Official BBR Recommended Rule List 3.0

[Raziek]

guys calm down, lets take a breather

and watch raziek get ***** by a snake


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3DgN1R-wbg

Wow, go **** yourself Mike. Almost drop sets to more Yoshis kthx. My skill has little relevance, and you cherry-picked one game where I played poorly, instead of all the other ones which were good games.

I lose more respect for you every time you do **** like this, not like you care.

 

[BBQTV]

**** is getting way out of hand

 

[z00ted]

lol welcome to the Brawl community kid.

 

[Mikachiru]

What part of it? My first post to MetalMusicMan was sort of, trying to show how ridiculous his argument was.

Also, I'd appreciate you calling me by my actual name. I have that in two different places here for a reason.

Er... Sorry, Kole. I have a habit of just calling people by their usernames (well, not people I know irl).

Oh. so you were trolling. Not nice, Kole~~~.

guys calm down, lets take a breather

and watch raziek get ***** by a snake


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3DgN1R-wbg

Was this really necessary? ;~;

 

[Kaffei]

Kaffei, there never was a LGL, lol. Otherwise it's been explained already.

ok explain again cus idk where the explanation is

 

[mikeHAZE]

Wow, go **** yourself Mike. Almost drop sets to more Yoshis kthx. My skill has little relevance, and you cherry-picked one game where I played poorly, instead of all the other ones which were good games.

I lose more respect for you every time you do **** like this, not like you care.

LOL i typed in "raziek marth" and this is what i found. you shouldn't be so upset by me posting information i found from an online video data base.


also, you said almost. Almost has never been equivalent to losing.

 

[Kole]

Er... Sorry, Kole. I have a habit of just calling people by their usernames (well, not people I know irl).

Oh. so you were. Not nice, Kole~~~.

lol. apparently that came off as a little harshh. sorry lol

Wow, go **** yourself Mike. Almost drop sets to more Yoshis kthx. My skill has little relevance, and you cherry-picked one game where I played poorly, instead of all the other ones which were good games.

I lose more respect for you every time you do **** like this, not like you care.

I'd say you might deserve it after being a ******** and calling people names. I dunno.

 

[DarkLouis331]

A little liberal, but I think it'll be interesting to try out the new stages.

 

[ADHD]

Raziek, you're lucky I can't watch that link on this phone.

Mike, may you post a link of BPC? Shadowlink? Crow? OS? Umm.. who else? Let's make a big deal out of this somehow, in fact. Let's show how bad the players are that are attempting to lead this community, and why we have to set some sort of skill standard so people know what they're dealing with.

 

[John12346]

Edit: I need to stop impulse posting. Ignore.

 

[Life]

EDIT: l2refreshpagesbeforeposting
EDIT2: Actually, since it bears repeating... you don't have to have a Ninja Turtle named after you to critique art. So what does your skill in SSBB have to do with the validity of your points? If your logic is sound, then "LOL YOU LOST TO X" doesn't really matter to the debate.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

The original idea is to give TO's with no experience or opinion to rely on, a rule set that any person with a copy of Brawl can use.

You guys should put this in the OP at the top in big letters, that will end most of the confusion.

In many people's opinion there is a big difference between Counterpick and Counterpick/Banned. So moving all of those from C/B to Counterpick is huge.

OP still needs more oomph to easily get the point across. I don't want people to miss this point because it could save you guys a lot of trouble.

 

[AvaricePanda]

The main change in this stage ruleset is just all of the previous Counter/Banned stages to now be Counterpick stages. And it's not like many TOs completely followed the last stagelist anyway (Pirate Ship was listed counter but like no tournaments actually had it legal). If you dislike the stages there is nothing stopping you from just not doing what you've already been doing, lol.

 

[Deleted member]

Wow, go **** yourself Mike. Almost drop sets to more Yoshis kthx. My skill has little relevance, and you cherry-picked one game where I played poorly, instead of all the other ones which were good games.

I lose more respect for you every time you do **** like this, not like you care.

Yea almost lose more sets to yoshis mike *throws egg*
<3

 

[AvaricePanda]

also WHY ALL THE SALT

seriously, go outside

go to a tournament

realize that either A) these stages aren't legal
or B) you're just not gonna play on them and many people in your region probably dislike them and won't pick them anyway

because at an actual tournament you aren't worried about some dumb, horrible *** theory-battle argument online about whether a stage is fit for competitive play

and you're more worried about making that bank

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

One thing you guys have to understand is that the voting procedure for stages was broken into four phases. Phase IV, the final phase that a lot of controversial stages ended up being handled in, was months into the process and had a procedural change that resulted in lower turn-out and more "liberal" results.

