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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

Fortress | Sveet

Fortress | Sveet

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I can't say I understood everything JPOBS said word for word, but if hes talking about what i think hes talking about, then i agree.

Something about we have historically chosen what is "neutral" and "CP" and "banned" and it doesn't really matter what falls into what category as long as were consistent (in so many words)
 
JPOBS

JPOBS

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yes basically

i didnt mean for it to be so long winded but i kept thinking of stuff to say, and my engrish sucks.
 
Winston

Winston

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Re-asking since it got lost in the torrent of Fox board posts:

What are the most efficient ways of comboing Falcon off a grab? It seems so basic, but most of the obvious things (namely uthrow usmash and uthrow nair) are either escapable or don't lead to anything with proper DI.

If you guys have percent-specific stuff that covers all their DI options that'd be great. Stage position-dependent stuff is good too. Thanks
 
FoxLisk

FoxLisk

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Gustav:

first off, always uthrow. At very low percents on no DI, I think you can shine-usmash (like, shine, JC usmash, not waveshine obviously). I'm not sure when utilt starts working. At slightly higher percents you can utilt on no DI and tech chase (with regrab or upsmash or shine if you want). I'm pretty sure you can tech chase reactively, too. This is until... I'm not sure when,b ut like in the 40s. After then I think you're stuck going for uthrow nair. On no DI you can still uthrow nair but I find it easier and more consistent to upsmash. At some point usmash stops working and you uthrow uair on no DI.

With DI away at mid-high percents I think you can land uthrow -> weak nair which, as on most characters, has tremendous combo potential. You could try uthrow -> weak bair, that would probably work.

If he's gonna land on a platform, I would say in general waveland techchase... thats usually the best way to keep racking up damage on someone who lands on a platform. regrabbing is going to be harder to combo off of from a platform, though, so I'd probably just usmash.
 
Fortress | Sveet

Fortress | Sveet

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One thing i've learned from comboing falcons is that you never have to look for the guaranteed, but instead cover as many options as possible. For example, falcon has the choice of jumping out of your uthrow shenanigans. I always sh nair after uthrow. Why? Because if he jumps I will be more than ready to follow him and make him lose his stock.

For marth when he DI's the uthrow at low percent, I don't believe sh uair is a true combo. IIRC you'll be hitting with the very very tip of your feet so the first hit will knock them out with no SDI required. I would probably just sh nair chase, simply because its very quick, marth doesn't have a break move that could work there, and if marth jumps you'll just track him down with the hunter inside you.

Basically, I like giving my opponents the option of damage. Fall into my nair and get combo'd off of it? Or jump and take all the risks associated with that?
 
JPOBS

JPOBS

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Sveet said:
IIRC you'll be hitting with the very very tip of your feet so the first hit will knock them out with no SDI required.
Click to expand...
im not sure i understand this? you're saying the upair wouldnt connect with the strong hit because only the first hit would land and they would get out without SDI? If thats what you're saying, i can say that on many occasions i've accidentally sh upair'd marth when i meant to full hop, but landed the strong hit and combo'd into many moves. Which is why i was wonderng if its a "true" combo to do this intentionally. but maybe thats not what you're saying and im confused.
 
KirbyKaze

KirbyKaze

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I tend to feel there are better U-throw --> stuff in the middle --> regrab style combos.

Trying to link things with SH Dair on an airborne opponent is usually asking for trouble.
 
Sinji

Sinji

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KirbyKaze said:
U-throw U-tilt Uair is really underrated.

So is U-throw Uair.
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thats tru. it is underrated cause its an old technique but still affective. for example, dsmash as an effective edge guard but underrated cause its an old edge guard.
 
EWC

EWC

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When you up throw cfal at super low percents you don't really have too many options. If he di's I think he can either jump or land before you can hit him with anything, except possibly ftilt. If he doesn't di the throw, then you can hit him with shine or jab, but nothing else will combo.

If you do upthrow shine, you can do either upsmash or nair or bair directly out os shine and have that combo. You can also waveshine and hit them with a jab or another shine before they hit the ground (so it still combos). I think that if you're quick enough, upthrow waveshine grab will work; They will land in between, so it wouldn't be a legit combo, but your grab should come out before they can get invincibility off a buffer roll/dodge. Most of this also works if you replace the shine with a double shine.

