#HBC | Dark Horse
Mach-Hommy x Murakami
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2010
- Messages
- 3,739
You shouldn't judge the backroom unless you're in it.
-
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Backroom Reform: Current Topic -> Success?
- Thread starter -Ran
- Start date
Orion*
Smash Researcher
#HBC | Dark Horse
Mach-Hommy x Murakami
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2010
- Messages
- 3,739
How did you see it then?
Damage Points
Smash Ace
We need truly unbiased people in the BBR who are active. I agree that if you don't vote on major issues you should be kicked out.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
I love this thread, and agree with most of this. I backed the "get rid of any non-voters" statement as well, which was generally ignored...
I believe that the actual Brawl Back Room should be split up. Having one organ dealing with all of this is simply ridiculous. The main issue is that it requires every member to know... everything. Or rather, should. I mean, for the Diddy Kong BR discussion thread, where was ADHD? He's the best diddy in the ****ing game, he should've been included for that. However, if you look at how he posts otherwise, it's kind of hard to envision him in the backroom mostly because of how much crap he spouts, especially regarding stages. But what if we split up the backroom? We have one segment dealing with individual characters, one segment dealing with stages, one segment dealing with the rules, one segment dealing with MLG or whatever... what the hell does the BBR even do anyways?
By this method, each member could fulfill their own niche, their area of expertise, well.
And above all of this, we have the backroom heads, which would be people like the MLG Brass, UTDZac, Xyro, Plank–major TOs, basically. People who are consistently running large tournaments. And most of them. At least one per active state, and several per region. Now, why is it so critical that the top TOs are all (or at least almost all) in the backroom?
That's why. They are the ones calling the shots. They are the ones who host the tournaments with the rules the BBR brings out. The BBR has no power right now. The most they can do is lightly nudge MLG, whose tournaments have left the community slightly disillusioned as a whole, I'm sad to say. They can influence newcoming TOs, but most people just make their own rules and stick with it. And it doesn't matter if the BBR says that PTAD or Luigi's Mansion is a legal counterpick. If almost no tournament allows them, then they are, effectively, banned.
I imagine the procedure something like this:
-The rule-making part of the BBR (this would be people like AA, Thinkaman and the like-people who really know what the **** they are talking about; if you're wondering who thinkaman is, he is the co-designer of balanced brawl and with that probably knows more about brawl than anyone here. I'm having trouble thinking of people where I can comfortably say "this person knows a ****ton about how brawl works" without coming off as biased; DMG and OS also come to mind I suppose) creates a potential ruleset.
-They run it past the stage discussion guys to double-check how the standing is on certain stages, make sure they have it all right (these would in turn be referencing what the character discussion groups have to say about said stages).
-They make sure with whatever organ necessary that other rules work (for example, contacting the character discussion groups when talking about removing the rule regarding bowserciding/ganonciding/etc.)
-They send it to the TO overgroup.
-TO overgroup investigates it and gives their thoughts. They interject what they hold to be wrong, talk about what they simply cannot run in their tournaments, and similar things (for example, with the current rulesets, probably 2/3rds of that group would be up in arms regarding certain stages. Without a large-scale agreement with this TO overgroup, the ruleset cannot be passed. This is essentially the exact same effect that the BBR has right now–if a lot of TO's disagree, then it will be pretty much ignored. The main goal of the whole rest of the BBR dealing with the rules in this case is to convince these TOs that this ruleset is correct, and that it will work.
Now. Why the complications? Why require the agreement of a massive number of important TOs? After all, you might say, if the TOs disagree, the same thing as ever happens. The answer is very simple. The goal here is to find one tournament standard for smash. If we can get a massive number of major TOs from all over the place to agree, "this is the way we play smash", then that will be our tournament standard. No more "East Coast uses 10 stages, Nevada uses 7 stages, MLG uses 15, Dallas uses 13, Nova Scotia uses 20", etc. bull****. There will obviously be outliers who decide "**** the BBR anyways", but at least we will have a solid competitive baseline ruleset for:
-The most important regions
-The biggest nationals
-MLG.
