Zelda's Dtilt and Dair (updated)

[Angell]

NEW POLL GUYS!

The old post diddn't really summarize my idea as well as I thought, but @ otheusrex came up with some really great ideas down below. Here they are:

D-tlt and dair huh? Idk if I think they're bad, but I wouldn't say no to improving them either because I think Zelda is a little underpowered right now.

Dair I think is good, the sweetspot isn't all that demanding when you get used to it but as far as a tool it's not useful for a wide variety of things. She has more trouble than ever being juggled since she doesn't have diamond dive anymore so it'd be nice if her dair could also help fend people off from below too. Idk how I'd do that though, it wouldn't be all that weird if it had a sparkle disjoint since her kicks have that I guess. I'd probably just make it faster all around and buff the whiff hitboxes somewhat. I guess what would you want it to do better? That would help with knowing what to do with it.

Dtilt, I definitely wouldn't mind if it popped them up for combos sooner. the move is technically called trip, so it could possibly just make the opponent trip like bananas do, which would make it more about techchasing than comboing.

What do you think of these changes? I definitely LOVE the disjoint on Dair because it could help you spike people like Marth without getting hit.

Please begin all posts by casting your votes on these.

Dtilt
Agree- Angel
Agree/Neutral-
Neutral-
Disagree/Neutral-
Disagree-

Dair
Agree- Angel
Agree/Neutral-
Neutral-
Disagree/Neutral-
Disagree-

I'll keep a list of who thinks these moves need some touch ups and who thinks they are fine as they are.

Post your thoughts.

Things said:

D-tlt and dair huh? Idk if I think they're bad, but I wouldn't say no to improving them either because I think Zelda is a little underpowered right now.

Dair I think is good, the sweetspot isn't all that demanding when you get used to it but as far as a tool it's not useful for a wide variety of things. She has more trouble than ever being juggled since she doesn't have diamond dive anymore so it'd be nice if her dair could also help fend people off from below too. Idk how I'd do that though, it wouldn't be all that weird if it had a sparkle disjoint since her kicks have that I guess. I'd probably just make it faster all around and buff the whiff hitboxes somewhat. I guess what would you want it to do better? That would help with knowing what to do with it.

Dtilt, I definitely wouldn't mind if it popped them up for combos sooner. the move is technically called trip, so it could possibly just make the opponent trip like bananas do, which would make it more about techchasing than comboing.

This is kind of what I ment in my OP, she's underpowered right now and buffing her worst moves is the best way to put her back into high-mid tier.

(dair) this move isn't at all useless, it's just situational. Sweetspotted, it's easily one of the strongest meteors in the game. Even meteor canceled, most opponents who get hit with it offstage won't live, as previously stated. Also as previously stated, on a grounded opponent it kills really early off the top, and can be a combo starter at lower percents. Plus if you mix it up and land behind your opponent, a dair does a frightening amount of shield damage. Three break a full shield. Especially in doubles (say your partner is pressuring an opponent from the opposite side) shield breaks with this move are quite possible.
As for dtilt, it has about three times as many uses as dair. It's just that, like pretty much all her grounded attacks, it's really unsafe on shield which is irritating. That's really my main issue with her moveset. If her f-tilt maybe did less shield damage (it also does a lot) and had more shield stun, for instance, I'd be super happy. Cuz ftilt, downtilt, dash attack, and jab (except for/sometimes even at max range) are all awful on shield.

I don't think I have ever been punished for landing a dtilt unless it was crouch cancelled. I think the move is fine.

I think dair could use the sweetspot on more than ONE frame, but other than that I think its fine. Why exactly do you think the move should be changed? Precise sweetspots are kind of her thing.

true about the precise sweetspots thing, but a disjoint as mentioned in ortheusex's post would make it so she can spike people even if it is only1 frame.

Mix-up your throws and f-throw, d-throw, and u-throw can "trip up" the opponent too.

It's surprising how many people preemptively DI back throw and down throw and get put at the perfect angle with forward throw. Mixing up grabs is essential to making Zelda feel OP.

If you diddn't know this already, this is some essential stuff. ^

I think both moves are balanced and fun to use. Dair could come out faster but her other aerials are already really fast, and dair does a lot of shield damage. We can't rely on d-tilt for every combo/confirm anymore which is fine. Treat d-tilt like dash attack in regards to percent; always assume your opponent is crouch cancelling. Use downward angled f-tilt if you need to start combos.