Probably not worth the effort though; It's easier to just chase their tech/jump.
 
trahhSTEEZY

trahhSTEEZY

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"When you up throw cfal at super low percents you don't really have too many options. If he di's I think he can either jump or land before you can hit him with anything"

isn't the process that if falcon doesn't DI the upthrow at early percents he can jump out of it, but if he does DI it he can only move and not jump
 
EWC

EWC

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Nope, he can always jump before he hits the ground, no matter how he di's. It's pretty tight if he the throw is at zero and he di's though.
 
unknown522

unknown522

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JPOBS said:
when marth DI's your uthrow at super low percents, does short hop uptair legitmiately combo?
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nope. Doesn't work between 0-10%

omgwtfToph said:
I'm of the opinion that FD is great for Fox vs Sheik. Why would you ban FD vs Sheik? Techchasing is no different on that stage, and I think platforms make that matchup more advantageous for Sheik in almost every way.
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- no platforms to maneuver around her.
- She can wall easier, because you can't go around her.
- Easy for her to trap you at the edge. With no platforms to move around her, she can just stuff you.
- The stage is huge, for tech-chasing
- harder to combo her (unless they DI wrong), or pin her down because of lack of platforms.
- free knockdowns for sheik at all times, with no platforms to combo-break her, or for you to edge-cancel.
- etc.
 
JPOBS

JPOBS

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EWC said:
-shine stuff- They will land in between, so it wouldn't be a legit combo, but your grab should come out before they can get invincibility off a buffer roll/dodge
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nah, if they buffer it, once they touch the ground, you'll never land the grab before they get away.
EWC said:
Nope, he can always jump before he hits the ground, no matter how he di's. It's pretty tight if he the throw is at zero and he di's though.
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being "able" to jump doesnt mean he'll get away though, or that a move wont combo.

Fr example, on No DI, at 0%, the falcon can try to jump, but he wont get out of the range of your upsmash, and it will still 100% combo from upthrow. But if he just falls instead, and techs, your upsmash will miss because invincibility frames from the tech will start before your upsmash does.

So just because he can "always jump" doesnt mean the moves wont combo depending on their range/speed.
 
Brookman

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Sinji said:
thats tru. it is underrated cause its an old technique but still affective. for example, dsmash as an effective edge guard but underrated cause its an old edge guard.
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get edge-tech-wall-jump-back-aired, noob.


I say you let falcon jump out of your up throw, then you nair him 15 times and do the same thing to his next stock.
 
KirbyKaze

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D-smash is awesome at super low percents where they can't tech it. And if you do it offstage sort of far vs some recoveries (Illusions, notably) so they don't reach the edge and can't tech it.

Otherwise I agree with brookman in that other techniques that aren't so techable have obsoleted it.
 
EWC

EWC

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JPOBS said:
nah, if they buffer it, once they touch the ground, you'll never land the grab before they get away.
being "able" to jump doesnt mean he'll get away though, or that a move wont combo.
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Actually I think you should be able to. I'm not 100% certain, as I haven't tested this in frame-by-frame, but my reasoning is as follows:
A buffered anything will leave a minimum of 3 frames frames of vulnerability before actually giving invincibility frames (down dodge is invincible on frame 3, and buffering will cause your shield to go up for 1 frame before starting the dodge).
This means that your grab box can come out as late as 3 frames after they hit the ground and still get them before they can dodge. Given that upthrow waveshine jab will hit them before they land, and grab is 5 frames slower than jab, it follows that upthrow waveshine grab will beat a buffered dodge so long as the total margin of error on the former is at least 2 frames. I'm pretty sure that it is, because I can make upthrow waveshine jab give consecutive hits in training mode quite consistently, and I know my waveshines aren't frame perfect.
All this says is that upthrow waveshine grab probably can beat buffered dodges. That doesn't mean it's easy to execute, or that it's a good idea, simply that it's possible.


JPOBS said:
Fr example, on No DI, at 0%, the falcon can try to jump, but he wont get out of the range of your upsmash, and it will still 100% combo from upthrow. But if he just falls instead, and techs, your upsmash will miss because invincibility frames from the tech will start before your upsmash does.

So just because he can "always jump" doesnt mean the moves wont combo depending on their range/speed.
Click to expand...
When I say "combo", I mean "consecutive hits in training mode". You can certainly do all sorts of things to cover the various options that falcon has to escape your grabs, but these aren't what I'm referring to when I say something won't combo.
 
Brookman

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If we're just brushing it off as nerves then its not even worth discussing.



Is this the first time they ever met in tournament??


