Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[M15t3R E]

Pika vs Zelda!

Let's analyze approaches first.
Let's face it, both characters have difficulty approaching one another. Pikachu's t-jolt approaches are rendered useless by an alert Zelda, and QAC may work better but can still be smash-attacked if timed right. Zelda's din fire is an amazing projectile and spacing tool, but it hardly phases a good Pikachu. Plus, Zelda's speed doesn't hold a candle to Pikachu's, so you will have trouble getting in close.

Point-blank battling- After either player safely creeps into the other's close proximity, a number of tools are at their disposal. Pikachu can use grab combos on Zelda like he can on anyone, despite Zelda's floatiness. Pikachu can also space with his d-tilt. Zelda's main offenses will be jabbing and grabbing. For this reason, an experienced Pikachu can and will try to stay within mid-range.

Mid-range wrestlin'- Pikachu's t-jolts have more power at this distance as the Zelda's ability to counter it with Nayru's is limited. This can lead to the Pikachu making many approaches with t-jolts, and even QAC. This is, without a doubt, Pikachu's best distance to be from Zelda. Zelda's best option from here would be to plan on moving in closer to Pikachu, or at least mindgame with short hops and pull off a lightning kick on the unsuspecting Pikachu.

As implied before, at long-range the battle will never progress between a good Zelda and a good Pikachu. Din's fire and t-jolts will not do anything to the other character at such a great distance.

Edgeguarding- Both characters will have to pull something outta their backside to successfully edgeguard the other. Pikachu's greatest edgeguarding tool, thunder, isn't going to be of much use due to Nayru's reflecting effect. The better Pikachus will try to edgeguard with more nairs.
Zelda edgeguarding Pikachu should do what she always does- fire off Din's fire. This will not hit a good Pikachu, because they will know the timing of the air dodge. But as the Pikachu moves in closer to the stage, go for a lightning kick.


Pikachu and Zelda are born to fight one another as they both undeniably have attacks to disrupt one another's metagame. Both players will have to be extraordinarily cautious to be the last one standing, and so will probably change up their playstyles in ways they seldom do.

This match-up is an interesting one, and one of my personal favorites. I'd have to say this is a tough call, and go with 50/50.

 

[Snakeee]

Yeah it is a fun match up and I agree on that rating. Also, I like Zelda better alone in this one rather than using Sheik as well

 

[Tagxy]

If Zelda gets grabbed expect about 20-30% damage.

 

[Kataefi]

Nair disrupts quick attack. This can be used off stage as an effective edgeguard from Zelda, even if it is to rack up damage.

I think Zelda has a tiny tiny tiny advantage here - her aerials outrange pika's, so she can actually approach from the air for a change.

She will kill him ridiculously early. All her kill moves are effectively still in tact in this match, whereas pika's thunder, a good kill move, is essentially rendered useless by nayru's. That's not to say it will never hit, it's just that Nayru's > thunder.

Because of her range, she'll space herself well in that only the tipper of pika's FSmash can challenge her, and this won't do very much damage or knockback. USmash is fast but lacks range. If she is on top, she won't need to fear a pika preparing a usmash.

All pika has is rapid movement and the ability to mix it up with Tjolts. That's really it. She shuts him down in every other way, especially with the dtilt lock, which leads to Utilt for a clean 80% kill. But the very assets in this match that he possesses work wonders, which is why it brings it much closer to even.

I reckon it's 55:45.

If we look at it like this.

Zelda beats thunder
Zelda beats QAC with lingering hitboxes
Zelda cannot be effectively edgeguarded by pika whereas Zelda can nair his recovery for added damage
Zelda can dtilt lock > Utilt for the kill around 80%
Zelda's range means pika's FSmash can essentially only hit with its tipper, which isn't enough to finish her off.
Zelda can challenge his aerial game due to the severe lack of range on pika's aerial moveset.

On the other hand:

Pika has many many combos
Pika outcamps

I've never fought such amazing pika's such as yourself Mister E and Anther, but I've come across some good ones offline, and pika is forced to camp like crazy and bait her.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

and i would like to play you guys to test it. it has been months since i have played a zelda lol.

 

[GreyFox86]

and i would like to play you guys to test it. it has been months since i have played a zelda lol.

I would love to play you. However, I would only lose and kinda bring the ratings down for the possible 50/50 between the two.