This is also an excellent point about uses for ftilt, again essential stuff. You hit the nail on the head, up I feel like dtilt has kind of an identity crisis right now it's just so outclassed by ftilt right now.

 

[Downdraft]

i'll get to this quickly because I don't have a ton of time right now, but Zelda has two moves that are too situational.
Dtilt-before the pop up percent you can't combo with it you get punished for HITTING with it.
Dair-do I really need to explain why this sucks?

Agree-

Disagree-

I'll keep a list of who thinks these moves need some touch ups and who thinks they are fine as they are.

Post your thoughts.

I'm curious how long you've thought about this because it seems like a response thread.
I've expressed my opinion regarding d-air in response to the post that inspired this thread.
I'd be fine with d-tilt getting replaced or reworked. One thing to remember though is that d-tilt has two meteor hitboxes, which is something the opponent wouldn't expect. Most people seeing Zelda wait near an edge probably expect f-smash, d-smash, u-tilt, or a lightning kick, but d-tilt gives her the meteor any time and the "pop" for the kill at higher percents.

The petition should be split for both. I vote agree for d-tilt and neutral/disagree for d-air.

 

[Angell]

I'm curious how long you've thought about this because it seems like a response thread.
I've expressed my opinion regarding d-air in response to the post that inspired this thread.
I'd be fine with d-tilt getting replaced or reworked. One thing to remember though is that d-tilt has two meteor hitboxes, which is something the opponent wouldn't expect. Most people seeing Zelda wait near an edge probably expect f-smash, d-smash, u-tilt, or a lightning kick, but d-tilt gives her the meteor any time and the "pop" for the kill at higher percents.

The petition should be split for both. I vote agree for d-tilt and neutral/disagree for d-air.

Actually have been thinking about putting a formal petition against the two moves on the boards for a while now, I have kinda hated both of them ever since I started Zelda about a year ago. Our interaction in the other thread ad me want to poll the community and get a general consensus.

I think giving Zelda an upsidedown Rosalina up air (as a dair) or a stomp with the size of the hit-box about half the size or her up air would add to the character's options.

I will now proceed to split the two votings

 

[4tlas]

I don't think I have ever been punished for landing a dtilt unless it was crouch cancelled. I think the move is fine.

I think dair could use the sweetspot on more than ONE frame, but other than that I think its fine. Why exactly do you think the move should be changed? Precise sweetspots are kind of her thing.

 

[otheusrex]

D-tlt and dair huh? Idk if I think they're bad, but I wouldn't say no to improving them either because I think Zelda is a little underpowered right now.

Dair I think is good, the sweetspot isn't all that demanding when you get used to it but as far as a tool it's not useful for a wide variety of things. She has more trouble than ever being juggled since she doesn't have diamond dive anymore so it'd be nice if her dair could also help fend people off from below too. Idk how I'd do that though, it wouldn't be all that weird if it had a sparkle disjoint since her kicks have that I guess. I'd probably just make it faster all around and buff the whiff hitboxes somewhat. I guess what would you want it to do better? That would help with knowing what to do with it.

Dtilt, I definitely wouldn't mind if it popped them up for combos sooner. the move is technically called trip, so it could possibly just make the opponent trip like bananas do, which would make it more about techchasing than comboing.

 

[Angell]

1. I don't think I have ever been punished for landing a dtilt unless it was crouch cancelled. I think the move is fine.

2. I think dair could use the sweetspot on more than ONE frame, but other than that I think its fine. Why exactly do you think the move should be changed? Precise sweetspots are kind of her thing.

1. Have you tried debug yet? Some characters have a frame advantage over you without a cc until like 50ish
2. The problem with dair is it is way too situational and it wastes a spot where a much better move could be.

This thread was mainly made as a poll to see what everyone thought, so please put your positions for both moves down as well

 

[4tlas]

1. Have you tried debug yet? Some characters have a frame advantage over you without a cc until like 50ish
2. The problem with dair is it is way too situational and it wastes a spot where a much better move could be.

This thread was mainly made as a poll to see what everyone thought, so please put your positions for both moves down as well

I don't play the frame game. Everything I do only works because I'm outsmarting my opponent, not outspeeding them. So if I hit with dtilt, they aren't expecting it, and I wouldn't get punished even if they had a frame advantage. Maybe I need to play more M2Ks? Also, have you tried inputting their fastest move afterward and comparing it to Zelda's? Perhaps they can't even do anything with that frame advantage.

