Zelda's Worst Matchup

[-Maddox-]

What do you guys think it is?

 

[Downdraft]

What do you guys think it is?

You won't find a consensus. Marth might not be her worst matchup, but he's second only to Fox in popularity. No other character that's ranked Top 10 in usage is as difficult to defeat. Ask yourself what's more important the character that will give you the most trouble IF you encounter them or the character that will most frequently give you trouble?

Squirtle is underdeveloped, but I'd say that either Ike or him are Zelda's worst matchup, yet Marth is the most problematic matchup since he's popular and can stop Zelda from doing anything if he knows the matchup.

 

[ECHOnce]

You won't find a consensus. Marth might not be her worst matchup, but he's second only to Fox in popularity. No other character that's ranked Top 10 in usage is as difficult to defeat. Ask yourself what's more important the character that will give you the most trouble IF you encounter them or the character that will most frequently give you trouble?

Squirtle is underdeveloped, but I'd say that either Ike or him are Zelda's worst matchup, yet Marth is the most problematic matchup since he's popular and can stop Zelda from doing anything if he knows the matchup.

I've never heard of Ike being that difficult of an MU for Zelda, but thinking back...the last time I faced an Ike was 3.02. Never had trouble with them since I could stump most of their scary QD approaches with dins, but that's obviously changed. Did 3.5 dins kill the MU that badly, or was it always considered bad and I was just unaware?

imo hardest MU for Zelda is Squirtle, bar none. Squirtle falls into the category of characters that can both maintain pressure on Zelda and have good enough movement to safely escape punishes while doing so. Falcon and spacies fall into this group as well, but tbey're also fast fallers (good combo weight for Zelda), so if you can find an opening the MU can go both ways. Swordies are tough, but they're winnable if you play safe. M2 was considered her worst in 3.02, but I don't have much experience with good M2s so I can't vouch for how good/bad it is in 3.5 (after his nerfs). Same goes for Sonic, who I've heard used to wreck her in...2.6b? No clue on if the Sonic MU improved in 3.02, but iirc 3.5 nerfed his recovery hard, among other things.

EDIT: On another note, Downdraft is on point for prioritizing practice in preparation for the more common of her disadvantages MUs. However, this is PM we're talking about aha...you will see a lot of Marths, but you're much more likely to see a random spread of uncommonly used characters in the PM scene than in Melee/Brawl (idk about S4). I would still prepare for them in case you do run into them in bracket, even if it's just by familiarizing yourself with their kill setups, weaknesses, and looking up vids.

 

[4tlas]

I agree that Squirtle is worst. Fox is pretty bad. Falcon is bad. Bowser is gross. Link is ew. I would imagine Sonic is subpar. Kirby is annoying.

I play regularly with one of the best PM Marths (Sora), and I don't think its that bad. In Marth's favor, sure, but around the same level as Kirby. At the very least you're playing the same spacing game. Squirtle just hits you and never gets hit, Fox never plays with you, Bowser armors through everything, Link walls you out with projectiles, etc.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Squirtle, definitely. Marth, CF, and Kirby are also quite difficult. Bowser is easy, just press the purple button and you win

Link might also be one of her harder MUs, but I haven't gotten a chance to play against a Link since I got destroyed by one. I did some serious homework afterwards, but haven't run across another Link. I could beat 3.02 Link, but I think the 3.5 MU is actually harder

 

[4tlas]

Bowser is easy, just press the purple button and you win

He shouldn't let you. That's why you push downward on the control stick and press the red button simultaneously first. Then you can spam that purple button. =)


Edit: Btw, I also think Peach is a bad matchup. She can outcamp, outspace, and outpressure you. 3.02 Dins made this bearable (set a Din near you at float height) to the point of possibly being in Zelda's favor, but since you can't place Dins near you anymore its very difficult to fight a well played Peach. Most Peach mains feel the opposite way, however, so who really knows.

 

[TimeSmash]

He shouldn't let you. That's why you push downward on the control stick and press the red button simultaneously first. Then you can spam that purple button. =)


Edit: Btw, I also think Peach is a bad matchup. She can outcamp, outspace, and outpressure you. 3.02 Dins made this bearable (set a Din near you at float height) to the point of possibly being in Zelda's favor, but since you can't place Dins near you anymore its very difficult to fight a well played Peach. Most Peach mains feel the opposite way, however, so who really knows.

