air.
Dedede's bair pretty much ***** all her aerials.

Play better Zelda's.

And not online.

At low levels it does that, but at high levels of play, if both are spacing as well as possible, Zelda's fair and bair will sweetspot on DDD's foot. DDD deals damage to her, but Zelda's bair and fair do considerably more. Any other exchange will result in the person who's move came out first winning. Net advantage is Zelda here.

Uair again, requires good spacing, but with both people spacing as well as possible Zelda wins the exchange.

Ftilt comes out extremely fast and is not easily punishable. Even if you were to powershield it which is not easy you would still be out of range with any of zelda's attacks and if you try to close in youre just gonna get grabbed.

There's a reason why most DDD's do not approach with Ftilt, it's difficult to punish, but Zelda outranges DDD's grabs, so it's far from impossible. Not to mention the fact that it's easily punishable on prediction if that's all you have.

Dedede's dair basically is a savior from it since from what I know you have to be directly below someone to land it in which that case its close to useless.

"From what you know", you obviously don't. It has an EXTREMELY large hitbox, and beats out dair as far as range.

Dedede can rack up dmg quite well with bair, full hopped dairs, inhale, ftilt, and not to mention his godly grab game. He only has to get zelda to about 90% before he can kill her with up tilt.

None of which are safe against Zelda...

His back is facing you when he bairs?

Prior to the bair, yes.

Maybe im not playing the best Zelda's or something but I havent played one thats given me that much trouble.

Yeah haven't.

If you play wifi we can get some matches in sometime to learn more about the matchup and so we can see where we're both coming from.

Wifi destroys Zelda, even in the green the latency kills her spacing game which is absolutely CRUCIAL to this match-up. It's like Marth on Wifi, suddenly... he drops to low tier.

Even in person doesn't truly deal with the issue that we're talking about the top levels of play, there might not even be a Zelda/DDD that has fully incorporated every facet of their characters gameplay and can therefore showcase the actual match-up, though it can showcase the attributes.

Really, the technicalities of the match-up are what decide what it truly is, even if nobody is able to match this, yet.


But you don't have to be a top level player to know how a top level match will develop. There are certain crucial questions, with answers that are defined by raw character data, for example the fact that a perfectly spaced Zelda and DDD bair will result in both being damaged. The answers to those questions define who has superiority in any given situation, and the meta-analysis of all possible situations, as well as how often they should come up, gives the overall match-up ratio.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Ah, but heres a problem, Paper is paper, not real life, So unless Data comes from actual matches, its just theorycraft and nothing more.

 

[choknater]

Zelda mains are very smart.... hard to debate against....

I can't really back it, but since I play both Dedede AND Zelda, I'm gonna say I agree with CO18 that it's about 55:45 or 60:40 in Dedede's favor.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Zelda mains are very smart.... hard to debate against....

I can't really back it, but since I play both Dedede AND Zelda, I'm gonna say I agree with CO18 that it's about 55:45 or 60:40 in Dedede's favor.

Thank you.

Remember Zelda mainers, Your talking on paper, Its nothing more then Theorycraft. Get some videos of what you mean and we can decide off that? Of course, the D3 side would need to do this too, Wounder if any of them are out there?

 

[Villi]

Can we do Pit next? I have a lot of trouble with some Pits. His range/attack speed on the ground and aerial priority just throw me off bad. He's very hard to approach.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I think we are at a DDD standstill. it looks like MOST of the support in this thread is for zelda's advantage, but, even though I think it's a hard counter, it looks like if we want to pst it up and move on, we'll have to compromise for soft counter.

or we could leave it open?

 

[RoyalBlood]

Can we do Pit next? I have a lot of trouble with some Pits. His range/attack speed on the ground and aerial priority just throw me off bad. He's very hard to approach.

I already got a request for another chacarcter ^_^
After we're done with that character we'll move on to Pit

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ah, but heres a problem, Paper is paper, not real life, So unless Data comes from actual matches, its just theorycraft and nothing more.