As for dair, I think having a situational move that makes her vulnerable when above opponents is good design. She already escapes all combos, now imagine if she could also stuff all followups. She already kills outright, launches opponents offstage early, and edgeguards like a beast with Dins, imagine if she had a reliable dair.

I think both moves are fine. Zelda is a weird character, and I think it is fine for her dtilt and dair to function differently from most characters'. Would I like them to be buffed? Sure! I don't think they need to be, though. I certainly don't think the design should change.

 

[Magus420]

On the lightest character (Jigglypuff), d-tilt is disadvantaged 1-2 frames on hit 0-7%, and is +4/combos into d-smash 25%+. On the heaviest (Bowser) it's disadvantaged 1-3 frames on hit 0-13%, and is +4/combos into d-smash 38%+.

 

[Downdraft]

On the lightest character (Jigglypuff), d-tilt is disadvantaged 1-2 frames on hit 0-7%, and is +4/combos into d-smash 25%+. On the heaviest (Bowser) it's disadvantaged 1-3 frames on hit 0-13%, and is +4/combos into d-smash 38%+.

So against the cast, it's a good move on hit beginning at lower-mid percents?

 

[WhiteCrow]

I think both moves are balanced and fun to use. Dair could come out faster but her other aerials are already really fast, and dair does a lot of shield damage. We can't rely on d-tilt for every combo/confirm anymore which is fine. Treat d-tilt like dash attack in regards to percent; always assume your opponent is crouch cancelling. Use downward angled f-tilt if you need to start combos.

 

[Downdraft]

I think both moves are balanced and fun to use. Dair could come out faster but her other aerials are already really fast, and dair does a lot of shield damage. We can't rely on d-tilt for every combo/confirm anymore which is fine. Treat d-tilt like dash attack in regards to percent; always assume your opponent is crouch cancelling. Use downward angled f-tilt if you need to start combos.

Mix-up your throws and f-throw, d-throw, and u-throw can "trip up" the opponent too.

 

[WhiteCrow]

Mix-up your throws and f-throw, d-throw, and u-throw can "trip up" the opponent too.

It's surprising how many people preemptively DI back throw and down throw and get put at the perfect angle with forward throw. Mixing up grabs is essential to making Zelda feel OP.

 

[BlackMamba]

It's surprising how many people preemptively DI back throw and down throw and get put at the perfect angle with forward throw. Mixing up grabs is essential to making Zelda feel OP.

My favorite thing is sitting at one edge of the stage with my back toward the blast zone at a percentage where i know a well DI-d back throw won't kill, then either F-throwing or u-throwing into a lightning kick or upair for an early stock haha

 

[Angell]

I don't play the frame game. Everything I do only works because I'm outsmarting my opponent, not outspeeding them. So if I hit with dtilt, they aren't expecting it, and I wouldn't get punished even if they had a frame advantage. Maybe I need to play more M2Ks? 1.Also, have you tried inputting their fastest move afterward and comparing it to Zelda's? Perhaps they can't even do anything with that frame advantage.

As for dair, I think having a situational move that makes her vulnerable when above opponents is good design. 2. She already escapes all combos, 3. now imagine if she could also stuff all followups. 4. She already kills outright, launches opponents offstage early, and edgeguards like a beast with Dins, imagine if she had a reliable dair.

I think both moves are fine. Zelda is a weird character, and I think it is fine for her dtilt and dair to function differently from most characters'. 5. Would I like them to be buffed? Sure! I don't think they need to be, though. I certainly don't think the design should change.

1. They can, they totally can. Also shield is 1 frame, so they can always shield.
2. Ummmmmm, no. There are definitely combos on her
3. She can pretty much do that already with a kick if someone's greedy.
4. What? Im imagining it, and there doesn't seem to be a problem.
5. Agree, they don't need buffs, but currently she sits toward the low end of most people's tier lists, so I think some buffs to her worst moves will do her some good.

On the lightest character (Jigglypuff), d-tilt is disadvantaged 1-2 frames on hit 0-7%, and is +4/combos into d-smash 25%+. On the heaviest (Bowser) it's disadvantaged 1-3 frames on hit 0-13%, and is +4/combos into d-smash 38%+.

