ZSS 3.0 Changes Discussion

[Daftatt]

- Downsmash's knockback tweaked to always stun a grounded opponent
- Neutral Air's whip is now unclankable
- Forward Air's second hit trajectory lowered
- Back Air sweetspot is easier to land
- Neutral B's fully charged Blaster shot is now unclankable
- Up B's whip is now unclankable
- Down B no longer has invincibility
- Reinstated transform during Final Smash

First off, the DSmash change, I'm sure in prior versions you have tried to D-smash people but they just end moving backwards as their character models vibrate vigorously, usually when you paralyzer while they are lying on the ground. Does anyone know if this still happens?

Loving the slight priority and hitbox buffs, sad about the flipstool change though, it was trolly as ****.

 

[ph00tbag]

Unclankable Plasma Wire might be a bit OP. It's certainly non-standard for a special move not to clank.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

tbh I'm **** at melee but in Brawl, being able to clank it and easily DI it made it mostly worthless.

HOWEVER

Brawl also has cinematic hitlag on electric moves making it really easy to DI on reaction, you can even option select it so to speak by holding up and some **** and mashing R to spot dodge, like even if you fail to dodge it you just DI out. Up-b is a non-standard move, meaning it's either going to be insanely good or an unreliable gimmick, that's kind of how Smash works. This is Melee so I say go big or go home. I love the new up-b in 3.0 so far that's for sure.

My favorite change is the fair trajectory, **** is trollolol

 

[ph00tbag]

You can't combo directly into the last hit in Brawl, so there is that.

 

[Daftatt]

when you guys say brawl, are you still talking about P:M?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

when you guys say brawl, are you still talking about P:M?

I referenced Brawl, not PM, because the move came from Brawl (for sure, lol).

And ph00t: In Brawl, up-b was not a very good move if your opponent was paying attention due to cinematic hitlag in electrical moves, inability to get into it from other moves, etc. It was a low-risk sort of move you could throw out to check to see if your opponent was paying attention, but if they were it didn't do much of anything.

In PM this patch they removed the ability to clank with it, which is to say, if ZSS throws it at you while you're above her and no longer in hitstun, throwing out another move won't cancel it. You have to shield/air dodge/spot dodge just like any other move. The difference is that ZSS' up-b is an enormously disjointed move and she's at no risk for using it, it's a very very large buff to her juggle game and possibly too strong.

However, I think "too strong" is probably just what PM ZSS needs. Her design is really fun and strong and true to what makes ZSS' core design so interesting, but just like in Brawl, she has a lot of core problems. Just like Yoshi is kinda bad in Melee and Brawl for a lot of the same reasons, ZSS is medicore in PM. So, keep the up-b change and keep looking for a way to give her a demon flip grab, LOL.

 

[ph00tbag]

Whenever you talk to me, SFP, I get the feeling you don't remember me at all.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I remember you. You abandoned us!!!!

jk sup ph00tbag :D

 

[Oro?!]

It doesn't effect as many situations as you would believe in regards to UpB not being clankable. Most situations where you want to upB your opponent, they are already in hitstun, or it just ended. The goal for upB being unclankable was more for OOS usage, and less for pulling people down. There were situations prior, in 2.6/2.5, where upB oos would get clanked by an attack, and then you would get hit by said attack. This was very common vs spacies, and left very little wiggle room vs pressure due to ZSS' otherwise pedestrian shield options. If it becomes too potent (I doubt it), then it is always up for changing some time down the road.

If anyone has any questions or comments about what changes effect, the design decisions, or any why didn't X get changed, I would be more than happy to answer and I'm sure Yeroc would as well.

 

[ph00tbag]

I wasn't aware Plasma Wire was needed as an oos option. I just mixed up wd, dodges and uair.

 

[Nausicaa]

ph00t, do this.

Zero Suit Samus < never committing to maintain control from positioning
DD into Pivot D-Smash and Up-B OOS with Grabs to follow them, Hail-Mary Dive-Kicks off-stage for edge-guards and combo-ending on a whim, and you'll accomplish more than most characters ever will, while feeling like you're not even getting much done. Oddly never afraid of ZSS, but oddly somehow she does amazingly well, a lot < common thing that will spread like a cuties.

Just do your thing with whatever you do (aerials, lasers, side-bs, whatever), but prioritize this stuff whenever the opportunity is there.
Peach Dash-Attacking you to stop your DDs/chase you down? Pivot D-Smash and she's Stunned, or Shield and Up-B and she's teching. Fox running from you? Run up and D-Smash, or bait out a movement when he's cornered and Pivot one, or just shield him/approach with it. After all of these, it's a free Grab/whatever. We all know what happens when ZSS Grabs someone, so just land it for free with these easy and safe lead-ins. Learn the dynamics of when/how to use these tools in Neutral/chasing, and you've got her BnB down. The just spam Dive-Kick off ledges for kills. FJ > Down-B WAY out there, Dive-Kick > Tether to the ledge and do it again.
Really, the thing trades with Fire-Fox, beats out anyone slow in the air with floats like Peach or linear recoveries like Link, or even Tether users are the easiest to hit.

Been spouting this around here since 2.5, and I'm glad the PMBR did something to help it (if the Up-B thing WAS for OOS... though I've never had trouble with clanking spacies aerials [then again, I never actually challenge them directly when I do it, so that's odd]). If you were doing this is 2.5, there would have been a lot more 'ZSS too good' going on to-date.
Now some cheesy combo-breaking with Down-B is gone, I like that change, too much cheese, and she's already full of it.

