Official BBR Recommended Rule List 3.0

AvaricePanda · Aug 3, 2010

Blacknight99923 said:
My thoughts on the BBR stagelist

it sucks...... (but thats my opinion)

that being said I can't blame the BBR for arriving at any different conclusion in all honesty. With the fact that the criteria for banning is so small its almost impossible to ban several things. However at the same time many things that they do banned are so opinionated that it too causes even more debate.

If I have the rules for banning wrong then correct me

The definition of "something is to random it prevents someone from playing brawl" is very poor. using a subjective term to that degree will always produce arguments where no player is right.

then there's the criteria of "an overpowering tactic that prevents you from playing brawl". Here we have infinites that are banned. Now I ask why isn't picking a character a tactic? the first choice you make in a match is your control settings and followed by your character, finally leading up to stage selection. Why isn't it a strategy that you pick metaknight in conjunction with brinstar bannable? In fact its just as degrading to game play as D3's wall infinites and walk offs could be.

How is this different than picking D3 in conjunction with bridge of eldin? In all honesty all of your actions in a match are dictated by your first decision in character selection, if you don't pick D3 you can't walk off to death. If you don't pick MK you can't shark, torndado abuse, ect on brinstar

There are some issues with the playing to win philosophy. Its that it doesn't apply to Smash like it does to street fighter. I could be wrong but in street fighter the number of random elements in are significantly fewer in default gameplay (not including unlocking characters that kind of stuff) than in brawls gameplay. If your gambling on an item showing up and you lose or win because it does or doesn't show up you aren't playing to win because you are allowing factors outside your control to dictate your decisions.

So in a sense the community plays to win by not allowing themselves to lose to things that are outside their control.

Secondly what gives playing to win (not including the trying to win part I am referring to the rest of the philosophy sovereignty to make decisions about our metagame exactly?

things about playing to win is that in any game the purpose is to win. naturally you cannot expect someone to do something that hinders their chances of winning.

But what it doesn't address is the human element of making a game better. Why shouldn't we play the game we want to play if it doesn't impede our ability to win?

People claim that a 9 or 7 or 5 stage starter lists are better but in reality those are opinions. I don't see how japan isn't playing to win? they aren't risking their chances of winning to random luck, they are playing on 3 stages that have little to not changes during the match. Its a preference and quite frankly so is stating green greens should be legal.

tl;dr anything past trying to win is opinionated and cannot be proven in definite terms

Also its pretty pathetic that only 20 BBR members voted on the stage lists.

For those of you who will be missing my points in walls of text

*The BBR cannot have chosen a different stage list
*the banning criteria needs to be changed to something that's not subjective and if that's impossible then do it by the majority using preference alone with baseline objective rules
*People claiming that EC are scrubs are simply stating their opinions on what makes a better game
* the BBR needs to have more people vote on their stage lists

this is pretty much the best post in this thread.

BBQTV · Aug 3, 2010

the only thing that bothers me is the rule which hurts kirby bowser and ganon more so for ganon and bowser

MetalMusicMan · Aug 3, 2010

BBQTV said:
the only thing that bothers me is the rule which hurts kirby bowser and ganon more so for ganon and bowser

They never had a suicide rule to begin with. The only rule that was ever instated was for Bowser. The "initiator gets the kill" stance was made up randomly and inserted without considering how imbalanced and arbitrary it was. That stance was never supported.

Kaffei · Aug 3, 2010

Wait, so there is NO ledge grab limit? Why not???

BBQTV · Aug 3, 2010

MetalMusicMan said:
They never had a suicide rule to begin with. The only rule that was ever instated was for Bowser. The "initiator gets the kill" stance was made up randomly and inserted without considering how imbalanced and arbitrary it was. That stance was never supported.

maybe no one from the backroom but im sure ganons, bowsers and kirbys supported it and doesn't that matter?

MythTrainerInfinity · Aug 3, 2010

Vyse said:
The original idea is to give TO's with no experience or opinion to rely on, a rule set that any person with a copy of Brawl can use.

You guys should put this in the OP at the top in big letters, that will end most of the confusion.

In many people's opinion there is a big difference between Counterpick and Counterpick/Banned. So moving all of those from C/B to Counterpick is huge.

DJMirror · Aug 3, 2010

milesg2g said:
hey, look on the bright side.

You could always Main MK.

Or the brighter side.

Just don't play the game with that ruleset at tournaments

MetalMusicMan · Aug 3, 2010

BBQTV said:
maybe no one from the backroom but im sure ganons, bowsers and kirbys supported it and doesn't that matter?

It's really not a fair rule. Why should they be awarded a win if the game says they lose / tie? There is no reason for it other than an arbitrary decision.