Obviously, the content will be different to the one we have right now. I doubt many TOs will jump on the whole "legalize PTAD, Onett, and Green Greens" cruise liner, same as almost none of them will run tournaments without LGLs at least on MK. But it's better than having the rules in various places being all over the place. And one of the biggest things in my eyes is that this allows for the TOs to talk to the experts a lot more; if a TO is dead set on banning something like, say, Pictochat, then people can talk to him and explain why he's being ultraconservative (and probably/potentially wrong). Is it so unrealistic to get most of the TOs of the nation/world to agree on one ruleset/stagelist? I think it could work, and would at least be worth a try.
...and then there's this, part of why I support splitting **** up. Not everyone in the BBR knows enough about every aspect of smash. Nobody should be expected to. Top players have different know-how than TOs, and they both are different from the smash researchers. Why get everyone to know everything when you can get everyone good enough with specialization? After all, asking someone like ADHD to talk about stages is like asking M2K to talk about the MK-Diddy matchup-they may be top players, they may know a ****ton, but you can't expect them to know everything about each topic, and they have their own weaknesses. Of course, you can't use this as an exuse when you're in a niche of the BBR that is all about you.
...and this is the last thing that should change. Everyone posting in the backroom forums: terrible idea. Everyone being able to see what goes on in the backroom forums:
...
Why is that a bad idea?
I agree with the concept here...
The backroom does not exist as a governing body, or dictatorship in any way. Many of you are blowing this way out of proportion.
The backroom does not have "power". We do not force people to use the rulesets we produce. The most serious thing ever done in the backroom was the mk debate, and pretty much a vast majority of the sbr participated for a long time on it.
The ruleset is a suggestion. 99% of you will probably never play on a true sbr rule set. TO's will always tweak the rule set as they see fit for their community or personal needs based on the TO. That being said, people are really freaking out for no reason at all. The ruleset was made very open-minded so a wider range of people can use it how they see fit.
The bbr is not a job. The members do not get payed. The only incentive is love for the game and/or the community. Many people lose interest in discussion or the game after a period of time. Many of the discussions we've had become redundant, and less people participate because things have already been discussed so much. Sometimes people are also just lazy. It happens. I don't really know what all of you expect out of every single member of the bbr. They are not perfect. Even players who seem like they would never lose interest do at some point, even if it's rekindled. Take a large group of people and no matter what you are going to find flaws.
Cut the members some slack. Inactives are removed after a certain period of time, activity always shoots up when we add new members then dies back down again. Many people get tied up with life often and don't have much time to contribute. They are not perfect, and never will be. Disagreeing with our ideals is fine, and we invite you to explore different rulesets, or do whatever you like with your tournaments. We WANT that. The impression that we have any authority at all is silly.
The backroom does not have "power". We do not force people to use the rulesets we produce. The most serious thing ever done in the backroom was the mk debate, and pretty much a vast majority of the sbr participated for a long time on it.
The ruleset is a suggestion. 99% of you will probably never play on a true sbr rule set. TO's will always tweak the rule set as they see fit for their community or personal needs based on the TO. That being said, people are really freaking out for no reason at all. The ruleset was made very open-minded so a wider range of people can use it how they see fit.
The bbr is not a job. The members do not get payed. The only incentive is love for the game and/or the community. Many people lose interest in discussion or the game after a period of time. Many of the discussions we've had become redundant, and less people participate because things have already been discussed so much. Sometimes people are also just lazy. It happens. I don't really know what all of you expect out of every single member of the bbr. They are not perfect. Even players who seem like they would never lose interest do at some point, even if it's rekindled. Take a large group of people and no matter what you are going to find flaws.
Cut the members some slack. Inactives are removed after a certain period of time, activity always shoots up when we add new members then dies back down again. Many people get tied up with life often and don't have much time to contribute. They are not perfect, and never will be. Disagreeing with our ideals is fine, and we invite you to explore different rulesets, or do whatever you like with your tournaments. We WANT that. The impression that we have any authority at all is silly.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
Trust me, the votes being in a majority for MK being banned but him not being banned because it isn't a super majority is irritating... but, that's how it goes. We've often commented no the MK-centric nature of top players and how most votes are self-serving in the past, but there's no real counter to it. Ankoku has at least forced people to post more than "that's dumb, it should be banned" when voting, so it's a start.
As for the "people don't participate", I agree completely. It happens a lot. Sometimes real life gets in the way of course, but in general there are just some people that don't contribute and that sucks. I ranted and raved about this for a long time and people just called me a meanie
But the non-participation we're talking about? Not the same.
