ZSS 2.6 feedback thread!

[Supermodel From Paris]

Hello, this is my attempt at some constructive suggestions and criticism for ZSS in 2.6. I'm a long-time Smash player and ZSS main in Brawl and probably in Project M. Should say to Yeroc before I begin that even if this gets a little ranty, I think you've done an excellent job. Here we go!

• I still think an opportunity has been missed with ZSS' forward tilt. It isn't very useful for ZSS in Project M (or in Brawl for that matter). It has less range than dtilt, is 1 frame slower (AFAIK) and has less follow-up potential. Not every move needs to be useful, but ftilt is egregiously bad, as it's almost identical to another move ZSS has, but worse. Maybe the animation could be changed to something slower that kills (a-la Wario's vbrawl ftilt).
• ZSS I think still lacks kill potential. She has only one true kill move in fsmash and a whole suite of moves that can potentially kill if used correctly, but lacks flexibility in this area, I think. She lost a lot of her Brawl-esque gimp power in Project M due to the down-b and footstool changes (understandably so) and also lost uair and side-b as kill moves, so I think it's appropriate for her to get a slight buff in this area. Hand-wavey suggestion: better kb scaling for usmash. I understand that ZSS needs weaknesses and I know you're likely hesitant to buff this (since it was a common complaint and you haven't done it yet) but Melee is a game with overpowered characters that kill super early. Compare ZSS to Falcon, Fox, etc. and it isn't even a contest.
• Dash attack knockback increase is appreciated, but the angle is.... weird. At higher percents it becomes a bad idea to even use it I think, there are no follow-up options and it doesn't kill.
• Thank you so, so much for the improvements to down-b! Excellent stuff there.
• F-throw lacks a niche. I'm not sure it even matters, but uthrow and dthrow are now so good that I don't really even want to use fthrow anymore!
• Some of her aerial hitboxes are a little iffy... fair has a little trouble linking in Project M (even more than it did in Brawl, perhaps because of the mechanical differences) and dair is tough to land. Is this intentional? Should I just learn to live with that?

Think that about covers it. Thanks for all your hard work.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Angled Down F-tilt IS a kill move.

 

[ph00tbag]

I've always thought downward-angled ftilt as a KO move was silly. It's cool as a ledge poke as it is (certainly better than dtilt for the purpose); it doesn't need silly knockback and increased start-up "for balance." I think making have a slightly lower angle overall, and making upward angle, rather than downward angle, have the increased KB would actually be better, since it would incentivize its use as an anti-air.

Flip Jump still needs a command grab follow-up. :\ (I know, I know. It's impossible. But it will forever be the thing I dislike about the move.)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I've always thought downward-angled ftilt as a KO move was silly. It's cool as a ledge poke as it is (certainly better than dtilt for the purpose); it doesn't need silly knockback and increased start-up "for balance." I think making have a slightly lower angle overall, and making upward angle, rather than downward angle, have the increased KB would actually be better, since it would incentivize its use as an anti-air.

Low-angled ftilt, is it even that good at killing? I know the KO power was increased in PM, but it still seems to kill pretty late. This seems to be a pretty common theme with PM ZSS... she has a lot of moves that kill eventually or situationally but few high-power kill moves or setups that just end stocks. I'm not saying she needs Fox's up-smash, but it feels almost impossible to get rid of heavier characters like DK, especially on stages with "larger" boundaries.

Flip Jump still needs a command grab follow-up. :\ (I know, I know. It's impossible. But it will forever be the thing I dislike about the move.)

I like the current flip jump iteration... it's like a demon flip. But I feel it's missing something. Actually, between you and me, I find myself missing her old vbrawl dair occasionally, like wishing I could use it like Sheik uses her dair in Melee. I toyed with the idea of suggesting reversing them again and putting the "headstomp" on down-b (since it's rare that you'd be in a good position to l-cancel that move anyway).

Again though, I do feel something is missing from ZSS' "demon flip." In street fighter, the demon flip moves are almost indistinguishable (visually) from a normal jump and have several follow-ups, usually a dive kick, sweep, or command grab. Gouken in SF4 has a "fake" focus armor dive for baiting anti-airs that guards against stuff like Ryu's crouching HP. What could be cool is if tapping A gives you the dive, but tapping B gives you a dive that does no damage but has no lag and light armor instead (think yoshi's second jump) which might allow you to bait anti airs or bait people trying to hit you out of your flip jump.

 

[Perfecthell4]

I don't fully agree with a lack of kill power. Getting a Dsmash read means death for an opponent at scarily early percents, and it's even possible to do that with a good Fsmash read. Moreover, tipped Bair is very, very powerful and can be very easily landed off a side B as well as Dair, depending on opponent's weight/fall speed and percent of course. A slight buff in this area, possibly through Ftilt, would be nice but it doesn't need to be a big difference imo. A vertical killer would be nice though, i would bring back Uair scaling but otherwise i'd be ok with Usmash scaling. Again not huge buffs but some kind of shift here.