 

[Kataefi]

Yeah sure! But are there any UK pika's at your boards? I'd fight them for no lag ^^

EDIT:: Grey you should fight! Even if you lose it won't bring down the matchup - the skill level may be different, plus it's wifi. If anything I reckon the worst it could go is 50:50

 

[M15t3R E]

I'd like to play some of you Zeldas too.
I've recently become MUCH better online, dramatically narrowing the gap between my online skill and offline skill.
Should prove to be an enlightening variety of matches if you Zeldas play Stealth or myself.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

there is one called boxingking . he is a very good pika in uk. the best i believe in uk.

 

[Kataefi]

That's amazing! I'll play him... but it'll have to do it tomorrow or later sometime because it's 6:40am over here. And I havn't had SLEEP!!!! >.>

But yeah let him know I'd like to play his pika or whatever, but be warned, if he's best in the UK and my Zelda's not best in the UK then the skill level from the players may be different, though I'd like to think I have a competent Zelda.

 

[GreyFox86]

I would like to play a Pika, but more or less I would like to play against another Zelda from here.

 

[Tagxy]

A note about QA. Its priority changes based on what part its at. If you catch it during the QA, itll go straight through and leave some minor damage to Zelda. It's been known to destroy samus' super missiles without making pika flinch. If you catch it in between the angle change, then you can disrupt it.

Also, timing is important with nyrus' love in one sense. The thunder lasts for awhile, so Ive had some zeldas reflect part of the thunder, and then have nyrus love end leading to a gimp. Basically, if you're going to try to anticipate the thunder, wait until the "Pikaaaa". A good pikachu wont stop thundering just because of nyrus, theyll just make sure to not be directly under it. And be careful about being too close to the ground. Space animals do this more, but theyll start to reflect only to be met with an nair.

Also, usmash more then any other move kills QAC. It can cover every angle: front, back, top, ground. Dont do anything else, just usmash.

 

[Villi]

I'm up for a lag fest. I don't have much to contribute to the discussion that hasn't been said.

Edit: I don't agree with the up smash spam idea. It might counter QAC when you know it's coming, but it has punishable lag if you miss. Nair and intelligent spacing > up smash IMO

 

[M15t3R E]

What Tagxy said above ^

Zelda beats thunder
Zelda beats QAC with lingering hitboxes
Zelda cannot be effectively edgeguarded by pika whereas Zelda can nair his recovery for added damage
Zelda can dtilt lock > Utilt for the kill around 80%
Zelda's range means pika's FSmash can essentially only hit with its tipper, which isn't enough to finish her off.
Zelda can challenge his aerial game due to the severe lack of range on pika's aerial moveset.

On the other hand:

Pika has many many combos
Pika outcamps

I've never fought such amazing pika's such as yourself Mister E and Anther, but I've come across some good ones offline, and pika is forced to camp like crazy and bait her.

I'd just like to say that, Kataefi, QAC can still rack up damage if used sparingly and Zelda is still susceptible to QAC-Thunder if she is launched into the air and still suffering from hitstun. Same goes for any character.
Pikachu can stay off-stage longer than Zelda and will have no trouble avoiding that nair off-stage. I can probably count on my hands the number of times I've even been hit by ANY attack while recovering.
The d-tilt lock can be DI'd out of easily and Pikachu's d-tilt has far more range than Zelda's.
Pikachu won't have to use his f-smash any differently than he ever does. It has always been a situational move, primarily used for high % move punishing.
Zelda's aerials have more range but are slower. Pikachu can still get in a u-tilt, and can easily get back onto the ground where he's safer.

 

[Tagxy]

I'm up for a lag fest. I don't have much to contribute to the discussion that hasn't been said.

Edit: I don't agree with the up smash spam idea. It might counter QAC when you know it's coming, but it has punishable lag if you miss. Nair and intelligent spacing > up smash IMO

I meant in regards to an oncoming QAC. You can usually tell.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I can try a pika match sometime today maybe. assuming lag isn't terrible and I'm not busy with other plans... actually, sunday might work better for me.

but I'm going to have to agree with kataefi's analyzation of the matchup. the difference is, I think that's a big enough advantage to say 60:40, and he thinks it's only 55:45.

