Zelda+: OP In-Process of Overhaul as of 04-05-10

[JCaesar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMWGQHyzALo


LOL ZELDA.

What's "LOL" about that? There was nothing impressive about that, and it would never work against a human.

You wanna see LOL ZELDA? Watch the first 15 seconds of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7Ecv8Zse2A

 

[goodoldganon]

I ask that we refrain from posting in this topic. Knuxrogue has set up a wonderful Zelda topic and it is EXACTLY what we are looking for on this board. A knowledgeable database of Zelda tactics for new players and Zelda mains alike to discuss matchups and her metagame. I'd appreciate if we could move future Zelda discussion to this topic:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230316

Thanks guys. Hopefully now I can get a mod to lock this.

DON'T RESPOND TO ME​

 

[Kataefi]

Before this is locked:

The content of this thread, particularly the OP is very informative and it would be beneificial if this information is not lost (particularly the videos and combo listings).

I suggest Knuxrouge copies the information from the OP of this thread and includes this into his/her guide.

 

[goodoldganon]

Agreed, I will send him a PM to get in contact with Red-Baron to gather all relevant info in this thread.

 

[Sukai]

Ah.
I'll be sure to get in contact with as soon as I can hop on an actual computer.

 

[Almas]

I'll be closing this within a day unless anyone would prefer that this thread survive in place of the other one. I have to say, they're both great OPs compared to some of the others, but cramped situations call for conservative methods.

 

[Sukai]

I pmed Red Bandit and added his videos on my OP.

I'm waiting for a response from him.

 

[JCaesar]

I don't think any of those videos are 4.0. Not sure they're worth keeping, especially since Zelda's recent usmash nerf has changed her game a lot since then. In fact, that one little change invalidates a lot of the information here unfortunately.

 

[Bandit]

I agree with JCaesar. All the videos have their version code next to them, and they are out dated with the new 4.0 & 4.1. Her game and combos have completely changed. We are planning on getting more videos up (maybe as soon as this weekend), and I was going revamp the combo section.

I never asked this to be moved to this section, but if we are going to have only one Zelda thread, then I would suggest you get an actual Zelda player to man the thread. The guide that is up there is very flawed, and I have alerted both the creator and goodolganon about the mistakes. Also, I am posting all of them (16 different points in doing a quick read over) in the thread because there are many glaring mistakes and it gives very bad information to rely on.

I request you do not close my thread until you find a Zelda player to write up a guide, or I will volunteer to put a guide together with Kataefi and GreyFox86. Both of these players, as well as myself, have been playing regular Zelda for a long time and have been contributors to the Zelda boards for months. We are the people to create the guide as we have all played and continue to play Brawl+. I have switched to full-time brawl+, and I know a growing sentiment among Zelda players is to do the same or play B+ much more often.

 

[Sterowent]

i'm a fan of red_bandit myself, but, outside of biased, having a character thread not made by a knowledgeable main causes some bits of trouble or loss of focus, it seems.

but, really, the ones up right now are, on the majority, there as defaults. I love seeing those able to give truly reliable feedback doing so!

I guess i'm trying to say 'Kudos."

 

[GreyFox86]

I would put up a Zelda Guide for B+ but I don't play it enough to do so.

There are some stuff I know but I'm still experimenting with her in B+.

But as Red_Bandit said, it's better if himself, Kataefi, and/or myself start the guide.

No offense to the other B+ players who want to run Zelda, but we 3 know Zelda inside and out, so it makes sence that Zelda mains from Reg Brawl to start a guide on their own Character.

 

[Ochobobo]

NinjaLink put up a video of himself playing Zelda in B+ lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79fJ36FLPYE

 

[GreyFox86]

ABSOLUTE ****!!!!

That was really epic NL.

 

[Bandit]

Got a hold of the newest code set yesterday, and her Usmash has been nerfed back to a similar power that she had before the buff. She can no longer combo chain like she used to, but it still sets up aerial combos.

 

[GreyFox86]

When is 4.1 supposed to be out?

 

[Bandit]

The latest version is from the 23rd and it is a 4.1 beta.

 

[Sukai]

The latest version is from the 23rd and it is a 4.1 beta.

Noo... The latest version is from the 25th and it is a 4.1 beta.

 

[JCaesar]

Noo... The latest version is from the 25th and it is a 4.1 beta.

Noo... The latest version is from the 26th and it is a 4.1 beta.

This is fun.

 

[Bandit]

Noo... The latest version is from the 26th and it is a 4.1 beta.

This is fun.

