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Surprise, it's Unstoppabrawl! (Looking for local players!)

ぱみゅ

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Just a little question:
why there's a "__MACOSX" folder along with the "fighter" folder in the DL?
 

BSL

B-B-B-BLAMM!!!
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it happens when you zip up files with the built in compress tool in macs. its useless, basically.

not sure, but i think it contains metadata and other space wasting things.
 

Thinkaman

Moderator
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Passing thoughts, at machine gun pace:

This suffers from Brawl-'s "Why should I ever block?" syndrome. This in turn means grabbing is generally a bad move for people not named Olimar, DDD, Jigglypuff, and such except in weird super armor cases that are now skewing matchups.

I like how some people are trying to describe this as BB with a higher balance target when MK is nerfed significantly more.

Ganondorf and Falcon are going to have really stupid double-side-b edge games. It's even more dumb on platforms.

Ganondorf's speed changes are pretty inconsistent. Random things are faster without rhyme or reason. Why was Thunderstorming nerfed, of all things? Ganon d-tilt is still way better than most his moves, now joined with nair spam. U-tilt and Warlock Punch are still relatively worthless.

Am I missing something, or is Toon Link substantially buffed? What's next, Olimar?

Oh. He is.

Peach is going to be absurd with crappy shields to begin with, much less specific buffs. A nearly safe counter and an armored projectile?

What's up with changed Fox's weight? Why make him easier to juggle?

Jigglypuff... Why would you nerf Fair? Her ground moveset and sing are still awful with these changes, which I think isn't what you are going for. Rollout wrecking shields is realllllly skewed with respect to level of play; it's irrelevant at high-level and still a trash move but more overpowered than Din's Fire at low levels. Meanwhile, Pound is insane but can no longer kill? Huh? Sing is also still trash.

Not that any of this matters because dair is a guaranteed Rest or Shield Break (OOPS CAN'T POWERSHIELD IT!) at all times, on everyone.


G&W is now even more u-smash spam. There may be some character who literally cannot get through it, at least without certain options. Dash attack is also weird. I don't understand why you'd buff up-b either, it's already one of the absolute best moves in the game, practically Shuttle Loop Jr. Edition.

I'm going to estimate the the Jigglypuff/Diddy matchup is at least 8:2, and Jigglypuff/G&W is 1:9. There's just a lot of balance issues running around here.

Speaking of move disparity, Din's Fire is still terrible. Good luck ever fixing that in the current framework.

Ness fair is already one of the best moves in Brawl, and you majorly buffed it? Ironically bbrawl does too by adding shield damage... which you didn't do. Meanwhile, he poor ground game outside of grabs was left mostly intact?

Snake's nerf pale in comparison to his nair and dair being god-tier moves. You can't dodge them, and now you can't block them either. Why would Snake do much else?

I hope none of this sounds rude, there's just several of these cases where the changes implemented are random or counter-constructive to your stated goals. Many bad moves were ignored or improved in an ultimately meaningless way, and several good moves were made even better. The balance target seems very inconsistent, as well as the exact nature of shield behavior you want. (Which again, in most cases ends up as Brawl- levels of unusability.)

Ultimately it's hard to see this as much else than "someone got a copy of bbrawl and made a bunch of changes to attacks and mechanics he didn't like". (Which is fine.) However, that definition is basically what Brawl+ was, except you started with bbrawl. You seem confused in the comparisons people are making, but the idea that Brawl is mechanically flawed and needs fixing, specifically via means of overvaluing offense, is exactly like Brawl+. The difference is that most complaints people have with Brawl being defensive relate to character speed and victim options on-hit, not that shielding is overpowered. Making shields nearly worthless doesn't change that.

Also, for the attacks with unchanged shield damage, the shield is still almost as good--that's the bizarre thing. Since you focused on shield regen as a nerf target, you've added significant incentive to run away, spam safe projectiles, plank, or scrooge. It just isn't very well thought out.

I really don't mean this as a personal attack at all, but when you throw in things like "I'll take out stale moves", "If luck is removed, the game will be better", or "I know, I'll buff rest!" it comes across as very amateurish. These are the sort of knee-jerk things you see new designers trying to do all the time, it's practically text-book. Again, I don't mean this to be rude at all. Hit me up on AIM/MSN sometime.