 

[Anther]

I don't think pika's game is reliant on QAC, jolt, or thunder at all. hehe. Which changes a bit the perceptions of the matchup. From what I've played of Zelda, she's relatively hard to approach with pika.. but not . thaaat hard. I spend most of the match at mid range just scaring my opponent, joltless and whatnot. Then when zelda tries to get me out of the awkward range, run in and start pika's sexolicious punishment game, which zelda isn't the best at getting out of.
Her smashes are a huge problem for Pika's general approaches from above, but simply double jumping around her and baiting the moves are usually good enough for pika to break down those laggy response, but if it doesn't work, then pika dies because zelda's a strong independent woman.

I don't know who's QAC'ing around zelda though, I dunno if 1-2% highly punishable attacks can be considered racking up damage ... and jolts don't get you very far since zelda stands around like some sort of bishop missle tower and they really only mess up peeps that want to chase after you.
If pika utilts -> thunder, or dsmash sends someone straight up, there isn't enough time for a reflect move to come out, you need to airdodge and pray the pika isn't paying attention to your DI XD.

She has some pretty mean stuff she can whip out though, and kills pika fast, so 50/50 doesn't sound bad to me.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

If pika utilts -> thunder, or dsmash sends someone straight up, there isn't enough time for a reflect move to come out, you need to airdodge and pray the pika isn't paying attention to your DI XD.

She has some pretty mean stuff she can whip out though, and kills pika fast, so 50/50 doesn't sound bad to me.

wrong. as much as I hate the move and say "this is hardly an AT. People should really stop pretending like it has practical applications" Love jumping immediately out of a pika Dsamsh (assuming we didn't DI out or away) will reflect thunder in time all the time.

I've never been hit by a pika utilt so I can't say anything there, but I assume we can still do it. maybe we can't but why are we getting hit by utilt anyway? pika shouldn't be able to put himself in that position against us.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

Anther is completely right. at higher percents, over about 100, utilt and dsmash has enough hitstun that thunder will always hit. this works on reflectors and absorbers. utilt has more hitstun then dsmash, but both will garauntee a hit at higher damages. really though youshould be DI'ing the dsmash anyways so that wont be a problem. i can also play sunday hedgdawg. ill show you then. or right now if you are up for it.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Anther is completely right. at higher percents, over about 100, utilt and dsmash has enough hitstun that thunder will always hit. this works on reflectors and absorbers. utilt has more hitstun then dsmash, but both will garauntee a hit at higher damages. really though youshould be DI'ing the dsmash anyways so that wont be a problem. i can also play sunday hedgdawg. ill show you then. or right now if you are up for it.

Dsmash is easy rnough to DI I don't think it should be a problem. I'll accept utilt might be though... theough I don't know how easy it is to coonect with.

I can do it now. I think. no promises for lag. And I might have to stop if friends come in.

I haven't brawled in about a month though. so the first matches I might be a bit rusty.

if you have AIM that would be a great way to set it up.

 

[Anther]

Utilt's basically pika's safer dsmash alternative at close range. And even the best of Dsmash DI'ers just end up getting killed by it knockin them at unfortunate angles... it just happens. Especially if you just so happen to be air dodging and pikachu is below you downsmashing. Sometimes you die to thunders, tis life.

 

[Yuna]

I read through 4 pages of Zelda vs. D3 and did not see anyone mention her D-tilt combo on him even once. It's a guaranteed 12% or so - 80% combo that ends with a free tilt or Smash. How did not a single Zelda-player know about this?!

 

[Stealth Raptor]

so after playing hedgedawg through some occasionally heavy lag, the matchup seems very even, power vs speed. cant bring much else from it due to the lag though. if either character gets a gimp or low damage kill they are almost garaunteed the win. btw epic ITS OVER 9000 poost yuna xD

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

so after playing hedgedawg through some occasionally heavy lag, the matchup seems very even, power vs speed. cant bring much else from it due to the lag though. if either character gets a gimp or low damage kill they are almost garaunteed the win.

tis true. one zelda fair, bair or uar will destroy pikachu something awful.

and one botched recovery, or recovery into something nasty will do us in.

it's not a matchup that will respond to kindly to mistakes. LAg was pretty substantial so I won't make a sure ruling, but it definitely isn't worse than 60:40 either way... I just can't base anything better off the matchups we had with lag... kept runing my dtilt -> utilt combo

 

[Stealth Raptor]

my opinion is after those matches is that while we went around 50-50, i would call the matchup 55-45 in zeldas favor.

 

[Spyckie]

Anther, just add +30 to all of your matchups. This would be 80/20 for you, and 50/50 for the rest of us.