The inactivity I hated was people that just consistently didn't do anything worthwhile. They get removed eventually (if they aren't liked), but it takes a while. Plus, it makes some hard decisions. Ally only recently started posting anything worth reading, should he have been removed? What about the countless top players that are, for lack of a better term, inarticulate and slothful?
We've had multiple members in the BBR like Mew2King and ADHD that can't post a coherent argument to save their life, and every single one of their posts can be paraphrased to say "I like this, it helps me" or "that's so gay because it isn't what I want". They use other words, but it's always one of those two things. Always.
We've had multiple members that are really good at their character, but don't understand anything else. People that main characters like ICs or Diddy and don't understand why people might not want Final Destination as a starter or not consider "always starting on battlefield, smashville, or FD" as competitively fair are common, even at high levels of play. Especially at high levels of play, because they get so emotional about the thought of actually having an uphill battle; no one likes a perceived disadvantage.
We've had multiple members that are almost sabotage artists; they vote not just for what helps them, but also what hurts specific characters or playstyles. Some of it is completely corrupt, such as a non-MK saying "MK is too good on these stages, ban them all" hoping that MK will not have any counterpicks strong against their character (fat chance). Some people literally have stated they wanted to ban Green Greens, Norfair, Luigi's Mansion, Jungle Japes, Rainbow Cruise, and a slew of other stages despite the fact that MK is not the best on them. They just know MK does better vs. their character on them, and that's enough. It doesn't matter if Falco would do better vs. MK on Japes, or G&W on Green Greens, or Wario on Norfair, or DK or Olimar on Luigi's mansion. It wouldn't matter because this person mains Diddy or something and they don't get an advantage from those stages. Some of it is less obvious, and is more along the lines of "I think we should ban this stage because camping" simply because they don't like camping. To anyone with a modicum of sense, they've long realized that 99.99% of all complaints about camping isn't "this is boring", it is "this is too effective". If camping was boring and that was the only issue, people wouldn't care. They'd just beat the camper in tourney, say "that was dumb", then move on. Campers would be bottom feeders and the results would speak for themselves. What actually is the case is that campers can pick some stages that are effective, especially in certain matchups, and if someone mains someone like Snake and can't hurt a camping game like Wario's bike-away strategy... well, they can just vote to ban stages.
All that corruption and inactivity is awful, amirite?
Well, it can't be helped completely. But it can be circumvented and at least be made harder. Most of the people that make those corrupted choices aren't actually malevolent demons pulling puppet strings, they're just ignorant and emotional about subjects that are important to them.
We've since forced people to post reasoning in stage discussions, and the tone of the BBR has changed over time to question people based on their posts and to expect answers. Short, one-line posts from a top player that reek of bias are ridiculed, not agreed with. This is a huge change from the past, when a top player could say "that's gay, ban it" and someone might quote it and reply with "agreed".
What this has done is take people that don't know what they're talking about out of the discussion. All those "missing votes"? A lot of them come from players not being experts on the topic. I try to contribute to everything or at least give my opinion, but I don't try to push people in a direction if I don't know anything about a stage or character or whatever. If I'm completely oblivious, I ask questions or just don't participate.
This results in lower than normal numbers. If anything, you should be happy about that. If every BBR member voted on every poll, you'd have tons of votes without backing! Most of the votes you see are backed by discussion and logic, and many people change their votes. We learn from each other and vote accordingly; we can't all be experts on everything.
Well, I'm one of the guys who has done that. If you don't think I am, well, you don't know what you're tlaking about.
The problem is that there are two main camps, and any movement towards one side or the other will result in the other side claiming the BBR is worthless. Reaching a middle ground will result in no one being happy.
But, I don't care what people think and I'll happily piss someone off to do the right thing.
So I can say to myself "what is the RIGHT thing to do? How can we push the metagame down a path that will inevitably improve?"
The answer is pretty simple. Take a huge chunk of clay, then remove things as you see problems. This involves leaving every aspect of the game that is possible, then only removing them when you see serious evidence requiring it's removal. Some people don't like this because "it's obvious" when a stage should be banned, but I disagree.
Look at Distant Planet and Port Town Aero Dive. Those stages have received little play, but are both incredibly unique and help different kinds of characters. They were unused in the past not because they were bad stages, but rather that people just didn't like them. It's entirely possible they will need to be banned in the future, but as of now we don't have any evidence that shows we should. So, they stay.