I use DeDeDe. I swallow-cide all the time. That doesn't mean that I should just be giving a win for getting one. If I am at 1 stock and my opponent is too, as a player, I understand the risk of them wiggling out just before the bottom.

Ganondorfs should understand the fact that their win/loss is random.

You can still suicide kill just the same as you always do as long as it's not on the very last stock. There, you have to be careful. That makes sense-- there's no reason you should get a free with separate from the game's ruling just because you "ate them" or whatever.

MetalMusicMan · Aug 3, 2010

Darn-- meant to edit this into my post and accidentally posted twice. Darned cell phone posting.

MythTrainerInfinity said:
In many people's opinion there is a big difference between Counterpick and Counterpick/Banned. So moving all of those from C/B to Counterpick is huge.

People are really misinterpreting it, and it's unfortunate. Especially considering that it's listed twice in the post. Once at the very top:

The rules at any particular tournament are always at the discretion of the tournament organizer, but we recommend this rule set as a base guideline for all tournament organizers to use.

and once at the bottom in "notes":

This ruleset is the recommendation of the Brawl Back Room for how to run competitive Super Smash Brothers: Brawl tournaments. We do not condemn TOs for holding tournaments with alternative or even noncompetitive rulesets. It was through experimentation and open but critical thinking that we reached these recommendations, and we encourage TOs to continue the search for improvements and novelties.

If ADHD or whoever that only likes a small stage list wants to host a tournament with less stages, more power to them. It's their tournament. All of the freaking out is totally uncalled for.

ADHD · Aug 3, 2010

I'm sorry but anyone with a brain would be able to tell this stagelist is a joke.

The BBR hasn't accomplished anything other than degenerating us closer to Brawl's release.

It's just a suggestion, so notable TO's-don't take this seriously. I rly can't.

rPSIvysaur · Aug 3, 2010

MetalMusicMan said:
It's really not a fair rule. Why should they be awarded a win if the game says they lose / tie? There is no reason for it other than an arbitrary decision.

Our ruleset is completely arbitrary. The game didn't come with 3-stocks at 8 minutes. We made these rules completely arbitrarily, and now you're using a rule being arbitrary as a defense? That's horrible.

Suspect · Aug 3, 2010

This just encourages more people to use mk now, I suggest everyone does. Also I suggest T.O' use their own stage lists and not this crap.

edit: I really hope this is a joke.

MetalMusicMan · Aug 3, 2010

rPSI said:
Our ruleset is completely arbitrary. The game didn't come with 3-stocks at 8 minutes. We made these rules completely arbitrarily, and now you're using a rule being arbitrary as a defense? That's horrible.

Incorrect.

We did not make up the rules of 3 stock, 8 minute timer. The game gives us those rules to chose from, and we pick them. We didn't "mold the game into what it is", we picked from the options the game gives us.

There is no option to say that "you get an auto-win from suicide kills" or that "you can only grab the ledge so many times".

Those options do not exist.

ADHD said:
I'm sorry but anyone with a brain would be able to tell this stagelist is a joke.

The BBR hasn't accomplished anything other than degenerating us closer to Brawl's release.

It's just a suggestion, so notable TO's-don't take this seriously. I rly can't.

Again, why the freaking out NOW? The stages were all present in v2.0 ... we recommend more Counters now... that doesn't really mean anything. People still ignored Counters like Pirate Ship in v2.0 if they so desired. Why didn't you freak out about Pirate Ship back then? What's different that makes you freak out now?

BBQTV · Aug 3, 2010

but according to the rules chu dat would have not won that match with korn and we all know how epic that was

MythTrainerInfinity · Aug 3, 2010

MetalMusicMan said:
Darn-- meant to edit this into my post and accidentally posted twice. Darned cell phone posting.

People are really misinterpreting it, and it's unfortunate. Especially considering that it's listed twice in the post. Once at the very top:

and once at the bottom in "notes":

If ADHD or whoever that only likes a small stage list wants to host a tournament with less stages, more power to them. It's their tournament. All of the freaking out is totally uncalled for.

Its just the way its worded really does not give enough power or oopmh to it.

If it was worded like how Vyse worded it I think it would help prevent some chaos.

Kole · Aug 3, 2010

MetalMusicMan said:
Incorrect.

We did not make up the rules of 3 stock, 8 minute timer. The game gives us those rules to chose from, and we pick them. We didn't "mold the game into what it is", we picked from the options the game gives us.

There is no option to say that "you get an auto-win from suicide kills" or that "you can only grab the ledge so many times".

Those options do not exist.

We should only have one match in a set. There is no option in the game that says "best of 3" or "best of 5".

Those options do not exist.

rPSIvysaur · Aug 3, 2010

MetalMusicMan said:
Incorrect.