Fair usually connects for me (?)

I agree about the Fthrow and Ftilt lacking their niche

My own problems with ZSS that really irk me;
- Uncharged Neutral B has virtually no hitstun. It's really annoying to run cancel your Nspecial, be traveling right behind it, have it hit the opponent and NOT be able to combo Nair off it, instead getting shielded or something. A small buff to the hitstun would suffice.
- Up B and Side B can't be used after down B for a really absurd amount of time. Without a midair jump to compliment it, Down B is useless in recovery. This forces me to use my Dspecial early in recovery and then jump->up B following it, which takes out the mixup potential the Dspecial should definitely have against edgeguards

 

[Nausicaa]

F-tilt is one of my favorite moves with her...
I get most of my kills with Dive Kick...
Don't use Blaster often, or at all if possible. I've been suggesting people avoid that from the beginning, and will continue to do so. There are better things you can be doing with her at almost all (or all) times. The only time I use it is to throw some dynamics into the game to mess with people, or when there's absolutely no better thing I could do and I'm stuck in a position (somehow). In both cases, I don't think I'll ever expect something to come from it that benefits me, so it's bonus if it does make magic happen. Otherwise, it's just a tool to play with and fill out the flexibility of the character.
It's not bad, but there's no way it's going to be a core part of BnB ZZS play in the long run.

 

[SpiderMad]

It's not bad, but there's no way it's going to be a core part of BnB ZZS play in the long run.

But it's still a projectile with a dash cancel, without it you're now a projectile-less character

Dash cancel doesn't offer itself much to potential unlike AD cancels, where they can be used to AGT and such. She I think can immediately turn the dash into a dash attack, dashing Up-smash (Hyphen smash), or a dash dance to retreat; as her possible "fastest" or benefited options or whatever since you have to dash.

 

[Nausicaa]

But it's still a horrible projectile even with dash cancel, without it you're now a character using good tools

fixed?
lol partial (but not really) jkz

When a way to get OUT of using a move is the BEST part about a move, you know it isn't the best move.
You know what's a good move from most 'Blaster-Shooting' positions?
Dashing.
That's a good move.


Otherwise, yeah, I know what you mean. It has its moments, hence it isn't 'bad', but really, I'll only ever use it in those weird spots mid combo, resets, or straight up for fun/experimenting with the opponent. Never in BnB neutral game play.

 

[SpiderMad]

Nah, it's a good projectile

Also adding to my last post going from air shot you can straight f-smash cancel the dash either direction, but it won't work from cancelling a grounded one for some reason

 

[ph00tbag]

You're thinking too much about what your opponent can do to punish paralyzer if they read it perfectly, and not enough about what it prevents them from doing if they're not explicitly trying to punish paralyzer.

 

[Nausicaa]

I'd rather just DD... into pivot tilts and grabs.
They can't stop it! It's too good!

 

[SpiderMad]

That's it bro, I'm all Laser now

 

[\Apples]

I know nobody has seen Vidjo's ZSS, but having played it on almost a daily basis causes me to disagree with almost the entire OP. Yes, Ftilt is her most useless move but it's fine. If anything, Utilt is too good. She doesn't need invincibility frames on her DownB and she certainly has no problems killing. He lands solid Fsmashes, Dsmashes, bairs and fairs on opponents very often, and DownB's dive kick and footstools are excellent for offstage kills. It's not that she has a problem killing, I think most players have problems fully utilizing a character's toolset.

 

[zigheart]

well I've been lurking for a long time and thought i'd throw my 2 cents in. ZSS is my main. I've played just about every version of her for brawl (P:M, vB, B-/+). her killing potential isn't in her strength but her speed and combo's she's always been really fast to rack up damage then a finisher like side B or forward air. she holds a very diverse playstyle that can adapt to many different scenarios. i love the down B for P:M good for evasive and approach maneuvers. also those that say fTilt is useless try using it followed by side b to pull the opponent back then, up A, up B (send them back to the ground) down A, side A. its one of my most used combo's actually. the way her whips work is great for combo's and control.

 

[ph00tbag]

i love the down B for P:M good for evasive and approach maneuvers. also those that say fTilt is useless try using it followed by side b to pull the opponent back then, up A, up B (send them back to the ground) down A, side A.

I'm going to start using this combo now. Good find.