If you ever disagree with any specific decision, by all means, bring it up! Host tournaments with the stage legal or record tournament matches on these stages (or at least big mms) and articulate the problems you see. That's how progress is made.
Eh, hate to break it to you but the average level of posts by a lot of the people there blow the average level outside out of the water. If we were transparent, the only people that would end up looking like actual dumb-dumbs would be the top players that simply can't articulate their points. Luckily we've been getting an influx of awesome players like DEHF who can impart some awesome knowledge well, but the "top players can't reason" is still pretty common.
Regardless, we don't allow the BBR to be transparent because it wouldn't make any sense to do so. We'd get a million people outside of the BBR harassing us about stuff on a consistent basis and a flurry of posts saying "Why the BBR is wrong about (something)". Hell, we already got that with the MK debate when I brought it into the public.
Besides, we have no reason to. What's gonna happen if we don't? It's not like we're sitting on our laurels and not expecting quality change. We've got a ton of fresh meat that is expecting high quality (like Crow!, who is super amazing) and they beat it out of the apathetic members. It's also easier to articulate things "after the fact" rather than for someone to bring up rudder camping and have a BBR member say "can I see a video? I've not seen it before" and watching people that are used to rudder camping say "OMG THAT GUY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT IT WAS WHAT AN IDIOT OMG".
Also, don't listen to Hylian. We control everything.
Feel free to ask any other questions, I'll answer what I can.
Btw, you should criticize things like this as you see them. While this post has been defensive in nature, I agree with some of your sentiments and have voiced them myself in the past.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
This thread is so dumb. "I don't like the new ruleset so clearly everyone in the BBR is terrible."
Do you have any self awareness at all?
Do you have any self awareness at all?
Really glad to hear this and it's 80% of the reason the 3.0 thread and this thread are so bad.
We've got a bunch of controversial stuff surrounding this game don't we? People are resistant to change.
Basically, it looks like everyone is salty because of two main reasons:
A) The 3.0 stage list
-In time, people are either going to learn to deal with it as with MK. However each region or state decides to deal with will vary, as with the 2.0 rule list. We just have to wait for time to pass to collectively decide if the current rule list(in parts or as a whole) hinder or help the advancement of the metagame for most/all characters. Catering to just a select batch of characters would just prove worthless unless they really want Mk to be gone(lol). Then 4.0 will be made and the cycle will continue.
B) The low number of voting for the stages.
Well this is what this thread is partly about lol.
Basically, it looks like everyone is salty because of two main reasons:
A) The 3.0 stage list
-In time, people are either going to learn to deal with it as with MK. However each region or state decides to deal with will vary, as with the 2.0 rule list. We just have to wait for time to pass to collectively decide if the current rule list(in parts or as a whole) hinder or help the advancement of the metagame for most/all characters. Catering to just a select batch of characters would just prove worthless unless they really want Mk to be gone(lol). Then 4.0 will be made and the cycle will continue.
B) The low number of voting for the stages.
Well this is what this thread is partly about lol.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
So, to clarify. The BBR sees nothing wrong with being the laughingstock of the community, completely ignored by many regions and most nationals, and similar things? What is even the purpose of the BBR in such a case? Nobody pays any attention to it. Hence my suggestion of getting every top TO in the country together and making them form a room over the BBR. They have to OK it either way.
Tier list mainly. Official SWF ranking list too.
And a place to talk about different rules without having to deal with trolls.
-LGL was mainly implemented from discussion from within the BBR, even though the voting didn't go in its favor, the TOs back there read it and experimented and ultimately adopted it. There was also a public topic (I made one, and was inspired by discussion within the BBR).
-Stage strike was implemented by the BBR before anyone else, and now its routinely used even in Melee for which it was never even recommended (though obviously would cross over)
-No coaching rules, no stalling rules, pretty much any non-stagelist rule is almost an identical CP from something whose origins were the BBR ruleset (of the first MBR ruleset).
