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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

EC_Joey

EC_Joey

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Sveet said:
but against anyone who is spacing on your shield, your most ranged attack out of shield is wavedash->shine.
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If someone's spacing on your shield, you wouldn't want to wavedash towards them unless they're in some kind of lag (first thing that comes to mind is Marth's fsmash). Wavedashing in puts you at a severe disadvantage unless you know for a fact that they won't punish it.

It's a far safer option to wavedash back or roll away to get to a neutral position.
 
Fortress | Sveet

Fortress | Sveet

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you obviously can't do anything OoS safely unless the opponent hits your shield. If marth fairs your shield, if falcon spaces a nair on your shield, if sheik dsmashes your shield, ect ect ect you can wd OoS shine -> combo. Wd->shine beats a LOT of spaced moves people choose to do on your shield.
 
Lovage

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omg is that ec joey!!!!

<3!

edit:

Sveet said:
you obviously can't do anything OoS safely unless the opponent hits your shield. If marth fairs your shield, if falcon spaces a nair on your shield, if sheik dsmashes your shield, ect ect ect you can wd OoS shine -> combo. Wd->shine beats a LOT of spaced moves people choose to do on your shield.
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and lol @ using wd shine oos against falcons nair or marths fair
 
Fortress | Sveet

Fortress | Sveet

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w/e maybe not those situations. it was just something i made up right now. i dont really think of the game in exact terms like that, i mostly just have a sense for how many frames are available before they can do something else, and in many situations where people think they are "safe" because they space something outside your bair/nair range you can just WD->shine them.
 
omgwtfToph

omgwtfToph

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a more practical example than trying to wd shine oos Marth's fair on your shield would be, a lot of samus's attacks. First hit dsmash on your shield, for example, or even dtilt.
 
Lovage

Lovage

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omgwtfToph said:
a more practical example than trying to wd shine oos Marth's fair on your shield would be, a lot of samus's attacks. First hit dsmash on your shield, for example, or even dtilt.
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ab
so
lutely

wd shine oos is really good against a lot of samus moves
although for most of them you have a small window to get the shine out before you get shield->up-b'd

i recommend it against
-dsmash (first hit only)
- dtilt (when not super spaced)
- fsmash (when not super duper spaced)
- ftilt (when spaced poorly but still outside usmash oos range, very small window so use with caution)
? utilt (makes sense in my head but i can't remember really using it)

btw a nice trick here is to wd oos at them and then buffer a roll back if you think you aren't gonna get the shine out before they shield, the samus is very likely to up+b out of habit even tho you rolled before you were gonna shine
 
#HBC | Mac

#HBC | Mac

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wd out shine def works, and against like every character

but you have to predict the dash away after the aerial, which isn't too difficult since there are alot of situations where the opponent wants to dash away

but if they shine/do any move you dont have the frame advantage so you lose and will just get hit
 
omgwtfToph

omgwtfToph

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Lovage said:
btw a nice trick here is to wd oos at them and then buffer a roll back if you think you aren't gonna get the shine out before they shield, the samus is very likely to up+b out of habit even tho you rolled before you were gonna shine
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oh wow, i gotta try that. ty
 
JPOBS

JPOBS

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tru, in theory if you can waveshine grab, then u can waveshine upsmash.

both require a run, a jump cancel, and come out on the same frame, with upsmash having more range.

except if you're a bit slow, upsmash can be shielded. meh
 
RaynEX

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You'd be surprised at how easily you can combo a Marth off a waveshine usmash at low percents. At about 20 before the shine, you can get so many hits in after the usmash.
 
Winston

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omgwtfToph said:
waveshine to grab is way more practical in that matchup anyway though...
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RaynEX said:
You'd be surprised at how easily you can combo a Marth off a waveshine usmash at low percents. At about 20 before the shine, you can get so many hits in after the usmash.
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This makes sense to me. I've always felt that waveshine uthrow uair is the safest punish, but not the highest reward one, since if Marth does the DI the throw away -> DI the uair in the other direction (or succeeds in smash DIing it) then you only get one uair off.

A non-grab launcher sets up for nair chains and the like, possibly involving platforms.

Couple of questions:

At low percents, is there a way to do the uthrow uairs so that they can't smash DI out? Or can they always get out if they're good at it?