 

[SpiderMad]

The way my control stick is I can only get max horizontal distance with down-b to the left, to the right it's hard since my stick has slight play already in that direction

 

[skstylez]

I don't have toooo much ZSS experience, but killing hasn't been an issue once i got the hang of things. Never knew about the f-tilt thing, haven't needed it.
The F-smash has insanely long range, great for people/characters that overshoot the ledge. It even has a safety hitbox behind her. She also gets a gaurenteed semi-charged F-smash after downsmashing. This move is already powerful, so yeah.
Other than that, b-airs and surprise f-airs

 

[SpiderMad]

I need video of your supposed f tilt usage. That thing sucks

Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk 4

 

[SpiderMad]

I need video of your supposed f tilt usage zig. That thing sucks

Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk 4

Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk 4

 

[Oro?!]

So because I am interested in these things...

If you could buff one thing about ZSS what would it be

If you could change one thing about ZSS what would it be

What sort of playstyle do you think best utilizes ZSS' current form

What sort of direction would you like to see ZSS be taken in the future

I would appreciate it if everyone answered.

 

[Bryonato]

Buff one: Make her dash-grab at little less God-awful. That little leap she does is terrible.

Change one: Blaster charge. Seems like it's either full charge or no charge. No in between. This sounds silly but I really like ZSS as-is tbh.

Best playstyle: Rushdown/vortex. ZSS rewards precise spacing and her punish game is off the wall.

Direction: The current one is just fine. I love her design. She just makes sense to me in 2.6. Really flows.

 

[zigheart]

I need video of your supposed f tilt usage. That thing sucks

Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk 4

i don't have a camera and my comp is no where near strong enough to use dolphin.. if possible can someone else demonstrate it? ftilt also has fair growth so at around 50% it makes a decent gtfo move as well. definitely not a kill move, more a quick utility move for distancing your opponent.i 'm just happy most my original ZSS combo's still work, tho fair is a bit finicky at times, its a bit harder to hit with the second kick then it was in vbrawl. the changes to down throw kinda messed up many of my combo's wich relied on the slight forward trajectory it had.

hmm maybe i can make a replay and upload it for someone to make a vid for?

 

[SpiderMad]

i don't have a camera
hmm maybe i can make a replay and upload it for someone to make a vid for?

You don't own a phone with a camera feature? If you use the wifi version (which has the light press AKA better and more comfortable air dodge) then replays will work and you could send them to a lot of different people, hell even to people who could just camera it

 

[vidjogamer]

Her ftilt is useless. It definitely needs changed.

Her upsmash I think is fine. It shouldnt kill. It covers a lot of area and should be used as such.

I do agree that she needs a second kill option next to fsmash.

I also think that her nair would be nice if it didnt lose to so many other aerials.

The down B definitely needs invincibility. Another option out of it would be nice. It is kinda boring knowing that the player only has one thing they can do out of it.

Her charged shot is worse than the normal shot. It needs some kind of buff to become viable. Instead of stun maybe like a shine knockback and more damage? The normal shot does 4. At least double would be necessary to make it better than the uncharged shot.

Her dash grab is also completely worthless.

Also, how does everyone feel about her dash attack?

Idk, its late, just some unorganized random thoughts for you.

Edit: And her flipstool hitbox very often doesnt hit the opponent even though she ends up flipping. This really needs fixed. Its a terrible problem with the character.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

So because I am interested in these things...

If you could buff one thing about ZSS what would it be

If you could change one thing about ZSS what would it be

What sort of playstyle do you think best utilizes ZSS' current form

What sort of direction would you like to see ZSS be taken in the future

I would appreciate it if everyone answered.

One thing to buff - Nair. Make it a solid move rather than a ****ty projectile. If not that, then jump speed. I would love to be in the air faster more than anything else I can think of past that ****ty nair interaction.

One thing to change - Make it possible to grab the ledge with her tether from below the stage. Since I think that's impossible, my back-up choice is change Paralyzer to be more interesting and less meh. Let it cancel into downB in air or hold a charge or something.

ZSS's playstyle? - Zoning. She's a character who is going to adapt to what her opponent can't deal with because she can do a little of everything, but her giant walls of hitbox and above average speed make zoning her forte.

Direction for the character - Nowhere. She needs to go nowhere. She's doing the things she needs to be doing to be an interesting and fun character to play as and against. What she needs are mostly only balance tweaks to numbers and knockbacks that help her do what she does a little better.

 

[dodgepong]

One thing to buff - Nair. Make it a solid move rather than a ****ty projectile.

wat? Her nair is awesome, and it isn't a projectile...

One thing to change - Make it possible to grab the ledge with her tether from below the stage.

She already does this with up-b...I'm very confused

 

[Oro?!]

Just a couple things to clarify.

All of ZSS' whip attacks are considered articles. This makes all of them clankable and lose to hitboxes. Nair is the only aerial in the game that can clank.