The issue here is very narrow, even though it seems broad. That issue is, obviously, with the stage list. However any sensible person would realize that a stage list released with just the 12 EC stages would be met with similar furor as a stage list released that includes all the stages we see legal here and there across the country. Hobo runs with Mansion here and there. Japes is legal at a smattering of tournaments still (and is legal for the AiB ladder which thousands of people play and practice on). MLG has Green Green's, Norfair, and Picto legal (Picto is also legal at many tournaments in the West) and many tournaments run with the MLG stagelist for practice. The BBR ruleset with diverse stages encompasses all of these tournaments, whereas if it only listed the 12 legal stages on the EC it would encompass ONLY the EC.
Did not enough people vote? To an extent this is true. Many people felt conflicted so they chose not to vote because both choices seemed equally appealing. The biggest offenders for not voting though are typically the "top players" who everyone also thinks should be the only ones who make the ruleset, so it is sorta ironic that they have a say then choose not to contribute. The system is evolving over time, membership is constantly evolving/changing. Improving the ratio of TO to player (as in more TO's) is a personal goal of mine. If you feel you are a strong TO and aren't in the BBR already send me a PM so I know to recommend you next time members are let in.
Finally, no one is forced to follow the BBR ruleset. Instead of reading the stages as "you must have all of these stages on and they should always be legal" read it as "we don't see any valid reason to ban these stages, you should probably ask your TO why they don't want to play on something like Norfair. If they tell you it is because MK can stall on that level, make sure they are aware it is one of the only levels where it is impossible for MK to stall on and that Smashville is a far worse stalling level for MK than Norfair ever will be."
And a place to talk about different rules without having to deal with trolls.
-LGL was mainly implemented from discussion from within the BBR, even though the voting didn't go in its favor, the TOs back there read it and experimented and ultimately adopted it. There was also a public topic (I made one, and was inspired by discussion within the BBR).
-Stage strike was implemented by the BBR before anyone else, and now its routinely used even in Melee for which it was never even recommended (though obviously would cross over)
-No coaching rules, no stalling rules, pretty much any non-stagelist rule is almost an identical CP from something whose origins were the BBR ruleset (of the first MBR ruleset).
The issue here is very narrow, even though it seems broad. That issue is, obviously, with the stage list. However any sensible person would realize that a stage list released with just the 12 EC stages would be met with similar furor as a stage list released that includes all the stages we see legal here and there across the country. Hobo runs with Mansion here and there. Japes is legal at a smattering of tournaments still (and is legal for the AiB ladder which thousands of people play and practice on). MLG has Green Green's, Norfair, and Picto legal (Picto is also legal at many tournaments in the West) and many tournaments run with the MLG stagelist for practice. The BBR ruleset with diverse stages encompasses all of these tournaments, whereas if it only listed the 12 legal stages on the EC it would encompass ONLY the EC.
Did not enough people vote? To an extent this is true. Many people felt conflicted so they chose not to vote because both choices seemed equally appealing. The biggest offenders for not voting though are typically the "top players" who everyone also thinks should be the only ones who make the ruleset, so it is sorta ironic that they have a say then choose not to contribute. The system is evolving over time, membership is constantly evolving/changing. Improving the ratio of TO to player (as in more TO's) is a personal goal of mine. If you feel you are a strong TO and aren't in the BBR already send me a PM so I know to recommend you next time members are let in.
Finally, no one is forced to follow the BBR ruleset. Instead of reading the stages as "you must have all of these stages on and they should always be legal" read it as "we don't see any valid reason to ban these stages, you should probably ask your TO why they don't want to play on something like Norfair. If they tell you it is because MK can stall on that level, make sure they are aware it is one of the only levels where it is impossible for MK to stall on and that Smashville is a far worse stalling level for MK than Norfair ever will be."
AfroQT
Smash Master
The BBR works hard man cant wait to play on Port Town Aero Dive.
Incase you missed my point:
This kid is a genius.
Incase you missed my point:
Maybe we should open our eyes and realize that we are trying to create a BALANCED stagelist, and you aren't balancing the stagelist giving people ridiculous advantages on stages and PROMOTING character switching.
Crow!
Smash Lord
To contradict Hylian here, the BBR is the de-facto goverment of this gaming community. This game is a big enough deal that it needs one, and we're pretty much the only body set up to possibly do it right now. It's not perfect, and IMO the community deserves better. What it does do is generally good, but it doesn't do enough and doesn't do it in a timely manner.