Do you guys think mixing in waveshine -> sh nair -> stuff is practical? I mean infrequently enough so that it's unlikely they'll be holding down. I feel like a non-cced nair is the best combo starter Fox has vs Marth.
 
Pengie

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For the Up throw -> up air: I know that it is possible to space/time your up air so that only the second hit connects, but I haven't really tried practicing that too much to give any details on it.

As for your other question: sometimes I'll throw out a SHFFLED Nair -> turn around up tilt which leads to some good follow ups on Marth. Usually a few more nairs/bairs, or you could string together up airs if they're at some mid percents.
 
mers

mers

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Gustav Wind said:
At low percents, is there a way to do the uthrow uairs so that they can't smash DI out? Or can they always get out if they're good at it?
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The uair can technically always be SDId, but if you can get it lined up so you do it almost perfectly in the center of their character, they have to move the farthest to avoid the second hit. Also, if they are getting out by SDIing to a particular side consistently, hitting them on that side is a good mixup.

However, seeing as you have to move so quickly to get the uair to combo, doing these things is hard.
 
RaynEX

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Gustav Wind said:
This makes sense to me. I've always felt that waveshine uthrow uair is the safest punish, but not the highest reward one, since if Marth does the DI the throw away -> DI the uair in the other direction (or succeeds in smash DIing it) then you only get one uair off.

A non-grab launcher sets up for nair chains and the like, possibly involving platforms.

Couple of questions:

At low percents, is there a way to do the uthrow uairs so that they can't smash DI out? Or can they always get out if they're good at it?

Do you guys think mixing in waveshine -> sh nair -> stuff is practical? I mean infrequently enough so that it's unlikely they'll be holding down. I feel like a non-cced nair is the best combo starter Fox has vs Marth.
Click to expand...
First question:

Pengie said:
For the Up throw -> up air: I know that it is possible to space/time your up air so that only the second hit connects, but I haven't really tried practicing that too much to give any details on it.
Click to expand...
That's more or less what I was going to say. The most you can do is try to uair REALLY fast and get only the second hit. You could also try to aim the uair so it doesn't hit them directly. It's easier to explain if I use this model:

789
456
123

-Fox attempting to uair (second hit only) is '5'.
-You'll have great success in this attempt if Marth is hovering in either '7' or '9'.

I support full-hop FF auto-cancellled bairs to counter SDIing.

At high percents:

-it yields offstage silliness
-has the potential to kill if they were set on SDIing the uair. Now they've just d.i.ed the bair REALLY badly
-Combos into lasers

At low percents:

- it usually leads to combos. (i.e. utilt, more bairs, uair)
**-even if they d.i. away at low percents, you can still chase them from below and trade with usmash, CC to something, or shield grab to continue pressure. This is my preferred follow-up of choice if they d.i. away and utilt won't combo.

Second question:

The mix-up and payoff is not worth it. If he happens to be CCing and you get grabbed even once, you're screwed. Against other characters it might be a good idea, but against Marth specifically, where our entire game plan is to not get grabbed - its a very risky mix-up. If you just go for uthrow uair, you get good damage and good positioning. If he tries to attack you as he's falling and misses...that's another grab. If you land your nair you get what, 3 extra hits if they have decent d.i.?

The advantages you get from uair are much better. Unlike this nair mix-up its uses go far beyond simply damaging your opponent.

ALTHOUGH

if you go for a low nair after the waveshine it would be a safe follow-up. Unfortunately it would not combo. Also, why would we ever give up free hits on Marth for a late nair mix-up?
 
Winston

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Thanks for the advice. Now that I think about it, they can just hold the C-stick down without sacrificing their normal DI to make the mixup not even a mixup.

I still think sideways combos are higher reward than vertical combos since they have the potential to bring the marth to the edge into a shine finisher into an edgeguard. I'm not sure how to consistently make the opportunities for them though without exposing yourself to cc grabs.
 
RaynEX

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Gustav Wind said:
Thanks for the advice. Now that I think about it, they can just hold the C-stick down without sacrificing their normal DI to make the mixup not even a mixup.

I still think sideways combos are higher reward than vertical combos since they have the potential to bring the marth to the edge into a shine finisher into an edgeguard. I'm not sure how to consistently make the opportunities for them though without exposing yourself to cc grabs.
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I can see where you're coming from. But you have to understand that combos going to the left or right are susceptible to d.i. and platforms. There are a plethora of variables that can interrupt a seemingly good horizontal combo. If you combo most characters (Marth especially) vertically, d.i. and platforms are only a minor hindrance.