Finally, just as a warning you might want to give credit to uh, everyone. I don't give a hill of beans myself, but some other people might crucify you over it.
 

ぱみゅ

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Good ol' Thinkaman's wall o' text. It's been a while since last time I saw one of them (when Balanced Brawl was young) lol

tl;dr
he told you that your "balance" is derailed.
A lot of random buffs makes some of them useless, and some other polarizing.
Is a good thing you tried to be non-ultraconservative as BBrawl does, but it seems to be heading to a B- like game, but with no hitstun.
As the comunity input, we're just giving an advise to help achieve that "more balanced and funnier with no changes to physics" goal you stated you're aiming for.
 

GameTrekker

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
43
Just a little question:
why there's a "__MACOSX" folder along with the "fighter" folder in the DL?
I was just informed of the existence of this aberration two days ago.

...Yeah, feel free to either keep it or delete it; makes no difference.


[a LOT of stuff that would needlessly stretch any post if quoted in full]
Oh! Oh wow.

Well, this is... humbling, to say the least.

It's difficult for me to specifically address everything you've said here, so I'll just reply to a few things for now and add that I'm definitely taking you up on that AIM offer.

Why should players block in Unstoppabrawl? Well, shieldgrabbing works just as well, and throws are generally improved, providing plenty of characters with better setups and even KO options.

And no, you don't come across as rude. From what I can tell, the overall tone of your post is... concerned. Also I greatly appreciate your input; this is very important stuff. We have a lot to talk about.

As for giving credit and such, yeah, I really need to. I've just had trouble organizing all the names and figuring out how to format it. I'll work on that more right now. EDIT: Okay, I've finished this for now and added the result to the OP.
 

RESET Vao

Smash Journeyman
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This is fantastic! I don't know enough about BBrawl and Brawl+ to comment but it sure seems better than Brawl-. I'll give it a pop when I can be bothered, don't mean to sound rude, I'm just playing around with textures alot right now (Homebrew/Riivolution scrub). Best of luck with this.
 

GameTrekker

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
43
GT! PI has now added Ubrawl to the list of games. Here is the link if you wanna check out the site for yourself. http://fsmash.org/

EDIT : G! I managed to remove jigglypuff's instant death after a sheild. I edited her sheildbreak velocity. It is now at 2.442, . Here is the pac.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/v8q7l9 (UBrawl Jigglypuff with no death sheildbreak)
Excellent stuff! I very much appreciate your help, and this fix to Jigglypuff will be in the next build.
 

Naisora

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 20, 2009
Messages
180
Location
Glendale,California
Game Trekker, I was able to make it so Lucas' and Wolfs up B hits always connect. However I'm not 100 percent sure if it works or not, i havent tested it yet. Here are the pacs :

http://www.sendspace.com/file/uputy3 (UBrawl Lucas with always connecting up B hits)

http://www.sendspace.com/file/fyaptr (UBrawl Wolf with always connecting up B hits)

What I did was make the DI'ing abbility 0. This way they cant escape. If you want me try another method, I'm up.

EDIT 2: Tested the pacs. They work.
 

GameTrekker

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
43
Hmm, unfortunately I don't see how that change alone could possibly fix the problem. The problem isn't that they never connect fully, since they usually do when used horizontally; the problem is that they only connect fully when used horizontally. Did you make sure to check if they'll hit fully when traveling straight up?

The reason this problem exists is because the angle on the hitbubbles doesn't change depending on the direction the move travels, meaning it'll hit sideways into each next hit when horizontal, but hit sideways away from the next hit when vertical. Some extra code would have to be put in to correct this, but I have no idea how to accomplish that, which is of course why the problem is still there.
 

highfive

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 22, 2009
Messages
1,324
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Buhl, Idaho
Hm. Interesting idea. I like it.

Here are a few words that came to my mind while reading the OP:

Extreme, Concept, Mario's Dtilt, and Boobs.

I suppose you can take them as a compliment.
 