So, phase 1 was just a straw poll. Any stage that overwhelmingly fell one way was that way with no discussion. This mostly just encompassed banned stages. We didn't need a thread discussing the myriad problems with New Pork City. A few stages, such as Onett, had niche support but didn't get beyond here due to how obvious it was they had very limited support.

Phase 2 handled starter stuff and resulted in what you see. It was pretty clean, and I'm not seeing many problems with the result.

Phase 3 was supposed to be the last phase. The rule was that, if you voted with the minority in phase 1, you had to justify your position or have your vote not count. It was about halfway through this phase that I personally got a lot more involved for those curious, but a pattern began to emerge. The minority positions would go to great lengths to justify themselves, and the majority would just not bother responding. The Distant Planet topic was just sad... I don't in particular blame anyone for what they did, but it was pretty obvious this was broken. This also only resulted in four stages going to solid counterpick (Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, Frigate Orpheon, PictoChat). Every other stage you currently see in counterpick or counterpick/banned was in counterpick/banned which made it a ridiculous rule set that didn't actually recommend anything.

Thus phase 4 was born. Phase 4 required everyone to vote fresh and to give clear, non-stupid reasons for why they supported what they did with simple majority ruling. Note that it was actually pretty lax in what was "acceptable reasoning"; it pretty much just couldn't be something of the form "this stage is gay" or "this stage is obviously fair" (I can give you my absolute word there was no bias at all in vote counting). Fatigue from the long process probably drove down participation a bit, but having to actually explain yourself probably changed the participation too. A lot of members saw the arguments and said things like "I honestly can't say if this stage is fair so I'm abstaining from voting". The topics were good and well reasoned topics with a lot of discussion I should note; it wasn't just a small handful picking stuff arbitrarily.

I do hope people actually give this a shot. We put a lot of work into this list, and personally I feel that it will really help the game. Alpha Zealot has made some really strong points in this topic getting into some of the specifics as per why, but the most important thing is that real play is the only thing that can really provide results and is ultimately the most convincing thing. The Meta Knight fear mongering is nothing more than an assertion without evidence, and I sincerely hope more than anything that some of you guys put your money where your mouth is, hold tournaments with this rule set, use Meta Knight, and show us all how right you are.

Seriously, if you like limited rule sets, you should be cheering at this list. This is your opportunity to play on all these stages, abuse what you "know" is broken, and shut some of us up once and for all while making some money on the side. I would consider myself a scientifically minded individual, and believe me, I would love nothing more than for you guys to take this list and prove how bad it is by real play. My hypothesis is that you won't be able to, but as a scientist wanting his hypothesis tested and as an ardent supporter of a playing to win philosophy, I want nothing more than for some of you to try to prove otherwise. Extra credit if you capture some videos of the tournament play you have that proves how broken these stages really are.

 

[mikeHAZE]

Raziek, you're lucky I can't watch that link on this phone.

Mike, may you post a link of BPC? Shadowlink? Crow? OS? Umm.. who else? Let's make a big deal out of this somehow, in fact. Let's show how bad the players are that are attempting to lead this community, and why we have to set some sort of skill standard so people know what they're dealing with.

lol i was thinking this earlier. People too often forget how inexperienced a lot of the BBR is in terms of gameplay. I'm not saying most of the members aren't knowledgeable, because many are. But experience overcomes knowledge any day.

 

[Mikachiru]

lol. apparently that came off as a little harshh. sorry lol

Oh, don't worry about it Kole. It's probably seems like that because I'm all manners (naturally since I'm a girl) and stuff. But yeah.

I think we should do something about the stage list and not name call and stuff.

Besides the stages catering to MK, can someone give a list for all the stages why they shouldn't be in the ruleset? I'd perfer two-three examples per stages, but anything's fine.

I kinda want this thread to get on topic...

We need a more reasonable and less flamey conversation here...

lol i was thinking this earlier. People too often forget how inexperienced a lot of the BBR is in terms of gameplay. I'm not saying most of the members aren't knowledgeable, because many are. But experience overcomes knowledge any day.

Actually Mike, I think a heathly dose of both would do everyone good...As much knowledge as they have, they should have experience. I'd personally want a bit more knowledge over experience, but they should have both...