I wholeheartedly agree that something needs to be improved here. Most of the machinery of the BBR is set up to prevent it from actually accomplishing stuff. Having the "head council," which has the ability to shut down anything they feel like shutting down, consist entirely of people who don't seem to think the BBR either can or should do much of anything (see Hylian's post above for a clear example, AZ and Marc have similar issues though to a lesser extent), contributes to the problem of generally discouraging us from being particularly active.
My opinion is that some democratic element should be introduced. How that would be accomplished and which portions would be democratized I'm not sure, but at the very least the "head council" needs to be selected by the community at large, whether directly or indirectly (say, by having them elected by the BBR which itself were elected by the community).
I wholeheartedly agree that something needs to be improved here. Most of the machinery of the BBR is set up to prevent it from actually accomplishing stuff. Having the "head council," which has the ability to shut down anything they feel like shutting down, consist entirely of people who don't seem to think the BBR either can or should do much of anything (see Hylian's post above for a clear example, AZ and Marc have similar issues though to a lesser extent), contributes to the problem of generally discouraging us from being particularly active.
My opinion is that some democratic element should be introduced. How that would be accomplished and which portions would be democratized I'm not sure, but at the very least the "head council" needs to be selected by the community at large, whether directly or indirectly (say, by having them elected by the BBR which itself were elected by the community).
AfroQT
Smash Master
No what it does do is generally absolutely terrible.
I said this once long ago, but Florida will never follow these rulesets until they make sense.
D
Deleted member
Guest
@Crow! I agree with you that the BBR needs to take a more democratic approach to its members. The public should be able to elect the members of the backroom, rather than let the backroom itself select the people they see fit for it.
With the same head council leading things, no change can ever truly happen.
With the same head council leading things, no change can ever truly happen.
clowsui
Smash Legend
"Until they make sense" is such a broad term -_-;
AfroQT
Smash Master
I just don't understand what the point of the game is anymore.
Am i trying to outplay my opponent in single, uninterrupted combat.
Or am i trying to use the stage against him as much as possible, so that i am victorious.
When i look at any other competitive game (or competitive anything for that matter), i do not see random (or might as well be random) events happening. In street fighter bats do not fly through the air and do damage, even if they may be timed to once every 15 seconds. I don't see courts getting bigger or smaller depending on the city in basketball. As a competitive player it just seems like we should be trying to remove any outside, uncontrollable sources of damage. Even if the event is timed to a point, neither player controls it.
If that is NOT what we are striving for, then im wrong i guess, and in that case turn EVERY stage on. This inbetween bull****...is bull****.
Crow!
Smash Lord
I stand by like 95% of the new ruleset. (There are two annoying tidbits, but I'll talk about that later). Once we finally got our rears in gear, the analysis that prevailed and ended on the final product was indeed that which was more logically sound in almost every case. When the BBR gets to work, and in the cases where a simple majority is allowed to prevail (or at least where a near 50/50 split is able be treated in a halfway manner), the system is generally good.
Study the "new" (i.e. were unjustifiably removed in the past) stages. You'll find that playing on them does generate good gameplay when both players fully understand their options. Of course, two players floundering around in unfamiliar territory will generate dumb games; it's no different from newbies trying out characters they've never seen before.
Study the "new" (i.e. were unjustifiably removed in the past) stages. You'll find that playing on them does generate good gameplay when both players fully understand their options. Of course, two players floundering around in unfamiliar territory will generate dumb games; it's no different from newbies trying out characters they've never seen before.
lordhelmet
Smash Master
So this is why all these fail stages got in. It's not like there's much more to say about PTAD other than "it's gay". I guess you could extend that to say "it's gay and has too many hazards that derail the importance of player skill".
AfroQT
Smash Master
I find that extremely hard to believe.
Infact im just going to say you are wrong.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
But should a stage be banned because you don't like it?
I don't like Yoshi's Island, it should be banned imo.
AfroQT
Smash Master
I think stages should be banned when they effect the outcome of a match to RIDICULOUS degrees.
I mean fighting is forced to be stopped multiple times, cars can kill you at ridiculous percents. Avoidable yes, but dieing at 40%? What if you are hit into one, should the opposing player be rewarded for a single hit THAT much? Are you really going tos ay "thats what you get for getting hit on Port Town Aero Dive"? Do you honestly, 100% truly believe that this stage is going to be about who is the better player? Instead of what character is better on this stage?