GameTrekker

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
43
Er, nope, sorry, that's not a function of the Sakurai Angle. If it were, I would have already discovered it while experimenting with Falco's ^B (which is also multi-hit while traveling). In vBrawl, it already has the Sakurai Angle on it, and that proves more of a hindrance to hitting fully, regardless of its Knockback Growth and Base Knockback. I eventually settled on changing that move's angle to 45º to at least give it the potential to hit fully when aimed properly.

The only special thing about the Sakurai Angle, as far as I know, is that it changes somewhat depending on the damage the opponent has. That's it. If it had this extra effect, it would already be in use for such in other mods.

The problem that these directed multi-hit moves have does not have a solution as simple as this.


Hm. Interesting idea. I like it.

Here are a few words that came to my mind while reading the OP:

Extreme, Concept, Mario's Dtilt, and Boobs.

I suppose you can take them as a compliment.
Uh, alright then. Thanks. :)
 

GameTrekker

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
43
361 doesn't do that. 363 and 365 do (363 sends them in the angle the hitbox is travelling, 365 does that and makes the knockback equal to the hitbox's speed). In hex: 16B and 16D.
Following your post, I did some experimentation with this, and... wow. You're right! It actually works! I'll make good use of this for the next build.

Why the developers themselves didn't use 365º (which I now call the "Directed Angle") more is a mystery to me.
 

BEES

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
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Chapel Hill, NC
Try to make the FS more controllable. The balls are quite random . Make it similar to street fighter where they are awarded based on how much damage you take.
Has anyone suggested the PowerStone system yet?

Have 3-4 smash balls, and once you collect them all by picking each of them up, you can activate your final smash.
 

GameTrekker

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
43
...This is news to you?
Well, yeah. Remember, until releasing the beta here, I had no contacts in the community. I tried to keep up with the latest developments and such, but this one apparently got past me.


Has anyone suggested the PowerStone system yet?

Have 3-4 smash balls, and once you collect them all by picking each of them up, you can activate your final smash.
Interesting idea. But... what purpose would it serve exactly? It won't fix any of the Smash Ball balance problems by itself.
 

BEES

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Chapel Hill, NC
What it does is allow you to gain a final smash in a non-randomized way without invoking meters or any other traditional fighting game elements. It also means that since it's item based, you could still choose to play with final smashes off.

The final smashes themselves would still need to be balanced.
 

GameTrekker

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
43
Ah, I probably should have explained why it doesn't help, then. The problem with Smash Balls is their random movement and random spawn locations. I don't see how having to acquire multiple Smash Balls makes the race for them more balanced or less random. As for keeping them as something that can be turned on or off, note that in vBrawl there is already a way to be awarded a Final Smash without breaking a Smash Ball (by being a number of stocks behind in a match), and this is still activated/deactivated when Smash Balls are turned on/off. So, being able to play with or without Final Smashes by choice shouldn't be difficult, regardless of how they are changed.

Balancing the Final Smash attacks themselves is a whole different task altogether. ...as is fixing my mod so none of them crash the game in the first place.
 

Hozu

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2009
Messages
347
The spawn locations can be changed sorta. You could just move all the item spawn points for each stage to a single spot. That doesn't change the movement though, and it sounds like a last resort.
 

GameTrekker

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
43
The "indefinitely final version"

of Unstoppabrawl

has been released!

Also a Smash Stack version is finally available!

See this thread's first post for most of the details. The rest are below.


Notable changes from the beta

Ground techs are back to normal speed. It turns out that this was what was causing a number of Final Smashes to crash the game. To prevent ground techs from becoming useless again, they now stay invincible until interruptible.

Speaking of glitches, nearly all of them have been fixed, including previously unlisted ones like one involving the fairs of Donkey Kong and Ganondorf. (See the Known Glitches section of the OP for information about those remaining.)

A number of fighters' jabs have been tweaked to properly combo all hits.

Bowser's fsmash grants slightly longer super armor.

Donkey Kong's fthrow variations have all been improved slightly.

Link and Toon Link can instantly interrupt their boomerang catching animations.

Din's Fire is fun at last! It now hits opponents towards Zelda (like Link's modified Gale Boomerang), and is interruptible much earlier, allowing for Zelda to potentially massively capitalize on landing it (if she can manage it). Also it no longer puts her in a helpless falling state if she uses it in the air.