Pwned.

Team R3D strikes again!

Anyway, thanks to JCaesar's clutch video capturing, Team R3D has more videos to release! Please check the videos section of the OP's to see the 4.1 beta in action.

 

[JCaesar]

You should take down all the old stuff. Zelda's gotten a lot of changes recently and the old stuff is all basically worthless.

 

[Bandit]

I will eventually. I figure I'll keep the last batch of videos in the "Older Archive" for the people who are still catching up to the most recent release. Once the next version comes up, I will be moving the 4.1's down and deleting off the 3.1.

If you guys have 4.1 videos of your Zelda or Sheik in action (I accept Sheik videos too) then post them or PM me with the links.

 

[IC3R]

Man, I wish I had a fricking capture card; this thread wouldn't be so full of Red Bandit vs. JCaesar...

 

[Bandit]

I wish there were some more opponents (AND WAY MORE ZELDAS!) but I have not been able to make the past few weekends. Plus, even if I did, it wouldn't be 4.1 most likely so whatever.

You know, there are several people who I have encountered that take other people's wii videos and capture them for them. You can simply ask around, and I am sure someone will do that for you. I really want to see some more Zeldas, but I have not had anyone step up with videos.

 

[IC3R]

I'd probably have to upload my vids in their BIN files, because I can't send them via Wi-fi. But...the only human opponents I have are my younger brothers, and only one of them is beast.

Oh well, something's better than nothing, I suppose...

 

[JCaesar]

If you can get some good replays, especially with some different matchups than the ones in this thread, send them to me and I'll upload them.

 

[Veril]

IMO, from what I've seen, Zelda+ is a HARD counter to Jiggs and might have an advantage on MK. She's extremely difficult for us to combo, doesn't rely on combo's to KO us (though a few work) and has a few moves we have next to no answer to.

Her LKs are hard to space vs. us but up-air is very effective. Her neutral-b and up-smash are extremely good here. Din's fire... not so much.

 

[JCaesar]

I can say from experience that Zelda counters Samus pretty well. She doesn't do so hot vs her alter-ego though

 

[Veril]

I can say from experience that Zelda counters Samus pretty well. She doesn't do so hot vs her alter-ego though

Her down-b totally evens the matchup out

 

[Bandit]

Her down-b totally evens the matchup out

Which is exactly why I am going to put Sheik videos up too. Zelda players should have the ability to switch to her alter ego if the match is going south (or just to mix it up). She can be good on her own, but why not use what the game gave us?

 

[IC3R]

Would you rather be ***** by: a princess or a ninja? o.o

 

[Kataefi]

Would you rather be ***** by: a princess or a ninja? o.o

LOL!

I have to say, looking at brawl+ zelda now, I honestly don't think she's half a character anymore.

I believe the changes have made her more competitive. It would be interesting to see if her and sheik split as separate characters.

Really nice videos bandit! I'm so out of date now that I can't contribute as much anymore.

 

[IC3R]

LOL!

I think that's the first time I've ever had a mod go "LOL" at something stupid I post

But yeah, JCaes...I'm going to try to get some Zelda matches recorded versus my younger brother. I'll upload them through Mediafire or something and send you the link.

Honestly, I don't know where my brother and I stand compared to the rest of the Smash Community

 

[JCaesar]

Cool. If it's not too late, use the 4-28 codeset (http://web.me.com/shane_mulligan/Brawl+_Nightly_Builds/Welcome.html). It's the latest one.

 

[Bandit]

LOL!

I have to say, looking at brawl+ zelda now, I honestly don't think she's half a character anymore.

I believe the changes have made her more competitive. It would be interesting to see if her and sheik split as separate characters.

Really nice videos bandit! I'm so out of date now that I can't contribute as much anymore.

I like both characters. Zelda is definitely more competitive, but she still works harder than Sheik does to combo people but kills easier. With the 4-26 code set changes to her (not 4-28... i haven't played that), her U-Smash is much different and doesn't kill until well after 120%. She has to rely on other ways to kill which I have found Dtilt to Utilt is back in play as a fantastic kill option.

 

[Andarel]

Bandit - Yeah, her usmash has gotten a big cut in killing power. Same as you, I've been using utilt more and more as a kill move and usmash as a combo move now that its kb is lowered again.

Ironically, I've been doing okay with chaining dthrow ftilt usmash uair. People don't seem to DI it right.

 

[JCaesar]

Zelda is unchanged in the latest codeset. These vids are still valid.

Hopefully there will be a quickswitch code soon that will make playing Zelda/Sheik more viable.