Seriously though, Anther has a point. Pika has a great defensive/counter game. If the opponent is in the air, you can practically run under the opponent, shield, and have the upper hand in most cases (Mk being the only pseudo exception). I can't imagine a zelda adequately defending against that. Of couse, I can't imagine a zelda jumping that much either...

btw QAC is purely for the combo videos. Seriously.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

my opinion is after those matches is that while we went around 50-50, i would call the matchup 55-45 in zeldas favor.

I'll say that's pretty accurate.

the matches we played had pikachu botching a few things overall still punishign fairly well though.

lag ***** zelda's ability to hit with fair, bair or uair... which sucks and screwed up my dtilt->uair combo, but allowed me to counter with DSmash more often than I could IRL.

overall the biggest problem was that I'd autobuffer things stupidly. I don't know if it was affecting stealth similarly.


I'd say no way pikachu has the advantage, but Zelda doesn't have a big advantage.

that means the matchup is somewhere from 50:50 to 60:40 Zelda. 55:45 would fit in that range, but I can't divine exactly what is accurate from those laggy matches

 

[Kataefi]

Can we agree to a slight tiny advantage on Zelda's part? 55:45?

 

[Villi]

Oh yay, another use for love jump besides OOS for Jiggz rollout.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Can we agree to a slight tiny advantage on Zelda's part? 55:45?

I think it's too early at this point to put it down for sure. but that ratio doesn't seem bad.

 

[Brinzy]

Sonic, while the Pikachu I play is just a friend who consistently loses to level 9s, I can safely say that utilt -> Thunder can come out fast enough to kill Zelda.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

lol yes it does. on sunday i am willing to play any other zelda that wants to test out the pika matchup.

 

[RoyalBlood]

I would but I'm wi-fi less atm ;_;

And, can't you control the direction you go when hit by the u-tilt? <--- QUESTION >:l

 

[M15t3R E]

I would but I'm wi-fi less atm ;_;

And, can't you control the direction you go when hit by the u-tilt? <--- QUESTION >:l

U-tilt is used in combos, often after fairs or grabs.
9.5 times out of 10 you won't see the u-tilt coming when a good Pikachu hits you with it.
Even when you do, you can't DI outside of the thunder's range once you're at the higher %'s. And this is true on all characters, anything but exclusive to Zelda.
I completely agree with Anther and would (again) call this match-up 50/50.

I have a tournament tomorrow so I can play some Zeldas here on Sunday night or Monday.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sonic, while the Pikachu I play is just a friend who consistently loses to level 9s, I can safely say that utilt -> Thunder can come out fast enough to kill Zelda.

yup. utilt does. Usmash.. not so much, but at high damages utilt is awful D:.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

you an di the utilt, but like mentioned it is hard to see coming. also the front and back of the utilt need to be DI'd different directions, further complicating things. so yeah it is very hard to DI it, even then we can still get you sometimes.

 

[Flamingo]

Hm 50/50 matchup? Wow. I always thought Pika had the slight advantage. Small, quick, projectile that NL can't account for all of. And a decent edge game. I would say 55/45 or even 60/40 due to the presence of being in the midst of both a very good Zelda and Pikachu player. And the Pikachu player wins fairly constantly to the best of my knowledge if that means anything to you guys.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

what are the names of these 2 players?

 

[Fieryblast]

This is one of those cases where reflecting projectiles isn't the best option... usually. Din's Fire happens to be useful for canceling out most other projectiles due to its high priority. If placement and timing are good, you should be able to hit the Pikachu AND cancel his projectile. If he is spamming them, one option is to teleport in to him, or in range for an attack, but that is punishable. Nayru's Love reflects thunder, and there usually is plenty of time to get one out due to Thunder's start lag. In short, Zelda has a means of handling whatever Pikachu can throw at her in terms of special moves in a general scenario.

The problem arises in close combat. Simply put, Pikachu is much faster than Zelda. His fsmash has comparable range to Zelda's fmash, and his dsmash (though it is possible to DI out of) is pretty brutal at times. While it is possible for Pikachu to perhaps overwhelm the Zelda user, it is also possible for the Zelda to effectively create a wall that is hard for the Pikachu user to penetrate-- the usual suspects, dtilt and the various things she can do after she catches someone in one, are what helps her with that.

Admittedly, I'm not as experienced against Pikachu, but in the matchups I've had, I never felt that Pikachu had any clear advantage. I'd say 50/50, neutral.

 

[Villi]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6095228#post6095228

@_@