Ganondorf no longer feels lopsidedly speedy (like he did in the beta). This is accomplished via a number of changes to his jab, restoring the landing lag on his nair, and fixing a glitch with his aerial vB that caused its landing lag to be interruptible very early. Further notes on this: The nair's landing lag will now only trigger after the second kick, and the landing lag on his aerial vB is shorter than it was in vBrawl but not dramatically shorter like it was sometimes in the Unstoppabrawl beta.

Speaking of Ganondorf, my accidental nerf to the Thunderstorming technique has been fixed. Thunderstorming is now as effective as ever, and even easier to perform.

Again about Ganondorf, the ground version of his vB saw another buff, this time to the size of its hitbubbles. This makes it easier to hit with and impossible to duck under (as some characters like Snake and Squirtle could do previously).

One last thing about Ganondorf: In the beta, his >B no longer put him in a helpless falling state. This is still the case, but in the beta it presented a problem with ledges, as it allowed him to do the attack close to a ledge and then immediately cancel it into anything else, even itself, upon becoming airborne. This provided the potential for a whole bunch of very silly and frankly counterproductive mindgames. To fix this, Ganondorf now tumbles off of ledges instead, falling unstoppably for one second before he can interrupt it. If done off the side of the stage, he can easily recover. And if done in the air, he still won't tumble at all.

The speed at which Toon Link's B charges has been returned to normal.

Toon Link's >B has been retooled again. Now it does minimal damage and no knockback at all on the way out, and doesn't turn around when it hits an opponent either. Then on the way back, it trips instead of stuns, deals increased damage, and still hits airborne opponents downward.

Samus' zair sweetspot does 1% less damage, and her vB does 1% more damage.

Transforming into Zero Suit Samus can no longer be punished due to the addition of an Allow Interrupt when her invincibility wears off.

Pit and Olimar run at their normal speeds again. This was also causing the crashing problems with Final Smashes. To compensate, Pit's dash attack is now even faster. As for Olimar... he didn't really need the buff in the first place.

Ice Climbers are updated to the latest Balanced Brawl version, and their ^B has been thoroughly buffed. The buffs to their B and vB that were in the beta have been carried over.

Kirby properly copies his opponents! Hooray! Note that there are some that he either doesn't copy perfectly (like Squirtle and Ike) or will still copy the same as vBrawl (like Fox); this was done intentionally.

Meta Knight's utilt and vB have been further buffed.

Wolf's fthrow in Balanced Brawl has been ported over.

Wolf's ^B hits more reliably regardless of which direction it travels.

Captain Falcon's >B makes him tumble when it goes from the ground to the air, in the same way Ganondorf's now does.

Pikachu's fair has longer landing lag, preventing various abuses that arose in the beta.

Pikachu's bair, fthrow and bthrow have all seen a knockback nerf. They are all still better than they were in vBrawl, however.

The shield damage on Lucario's ^B has been drastically reduced. This attack turned out to be WAY better than I anticipated.

Jigglypuff no longer dies instantly after suffering a shield break.

Jigglypuff's ^B causes prolonged sleep instead of a sluggish waking up animation.

The hit that was added to Ike's dtilt causes slipping to prevent opponents from getting hit by it and then blocking the second swing.

Ike's nair can be interrupted slightly earlier.

Lucas' ^B hits more reliably regardless of which direction it travels, but also had its damage reduced back to what it was in vBrawl. In addition to this, though, its shield damage was increased.

Snake's nair and dair do much less shield damage, but still significantly more than vBrawl.

Snake's ^B does much more damage.

Snake can always use his ^B again after being grabbed out of it.

The following attacks do still-significant-but-noticeably-less shield damage...
Yoshi's dair
Pit's ftilt
R.O.B.'s >B
Pikachu's >B
Lucario's dash attack
Mr. Game & Watch's dash attack

The following additional attacks have revamped knockback properties...
Luigi's dtilt
Wario's dthrow
Sonic's dtilt

Lastly, Balanced Brawl's fixes to a few stalling tactics have been implemented.


Yeah, no further Final Smash balancing or randomness removal (e.g. what I was planning for Mr. Game & Watch's >B). However, contact me if you can help with this, because accomplishing these is too difficult of an addition to this project for just myself to complete, yet still something I'd very much like to see happen.

