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Backroom Reform: Current Topic -> Success?

D

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Back to the current topic, I'm going to agree with Overswarm that a smaller BBR isn't the best idea. The more people you have, the easier it is to delegate tasks and get things researched. I think it's also essential because you have more varying opinions on the discussions at hand.

It's hard to have a small number of people be the voice of so many. More is better in this case.
 

vVv Rapture

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Back to the current topic, I'm going to agree with Overswarm that a smaller BBR isn't the best idea. The more people you have, the easier it is to delegate tasks and get things researched. I think it's also essential because you have more varying opinions on the discussions at hand.

It's hard to have a small number of people be the voice of so many. More is better in this case.
That's fine, as long as the BBR as a whole can kept itself active 100%. That's the main problem here. The BBR can be big, but that does us no good if not everyone in the BBR actually does something.
 
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long forgotten post
I completely agree with the first part of your post.

As for the second one, I feel like you were ALMOST there, but completely missed it. You were talking about how the BBR's list gives you options, but then for the sake of organization, you write that the two stages in Counter/Banned should be moved to either Banned or Counterpick.

The reason why I say you almost had it is because you started talking about options, but in terms of counterpicks, the biggest deciding factors are arguably the Counter/Banned. Counterpicks are the stages that recommended to be legal, and banned stages are the stages that are not recommended by the BBR. Counter/Banned stages are the stages that are borderline on their legality status, and you're giving the TO the option to either take it or leave it. Putting them in either CP or Ban is just saying that the stages are more in favor of whatever group, and it detracts from the "HEY, HEAVILY CONSIDER ME" label, therefore, lessening the importance of the option to ban them.

I hope that came out right. :/

As for the third part of the post, I don't agree. Taking out the timer would be a bad idea. However, increasing the timer if seen fit should be an option.
 

vVv Rapture

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I completely agree with the first part of your post.
Woo!

As for the second one, I feel like you were ALMOST there, but completely missed it. You were talking about how the BBR's list gives you options, but then for the sake of organization, you write that the two stages in Counter/Banned should be moved to either Banned or Counterpick.

The reason why I say you almost had it is because you started talking about options, but in terms of counterpicks, the biggest deciding factors are arguably the Counter/Banned. Counterpicks are the stages that recommended to be legal, and banned stages are the stages that are not recommended by the BBR. Counter/Banned stages are the stages that are borderline on their legality status, and you're giving the TO the option to either take it or leave it. Putting them in either CP or Ban is just saying that the stages are more in favor of whatever group, and it detracts from the "HEY, HEAVILY CONSIDER ME" label, therefore, lessening the importance of the option to ban them.

I hope that came out right. :/
That came out perfectly and I completely understand what you are saying. That makes sense.

I guess my point was leading to the fact that, to me, it seems like they'd end up being Counterpicks instead of Banned, thus still being options in the long-run regardless. But, yes, that would be true and would make more sense in where I was going.

I just figured it would be better for simplicity and flow. They just sort of stuck out at me, which is what you said would be a good thing and it seems like it is since I noticed, but not for the best reasons in my opinion. They were just tacked on like, "well we don't know what to do with them, so here you go," as far as my original opinion was concerned.

But, with that in mind, that makes more sense on the "options" concept.

As for the third part of the post, I don't agree. Taking out the timer would be a bad idea. However, increasing the timer if seen fit should be an option.
Either or. I wouldn't mind either way. I was just trying to make it so that the "overtime" wouldn't end with a time out, so either no time or more time would be fine with me.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Take the best MK (AlmostLegendary)
Take the best Snake (AlmostLegendary)
Take the best Diddy (AlmostLegendary)
Take the best Falco (Almostlegendary)
Take the best Wario (Almostlegendary)

Let them talk, discuss, vote & bla bla together so they can create a new Ruleset.
...
Profit.

fixed that for you.
 
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then you essentially just said the bbr has no purpose LAWL
Is it so inaccurate?

Take the best MK (M2K)
Take the best Snake (Ally)
Take the best Diddy (ADHD)
Take the best Falco (DEHF)
Take the best Wario (Glutonny)

Let them talk, discuss, vote & bla bla together so they can create a new Ruleset.
...
Profit.
You do realize how stupid this is, right? Ally, M2K, and ADHD at least have proven that while they are top players, their knowledge of smash is either ridiculously incomplete, very biased, or both. Dunno about the other two.

Take the best Troll (AlmostLegendary)
Take the best Troll (AlmostLegendary)
Take the best Troll (AlmostLegendary)
Take the best Troll (Almostlegendary)
Take the best Troll (Almostlegendary)

Let them talk, discuss, vote & bla bla together so they can create a new Ruleset.
...
Profit.
fixed that for you.
Fixed that for you.
 