Pengie said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_U_uD5ewow#t=2m06s

There's a clip of Fox doing Up throw - Up air while only hitting with the second hit. It's on Puff but the same principle should apply to Marth and any other characters.
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Puff is thrown higher than much of the cast by Fox's uthrow. In certain match-ups its not possible to hit the second hit only and still have it combo. Most people get the second hit on Jiggs accidentally anyways. Though it is possible, there hasn't been much discussion on actually aiming for an incomplete hit.
 
omgwtfToph

omgwtfToph

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you don't think about where you're aiming the uair lol

you can make it so the 2nd hit of the uair still connects even if they properly SDI if you guess which way they're going to SDI (which actually works a lot of the time in my personal experience). not to mention, at mid to higher percents where you have to double jump to reach your opponent, try shining for like, 1/3 of a second before the double jump. this completely ****s up their timing. they'll never SDI it lol

(that second trick doesn't really work on jigglypuff, but you can still uair such that they can only escape with SDI some of the time)
 
omgwtfToph

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All fighting is a game of position. The grapplers figured that out a while ago. Strikers are still, for the most part operating with the idea that they are “throwing punches” rather than applying positions (it just happens that the positions may knock the opponent unconscious in the process). Just like with grappling, positional dominance is key and consistent precision of mechanics and structure is the required foundation.
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wow lol

it is bizarre how 99.9% of that article applies to melee
 
trahhSTEEZY

trahhSTEEZY

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so..got to play hugs today for a good amount of time.

****'s so fun losing every game, it feels like a lesson in spacing every game. i gurantee just playing him tonight improved my spacing.

but uh, is it possible to do aerials late enough on samus' shield to where she can't properly upb oos?

up-b got me the most. he mentioned i should hit my aerials lower on his shield, for some reason i thought i'd get up-b'd regardless.

he also said that i don't approach from the ground enough..it makes sense but at the same time it's hard to accept since i don't know many approaches from the ground besides grab. he mentioned like shine upsmash approaches are unexpected, but i dunno what other ways of approaching from the ground. maybe shineJCgrabs? sounds sexy.
 
Pengie

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As far as ground approaches go, I've been spitballing around with the idea of running up and just shielding; in theory it's pretty safe because I can't think of that many situations where Samus would want to just throw out grabs. It also keeps you safe against Up B OoS or something like Wavedash back -> forward/up tilt/down smash. You also get the added bonus of potentially powershielding something which could lead to some sexy powershield -> buffered up smash kills. Keep in mind this is something that I haven't really tried out in matches too much, just something that looks like it might work.
 
RaynEX

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Thanks Brookman. That article was a great read. Everyone should take a look before it gets lost in our vast archive of Fox advice/questions.


Trahh, you have to step away from "ways of approaching". Its not limited to options A, B, C or X, Y, Z. Its open-ended and highly dependent on variables ranging from damage and character, to stage and positioning.

Think of a melee stage as an free expanse for you to do whatever you please. Your approach is only limited by your technical skill and ability to move fluently. (Okay, your opponent plays a big role here too..but you get what I mean)

Your defense is only limited by your perception of the stage and how many ways you wish to use it. (Again, this changes because your opponent plays a key role in how your strategies unfold.)

What I'm trying to say is, for the most part you control what happens in your approach. You control what happens in your defense. When you're mid-range or full screen, there isn't much your opponent can do to stop you from reverse shine wavelanding onto a platform and bairing him from behind. How can he possibly know you would go for that? There are so many ways to approach that trying to list them would be futile.

I understand that many players need a model to base their game around. Usually their fundamentals encompass a selection of common methods of approach and defense. Methods that often fail against the better players of today. IMO, if you want to get better at approaching, think of ways of getting in that don't involve running straight at them. Whether that means baiting a response or using the stage creatively - it's all conducive to a more thorough understanding of your character, your limits, and the stages you play on.

Against Samus low nairs and spaced bairs off or through platforms are good though. :)

edit: Don't be fooled, running straight in with nair/dair has its uses. But for improvement with your offensive insight, thinking in this manner is a good place to start.
 
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