 

[shininimuss]

why cant zss cancel out of nair and up b in turbo mode

 

[MonkUnit]

Moves that use articles such as ZSS' N-Air and upB cannot be canceled in turbo mode. A good example of articles not being able to be canceled in Turbo mode would be Olimar and his Pikmin. His Pikmin are articles which means he cannot cancel any move that uses a Pikmin.

 

[shininimuss]

Moves that use articles such as ZSS' N-Air and upB cannot be canceled in turbo mode. A good example of articles not being able to be canceled in Turbo mode would be Olimar and his Pikmin. His Pikmin are articles which means he cannot cancel any move that uses a Pikmin.

will it stay that way? seems unfair characters like toon link and wario can continuously cancel up b in to up b,

 

[MonkUnit]

Certain moves (usually specials) are coded in certain ways that it allows them to cancel into themselves. There are also certain moves (usually specials) that are coded in certain ways that do not allow you to cancel them on hit. IIRC, Wario's sideB is a good example because it goes into a different action on hit, which means you can't cancel it on hit. You can also do grounded upB/usmash -> JC upB/usmash with every character, which looks like you're canceling the same move into the same move.

 

[ph00tbag]

Let me rephrase that.

I was always under the impression uair oos and usmash oos were better options anyway.

 

[Nausicaa]

U-Smash is like, one of the trashiest moves in the game. XD
If someone actually has an idea on when to use that in a way that will benefit her more than like... 10 other options at any one time, I'd love to know. As there's like seemingly 1 billion better things she can do all the time. haha

 

[foxygrandpa]

her charged b is amazing now, it serves as a good edgeguard, zoning, and approach option

 

[Oro?!]

At least it has uses and doesn't take the backseat to uncharged laser 100% of the time.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

U-Smash is like, one of the trashiest moves in the game. XD
If someone actually has an idea on when to use that in a way that will benefit her more than like... 10 other options at any one time, I'd love to know. As there's like seemingly 1 billion better things she can do all the time. haha

Should be a kill move

 

[Oro?!]

I think she is a fine character without an upsmash.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think she is a fine character without an upsmash.

Rephrased, if it is determined later that she needs buffs or changes, ftilt, usmash, etc. could be good areas to look at.

I'm not necessarily suggesting she needs immediate buffs to anything, although I do strongly suspect she will in the future :/

The base design of ZSS (nothing done by the PM team) leaves her open to far too much silliness and abuse. I think the nair/^b change this patch is really significant in that regard though!

Damn, Sakurai. I don't understand what about her design justified having the worst grab in all three smash games. And I don't understand why you gave all the command grabs to characters who had perfectly good grabs in the first place.

 

[ph00tbag]

My understanding is that usmash was changed such that it couldn't be SDI'd. Maybe I'm wrong about that. But if it were the case, then usmash is an amazing move, and if it's also been set not to clank with aerials, then it's absolutely stellar and needs no improvements, and anyone who says otherwise is just not trying hard enough to apply it.

 

[Daftatt]

Damn, Sakurai. I don't understand what about her design justified having the worst grab in all three smash games. And I don't understand why you gave all the command grabs to characters who had perfectly good grabs in the first place.

when was ZSS in anything but brawl? Anyways, I'm just glad P:M took away the MASSIVE dead zone in her grab and Up-Special

will it stay that way? seems unfair characters like toon link and wario can continuously cancel up b in to up b,

lol, turbo mode and fair shouldn't be in the same sentence.

 

[Kati]

when was ZSS in anything but brawl? Anyways, I'm just glad P:M took away the MASSIVE dead zone in her grab and Up-Special


lol, turbo mode and fair shouldn't be in the same sentence.

ZSS was introduced in Zero Mission. The energy whip is Sakurai's invention.

 

[Daftatt]

ZSS was introduced in Zero Mission. The energy whip is Sakurai's invention.

Yeah, I know that, I was asking what smash games ZSS was in because shinimuss said something about ZSS in all three smash games, and I was all like "whaaaa??"

 

[BILL?]

I think he meant to say "she has the worst grab of any character in any of the smash games."
Personally I find her grab to be highly punishable on whiff but still an effective move due to its follow up and range.
The combo potential off of her throws is superb. One grab can easily lead to 40%+ or a KO.

 

[Kati]

Yeah, I know that, I was asking what smash games ZSS was in because shinimuss said something about ZSS in all three smash games, and I was all like "whaaaa??"

ahh I see. I guess he's referring to Samus' grapple beam so slow, but I don't know what brought the power suit into this.

 

[Daftatt]

I think he meant to say "she has the worst grab of any character in any of the smash games."
Personally I find her grab to be highly punishable on whiff but still an effective move due to its follow up and range.
The combo potential off of her throws is superb. One grab can easily lead to 40%+ or a KO.

shadic told me that ZSS is the only character that can grab people out of the air?

 

[ph00tbag]

Is that a new thing in 3.0? Before then, I'm pretty sure anyone could grab anyone out of the air no matter what.

Technically, even in Melee, tether characters did all have an air grab hitbox on the first frames of their tether, but it wasn't very long-ranged.

 

[Daftatt]

it may be a new thing in 3.0, I would have to check with link/samus/lucas/ivy