 

[IC3R]

Good GRIEF that's a whole lot of changes in the 4/28 set...

I need to find some time to actually do this stuff ~_~

 

[Bandit]

Changes to Zelda in B+​

1) F-Tilt sped up 1.2x - I will be giving the frame data for this soon about the difference, but it makes this move much more usable. One of the complaints of this move is that F-Smash was nearly as fast and usually safer. With the speed-up, it creates a noticeable difference between the two moves and allows for more strategic use. F-tilt combos really well into U-Smash at early percents which could potentially setup a string of moves, and it has kill power that should be utilized since it is a 1 hit move. My guess, at the moment, is that the move was 12 frames, so it would be around 9 frames now in Brawl+. I will double check this information and get other frame data up as I continue to post new sections to the guide.

2) U-Smash Nerf Less Knock Back for Final Hit - Her initial U-Smash was possibly one of the best moves in brawl+. It was a huge hit box that comboed into her most powerful move, LK. The biggest problem was it was very easily chained with several U-Smashes and killed early. Initially, the knock back was given a boost, so the move couldn't chain into itself, but the move was killing very early sometimes between 60-80% on characters. Now, the knock back has been reduced and the growth knock back has been reduced. This means it can still combo on medium to heavy characters or fast fallers, but it has lost a ton of kill power. Usually, I have found 120% is the minimum killing level for this move on a moderate ceiling. I find this rather unfortunate for a move that used to be such a staple part of both ends of Zelda's game. Just remember this combo: D-Tilt to U-Tilt. U-Tilt has always had more killing power than U-Smash, even in regular brawl, and it is now the best option when approach kill percentages.

3) Farore's Wind Sped Up 1.5x - This took a little getting used to, but what a weapon this has become. FW Cancelling can now be used rampantly to move Zelda around the stage quickly and create mind games that Zelda was lacking before. It helps her get back to the stage faster, but it has not impacted her recoveries too much. When Zelda is on the ledge, she struggles to create an offense and, at times, struggles to get back on the stage. The speed up allows her to FW past her opponent or create a wall of hit box that can be used while ledge warping (Drop Down > Jump > FW into Ledge > Grab Ledge > Repeat). If the opponent gets too close, it knocks them back but they won't make that mistake more than once. I have used this to mask when I am really getting back on the level and found much success with it. Hopefully, I will be able to incorporate more FW Cancelling to display the power this has at a higher level. NinjaLink is a huge proponent of this technique and the possibilities it raises for Zelda.

4) Fast Fall Rate Increased by 1.2x - She falls faster when we command her, and I see nothing but good things for this. Her recovery allows her to recover should a FF go bad, and she has problems defending against juggling. The masked benefit in the faster FF is the benefit gained by her spike. Zelda's D-Air is in the top 5 for most powerful spikes in the game. Last time I found a chart, she was ranked 4th behind both of Ganon's and Ness. FF D-Air is the most used setup for spikes when I am playing Zelda as it spaces her correctly and gives you a lot of control. Since you have to start the move a little earlier to allow for the sweet spot to happen, you can get the hit box out at a greater distance to protect her should the opponent try to ward off the attempt. Even if the sweet spot is missed, the downward knock back is sometimes enough to hurt poor recovery characters.

5) Short Hop decreased by 0.9x - She doesn't jump quite as high on her short hop, but it gives her a little quicker aerial game. With aerials auto-canceling, you can throw out a LK, FF, and auto-cancel into a D-Tilt for example. The point is that this speeds up her overall game, allows for more aerials to be used, and more actions performed by Zelda per match. Take advantage of the new physics and work strings of aerials and ground moves together to form a solid approach on your opponent.

This has been posted on the original page, but I have posted it here as well to allow for future considerations to the thread. Due to the potential of the first page becoming very large, I want to open the possibility of linking to the topics from the OP and have the links reference specific posts. This is the first of many sections of the Zelda+ Guide.

My next Guide Update will cover a former overused move that now is not being utilized for the tools that it now provides in Brawl+.

(Feel free to take a guess at it! If you guess it, I'll put your name in the title for the duration that the update is the most current.)

 

[Andarel]

Formerly overutilized? Either dtilt or nair, and of those the dtilt is more likely. Gonna go with that.

Her usmash is no longer a monstrous kill special, but I'm pretty sure it's still good for combos and the like with its new knockback. Just need to follow DI well, I believe.

 

[IC3R]

Din's Fire?


IMMA CHARGIN UP MAH PH1R3!!!