IMO, of course.

 

[Raziek]

lol i was thinking this earlier. People too often forget how inexperienced a lot of the BBR is in terms of gameplay. I'm not saying most of the members aren't knowledgeable, because many are. But experience overcomes knowledge any day.

Experience doesn't trump knowledge when your logic is poorly constructed and your points have little backing. I may not be a national-caliber player but I'm by no means BAD, and I frequently attend and host tournaments, so I really don't see where you get off pulling **** like that just because you have a huge ego.

 

[Eddie G]

lol i was thinking this earlier. People too often forget how inexperienced a lot of the BBR is in terms of gameplay. I'm not saying most of the members aren't knowledgeable, because many are. But experience overcomes knowledge any day.

That's what they said when Bush was elected to office. We're absolutely flourishing now. ;D

 

[MarKO X]

this thread is hilarious. great read imo.

it's not like a national tourney in the east will use the same ruleset as a national tourney in the west.
it's not like either of those nationals will use this ruleset.

 

[Life]

Oh noes, KBizzle brought up Bush. There goes the thread.

Spoiler

insert logic about Bush versus economy here

Also:

You don't have to have a Ninja Turtle named after you to critique art. So what does your skill in SSBB have to do with the validity of your points? If your logic is sound, then "LOL YOU LOST TO X" doesn't really matter to the debate.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I kinda want this thread to get on topic...

That won't happen unless a global moderator actually bothers to go through this topic and hand out infractions to every post that was a personal attack, or obvious trolling (like all of those other random topics that got made about the ruleset and were locked: those are obvious attempts to have their trolling comments read and not buried underneath the other comments), to the point they get temp-bans.

Seeing as that won't actually happen, this topic is already toast. Which is a shame, I'd like to see some actual intelligent discussion about the rule set. But there are too many arrogant idiots running around here for that to happen.

I'm going to have to recommend that next time, the BBR doesn't post a topic like this until they can set up a time when the global mods are actually round to, you know, attempt to keep things under control.

 

[mikeHAZE]

Experience doesn't trump knowledge when your logic is poorly constructed and your points have little backing. I may not be a national-caliber player but I'm by no means BAD, and I frequently attend and host tournaments, so I really don't see where you get off pulling **** like that just because you have a huge ego.

you just said you're not bad

then you said i have an ego

lol.

If you're not a "national-caliber" player how can you expect to know so much to decide or debate a ruleset? not being a "national caliber" player means you're as good as around 80% of the rest of the smash community. IMO SBR needs to have higher standards in terms of electing or accepting applications other than just being able to post well and hosting/attending tournaments.

That's what they said when Bush was elected to office. We're absolutely flourishing now. ;D

i lold.


but obama <3

 

[ADHD]

EDIT: l2refreshpagesbeforeposting
EDIT2: Actually, since it bears repeating... you don't have to have a Ninja Turtle named after you to critique art. So what does your skill in SSBB have to do with the validity of your points? If your logic is sound, then "LOL YOU LOST TO X" doesn't really matter to the debate.

Your logic can never be sound if you are inexperienced at the game itself. It's like only knowing how to read the violin part, but you don't know how to play the instrument.

 

[Mikachiru]

That won't happen unless a global moderator actually bothers to go through this topic and hand out infractions to every post that was a personal attack, or obvious trolling (like all of those other random topics that got made about the ruleset and were locked: those are obvious attempts to have their trolling comments read and not buried underneath the other comments), to the point they get temp-bans.

Seeing as that won't actually happen, this topic is already toast. Which is a shame, I'd like to see some actual intelligent discussion about the rule set. But there are too many arrogant idiots running around here for that to happen.

I'm going to have to recommend that next time, the BBR doesn't post a topic like this until they can set up a time when the global mods are actually round to, you know, attempt to keep things under control.

I was really hoping this wouldn't happen. I think we could of came up with some better stuff than this. Not enough good talking here...

I mean, look at this post:

One thing you guys have to understand is that the voting procedure for stages was broken into four phases. Phase IV, the final phase that a lot of controversial stages ended up being handled in, was months into the process and had a procedural change that resulted in lower turn-out and more "liberal" results.

So, phase 1 was just a straw poll. Any stage that overwhelmingly fell one way was that way with no discussion. This mostly just encompassed banned stages. We didn't need a thread discussing the myriad problems with New Pork City. A few stages, such as Onett, had niche support but didn't get beyond here due to how obvious it was they had very limited support.