As a Zelda and Peach main, I'd say it's still more in Zelda's favor. While there is no longer three Din's to deal with, recall can be particularly annoying and Zelda has mostly decent aerials that can knock Peach right out of float. While Peach has the better projectile this time around, it can still be reflected or even caught. Since she's floaty she can die easier from things like Uair and Utilt, though is less susceptible to combos. Also while Peach has a more telegraphed recovery Zelda's is more unpredictable by nature and harder to edgeguard and also benefits from the Teleburn. She can further mess with Peach by setting a Din's at the edge--Peach can cover the ledge with interesting things like Dair or even a properly timed dropped or thrown down turnip, but both are harder to pull off due to Zelda's broad recovery options and the fact that Din's can just chill there versus a turnip which has to be timed. By placing a Din's at the edge, Peach usually has to recover high, which is not as bad for her as it is other characters due to the stalling abilites of her parasol, but it lets Zelda cover an option and allows for easier pursuit. It can even lead to a potentiall deadly Uair if you're so lucky, but because Peach can stay quite high it's less of a threat than it is to other characters. Still annoying though.

Lastly, Zelda can transform into Sheik, which is not fun for Peach. Haha

 

[Downdraft]

I've never heard of Ike being that difficult of an MU for Zelda, but thinking back...the last time I faced an Ike was 3.02. Never had trouble with them since I could stump most of their scary QD approaches with dins, but that's obviously changed. Did 3.5 dins kill the MU that badly, or was it always considered bad and I was just unaware?

imo hardest MU for Zelda is Squirtle, bar none. Squirtle falls into the category of characters that can both maintain pressure on Zelda and have good enough movement to safely escape punishes while doing so. Falcon and spacies fall into this group as well, but tbey're also fast fallers (good combo weight for Zelda), so if you can find an opening the MU can go both ways. Swordies are tough, but they're winnable if you play safe. M2 was considered her worst in 3.02, but I don't have much experience with good M2s so I can't vouch for how good/bad it is in 3.5 (after his nerfs). Same goes for Sonic, who I've heard used to wreck her in...2.6b? No clue on if the Sonic MU improved in 3.02, but iirc 3.5 nerfed his recovery hard, among other things.

EDIT: On another note, Downdraft is on point for prioritizing practice in preparation for the more common of her disadvantages MUs. However, this is PM we're talking about aha...you will see a lot of Marths, but you're much more likely to see a random spread of uncommonly used characters in the PM scene than in Melee/Brawl (idk about S4). I would still prepare for them in case you do run into them in bracket, even if it's just by familiarizing yourself with their kill setups, weaknesses, and looking up vids.

So far Squirtle is a consensus, but someone on the forums has disagreed. I'm not surprised.
Maybe you haven't heard of Ike being difficult because he's an uncommon matchup and few people have taken him places. How many relevant Ikes have Zelda defeated? I know Ally dominated Zhime in 3.02, and I haven't noticed any other match pairing a very good Ike against a very good Zelda. He's got disjoint and power. Recovering versus Ike can be tricky as well as getting back to the stage. It's a matchup I've personally struggled with and find more difficult than the rushdown characters or spacies. Most of the rushdown characters can be comboed pretty well along with the spacies. Forcing the mistakes that lead to Zelda's heavy damage combos or 0-deaths is the tough part, but at least the option exists to make the matchup more even. What can she do to make the Ike matchup more even?

Mewtwo isn't her worst. Zhime has beaten Frozen twice in convincing fashion recently.
Disregarding the opponents' possible matchup inexperience, I don't consider any unfavorable matchup that Oracle or Zhime have overcome in 3.5 high level play to be the worst.

Good last point.

 

[Vitriform]

Honestly, I think there are 5 main factors that contribute to Zelda's bad matchups. I think her worst matchups generally entail at least 3 of these traits, which I have listed below:

1) Large melee range (especially disjoints)
2) Projectiles
3) Good mobility (ground or aerial)
4) Small hurtboxes
5) Strong vertical kill options

@ 4tlas I don't feel like Bowser's that bad because he gets absolutely bodied if you get up close. Grab -> Usmash chains -> Kick = RIP in pepperonis Bowser. He also doesn't like being camped by Din's Fire very much. I'd argue that the matchup is in Zelda's favor if you play it correctly. He doesn't have projectiles or mobility, and his hurtbox is enormous, so only his long melee range and strong vertical kills are an issue. Almost all of his moves require huge commitment though, so he leaves huge punish windows.