I have been hitting people with the very top of dtilt, where dsmash doesn't reach, so I have to try something else that's my real issue I guess.

With regards to my other post, I guess they were crouch canceling, buts diddn't see them crouched so I assumed the weren't. My b.

 

[4tlas]

1. You were complaining about getting punished. Shielding is not a punish. I'm also confused how you insist they can do something here but when responding to Magus you say its not them its you.
2. Of course there are combos on her. When I say something to its most extreme, I am likely exaggerating, not stupid.
3. Not from beneath she can't. She already has no lateral weakspots due to lightning kick, doesnt she need one somewhere?
4. Yes, there is a problem. She would be ludicrously good. Nobody could approach her ever, further encouraging opponents to sit back and wait for Zelda. Every time an opponent hits Zelda into the air, Zelda becomes LESS vulnerable. That's not a problem?
5. I definitely think she is low tier, but not by enough to warrant design changes (I still miss 3.0 Dins though...). Someone is always going to be slightly below average with 41 characters and a ludicrous amount of matchups.

I probably sound a little hostile here, and to be honest I am probably being a little hostile subconsciously. The only other time I've ever debated with you was about uptilt and upsmash and I felt like I wasn't being listened to or respected, which is one of my biggest pet peeves. Also nondescript 1-line responses irk me. I don't have the time to go back and edit this post to be less douche-y right now, so I'd like to apologize if I come off as an ass here. That is not the intent, even if my emotions are playing that way. Im probably irritated at something else. Sorry!

 

[TimeSmash]

I don't play the frame game. Everything I do only works because I'm outsmarting my opponent, not outspeeding them. So if I hit with dtilt, they aren't expecting it, and I wouldn't get punished even if they had a frame advantage. Maybe I need to play more M2Ks? Also, have you tried inputting their fastest move afterward and comparing it to Zelda's? Perhaps they can't even do anything with that frame advantage.

As for dair, I think having a situational move that makes her vulnerable when above opponents is good design. She already escapes all combos, now imagine if she could also stuff all followups. She already kills outright, launches opponents offstage early, and edgeguards like a beast with Dins, imagine if she had a reliable dair.

I think both moves are fine. Zelda is a weird character, and I think it is fine for her dtilt and dair to function differently from most characters'. Would I like them to be buffed? Sure! I don't think they need to be, though. I certainly don't think the design should change.

So just a question. Do you think having the Dair sweetspot active for say, four or five frames to be "bad" design? I get that you don't really think it needs changing, but it would certainly make the move a little less niche

As for the topic in general, while a disjoint sounds nice I can't really stand behind that unless y'all had a more detailed explanation. It would provide Zelda a lot of protection which she has in spades already. When she's above the opponent, she should be in somewhat of a vulnerable position

 

[WhiteCrow]

So just a question. Do you think having the Dair sweetspot active for say, four or five frames to be "bad" design? I get that you don't really think it needs changing, but it would certainly make the move a little less niche

I could get behind that. It would make it easier to catch phantasms and other such side-specials. The move comes out on frame 14 for crying out loud, it could stand to have a little more utility.

 

[4tlas]

So just a question. Do you think having the Dair sweetspot active for say, four or five frames to be "bad" design? I get that you don't really think it needs changing, but it would certainly make the move a little less niche

As for the topic in general, while a disjoint sounds nice I can't really stand behind that unless y'all had a more detailed explanation. It would provide Zelda a lot of protection which she has in spades already. When she's above the opponent, she should be in somewhat of a vulnerable position

I think making it active for 3 frames like fair and bair would be appropriate. 1 frame is just ludicrously difficult to utilize, especially when opponent's hurtboxes are constantly moving. Even if the idea is to have a move solely usable in combos, that move should'nt be Zelda's dair, which either a) causes a techchase she can't follow up on or b) causes an offstage METEOR when Zelda was already in a favorable position to Lightning Kick someone faaaaaaar from the stage.

Hitting opponents should generally make them more vulnerable. Zelda is super floaty, mitigating this somewhat. Allowing her to also have a good dair would possibly make her even LESS vulnerable when hit. People already get stuffed by Lightning Kick when approaching for lateral followups, if they got stuffed for vertical followups too...oh god the salt.