As for ZSS blaster. Raising the damage or knockback on charged shot would increase paralyze time. Those two factors are how stun is calculated on uncharged shot and DSmash as well.

ZSS jumpsquat is frame 4, which is 1 frame slower than the fastest jump squats in the game. (Fox, Pikachu, Sheik, etc...)

Oh yeah and keep it up, thanks for the input guys.

 

[SpiderMad]

Yeah don't change her jump squat

Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk 4

 

[ph00tbag]

And for the record, taking out nair's clankability removes another unique quality that emerges from it being an article: it never stales, so it is ten percent guaranteed no matter how much you use it. So those strings for three or four nairs? 30-40% percent every time.

The odd priority does mean you have to be careful about when you use the move. It's at it's best when covered by a paralyzer, giving you more timing/space control, or when used as combo filler. If you're trying to trade or win a priority battle, though, just don't use it. Uair and dtilt are better moves for winning the neutral game anyway.

Her ftilt is useless. It definitely needs changed.

Agreed. It needs a bit of a range buff, and the upward angled one should be the strongest so it can be used as a more offensive anti-air, and have a good payoff.

Her upsmash I think is fine. It shouldnt kill. It covers a lot of area and should be used as such.

Also agreed. It's very good for scoring platform shield pushes.

I do agree that she needs a second kill option next to fsmash.

Dsmash, dair, fair, flipkick. It's been said before, but she's fine with killing.

The down B definitely needs invincibility. Another option out of it would be nice. It is kinda boring knowing that the player only has one thing they can do out of it.

I definitely agree here. I'm waiting for the PMBR to figure out some kind of voodoo that will let them give her a command grab out of flip jump.

Her dash grab is also completely worthless.

Not really a problem if you think that since she still has plenty of other solid options out of dash.

Also, how does everyone feel about her dash attack?

All it needs is a higher angle.

 

[HyperrCrow]

So because I am interested in these things...

If you could buff one thing about ZSS what would it be

If you could change one thing about ZSS what would it be

What sort of playstyle do you think best utilizes ZSS' current form

What sort of direction would you like to see ZSS be taken in the future

I would appreciate it if everyone answered.

My only change would be to buff her dash attack, give it a better angle for more options. Aside from that I love ZSS the way she is currently, her ftilt isn't really a problem, I personally use it for edge poking unexpectedly instead of dsmash at times. Start using sweetspotted bairs guys, it's beautiful.

 

[vidjogamer]

My only change would be to buff her dash attack, give it a better angle for more options. Aside from that I love ZSS the way she is currently, her ftilt isn't really a problem, I personally use it for edge poking unexpectedly instead of dsmash at times. Start using sweetspotted bairs guys, it's beautiful.

Just so you know, ftilting instead of a dsmash for edge poke is never a good decision. The dsmash has more range AND adds damage. If you really wanted to ftilt, dsmash them, THEN ftilt them.

 

[ph00tbag]

Just so you know, ftilting instead of a dsmash for edge poke is never a good decision. The dsmash has more range AND adds damage. If you really wanted to ftilt, dsmash them, THEN ftilt them.

The only time I'd recommend the ftilt is if you don't have enough time for the dsmash.

 

[HyperrCrow]

Just so you know, ftilting instead of a dsmash for edge poke is never a good decision. The dsmash has more range AND adds damage. If you really wanted to ftilt, dsmash them, THEN ftilt them.

The only time I'd recommend the ftilt is if you don't have enough time for the dsmash.

ph00t said it for me, I should of been more clear. I really only use ftilt when I trade hits and we go in opposite directions. It usually takes a while to get to the other side and I only have the time to ftilt.

 

[vidjogamer]

Yeah, IMO the only thing better about ftilt is the speed. But when do you need speed when you're edge poking? Usually you have time to dsmash when edge poking. Ftilt becomes more useful than dsmash more on the stage. That said, I'm still not really a fan of the move. Its still pretty bad. Does anyone have frame data on it?

 

[ph00tbag]

Usually, as an edge poke, it's only necessary after a trade. But that's a very specific and limited utility.

Otherwise, yeah, the move's pretty bad. Longer cooldown than dtilt, and less range. I personally don't use it much.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

Just throw out f-smashes. That **** has deceiving rang haha.

 

[ph00tbag]

I do have to say.

I get a lot of KOs from fsmashes that I probably actually maybe didn't really mean to do? Technically?

But I don't usually mention it.

 

[Bryonato]

I can definitely admit to this as well

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

Yeah. It also covers behind her so it's pretty damn safe even with the end lag.

 

[SpiderMad]

Opening Zss's Moveset (.pac) in Bbox immediately crashes it.. =(?