I also don't think Captain Falcon is that a bad matchup for Zelda; it might be because I haven't run into any amazing Falcon players, but you can combo him just as hard as he combos you, and he's so incredibly easy to edgeguard (much more so than Fox, who actually has real recovery mixups). All you need is one opening to absolutely annihilate him. Sure, he's got the air wobbles and easy kill setups with Dthrow -> knee and stomp -> knee, but you have Usmash chains and a nasty edgeguarding toolkit that's more than capable of setting up easy gimps. IMO, the matchup is 50:50, or 55:45 in Falcon's favor at worst.

Squirtle's definitely the worst because his insane mobility, tiny hurtbox, vertical kill options in Waterfall and Dthrow, and armor all go a long way in making the matchup hell. Link is also pretty awful, especially if the Link plays really campy. Zelda's too slow to capitalize on a lot of openings that he leaves unless you're right up in his face. Zair stuffs pretty much all of your aerial approach options, and projectiles + sword stop all of your grounded ones. On top of all this, he's tough to properly edgeguard and he has good kill options on Zelda. I'm starting to think that your best option in this matchup is Down-B. Toon Link might be just as bad as Link, because he maintains the same annoying projectiles and disjoints, but adds speed and a small hurtbox to the mix. Thankfully, he dies much earlier than Link, has a much smaller melee range, and his Zair isn't nearly as dangerous.

Fox has amazing mobility, the best projectile in the game, and ridiculous vertical kill options, so he's also pretty rough. The only thing that stops this matchup from being unwinnable is the fact that he gets death touched by Zelda if he screws up. If the Fox plays perfectly, then it's very skewed in Fox's favor.

Marth/Zelda definitely favors Marth, but I'm starting to think it's not as bad as I initially thought, at least if you keep good spacing. It's rough, but Marth has a tough time killing you if you avoid tipper Fsmashes and Ken combos. Roy is a similar story to Marth; he's harder to edgeguard from onstage because of his obnoxious Up-B hitbox, but you can also space him out slightly better because his sweetspots are at the center of his sword rather than the tip. He has better mid-high (70%-130%) kill options than Marth, however, so you need to be careful.

Honorable mentions for bad matchups (these aren't as bad as the others I mentioned, IMO) include Sonic (this might just be me though), ROB, and Mewtwo.

 

[Downdraft]

Honestly, I think there are 5 main factors that contribute to Zelda's bad matchups. I think her worst matchups generally entail at least 3 of these traits, which I have listed below:

1) Large melee range (especially disjoints)
2) Projectiles
3) Good mobility (ground or aerial)
4) Small hurtboxes
5) Strong vertical kill options

@ 4tlas I don't feel like Bowser's that bad because he gets absolutely bodied if you get up close. Grab -> Usmash chains -> Kick = RIP in pepperonis Bowser. He also doesn't like being camped by Din's Fire very much. I'd argue that the matchup is in Zelda's favor if you play it correctly. He doesn't have projectiles or mobility, and his hurtbox is enormous, so only his long melee range and strong vertical kills are an issue. Almost all of his moves require huge commitment though, so he leaves huge punish windows.

I also don't think Captain Falcon is that a bad matchup for Zelda; it might be because I haven't run into any amazing Falcon players, but you can combo him just as hard as he combos you, and he's so incredibly easy to edgeguard (much more so than Fox, who actually has real recovery mixups). All you need is one opening to absolutely annihilate him. Sure, he's got the air wobbles and easy kill setups with Dthrow -> knee and stomp -> knee, but you have Usmash chains and a nasty edgeguarding toolkit that's more than capable of setting up easy gimps. IMO, the matchup is 50:50, or 55:45 in Falcon's favor at worst.

Squirtle's definitely the worst because his insane mobility, tiny hurtbox, vertical kill options in Waterfall and Dthrow, and armor all go a long way in making the matchup hell. Link is also pretty awful, especially if the Link plays really campy. Zelda's too slow to capitalize on a lot of openings that he leaves unless you're right up in his face. Zair stuffs pretty much all of your aerial approach options, and projectiles + sword stop all of your grounded ones. On top of all this, he's tough to properly edgeguard and he has good kill options on Zelda. I'm starting to think that your best option in this matchup is Down-B. Toon Link might be just as bad as Link, because he maintains the same annoying projectiles and disjoints, but adds speed and a small hurtbox to the mix. Thankfully, he dies much earlier than Link, has a much smaller melee range, and his Zair isn't nearly as dangerous.

Fox has amazing mobility, the best projectile in the game, and ridiculous vertical kill options, so he's also pretty rough. The only thing that stops this matchup from being unwinnable is the fact that he gets death touched by Zelda if he screws up. If the Fox plays perfectly, then it's very skewed in Fox's favor.