 

[TimeSmash]

I think making it active for 3 frames like fair and bair would be appropriate. 1 frame is just ludicrously difficult to utilize, especially when opponent's hurtboxes are constantly moving. Even if the idea is to have a move solely usable in combos, that move should'nt be Zelda's dair, which either a) causes a techchase she can't follow up on or b) causes an offstage METEOR when Zelda was already in a favorable position to Lightning Kick someone faaaaaaar from the stage.

Hitting opponents should generally make them more vulnerable. Zelda is super floaty, mitigating this somewhat. Allowing her to also have a good dair would possibly make her even LESS vulnerable when hit. People already get stuffed by Lightning Kick when approaching for lateral followups, if they got stuffed for vertical followups too...oh god the salt.

I have to refute that while it is theoretically sound that in situations where you land a Dair you could land a LK it is not always the most practical move. For instance, on WarioWare, sometimes I will go for a Dair because it's actually easier to go in for than a LK, as vexing as that sounds. Or there are definitely situations where you want to go in for a mix-up, and because Dair is a potent meteor, it can be a good workaround in its own right. Elaborating on why I don't always go for LKs and opt for Dair (which is rare, but still) is because while possible the amount of technique for me to sweetspot them with an LK is too much for me, but I can hit with the sweetspot of Dair. Which framewise seems counterintuitive but angle/pathway/where I'm going wise it's much easier. If I sourspot the LK and then am below the ledge, the opponent could do some pretty nasty things given how close they would usually be, I might even end up below them if I really whiffed it. With Dair, since you're apporaching from above and they have meteor hitboxes, I feel safer because I can still get away.

Does that make sense? It's hard to word exactly.

 

[WhiteCrow]

I think making it active for 3 frames like fair and bair would be appropriate. 1 frame is just ludicrously difficult to utilize

People already get stuffed by Lightning Kick when approaching for lateral followups, if they got stuffed for vertical followups too...oh god the salt.

3 Frames is very reasonable when compared to the other kicks. Wish the heel spiked on one frame but we can't win em all.

Let the salt runith over. Marth, Falco, Ike, Charizard, and D3 can cover every direction and no one's complaining about them. I'd be fine with Zelda having some downward offense. Diamond Diving and Nayru's glide are cool and all but I'd rather have something more solid for her core moves.

 

[TimeSmash]

3 Frames is very reasonable when compared to the other kicks. Wish the heel spiked on one frame but we can't win em all.

Let the salt runith over. Marth, Falco, Ike, Charizard, and D3 can cover every direction and no one's complaining about them. I'd be fine with Zelda having some downward offense. Diamond Diving and Nayru's glide are cool and all but I'd rather have something more solid for her core moves.

In what world is a Falco coming at you with forward air hahaha. Although I do agree with you for some of them, characters like Marth have to go a little deeper when it comes to forward air kills (like Ken Comboing or forward air into down air) where as Zelda has a brunt hit which while hard to sweetspot has a lot of knockback. But then you have Ike, who actually has pretty good aerials. I mean I guess Fair is a little slow but the knockback on it is crazy. Don't really remember the others right now and can't put up too solid of an argument so I semi-agree with you. Haha

 

[4tlas]

I still think in all mid-combo scenarios a Lightning Kick will suffice.

The other characters you name can be combo'd, however. Their weakness lies elsewhere. I think Zelda has just the right number of weaknesses. Everyone else should be nerfed to her level =P

 

[WhiteCrow]

In what world is a Falco coming at you with forward air hahaha. Although I do agree with you for some of them, characters like Marth have to go a little deeper when it comes to forward air kills (like Ken Comboing or forward air into down air) where as Zelda has a brunt hit which while hard to sweetspot has a lot of knockback.

I think you misunderstood me. Falco doesn't need his fair to cover in front of him when he can nair or shine>turnaround bair or cover his hurtbox with dair or shine. In regards to Marth I'm not saying the listed characters can kill with all of their moves I'm saying they safely cover areas all around them. Dair hardly covers Zelda's flank, which is why she is combo kibble for Mewtwo and Marth. I'm happy with the dair we have now but we're just theory crafting so no harm in pointing out her current flaws. It is worth noting how much kill potential all of her moves have.