We did not make up the rules of 3 stock, 8 minute timer. The game gives us those rules to chose from, and we pick them. We didn't "mold the game into what it is", we picked from the options the game gives us.

There is no option to say that "you get an auto-win from suicide kills" or that "you can only grab the ledge so many times".

Those options do not exist.

The game doesn't end a match because you put someone in an infinite past 300. So obviously there is a level in which your ruleset is completely arbitrary.

MetalMusicMan · Aug 3, 2010

_proxy_ said:
We should only have one match in a set. There is no option in the game that says "best of 3" or "best of 5".

These options do not exist.

That's not the same thing, that's a rule for the number of sets played, which any game uses. We could make that anything that we want to, yeah. That's not us changing THE GAME though. That's just us saying how many times we should play before our set is done. It's the same in Quake, or Street Fighter, or whatever else you want to look at because it's a standard of competition. It has nothing to do with THE GAME or how it plays, though.

rPSI said:
The game doesn't end a match because you put someone in an infinite past 300. So obviously there is a level in which your ruleset is completely arbitrary.

A small amount, only where completely necessary to prevent. We should strive to minimize such changes.

Raziek · Aug 3, 2010

_proxy_ said:
We should only have one match in a set. There is no option in the game that says "best of 3" or "best of 5".

Those options do not exist.

You guys are probably the worst bunch of debaters I've ever seen in my life. All you do is pull awful strawmen with no backing whatsoever.

God, you're just DUMB.

mikeHAZE · Aug 3, 2010

Raziek said:
You guys are probably the worst bunch of debaters I've ever seen in my life. All you do is pull awful strawmen with no backing whatsoever.

God, you're just DUMB.

yet you're the one thats mad

lol

Deleted member · Aug 3, 2010

I want to cry. This rule set is awful. I would just pick up MK if i wasn't so bad with him. There's so much i hate about this new rule set, not even going to get into it.

Raziek · Aug 3, 2010

Dr. Lady Artemis said:
I want to cry. This rule set is awful. I would just pick up MK if i wasn't so bad with him. There's so much i hate about this new rule set, not even going to get into it.

Wow, nice argument, clearly this is enough to refute legitimate points.

/sarcasm.

Kole · Aug 3, 2010

Raziek said:
You guys are probably the worst bunch of debaters I've ever seen in my life. All you do is pull awful strawmen with no backing whatsoever.

God, you're just DUMB.

lol at this

I'm not trying to debate here, that's why I almost never even bother.

calling me dumb is completely uncalled for.

@Raziek again: Artemis is not making an argument, dipshit. He is just saying that he doesn't like the ruleset. And saying "nice argument" isn't going to get you anywhere, is it?

Vermanubis · Aug 3, 2010

Dr. Lady Artemis said:
I want to cry. This rule set is awful. I would just pick up MK if i wasn't so bad with him. There's so much i hate about this new rule set, not even going to get into it.

Wild Arty appeared.

Zephil · Aug 3, 2010

I want to play in the Mario Bros and Mushroomy Kingdom, make it legal please BBR!!

I want to kill with the POW button and crabbies!!

Oh and also Summit, what can go wrong with that stage??

ppl not seeing that is /sarcasm have mental issues -___-

swordgard · Aug 3, 2010

_proxy_ said:
lol at this

I'm not trying to debate here, that's why I almost never even bother.

calling me dumb is completely uncalled for.

Not trying to debate yet senselessly using fallacies pretty much qualifies for acting dumb.

BBQTV · Aug 3, 2010

hey guys i gotz a secret

you dont have to use these rules!

r i lulzy yet?

Mikachiru · Aug 3, 2010

...Is Proxy trolling...?

And Raziek. Try to be nicer, please. Name calling isn't good.

Kaffei · Aug 3, 2010

So there's no ledge grab limit??

ADHD · Aug 3, 2010

You can't debate when you haven't experienced the **** you are trying to implicate.

Have you ever fought a good MK, DDD on counterpicks? That is BEYOND versatility, and you claim WE neuter the game and deduce it to "scrubland." This list is completely removing valuable parts of the metagame, and in fact, limiting it even more than the most of conservative rulesets when you have only 5 viable characters.

Edit: Well one, sorry I was just theory-crafting. All the versatile characters are butt-***** by MK.

milesg2g · Aug 3, 2010

Won't these rules be denied if majority of the TO's in smash just ignore it and go w/ the usual one's? lol

Deleted member · Aug 3, 2010

Errr
>.>

I dont understand why the BBR takes a stance against the majority of the community, including top players (not that top players are always RIGHT, but they obviously have a lot of experience with the game at the highest level of competition). Theres a difference between leading, and simply trying to push rules that MOST PEOPLE DONT WANT onto others.