Marth/Zelda definitely favors Marth, but I'm starting to think it's not as bad as I initially thought, at least if you keep good spacing. It's rough, but Marth has a tough time killing you if you avoid tipper Fsmashes and Ken combos. Roy is a similar story to Marth; he's harder to edgeguard from onstage because of his obnoxious Up-B hitbox, but you can also space him out slightly better because his sweetspots are at the center of his sword rather than the tip. He has better mid-high (70%-130%) kill options than Marth, however, so you need to be careful.

Honorable mentions for bad matchups (these aren't as bad as the others I mentioned, IMO) include Sonic (this might just be me though), ROB, and Mewtwo.

I agree with your post completely. The tough thing about some of these matchups is not realizing the best option, e.g. DI or crouch cancelling, in the middle of a match. I feel like there's too much for most people to commit to memory, so one should just experiment with their first stock or two and hopefully figure out how to counter the opponent's approach options, setups, attacks, etc. For instance, how does one avoid the Ken combo? How do you DI Marth's d-throw/f-throw mixup? There are so many things you could learn just about him that don't help versus other characters, and I just don't see how players can commit it all to memory. Is it really just trial and error plus making adjustments away from your errors?

 

[Vitriform]

I agree with your post completely. The tough thing about some of these matchups is not realizing the best option, e.g. DI or crouch cancelling, in the middle of a match. I feel like there's too much for most people to commit to memory, so one should just experiment with their first stock or two and hopefully figure out how to counter the opponent's approach options, setups, attacks, etc. For instance, how does one avoid the Ken combo? How do you DI Marth's d-throw/f-throw mixup? There are so many things you could learn just about him that don't help versus other characters, and I just don't see how players can commit it all to memory. Is it really just trial and error plus making adjustments away from your errors?

Honestly, I think you are correct that matchup experience is almost entirely gained through trial and error/experimentation (unless somebody else can share their matchup knowledge and tell you what to do and how to do it). Of course, after you know what's causing you the most trouble, you can focus specifically on avoiding or mitigating those scenarios through concerted practice in the lab, preferably with a skilled training partner. By practicing, then applying what you have learned, you can attempt to glean further insight regarding the matchup, and then repeat the process. This is the essence of metagame development. Innovative players figure out what works and what doesn't, they report their findings to the community (or not, if they're greedy, although they're only hurting themselves in the long run by hoarding knowledge), and they continue to advance the metagame through collaboration with others. This process can take years. Even Melee's metagame isn't completely solved yet, and PM has hundreds more matchups to consider. On top of that, PM is still being updated. It will take a very long time for PM's metagame to fully evolve.

As such, you will inevitably need to memorize certain quirks as they pertain to each character. Your fundamentals and tech skill are your toolkit; they will carry between all matchups and apply to all situations. However, an intimate and thorough knowledge of matchups and the ability to adapt quickly to unfamiliar situations are the defining factors that separate the top PM players from those who are merely high level. Surely, learning all of your character's possible matchups is a daunting amount of information to commit to memory, but doing so will pay dividends down the line.

 

[ECHOnce]

Got a test soon so I haven't read through everything, but with all the opposition against Bowser being a bad MU...I'll leave my 2 cents here aha. Not sure if any of you have faced good Bowsers before, but I usually prefer to play further away and camp (if I'm in a friendly and not going Sheik lol). He has a ton of good tools/mixups against close-up pressure, so grabbing or anything else that's not a safe distance away is the last thing on my mind. >___>

• Up-B oos counters grabs and non-disjoints (forcing shields and disjoints to clang)
• Super armor counters weak shields, and disjoints until idk what %s (forcing grabs or normal shields)
  • Side-B Command Grab counters shields and has super armor iirc

So playing Bowser up-close just becomes a scary game of rock-paper-scissors. Further, while Bowser's moveset is fairly slow overall, that serves to screw with your timing for his deceivingly quick startup moves, like some of his aerials, up-b oos, and down-b --> aerial cancels. His down-b is perfect for killing floaties; if you're in mid-%s, if you get knocked up at all, it launches him at a fairly ideal height to clutch a free kill. Further, that takes advantage of one of Zelda's bigger weaknesses (getting juggled): she can no longer risk the option of setting Dins coming down, and has few ways to counter the approach (D-air sucks, Nayrus isn't safe, Tele-cancels can still be caught if he reads it and Down-Bs early enough).