Mikachiru

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Is it so inaccurate?

You do realize how stupid this is, right? Ally, M2K, and ADHD at least have proven that while they are top players, their knowledge of smash is either ridiculously incomplete, very biased, or both. Dunno about the other two.
Larry knows what he's talking about. He'll probably want to stay from these kinda threads... Actually, I'd personally prefer he stays away. Too much idiocy to correct, it's not worth it. :/

But yeah. He's smart. :3
 

Eternal Yoshi

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I remember those. The Mario one was the most egregious example.

Wow.

Just wow, brawl is dying for other reasons. You just want somebody to blame now.
As far as I'm concerned, the game itself deserves much of the blame. Oh Well.

@BPC: IIRC the SBR formed mainly to output a stable ruleset and prevent anarchy in regional rules.

You may not be aware of the power the SBR holds in some areas.
In some areas, they hold almost as much power as a dictatorship would, whether the SBR itself is aware of it or not.
 

xDD-Master

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You do realize how stupid this is, right? Ally, M2K, and ADHD at least have proven that while they are top players, their knowledge of smash is either ridiculously incomplete, very biased, or both. Dunno about the other two.
You know that EVERY human is somehow biased or has holes in their knowledge?

But they are top players, so if they dont know which stages & characters are playable & good nobody should really know.

And even then, in the end, when THEY release a ruleset, there wouldn't be so much talking about "The BBR is sooooo random & trash" bla bla, because if the Elite shouldnt do the rules, who else? Our Classmates? My Brothers & Sisters? Our Parents?
The people who studied Theory Brawl but fails in playing it?

I had an idea when I have choosen 5 different people with 5 different characters, so the whole thing shouldnt get "MK-only" based or something (Or another character)
 

Hater

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End of the day BBR thinks smash is a competitive platformer. I personally think that sakurai is secretly controlling the BBR and i present ruleset version 3.0 as evidence

And the arguement that top players shouldnt have control of the BBR is ********. You don't become good at brawl by luck + chance. The moderator in my state ahs never placed in the top ten of any tourney to my knowledge and our tourneies can have as little as 15 people yet this person can decide which stages im forced to play on ? Seems totally legit to me *sarcasm*
 

AfroQT

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End of the day BBR thinks smash is a competitive platformer. I personally think that sakurai is secretly controlling the BBR and i present ruleset version 3.0 as evidence

And the arguement that top players shouldnt have control of the BBR is ********. You don't become good at brawl by luck + chance. The moderator in my state ahs never placed in the top ten of any tourney to my knowledge and our tourneies can have as little as 15 people yet this person can decide which stages im forced to play on ? Seems totally legit to me *sarcasm*
The moderator of your state determines your stages?
Whoa
 

Dr. Tuen

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I am personally in favor of overhauling the invitation/purging process for BBR. There are a large number of completely inactive people back there. I also am worried about the effect that Overswarm talked about earlier, about how 30 people would result in 8 posters. Even so, I think that a better purge system with a higher capacity would work well.

==

I'm somewhat new to the BBR, so I don't know how it worked before my time there. The system which requires people to back up their opinions and ideas before voting has sparked many debates. I know of a couple of stage discussion instances where my opinion was swayed after a large number of stage and character related facts were brought to the table. I don't necessarily agree with every stage decision that was made, but the the decisions were not made without thoughtfulness.

The wide diversity helps check and balance certain ideas, though I've been hearing some talk of the midwest stage ideal being dominant. I do remember an instance of my use of statistics being completely railed shortly after it's presentation. This shows me that the people here do not just stand by and take information at face value. Ideas are challenged and new ideas are brought forth.

Since that incident, I have reformulated my ideas (about 2 weeks of research found the correct method of analysis), but that's about the time the stage list & rule set discussion started up. People took command (Crow!) and lead the operation and requested that the more important topics of debate remain on track. So I haven't really posted the new results. But again, this displays a good property of this group. It's task oriented and the projects are well lead.

==

So overall, I think the BBR is headed in a good direction. The most positive changes won't be overnight, and I still think we have stuff to work on.

Anyways, that's my piece, I suppose. This thread's discussion quality pretty good, I must say.
 

Overswarm

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ADHD was in, but he couldn't understand why we weren't trying to make the stagelist only for Diddy.
 

swordgard

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ADHD was in, but he couldn't understand why we weren't trying to make the stagelist only for Diddy.
I still don't understand why we don't play FD only, and you can't run away because thats stalling.


Wait, you dare insinuate that would be BIAS?!?
 
D

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So what would the appropriate number of backroom members be?
 

TreK

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ADHD was in, but he couldn't understand why we weren't trying to make the stagelist only for Diddy.
Well then invite someone that doesn't understand why you aren't trying to make a stage list just for Snake, one just for MK, one just for Falco, one just for ICs, ...... one just for Gdorf. Make those 37 people vote, with all their bias, and you'll have a better stage list than this one.
 

swordgard

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It would actually be fair because we have a nice old ruleset to use.