Momentary brain storm: What if he back air was less of a kill move and more of a combo move. Same speed and hit box but different knock scaling and angle. What if it popped people up and in a bit more but retained it's electric properties to keep people in hit stun longer? Extending up throw chains with low back airs would be pretty sweet, and it would make us less reliant on it as a kill move. Just a thought.

 

[TimeSmash]

I think you misunderstood me. Falco doesn't need his fair to cover in front of him when he can nair or shine>turnaround bair or cover his hurtbox with dair or shine. In regards to Marth I'm not saying the listed characters can kill with all of their moves I'm saying they safely cover areas all around them. Dair hardly covers Zelda's flank, which is why she is combo kibble for Mewtwo and Marth. I'm happy with the dair we have now but we're just theory crafting so no harm in pointing out her current flaws. It is worth noting how much kill potential all of her moves have.

Momentary brain storm: What if he back air was less of a kill move and more of a combo move. Same speed and hit box but different knock scaling and angle. What if it popped people up and in a bit more but retained it's electric properties to keep people in hit stun longer? Extending up throw chains with low back airs would be pretty sweet, and it would make us less reliant on it as a kill move. Just a thought.

Oh no, I hope you didn't think I was coming at you super aggro or anything. I was definitely looking at it how you said, in terms of kill moves not actual coverage (it's funny because all of Zelda's aerials are kill moves, well besides Nair, which is a lovely move in itself). And definitely no harm in pointing out her flaws, like I said before Dair is a niche move, hard from perfect. I'm okay with it now too but I'd love to see an extension on the sweetspot frames. You are justified in saying that those characters have adequate responses directionally, though. While Zelda does have good options laterally, and to an extent vertically [out of being hit let's say, Uair can be quite telegraphed and is a little laggy if you're just in the air], she lacks a reliable down cover. Which isn't great, but for the sake of balance and having her be somewhat approachable I get it. But that logic isn't the best when you compare it to Falco like you said haha.

As for the back air idea, it might be possible in the Tetraforce thread that I think otheusrex made. It could be interesting!!

 

[BlackMamba]

I'd be ecstatic if the sweetspot stayed out for three frames.

 

[Kaeldiar]

I think making it active for 3 frames like fair and bair would be appropriate. 1 frame is just ludicrously difficult to utilize, especially wh...

Just a little bit of fact-checking here

f-air and b-air are active for 4 frames, and the first frame does 1 more damage, which actually effects knockback by a noticeable amount

 

[Downdraft]

I'm caught up on the thread, and I don't recall anyone mentioning that meteor heel is occasionally good for catching an opponent's tech off of platforms to continue combos. I've seen Korean DJ do it. Also, if your timing is great, you can meteor heel tether recoveries before the opponent drops.

 

[Kaeldiar]

I'm caught up on the thread, and I don't recall anyone mentioning that meteor heel is occasionally good for catching an opponent's tech off of platforms to continue combos. I've seen Korean DJ do it. Also, if your timing is great, you can meteor heel tether recoveries before the opponent drops.

Full hop d-air will sweetspot on opponents on battlefield height platforms (BF, PS2, middle of Lylat). If you can get the read, that's a very good punish. I think it autocancels as well? I don't recall if you can waveland out of it, L-cancel, or auto-cancel

 

[TimeSmash]

I'm caught up on the thread, and I don't recall anyone mentioning that meteor heel is occasionally good for catching an opponent's tech off of platforms to continue combos. I've seen Korean DJ do it. Also, if your timing is great, you can meteor heel tether recoveries before the opponent drops.

True! Even if the sweespot doesn't hit it's really not a good situation for them. Obviously just angle yourself for the inevitable retether. People forget Ivy's can smack you against the stage and ZSS has (albeit weak) meteor properties

 

[WhiteCrow]

Full hop d-air will sweetspot on opponents on battlefield height platforms (BF, PS2, middle of Lylat). If you can get the read, that's a very good punish. I think it autocancels as well? I don't recall if you can waveland out of it, L-cancel, or auto-cancel

On Battlefield you'll want to l-cancel it for the best punish. It puts you on the platform and them in hit stun. If you are going for that option (rising dair through BF platform) you need to be really accurate with your sweet spot or all you'll get is a "jab" reset on tech chases or they'll crouch cancel it. Since the hit box is so low it's also good for shield poking, but I prefer rising dair on Warioware and Yoshi's Story. You can wave-land out of a short hopped dair which is really helpful for tech chasing with it.