Both have their issues. Theorycraft might be wrong, real life has enormous issues with a lack of good examples to showcase how a top-level match-up would develop.

But the main advantage of talking in theoretical terms is, ultimately hard data determines which statements are right and which are wrong. With enough people looking at the discussion, a mistake can be spotted and corrected.

Happened on the Marth boards with MK, people tested, and discovered Mk's dtilt was a few pixels longer in hitbox then Marth's, which meant Marth couldn't safely outrange mk on the ground. The guy who discovered it called BS on the assertions that Marth outranged MK, and the discussion was set straight.


So there you go guys. High-leveled discussions are all about safe, unsafe, hurtboxes, hitboxes, frames moves come out on, etc. All of which can be tested. If you think we're wrong about something, PLEASE TEST IT! And tell us, that way our match-ups can be accurate.

I know I personally tested to find out how fair and bair interact wih DDD's bair, and found that the moves both do damage no matter what and that it's possible (and not too difficult) to sweetspot on DDD's foot, then I found the approximate range of the move.

So, test and make BS calls if/where we're wrong.

Zelda mains are very smart.... hard to debate against....

I can't really back it, but since I play both Dedede AND Zelda, I'm gonna say I agree with CO18 that it's about 55:45 or 60:40 in Dedede's favor.

People who are right tend to be hard to debate against, or at least harder then the opposite.

I think we are at a DDD standstill. it looks like MOST of the support in this thread is for zelda's advantage, but, even though I think it's a hard counter, it looks like if we want to pst it up and move on, we'll have to compromise for soft counter.

or we could leave it open?

Leave it open, let people test and retest things, then we'll see how it ends up. Better a long wait for an accurate match-up then no wait for an inaccurate one.

But start the next discussion too.

This is why I like seperate threads for match-ups btw.

 

[-Mars-]

I agree, seperate matchup threads like the Wolf and Marth boards are imo a lot more accurate. Say we discover something new about G&W or Marth in the upcoming months what are we going to do? Make a new matchup thread? When they are seperate, the discussion is never closed and you acquire a lot more opinions.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I agree, seperate matchup threads like the Wolf and Marth boards are imo a lot more accurate. Say we discover something new about G&W or Marth in the upcoming months what are we going to do? Make a new matchup thread? When they are seperate, the discussion is never closed and you acquire a lot more opinions.

You didn't mention the Ganondorf boards, I'm insulted, lol.


But yeah, actually we just started rediscussing a match-up on the Ganondorf boards, because as it turned out, there was still more to discuss.

Sure, we've moved several weeks beyond it, but accurate match-ups are more important then time required to do the match-ups overall.

 

[RoyalBlood]

So I'll leave DDD open D=
If you're uncertain about a match-up or you have found something. feel free to dicuss it...again? D:
Next Update to come :3

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

hey. we have summaries now!

 

[SwastikaPyle]

I'd say one of Zelda's biggest strengths in this matchup is that it is almost comically easy to land a Lightning Heel on D3, as opposed to smaller targets like GaW or MK.

 

[Brinzy]

I know it's already been mentioned, but it's also ridiculously easy to edgeguard D3. If you don't think a LK will kill him off for whatever reason, you can just use Din's. If he's gonna Up B, you can just get under him and uair/utilt/Usmash. It doesn't matter which you choose - all three cut right through him.

D3 also moves fairly slow in the air. This means that his WoP strategies can be easily negated with a simple Farore's Wind through him, and chances are, Zelda can regain control before D3 even reaches her. He might as well just stay on stage and hope to edgeguard there for the most part.

The D3s that I played in tournies loved to spam their bair on me over and over again... yet they failed to realize that each and every single time they tried to take me on in the air, they were met with an obscenely simple lightning kick. I'm sorry, but as far as landed fair/bair goes against D3, the average player should be sweetspotting at least half the time. What can high level players do to change this at all? The only thing they can do is avoid getting hit - they can't magically make it so that their opponent Zelda only hits with a LK once after nine sourspots.