-salty is not best ICs and no one gives you credit-
Lol I don't mind, tbh I have not yet proven myself to be best ics in the world.


Get better at trolling? And how is FD only fair? XD
 

tibs7

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I agree with what hater said on the other page. Mic128 should defs not be allowed to view let alone vote on a brawl ruleset. He's a normal TO, not great at the game, why and how did he get in?

Anyway, swordgard why are you encouraging ADHD to troll more? Just drop it.
 

Juushichi

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---

The posts way below are posts that I really want to address, but I'm going to look at something else really quickly.

---

In terms of having the best players leading the metagame as the main authority for our community, I find the concept to be outright disheartening. I've watched and read various comments from our top players(along with meeting some of them) and I feel like I firmly could say that they really don't give a crap about the majority of the community (which isn't surprisingly not the top percentage of the population). There are select few that would love to see smash as a whole progress (along with it's community) and also be in the top percentage of their characters. These people are rare, rarer than the detractors might think (or care about at all, really).

I'm not going to say that the top of the metagame in general does not have a great source of knowledge. However, I'm particularly sure that they suffer from the same mindset of the top in many other professions and sports: They've focused on what's made them good and their skillset in that specific area. Do I want ADHD to talk about Diddy? Of course. I love hearing M2K talk about MK's character traits. Seeing Ally weigh in on what he thought were Snake's limitations was very enlightening for me, but are any of these players fit to lead (full of only like-minded individuals) a metagame for all people (regardless of the talent level, character choice or whatever)?

Not a chance.

For the sentiments that the elite should make the rules, I point you to various sporting avenues. The leaders of the NBA, NFL, NHL, MLB and etc, I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that they were not the top players in their profession (if they even played at all!). Even people that /teach/ what the top players are learning. Coaches, Coordinators, Staff are filled to the brim with both players that have seen success to people who have never stepped in the stadium since their senior years of high school, but have the mind for the game. There's just a different need of mindset (and a different mindset in general) between those who are playing the game and people who are making the rules for the game. That doesn't mean that top players don't have the same ability, however, they are few and far in-between.

---

Perhaps, the BackRoom as it is, is simply too large. If there were less members [30-50] then it would be easier to maintain activity, and quality of the members there. What are the thoughts of everyone on this? Does the Back Room need to be large 100+ members, or does it need to be a group of the elite few?

Discuss.
Ran, Tos are just as biased. Catering to the players is wrong, cater towards competitiveness instead.
---

Alright, now on to the point that I was looking forward to.

As for the size of the BackRoom, I think a general number of 30-50 people is actually a good idea for the general. Personally, I think having dedicated branches (and go-betweens of those branches, such as our wonderful admin AA) covering different areas: Stages, Characters, etc, etc is a great idea (of course other members of the back room could fill in as necessary). Ideally, this would work out: There are people that are focused on their tasks at hand and then check in on a whole with the rest of the back room members. That way there are focuses on particular characters/stages and testing of various things.

Logistically, for a couple of reasons... I don't think that this is going to work. As OS has stated and I think others have eluded to, there is just no way for people to enforce activity within those avenues. Players come and go, have life troubles brewing up and sometimes just lose interest. Unfortunately, this isn't a job (as much as I would love for it to be, lol) and there's not much to stop turnover of it's members. Then you have particular things like characters whose metagames have drastically slowed/stopped for various reasons (Mario, Jigglypuff, Lucas are all characters I can name off the top of my head) and that hurts the competitive community overall. Even if they're not considered viable at top levels of play.

I think having a definitive criteria for it's members to meet for what the BackRoom is supposed to represent helps out the back room of a whole. The idea that you must discuss your opinions in a meaningful is wonderful and helps your peers clarify your position and offer their own input. Keep doing that, it really helps. As for the bridge between the back room and the community, I have to say that I'm not really sure what can be done for that. Visibility is something that as an invested (see: in the community of SWF's as a whole) person like me wants to see, but I'm not completely sure if the community as a whole is able to handle. That's just my opinion and could very well be false, but it's what I think anyway.

To bridge that divide, I think something creative is going to have to happen.

Overall, I am liking the attitude of the backroom's vocal representatives and their willingness (again, in my opinion) to consider the needs of the community both competitive at the top of the community and not, their willingness to address the (reasonable) complaints and reply to them in meaningful ways, and also their stance that things should really be tested and shown. Sucks that the BRoom is sometimes painted out to be the bad guy. Otherwise, there are kinks that need to be worked out on the whole, but for where we're at and where we've been, I say good job.

Just my two cents.