Lol it doesnt effect me i guess, yay florida doing what WE want.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
That is a valid argument, but "it's gay" isn't. Not liking a stage does not warrant banning it.
This is better suited for the ruleset discussion, not this thread here.
To answer your question though:
No, it's not 100% about who is the better player - but most counterpicks aren't. In fact, even the starter stages are giving some characters advantages or disadvantages. There are no stages that are completely "fair".
And, personally, I don't see a reason to ban it yet. Should it prove to be tilting matches into an extreme direction - not only theorywise - I would be willing to agree that this stage is not suited as counterpick. There is no evidence to it yet, though, and the stage was only in counter/banned because people didn't like it and simply wanted to remove it because they would've had to learn how to play on it.
AfroQT
Smash Master
Lol...im completely aware that no stage is fair, but counterpicking should still leave the match in the hands of the players (IMO), at no point should the stage even have the ability to DRASTICALLy effect the outcome of a match (that had gone on without that hazard).That is a valid argument, but "it's gay" isn't. Not liking a stage does not warrant banning it.
This is better suited for the ruleset discussion, not this thread here.
To answer your question though:
No, it's not 100% about who is the better player - but most counterpicks aren't. In fact, even the starter stages are giving some characters advantages or disadvantages. There are no stages that are completely "fair".
And, personally, I don't see a reason to ban it yet. Should it prove to be tilting matches into an extreme direction - not only theorywise - I would be willing to agree that this stage is not suited as counterpick. There is no evidence to it yet, though, and the stage was only in counter/banned because people didn't like it and simply wanted to remove it because they would've had to learn how to play on it.
I think its obvious that the stage is...not good...for competitive play, and it should be obvious to almost everyone. If your going to allow this stage, seriously why isnt Big Blue allowed, or some other ridiculous stage. It honestly...is like the same thing.
EDIT:
Oh yeah and the BBR sucks.
Final Destination.
AfroQT
Smash Master
Stage striking.
While you may say ban to Port Town, i cant wait to play on a stagelist with Distant Planet, Port Town, Norfair, and Japes all on the same CP list. Tournaments outside of FL must be insane.
Oh and while FD may be an amazing stage for a certain few characters, at no point in time does FD ever kill the character.
Final Destination is just as available for a CP as FD is and it probably of similar quality in terms of helping specific characters. For PTAD, if I played any character with terrible KO potential, then I'd probably look at the stage as a very good CP option. Conversely if I am a character that gets to live until 200% and has strong KO moves anyways, I'd probably want to avoid the stage like the plague.
Also for the moaning about MK's planking and scrooging, Norfair and PTAD are two stages that virtually make planking/scrooging impossible/non-existent. Meanwhile Smashville gets a free pass even though just about every single tournament dispute over stalling has occurred there (Larry-Dojo at Genesis, Gnes-M2K at Winterfest).
I'm not a fan of Distant planet.
Also for the moaning about MK's planking and scrooging, Norfair and PTAD are two stages that virtually make planking/scrooging impossible/non-existent. Meanwhile Smashville gets a free pass even though just about every single tournament dispute over stalling has occurred there (Larry-Dojo at Genesis, Gnes-M2K at Winterfest).
I'm not a fan of Distant planet.
No offense intended, Crow, but you main two completely inviable characters and are about as relevant to the metagame as I am at the moment: Which is to say, essentially not at all. Whether or not you stand by the stagelist is completely irrelevant to most posters.
AfroQT
Smash Master
im swaggin im surffin
PTAD kills people the same way bullets do. Someone has to pull the trigger.
This:
If I push you in front of traffic, I'm held responsible for doing the pushing. Just like on PTAD, if you get thrown into cars, the opponent KOd you, not the stage.
This:
Is like saying: people don't kill people, guns do!
If I push you in front of traffic, I'm held responsible for doing the pushing. Just like on PTAD, if you get thrown into cars, the opponent KOd you, not the stage.
AfroQT
Smash Master
Obviously, when trying to balance brawl, we are not trying to make it real, or anything like real life. With that logic, almost EVERY STAGE should be allowed, because "hey, i threw you over there bro, that was me, not the stage". We cannot apply quotes like that to the game, and if we ARE GOING TO then like i said, almost every stage should be allowed.