Phase 2 handled starter stuff and resulted in what you see. It was pretty clean, and I'm not seeing many problems with the result.

Phase 3 was supposed to be the last phase. The rule was that, if you voted with the minority in phase 1, you had to justify your position or have your vote not count. It was about halfway through this phase that I personally got a lot more involved for those curious, but a pattern began to emerge. The minority positions would go to great lengths to justify themselves, and the majority would just not bother responding. The Distant Planet topic was just sad... I don't in particular blame anyone for what they did, but it was pretty obvious this was broken. This also only resulted in four stages going to solid counterpick (Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, Frigate Orpheon, PictoChat). Every other stage you currently see in counterpick or counterpick/banned was in counterpick/banned which made it a ridiculous rule set that didn't actually recommend anything.

Thus phase 4 was born. Phase 4 required everyone to vote fresh and to give clear, non-stupid reasons for why they supported what they did with simple majority ruling. Note that it was actually pretty lax in what was "acceptable reasoning"; it pretty much just couldn't be something of the form "this stage is gay" or "this stage is obviously fair" (I can give you my absolute word there was no bias at all in vote counting). Fatigue from the long process probably drove down participation a bit, but having to actually explain yourself probably changed the participation too. A lot of members saw the arguments and said things like "I honestly can't say if this stage is fair so I'm abstaining from voting". The topics were good and well reasoned topics with a lot of discussion I should note; it wasn't just a small handful picking stuff arbitrarily.

I do hope people actually give this a shot. We put a lot of work into this list, and personally I feel that it will really help the game. Alpha Zealot has made some really strong points in this topic getting into some of the specifics as per why, but the most important thing is that real play is the only thing that can really provide results and is ultimately the most convincing thing. The Meta Knight fear mongering is nothing more than an assertion without evidence, and I sincerely hope more than anything that some of you guys put your money where your mouth is, hold tournaments with this rule set, use Meta Knight, and show us all how right you are.

Seriously, if you like limited rule sets, you should be cheering at this list. This is your opportunity to play on all these stages, abuse what you "know" is broken, and shut some of us up once and for all while making some money on the side. I would consider myself a scientifically minded individual, and believe me, I would love nothing more than for you guys to take this list and prove how bad it is by real play. My hypothesis is that you won't be able to, but as a scientist wanting his hypothesis tested and as an ardent supporter of a playing to win philosophy, I want nothing more than for some of you to try to prove otherwise. Extra credit if you capture some videos of the tournament play you have that proves how broken these stages really are.

Doesn't this amount to anything?

 

[Life]

mikeHAZE: At what point to you set the line for "bad"?

ADHD: Assume for a moment I have very little experience with SSBB. I go on Smashboards for whatever reason and notice a bunch of people complaining about MK's tornado. Logically, I would assume that tornado is overpowered. Then I notice all the threads about "this is how you get around nado" and realize that it can't be overpowered if there's multiple ways around it. So, based on reading Smashboards (and hardly playing SSBB) I would know that tornado is a powerful, spammable, but ultimately non-broken move. Guess what, I just used logic (and reading comprehension) to come to a conclusion without experience.

 

[MarKO X]

its too bad the BBR is just a figurehead anyway.

I'm guessing that the SBR was necessary for Melee to actually bring together the community of competitive Smash players, but now? That's not quite necessary anymore.

 

[swordgard]

lol i was thinking this earlier. People too often forget how inexperienced a lot of the BBR is in terms of gameplay. I'm not saying most of the members aren't knowledgeable, because many are. But experience overcomes knowledge any day.

Er, knowledge by definition trumps experience. When you KNOW something, then its because there is more than plenty of evidence that it is true. Experience is part of evidence, but it is by no means a proof, unlike reasonnings which can be.

See, the problem is, we all have different experiences, even from one top player to another. We cannot accurately determine what is better through experience alone as it is by no way able to be transfered from one person to another accurately so that we can deduce if there are flaws in the reasonnings coming from said experience. There are so many examples in nature of people believing what they experienced only to turn out to be wrong later. Think about Sun revolving around the earth.


But I guess you are just trolling either way.

 

[Chuee]

This thread.........is amazing lmao.
So much flaming.

 

[swordgard]

you just said you're not bad

then you said i have an ego

lol.