If it's not a mallet attack, for the most part, chances are Zelda can beat it in priority. Laggy smashes can land on Zelda at times... but if they don't land, enjoy eating any of Zelda's ground-based moves, all which do a fair amount of damage, set up into another move (Usmash at very low %s and dtilt), or kill. Ftilt is really the only thing D3 can use to keep at a good range from Zelda and not be too laggy afterwards... and that said, Zelda can just fool him into using ftilt and hit him with Din's. I do this pretty much all the time against D3s who like to play me on Battlefield, because they can't cancel it out due to the mallet being out and away from D3. It's easy to bait him - enter the zone *right* outside of his range and Din's. If he ftilts, free hit. If he doesn't, Zelda doesn't get hit.

D3's throws are relatively strong. A 3% pummel + a 16% (?) throw is nice damage. All of Zelda's throws do at least 10%. I think her strongest does 12%, and she has a pummel that does 2-3%. (It's more than 2% actually, but normally the game only shows +2%.) I want to say that D3 can kill with B-throw (though it has never happened to me personally), but I do know that Zelda's B-throw can kill him. Granted, she should only B-throw at around 140-150% and when she's at a decent range to do it. I'd say that their grabs are virtually even, D3 winning slightly because of the raw damage his do.

These are just some of the disorganized thoughts that crept into my head. I'm looking at 65:35 Zelda. Hurrah for being biased (D3 is my most hated character, not based off of abilities... and Zelda might be my favorite), but I just felt like posting.

 

[Lingy]

Question - when doing the whole ratio thing, is it just an estimate of how many wins that would occur for each character out of 100 games?

 

[RoyalBlood]

I think it's out of 10 games D:
And what does air speed helps???

 

[choknater]

Big issue that a lot of Zelda players aren't really touching on which gives DDD an advantage:

Even though Zelda might sound like she has a lot of spacing advantages, DDD can pretty much just run up, shieldgrab, shield->ftilt, or RAR bair and Zelda can't do anything about it.

What can Zelda do to DDD's shield? Pretty much nothing.

This is why DDD players consider the matchup in their favor. What Zelda players have going for them is spacing advantages, but they aren't great enough to prevent DDD from approaching.

Spoiler

I'm glad I play both characters because I can win the matchup either way LOL.

 

[Brinzy]

Why do people forget that she has a grab, too?

 

[Oh Snap]

(not directed to anyone) Cuz they're too busy hyphen smashing!

 

[RoyalBlood]

Oh noez! D: Choknater opened DDD again D:
Oh well
Updating =/

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

which is another point, Zelda's Usmash can eat through sheilds that aren't absolutely healthy.


now as for wolf. he's tough to approach, but he has a tough time approaching you.

his reflector is freaking annoying

his laser spam is also irritating, but since Nayru's sends it back at double speed, it's normally easy to reflect... and his other option at that range is Fsmash which nayru's ALSO rejects :D (you could TRY to time an Fsmash, but nayru's works a lot better.)


honstly I don't have a WHOLE lot to say on this matchup ATM besides that I play it a lot and who has the advantage seems to shift depending on the stage. so I'd have to say it's pretty even. 50:50 even... though switching to shiek makes it a lot better.

my worst stages against him seem to be any stage you can jump through (delfino, halberd, etc.) and I also have a hard time coercing him out of hiding on certain stadium morphs

 

[Lord Yawgmoth]

Wolf:

If he spaces the lazers right, Nayrus wont reflect far enough and he will have time to spam lazers again. I am almost forced to approach except at really far distances, where Dins is safe.

When i am sent in the air I have to hope he messes up. Airdodge seems to last longer than his attack, so when I come out, I am punished just the same.

I hate 'clanging' with wolf. <.< i always get hit because of it.
Alot of his attacks hit twice (yes, his forward tilt)making perfect shielding less of a good option. Some of his attacks are deceptively fast, and are weird to space well against.

That said, Nayrus does really well for some reason in this match,
I'm thinking slightly in Wolf's favor. maybe 45-55?