FD never kills the player, while the stage may make it incredibly easy to land a grab, at no point does the stage force a grab on a player. While i can agree with the idea of avoiding the hit that sends you into a dangerous hazard that would result in your death, what i am -saying- is that the dangerous hazard should not be there in the first place, the match (damage and ko's) should be done by the player. When stages are killing people, we are playing a different game. I do not think this is what we should strive for.
(Another EDIT)
While you may say that learning stages is a skill (and i agree), i say that stages should remain passive. I feel that stages should be like a "hometown advantage", as opposed to "landmines just waiting to explode". If you disagree with this, then I HATE YOU ALPHA ZEALOT
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
I recommend everybody to stop arguing and ignore the bbr rule-set. They dont have YOUR best interest in mind(for the most part, they never did). Continue using the MLG rule-set or your own version of a rule-set.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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I had not thought about this angle. I need to keep this in mind. As a falco player, this is always a concern to deal with.
lordhelmet
Smash Master
When did such terrible logic infect the "higher ups" of the community? It's to such a degree that it's pointless arguing with them.
Everything that Afro has said I agree with btw.
Everything that Afro has said I agree with btw.
Are you kidding me? Why not use that same logic to say "Hey let's use items in competitive play, it's the opponent KO'ing me with the items, so it's completely fair."
Technically speaking when stages don't kill people, we are playing a different game. Almost every stage in Brawl has damaging hazards. That is the norm when looking purely at the available stage selection offered in the game. This perception is only changed because the EC got a lot of people to switch to stages that don't really change MU dynamics (except for Brinstar/Rainbow, which there is now a movement to ban on the EC).
Ideally for me, if I were making a ruleset, I would have on (of the controversial stages)
-PS2
-Norfair
-Picto
-PTAD
And not have on
-Green Green
-Japes
-Mansion
-Yoshi thingy
-DP
As I said earlier, the BBR encompasses this ruleset, since the stage list is more of "we think any ruleset that allows any of these stages in any amount is legit". Instead of "you must include all of these stages in your ruleset".
This is actually to an extent true. But I will humor you anyways and just note that items don't spawn equal distant from both players, giving one an unfair advantage in the event both are playing their positions perfectly prior to the spawn window. On PTAD, there is a set pattern and you should know which position you should be holding at all points, and more importantly for all but like 1 or 2 formations there are two safe zones so you don't even have to bother engaging the enemy if you don't want to. Easily enough, even though it falls short of really explaining things: items have some random properties, PTAD has zero random properties.
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
Dont argue with BBR. They dont care nor listen to the public. just make your own rules for tournies and use them. bbr even said so in the thread.
The problem is that the BBR could have alot of potential if it is put together properly, and thats something to strive for
some of the ppl who agree with this list and support it play ****ty characters and it doesn't matter where they play because chances are they're gonna lose lol if anything they want some kind of janky stage to try and tip it in their favor maybe, when chances are that its gonna **** them over even worse
GREEN GREENS FOR LIFE YO
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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- Aug 6, 2008
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- 19,346
Tournament Organizers have the power!
If the BBR expelled everyone but the TOs then all the top players would cry foul for not having their voices heard (ironically as I mentioned before, when it comes to contributing "top" players probably do the least amount).
Additionally are you suggesting we just craft the ruleset for the top 5 or so characters in the game and forget that the rest of the character exist? And you think what the BBR does is absurd?
Poor Game and Watch would get boned at every turn in your ruleset (as he already does on the EC stage lists).
Links can't help that Norfair is one of their best stages.
Additionally are you suggesting we just craft the ruleset for the top 5 or so characters in the game and forget that the rest of the character exist? And you think what the BBR does is absurd?
Poor Game and Watch would get boned at every turn in your ruleset (as he already does on the EC stage lists).
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Stuff like ^ greatly amuses me.
It's like a parent giving a child a plethora of options regarding things they get to do. Some range from awesome to mother of god this is awful and the child is like: "Oh man, that awful stuff is really awful... let me just focus on the awful stuff!" then decides to go "Hey, **** that guy... I'm going to do one of these awesome options!"
And still doesn't realize that it was still in the perimeters of what was suggested. I love people who can't see the forest for the trees. It's utterly, incomprehensibly amazing.
[Juuedit:] That being said, Xyro's legitimacy as a tournament organizer and a player is unparalleled. <3xyro 10nohomos.