The suicide rule is just silly, who cares what the game says, its a bad way to make a rule, and it makes bad characters worse. Even though the BBR shouldnt be trying to balance the game, it should try to limit rules that straight up unbalance the game, when the option that THE MAJORITY FOLLOW AND AGREE WITH is very easy to implement. The game says to play sudden death if MK runs time.

mikeHAZE · Aug 3, 2010

guys calm down, lets take a breather

and watch raziek get ***** by a snake

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3DgN1R-wbg

Kole · Aug 3, 2010

Mikachiru said:
...Is Proxy trolling...?

And Raziek. Try to be nicer, please. Name calling isn't good.

What part of it? My first post to MetalMusicMan was sort of, trying to show how ridiculous his argument was.

Also, I'd appreciate you calling me by my actual name. I have that in two different places here for a reason.

milesg2g said:
Won't these rules be denied if majority of the TO's in smash just ignore it and go w/ the usual one's? lol

Pretty much. experienced TOs will know better than to implement a ruleset that so many people disagree with. And TOs usually don't go exactly by the BBR ruleset anyway, they have the own rulesets in many cases.

MJG · Aug 3, 2010

mikeHAZE said:
guys calm down, lets take a breather

and watch raziek get ***** by a snake

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3DgN1R-wbg

Ahahaha

The call out.

I love these new stages

///sarcasm

swordgard · Aug 3, 2010

burntsocks said:
Errr
>.>

I dont understand why the BBR takes a stance against the majority of the community, including top players (not that top players are always RIGHT, but they obviously have a lot of experience with the game at the highest level of competition). Theres a difference between leading, and simply trying to push rules that MOST PEOPLE DONT WANT onto others.

The suicide rule is just silly, who cares what the game says, its a bad way to make a rule, and it makes bad characters worse. Even though the BBR shouldnt be trying to balance the game, it should try to limit rules that straight up unbalance the game, when the option that THE MAJORITY FOLLOW AND AGREE WITH is very easy to implement. The game says to play sudden death if MK runs time.

Punch time is just as silly, yet it follows the exact same train of thoughts.

Kaffei · Aug 3, 2010

Lmao @ mikeHAZE

and WHY IS THERE NO LGL.

Juushichi · Aug 3, 2010

Kaffei, there never was a LGL, lol. Otherwise it's been explained already.

Ganonsburg · Aug 3, 2010

rPSI said:
Our ruleset is completely arbitrary. The game didn't come with 3-stocks at 8 minutes. We made these rules completely arbitrarily, and now you're using a rule being arbitrary as a defense? That's horrible.

MetalMusicMan said:
It's really not a fair rule. Why should they be awarded a win if the game says they lose / tie? There is no reason for it other than an arbitrary decision.

Ganondorfs should understand the fact that their win/loss is random.

Pssssst. MMM, I don't know if you've heard, but rudder camping, IDC, 2 minute KO fests and all the like are all in Brawl naturally. Why should you remove those? Essentially, you're hand-picking the rules you want such that an already bad character does worse. Also, not only do Bowser, DDD, and Kirby not rely on their suicide moves to recover, but the opponent has some ability to alter the outcome of the suicide move (which means that if those three die, it's their fault).

But for Ganon, you're going to hinder his recovery more than the game already does? Now our opponents can just sacrifice themselves knowing that if we recover with Gerudo, they'll win near 100% of the time, and if we recover with Dark Dive they can jump into our recovery to kill us, or let us take the RCO lag and punish us to reset this same situation. And all this because you want an already bad character to be worse? Yes, Ganon mains understand that we will more than likely lose with a Ganoncide (as Verm said, 1 in 20 is not a loss for us), which is why the BBR has just hindered us more than they thought they would.

mikeHAZE · Aug 3, 2010

~mjg~ said:
Ahahaha

The call out.

I love these new stages

///sarcasm

dont worry, our new stages will help our friend raziek win a tournament match!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZbbuuBeNTU&feature=related

oh yaeh

Official BBR Recommended Rule List 3.0

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Sleepwalk our lives away.

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Champion

Smash Master

Sleepwalk our lives away.

Sleepwalk our lives away.

Smash Hero

[ɑɹsaɪ]

Smash Hero

Sleepwalk our lives away.

Smash Master

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

[ɑɹsaɪ]

Sleepwalk our lives away.

Charging Limit All Day

Smash Legend

Deleted member

Guest

Charging Limit All Day

Smash Lord

King of Evil

Smash Ace

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Ace

Smash Hero

Smash Hero

Smash Champion

Deleted member

Guest

Smash Legend

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Smash Hero

Smash Hero

sugoi ~ sugoi ~

Smash Lord

Smash Legend

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