To me it seems like lucky doesn't know how to handle PP's lasers and basically relinquishes stage control completely.


The very opening moves, right up until lucky gets shined he is doing ok. He gets a grab and then, for whatever reason, doesn't Chain Grab. On FD, the most neutral of all stages, this CG should be Bread and Butter . . and steak. . . and water, and ice cream . . I think you get my point.

immediately after he eats some shield pressure and gets hit by shine again ( with no DI - I know this is hard in practice)

PP gets a dirty jab reset, up throw no combo. lucky lands and goes for a shield grab but eats a shine - how many of you dash dance for shines - eats a down air, techs @ the edge toward center stage (isnt this one of the biggest newby habits ever??)


One stock down. so far it really looks like lucky has nothing vs. falco (or at least PP) on FD.

lucky makes no attempt to even attempt to use his invincibility, but he comes back and PP is cornered @ the edge. Lands a powershield then dashes away and is tooo far to capitalize on the whiffed grab. Luck lands another grab and again, no combo, no CG.



battery dying, will continue later :]
 
trahhSTEEZY

trahhSTEEZY

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yeah i don't get the no chain-grabs, do people see it as disrespectful at higher level or something?

it's not like PP shoots an un-normal amount of lasers compared to others, it shouldn't be anything new for lucky..he missed so many easy edeguards, i saw blatant forward b's he didn't punish, and saw some simple time where pp would up-b so close without getting the ledge-grab and lucky would just wait. I think PP took control of edgeguards where lucky kept failing. can't get the kill, keeps getting combod.

maybe he felt more comfortable with platforms that day. sometimes falco can take good control of FD even if fox can work it. he does when the set on the next 2 stages afterall. What's your opinion on what he fixes from there on to win it?
 
omgwtfToph

omgwtfToph

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yea lucky doesnt chain grab and he seems to think that uthrow nair is the end-all solution to uthrow combos with fox.... he's really weird lol.

i think lucky just played like ****, and once he started losing he felt like he had to "catch up" which made him get ***** even harder
 
GOD!

GOD!

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I asked a really good fox player why he didn't chain grab (apparently when I mention a name I'm namedropping???? lol f u pbnj :))

and he said he got just the same damage doing usmash so why chaningrab?

Lucky was trying to follow his tech soooooo:
-He wanted to get back match control by controlling PP for a while?
-He was waiting for PP to tech towards the edge and then he was going to uthrow>bair, maybe go for a downsmash, shine, etc?

He probably wanted to get him offstage as fast as possible.

That looked like his game plan for the other two matches in the set.

Chaingrab isn't as bread and butter as people make it out to be, cause you get to like 40% and then you bair or something? or they slight DI, you mess up, get shined and take >20%.
 
Fortress | Sveet

Fortress | Sveet

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if someone (or at least me) doesn't reply to a specific part of a post, they probably agree with it or don't have a refutation for it (or dont care...)
 
omgwtfToph

omgwtfToph

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GOD!, I'm fine with you trolling but please don't try to mislead people with inaccurate information. fox's vs. space animal chaingrab works until 50% with no DI, and if the opponent DI's to the side each time you can literally chaingrab until death (chaingrab to 90%, pummel, uthrow running usmash).

ALSO, utilt combos into another utilt until about 75%. try it in training mode. uthrow utilt an opponent that doesn't DI and try to continue utilting them. utilt will combo into itself until about 75%. then you can bair or something and boom they're nearly at 90%, with a chance for an edgeguard (50-50 if you set it up right). if you find a way to work a soft bair in there, you can even do soft bair into usmash or dash attack, or soft bair into fsmash sometimes. utilt into dsmash combos sometimes too, silent wolf had this weird dsmash phase where he would get dsmash out of the most random situations as a combo finisher and it ***** lol

edit:
uthrow triple usmash is pretty good on FD (you have to techchase for the 2nd usmash, but usmash comes out in 7 frames - as fast as a grab - so it's very doable on reaction), but the problem is that after the third usmash the combo is usually over with no chance of followup. plus, you get less damage than a chaingrab.

also, if they DI the chaingrab to the ledge, you can mix it up with uthrow dsmash, uthrow shine (off the stage), bthrow gimp or whatever (fits the theme of lucky "wanting him to get off the stage as soon as possible"), and even dthrow off the ledge lol. there's a bunch of mixup options that are all pretty hard to react to, so you might as well chaingrab. most opponents don't DI to the ledge anyway haha
 
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