Bowser is a big character, so it's easy to land LKs, among other things, but with all of the ^above^ I really just prefer to abuse his slow movement options and camp with Dins. Bowser is scary. I wouldn't go so far as saying it's one of her worst, but imo it's disadvantageous (unless you play campy lololol...this is coming from a semi-aggro Zelda. I ain't approachin' that crap).

 

[4tlas]

It is of course difficult to judge matchups in this game for several reasons, including:

Player skill (also changes gradually and day-to-day)
Matchup inexperience (changes gradually)
Small sample size (few opponents of that character)
Sparse cross-referencing (I don't have any other Zelda players around to confirm my findings against the same opponents)
Evolving metagame (new options discovered regularly)
Localized metagames (knowledge of player playstyles/patterns)
Varying rulesets (stagelists mostly)
Patches (old experience may be invalidated, and adjustment time is hard to calculate)

Most importantly, it is impossible to hold all but one of those things constant to slowly eliminate them from the equation. This unfortunately makes theorycrafting the only way to determine matchups (since any "data" is really theorycrafting anyway...)

So what I'm trying to say is we're never going to agree and there is no correct answer. Make your arguments!

 

[TimeSmash]

It is of course difficult to judge matchups in this game for several reasons, including:

Player skill (also changes gradually and day-to-day)
Matchup inexperience (changes gradually)
Small sample size (few opponents of that character)
Sparse cross-referencing (I don't have any other Zelda players around to confirm my findings against the same opponents)
Evolving metagame (new options discovered regularly)
Localized metagames (knowledge of player playstyles/patterns)
Varying rulesets (stagelists mostly)
Patches (old experience may be invalidated, and adjustment time is hard to calculate)

Most importantly, it is impossible to hold all but one of those things constant to slowly eliminate them from the equation. This unfortunately makes theorycrafting the only way to determine matchups (since any "data" is really theorycrafting anyway...)

So what I'm trying to say is we're never going to agree and there is no correct answer. Make your arguments!

These are all several important variables to address when it comes to matchups and how you play. While some of them can be alleviated by constantly playing someone who mains that characters, it's a patch solution because while that person may be good, they might not mix up their style. And they might not even be good, which habituates you into expecting certain moves or spacing that in reality is incorrect, so you're learning how to play the MU somewhat, but not in the optimal way. Any practice is good practice, since you have the opportunity to practice basic crap like L-cancelling and spacing and try new stuff out. It's a bit of a mixed bag, but playing people--preferably in person--can help alleviate a lot of the issues you've raised, though not necessarily all.

The need for a standardized ruleset across the country is pretty prominent, and easy enough to apply if referencing a big tournament like APEX or EVO. However, if I recall correctly, their stagelists might be slightly different, so picking which tournament to use as a model can cause a bit of a stir. It also discourages trying out other stages whose legality might be allowed for the regular game, or at least as a counter or in doubles.

The evolving metagame and Patches are problems that will eventually solved, the latter most likely before the former. It's hard because we're still in this burgeoning phase of the game, and things and even whole characters *cough* *cough* can and are changed at will. There's still three or five characters (I forget how many) that will be added, with new stages or modifications to old stages that will most likely fall into the legality issue described before. So basically, there's MUs and stage-counters or choices that can influence how well a character does that don't even exist yet. Since the highly-sought-after yet ever elusive "gold" version of PM hasn't been released, everything is still susceptible to change, though it seems a solid framework has been laid down for the most part. It's like roughly half characters are somewhat steady in movesets and properties, with minor fluctuations mostly being addressed, though that can't be said for ZSS or Zelda, or even Lucas. There are some moves that have had more than minor changes in the switch from 3.02 to 3.5 as well.

Because this is the community's game or at least much more of ours than any other Smash game, we have the ability to address concerns and complaints. Which works for and against us--you see people on any of these boards that are agreeable and open to change and voice an argument of which there's foundation for and not built on pillars of salt. Then you have the ravenous people who complain about aspects of the game, and while their concerns are sometimes valid the way their arguments are presented are just overzealous. I wouldn't say this community is divided in itself, but I also wouldn't say it's the best ever. I think a growing community could help even more to help solve the problems you listed--in these boards alone there are several people of note who helped push along the character metagame, and many more who have contributed to their respective characters and the game as a whole.

So we have problems that are temporal in nature and somewhat exacerbated by negativities of the community (although I would say I've run into far more positive experiences than negatives). I know this is kind of an off-tangent post, but I think it adequately goes into detail about a lot of the issues you raised and how this game stands as a whole. Damn I type too much