[Edit:] Hopefully, we continue to have the healthy discussion we've had in this thread so far instead of particular attacks at a person's credibility. This has been a good read and a great source of new information/thoughts so far.
 

Kewkky

Uhh... Look at my status.
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I personally wouldn't mind being spammed up by people when they see what I vote. It would certainly make me feel like a leader! One gets used to disses and flames eventually in life, and it's better to prove the flamers wrong while still being nice, because then they won't know how to act. ;) [+1_to_self_esteem]

But that's just my opinion. If you guys want transparency on the BBR, you're all going to have a lot of work to do from now until the day it happens (which will probably be never, given the amount of work and the mountains you're gonna have to move). How will you guys start? Asking politely and asking with flames both aren't working, so... What's your next plan?
 

Kewkky

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You'd rather hinder diddy to help mk right ?
Ask ADHD why he's not in there anymore. Since he used to be and now he's not in the BBR and he experienced what he did because of his own actions, I'm sure he can give you quite a charming story.
 

Juushichi

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You'd rather hinder diddy to help mk right ?
MK doesn't need the help. He's already the best character in the game. Diddy shouldn't have or need the benefit of having a stage list in his favor. Before you state that this one is in MK's favor, I want you to take a good hard look at things. If you can't realize that Meta Knight is "tha bess" on any stage list potentially feasible because of his multitude of options on any give stage (without buffs), I implore you to learn more about this game in general.

biased people : BBR's way to say 'someone that disagrees'.
Avoiding the impression that you seem (I may not know for sure) unable to see the other side of the equation, there has been and will be discussion with people that don't agree with the ruleset. Even people that are ambivalent towards the rule set in general have particular grievances against it and have argued against it. Loaded comments and generalizations typically aren't supportive of things in the long run.

What I think people fail to or avoid trying to realize is that this recommended ruleset is as customizable as they want it to be.

---

Oh yeah, I've got a small thing to pick at about swordgard's statement about TO's catering.

TO's should use both. Their players are the lifeblood of their communities and should have a valid voice in their area, but the TO should keep his MO as much as possible. There's a balance that should be struck between them.
 

TreK

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Thanks for clearing things-that-I-understand-enough-to-troll-about up.

btw,
Juushichi said:
What I think people fail to or avoid trying to realize is that this recommended ruleset is as customizable as they want it to be.
I also saw that here ~
.Joel said:
If people are blindly following this ruleset, without thinking about it, then it's their own fault.
It disgusts me, because it's an opinion/position that is most certainly going to hurt the American smash scene.
I mean your country is 51 states if I recall. You can't expect to have decent national tournaments if you have 51 vastly different rulesets : people from 50 states would have to adapt to the hosting state's ruleset, or even worse, the TOs would have to do the BBR's job and adapt the ruleset by themselves.

Letting that happen just wouldn't be healthy. But it's going to happen anyway, because when the BBR was supposed to coordinate the local smash scenes, what it did was that ruleset, that is clearly not intended to be universally adopted.

If the Brawl Back Room, in its actual form, is going to produce things such as this ruleset, and be deeply convinced that they're doing something right, then there is something that indeed needs to be fixed.

/Is from Europe, that will not change its ruleset.
 

Juushichi

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I have to say, you make a very convincing point.

Again, ideally the rule set standard is something that should be universally adopted for the major tournaments in order to clear up confusion and give something static to work towards (for those playing at the national or large regional level). I'm wondering what your thoughts are on how this could be logistically implemented. There's the obvious, of course: "Host it at the larger tournaments, ffs." But I'm interested to see your opinion of the work leading up to that point.
 

Crow!

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Ideally, this ruleset would be universally adopted. It is a good ruleset, it just makes some "hard" (i.e. against the present groupthink) choices that some people are going to be scared to try at first. With any luck, as the braver / more critically thinking TOs try it out and meet success, adoption of this set will expand over time.

Or, after a few disastrous tournaments, we could prove to be epically wrong. That's possible too, but it's not what we anticipate.
 

AfroQT

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. It is a good ruleset
No, it's not. Just because a bunch of people who THINK they have a superior "knowledge" of the game voted for it, doesn't mean it's good.

Actually, if this ruleset wasn't a complete piece of garbage, maybe people wouldnt be coming out of no where suggesting to reform the BBR.
 

Raziek

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You realize plenty of people raged about the last ruleset too, right? Especially relevant since, you know, they're practically the SAME.

You can't please everyone.
 

AfroQT

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You realize plenty of people raged about the last ruleset too, right? Especially relevant since, you know, they're practically the SAME.

You can't please everyone.
Im sure the same people did, and now, theres more.
I know i didn't care about the last ruleset.

Oh and they definitely weren't calling for a backroom reform, though im sure quite a big deal was made.
 
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