Unless I am presented with a very promising opportunity to add these remaining improvements to Unstoppabrawl, this "indefinitely final version" will very likely be the last release of the mod. At this time, I am also taking a break from Brawl modding, but this probably won't be the last you'll see of my work here. I don't have anything solid to share yet, so that's all I'll say for now.


In the meantime, I hereby open up this thread for discussion of the "indefinitely final version", and for anyone to ask me any and all questions they might have about the project, my methods, or the purposes of the changes I made. I'm still going to be making a comments sheet to explain some of this, but it won't be the comprehensive one that was originally planned. Instead it will simply feature a short paragraph for each fighter about the overall changes they received, along with highlights of each fighter's game-changing modifications.

Oh, and please tell me if you find any new glitches or any inconsistencies between the change list and the implemented changes. I've done my best to make sure there aren't any of these, but I'm only human, of course.


And that is indefinitely it! Enjoy!
 

AceSe3don

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Messages
558
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Kuwait
Most impressive...
You know, I tried Brawl+, vBrawl and Balanced Brawl and they weren't any good for me, but this just sounds amazing.
 

Kaye Cruiser

Waveshocker Sigma
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Am I the only person who DOESN'T see a download link anywhere? >_>
 

[TSON]

Hella.
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DOWNLOADS (updated for the "indefinitely final version")
main GCT file - This needs the GCT loader to work, and should be put in the "pf" folder (in the "RSBE" folder in the "app" folder in the "wii" folder in the "private" folder in the root of your SD card). I imagine most of you reading this know what I'm talking about.
PSA character files - This folder (once unzipped) should also go in the "pf" folder.
text file used to make the main GCT - This is for any of you who want to add your own modifications to mine. (Note that the Smash Stack download comes with its own version of this.)
GCT loader - This is the only file that is the same as it was for the beta. As the link suggests, it is the GCT loader for anyone who doesn't have it. Just put it in the "codes" folder in the root of your SD card and delete the "load" in the filename.
-comments sheet coming soon-
full Unstoppabrawl download (that uses Smash Stack to be bootable on unmodded Wii systems!) - Here's the download you want if you don't have the Homebrew Channel. To install it (once you've downloaded and unpacked the ZIP file), first remove all custom stages from your Wii (even the ones that come with Brawl); and if that means putting them on your SD card, be sure to either move or rename the folder on the card called "private" after you've done so. Then, place the contents of the "contents go to SD root" folder in the root of your SD card. Now, any time you want to play Unstoppabrawl, boot up Brawl and go straight to the Stage Builder (in Vault), which will start the loader; just press A to "Launch Game" and you'll be good to go!

Note: If any of these downloads produce an extra folder with "MACOSX" in the filename, that folder can be deleted.

Now outdated: Hozu added Riivolution support for the beta. His XML file can be found here. Be sure to properly follow the instructions on that page.
It's still there.
 

BEES

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
1,051
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
It's in the first post, but the Links are colored gray

It would be nice to have at least one video to show off this project
I was wondering about that. I might be less reluctant to go through the effort to set the files up (when I already have B+ and B- on the card), if I knew what it actually looked like.
 

Pierce7d

Wise Hermit
Joined
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3DS FC
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This received no hype, wasn't at Apex, and I didn't hear about it at all till now. I may eventually play it for fun, but it really was overshadowed by Brawl Minus and the upcoming ProjectM.
 

Pierce7d

Wise Hermit
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That wouldn't stop most people from playing a beta release. Every game ever has balance issues. It's mostly just not knowing about it. You should have hyped it up way more while it was in the development stage.

I do want to play though. I love shield pressure.
 

Mastermooseman

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Messages
28
1- it was hard to find this
2- your download of the main pack for the game is only 30 downloads.. it deserves some more.
3- smashmods should at least "MENTION" this on the site

4- "You know, I tried Brawl+, vBrawl and Balanced Brawl and they weren't any good for me, but this just sounds amazing."

when i test this game out tomorow i hope what you said isnt an over-statement XD, though you didnt have to add that vBrawl wasnt good for you XD. also if you read TankaMans Wall of Rudeness post on page 6 you will get alittle less enthusiastic XD (wall of Rudeness is joke i know you are just giving positive criticism)
 
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