(haha, but I hoping someone else will come on here with some Uber method to pwning wolf and make me change my mind.)

 

[Oh Snap]

Can we do Pit next? I have a lot of trouble with some Pits. His range/attack speed on the ground and aerial priority just throw me off bad. He's very hard to approach.

Yes. Pit's are a pain in the *** ;(

Wolf I'd suggest to down+b and try to tilt lock...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I hate 'clanging' with wolf. <.< i always get hit because of it.
Alot of his attacks hit twice (yes, his forward tilt)making perfect shielding less of a good option. Some of his attacks are deceptively fast, and are weird to space well against.

I have that same problem... so I learned to instinctively spam down on C-stick after I attack just in case.



oh and as for stages:

DDD: Luigi's mansion >> battlefield IMO. not only is luigi's good for zelda, it's also bad for DDD as it completely screws up his waddle dees.

Wolf: Believe it or not, lylat cruise. it screws up his laser spam and it is just as bad, if not worse, for his recovery as it is for yours.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's 55:45 for Zelda. I wouldn't fight Wolf without Sheiks help though. Don't approach him. Zelda is one of the few characters, that can force Wolf to approach.

Lylat screws Wolf completely

 

[S2]

Can Zelda really force an approach though? Once Wolf is within laser range he doesn't need to.

Then again, I prefer Sheik in that matchup. If your trying to force him to be the aggressor, needles are more useful that Din's.


BTW, this is a really nice topic. I've been mia for a while, so it's nice to come back and see that RoyalBlood has started a comprehensive matchup discussion.

 

[Lord Yawgmoth]

Can Zelda really force an approach though? Once Wolf is within laser range he doesn't need to.

Then again, I prefer Sheik in that matchup....

both points exactly.


I can handle the matchup pretty well when I play as sheik,
it just bothers me that my zelda doesn't fare quite as well.



VERY Random Aside: Why is it King Dedede but not Princess Zelda? : P

 

[RoyalBlood]

both points exactly.


I can handle the matchup pretty well when I play as sheik, My Sheik sucks
it just bothers me that my zelda doesn't fare quite as well. Zelda is great =D



VERY Random Aside: Why is it King Dedede but not Princess Zelda? : P Because Nintendo is mean :X

Just stick to the ground with some air play and you'll be alright ;D
And i just found out that Zelda's aerials auto-cancel pretty nicely :D

VERY Random Aside : Why does the Zelda boards have so many Moderators o_O I actually think the Zelda boards have the MOST mods of all the characters, i guess we're that important xD j/k

 

[MorphedChaos]

Well, I think D3 has a new advantage if someone can master this really hard AT, the Jet Hammer Shuffle, basically it lets D3 move at the speed as Warioman on the Wario bike towards Zelda, and cuts the Jet hammer lag in half, while also giving it more power and unpredictability, Its a weird tech, but is really really nice. Also, Zelda's, don't forget, if Your going to Fair/Bair D3, he'll air dodge then Nair or Bair you, so thats a problem, due to your Fairs/Bairs having such bad wind-down lag. Also, D3 has more grab range then zelda by about 10 or so pixels (Can't remember exact number) so he can grab you before you grab him. your UpB, if not used immediately, can be hit through with D3's Bairs easily, and if he cna guess where you'll land, you could eat a Bair/Ftilt/grab/Utilt.... Maybe a Fsmash if he guesses right.

Right now I'm doing experiments with CG'ing Zelda, whats funny, if you or D3 grow big from a Mega Mushroom, he can infinite you >.>

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Well, I think D3 has a new advantage if someone can master this really hard AT, the Jet Hammer Shuffle, basically it lets D3 move at the speed as Warioman on the Wario bike towards Zelda, and cuts the Jet hammer lag in half, while also giving it more power and unpredictability, Its a weird tech, but is really really nice. Also, Zelda's, don't forget, if Your going to Fair/Bair D3, he'll air dodge then Nair or Bair you, so thats a problem, due to your Fairs/Bairs having such bad wind-down lag. Also, D3 has more grab range then zelda by about 10 or so pixels (Can't remember exact number) so he can grab you before you grab him. your UpB, if not used immediately, can be hit through with D3's Bairs easily, and if he cna guess where you'll land, you could eat a Bair/Ftilt/grab/Utilt.... Maybe a Fsmash if he guesses right.