If you're not a "national-caliber" player how can you expect to know so much to decide or debate a ruleset? not being a "national caliber" player means you're as good as around 80% of the rest of the smash community. IMO SBR needs to have higher standards in terms of electing or accepting applications other than just being able to post well and hosting/attending tournaments.





i lold.


but obama <3

Skill has nothing to do with being able to decide a ruleset. Most top players are plain ******** when it comes to this.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I was really hoping this wouldn't happen. I think we could of came up with some better stuff than this. Not enough good talking here...

Oh, it was obvious it would happen. The only question was how long it would take. Mods are always extremely slow/reluctant when it comes to infracting. They make a MK topic, with a huge warning about infractions being handed out for flaming. Within an hour, it's an all out flamewar, and at the end of the day maybe 7 infractions were handed out?

Forget "reforming" the BBR, work on teaching the mods what the "infraction" option does first, and how to use it.

EDIT: Nope, it doesn't. It wasn't on the OP, nobody will read it.

 

[Raziek]

you just said you're not bad

then you said i have an ego

lol.

Do you even read? I said I'm not bad, not that I'm godlike. You act like you're god's gift to Marth players.

If you're not a "national-caliber" player how can you expect to know so much to decide or debate a ruleset? not being a "national caliber" player means you're as good as around 80% of the rest of the smash community. IMO SBR needs to have higher standards in terms of electing or accepting applications other than just being able to post well and hosting/attending tournaments.

I'll direct you to the Ninja Turtle quote, as has been pointed out many times. You don't have to be a top 1% player to be knowledgeable about the game and understand how to debate. You still haven't actually provided any legitimate reasoning that the stagelist is bad besides "lols" and personal attacks.

National caliber is also pretty subjective. I'm Top 2 in our region, but I haven't been to a national, so I have no idea how I'd place. If you'd actually watched some of the other games from that set instead of just being a jerk, you'd know that I'm not that bad a player.

READ: NOT THAT BAD. Not saying I'm good enough to win a national, but you still have no place calling these things into question in a debate anyway. Point is, you haven't proved anything with your flaming.

 

[Zephil]

is amazing how fast people post in this thread

 

[mikeHAZE]

See, the problem is, we all have different experiences, even from one top player to another. We cannot accurately determine what is better through experience alone as it is by no way able to be transfered from one person to another accurately so that we can deduce if there are flaws in the reasonnings coming from said experience. There are so many examples in nature of people believing what they experienced only to turn out to be wrong later. Think about Sun revolving around the earth.

this is a good post.


I agree, different experiences will always result in different perceptions, yet my argument is that if one is unable to see the correct situations to be put it, or is allowing themselves to be limited, then how accurate is their perception?

essentially, if i keep getting in car accidents, are cars unsafe or do i just not know how to drive?

 

[ADHD]

I was really hoping this wouldn't happen. I think we could of came up with some better stuff than this. Not enough good talking here...

I mean, look at this post:



Doesn't this amount to anything?

Yes, it was brilliantly done. ADHD has noted *props*

But the stages still suck.

 

[swordgard]

Il argue another time, off to sleep.

 

[MarKO X]

essentially, if i keep getting in car accidents, are cars unsafe or do i just not know how to drive?

maybe cars are only unsafe if you are on the road.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Raziek, you're lucky I can't watch that link on this phone.

Mike, may you post a link of BPC? Shadowlink? Crow? OS? Umm.. who else? Let's make a big deal out of this somehow, in fact. Let's show how bad the players are that are attempting to lead this community, and why we have to set some sort of skill standard so people know what they're dealing with.

It doesn't matter how good they are.

 

[mikeHAZE]

Do you even read? I said I'm not bad, not that I'm godlike. You act like you're god's gift to Marth players.

aren't i?

I'll direct you to the Ninja Turtle quote, as has been pointed out many times. You don't have to be a top 1% player to be knowledgeable about the game and understand how to debate. You still haven't actually provided any legitimate reasoning that the stagelist is bad besides "lols" and personal attacks.

You're knowledgeable about the game in your own opinion. I thought i was good when i was getting 33rd in melee. if you're not able to apply, how much credibility doe you really get?

National caliber is also pretty subjective. I'm Top 2 in our region, but I haven't been to a national, so I have no idea how I'd place. If you'd actually watched some of the other games from that set instead of just being a jerk, you'd know that I'm not that bad a player.

i actually never said you're bad. i said you got *****. And i also only ever used the term "national caliber" because you used it when talking about yourself not being a national caliber player..lol.