Right now I'm doing experiments with CG'ing Zelda, whats funny, if you or D3 grow big from a Mega Mushroom, he can infinite you >.>

umm.... the jethammer thing would make him din's bait. maybe even bait for a number of other attacks.

and DDD won't ALWAYS airdodge, and the LKs are strong enough to make up for not connecting 100% of the time.

 

[SinkingHigher]

both points exactly.


I can handle the matchup pretty well when I play as sheik,
it just bothers me that my zelda doesn't fare quite as well.



VERY Random Aside: Why is it King Dedede but not Princess Zelda? : P

I suppose that way it would have to also be Princess Sheik... Not really the best disguise.

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

back to the wolf topic -_-

A friend of mine that plays Wolf has been using his up+b as an approach tool, it's pretty annoying when I think I'm far enough to spam Din's a bit and he comes right in with it. Any thoughts?

 

[GodAtHand]

Reason to random question on status = Zelda's true rank changed depending upon the game. Although we always refer to her as princess Zelda in some of the games she has been a queen or not royalty at all... but all descendants from the one the first princess Zelda

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

back to the wolf topic -_-

A friend of mine that plays Wolf has been using his up+b as an approach tool, it's pretty annoying when I think I'm far enough to spam Din's a bit and he comes right in with it. Any thoughts?

umm... if he's hitting you with this regularly, you are doing something wrong. it broadcasts itself and is easily sheilded and punisded OoS


also: **** it all to ****

if a metaknight can space and autocancel smart enough, he's just as bad as marth is. it's gotta be the same matchupm 60:40 MK

 

[RoyalBlood]

Well, I think D3 has a new advantage if someone can master this really hard AT, the Jet Hammer Shuffle, basically it lets D3 move at the speed as Warioman on the Wario bike towards Zelda, and cuts the Jet hammer lag in half, while also giving it more power and unpredictability, Its a weird tech, but is really really nice. Also, Zelda's, don't forget, if Your going to Fair/Bair D3, he'll air dodge then Nair or Bair you, so thats a problem, due to your Fairs/Bairs having such bad wind-down lag. Also, D3 has more grab range then zelda by about 10 or so pixels (Can't remember exact number) so he can grab you before you grab him. your UpB, if not used immediately, can be hit through with D3's Bairs easily, and if he cna guess where you'll land, you could eat a Bair/Ftilt/grab/Utilt.... Maybe a Fsmash if he guesses right.

Right now I'm doing experiments with CG'ing Zelda, whats funny, if you or D3 grow big from a Mega Mushroom, he can infinite you >.>

D: The problem is that first DD has to fully charge the hammer, then he has to reach Zelda, then he has to enter the swing animation and hit, not to mention that if Zelda runs and avoids him he'll have to release the hammer due to it doing damage very quickly to DDD, although with planned set-up it could work D:

 

[MorphedChaos]

Thats true royal, but then its soo unexpected that no one would expect it the first time.

As for wolf, the hardest thing I would think would be his areal and quick attacks? Not to mention the deceptive range of his Fsmash, and his spike?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Thats true royal, but then its soo unexpected that no one would expect it the first time.

As for wolf, the hardest thing I would think would be his areal and quick attacks? Not to mention the deceptive range of his Fsmash, and his spike?

problem is, she doesn't really have to expect it to respond to it.

it just SCREAMS "hit me with din's fire for free"

 

[MorphedChaos]

Could use it while Zelda is too far off stage as a Mindgame, thats all I'm saying. Who knows? Maybe it'll be able to work without a fully charged hammer one day? Then that'll be one scary tech... and a very very nasty approach.

As for wolf, wouldn't his shine be a really big problem?