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Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]

0Room

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
1,953
Location
Boone, NC
I just watched recent darkrain stuff to analyze his decision making/intuition you guys were talking about and really I think he just play very smart, all of his choices made sense he just made them REALLY quickly. Which is not surprising with his ridiculous techchasing. But he rarely makes a poor risk vs reward decision while on the stage. Once the opponent goes off the stage he seems to take bigger chances. While on stage though he picks very good times to attack.

Also to me it looks like every time he approaches or gets a hit he has a somewhat preplanned combo waiting just really to get imputed and if the hit doesn't land or they DI in a weird way the combo is half set up as pressure anyways.

I only watched like 8 matches so I'm not sure how accurate any of this is.
That's exactly it, congratulations on picking that up. [no sarcasm, I promise! :)]
The risk/reward system is something that I use a variation of, in which I pick the "best option" for the situation. What's got the most chance to hit/most ability to combo off of/least chance of retaliation if it misses? That's exactly the thoughts that are going through Darkrain's head, he's just so familiar with Falcon and his options that the process is superfast.

As far as preplanned combos, definitely! My friend and I were talking about that today, actually. You need a list of options in your head at any given % so that you know what you can do to do the most damage.
It's like looking at a Marth at 40% and knowing that you can dthrow->uair->regrab. It's stuff that you pick up over time, but you definitely need to start remembering them!

---------
Also, going off of the discussion about getting new "How to" guides, do you think it would be cool if I made one for Falcon?
We were discussing how the old ones were, well, old, and new players would really benefit from new ones. Also, since Scar isn't on often [not his fault], I guess I would have to make my own thread.

I know we've been kind of kicking this idea around a bit [Hax] but I think it would be cool to make a new one.
Not just the whole "this is an ftilt, wheee" thing, but I think it would be cool to dissect how to play MUs. I was thinking of a kind of edited-in red circles around Marth, for example, indicating all of the spaces he can control while DDing, or something like that.

A very simple video with lots of easy to see symbols [giant green checks, big red x's] would be cool, for given MUs

For example:
It shows Falcon playing against a Marth, they're both standing on the floor of DL64
Text pops up:
"In this Match up, it's all about who makes the first move. If you make a move first, you'll probably die."
~It shows a Falcon rushing at him with a nair, getting grabbed, then dthrown, then dair'd to death~
~Screen changes to big Red X~
"Patience is key in this Matchup. Dash dance around until you see an opening."
~Shows a Falcon and Marth DDing, then Marth does a dash attack, misses, and Falcon punishes~
~Screen changes to a big Green Check~
"To help your spacing, you need to remember just how much area Marth controls at any given moment. I've outlined all of the spaces in which his moves hit, so as to see the areas that he can hit you, if you misspace your DD"
~Marth's standing, I draw the outlines of utilt, Fsmash, ftilt, dtilt, and grab in succession, then an arrow for how far he was WD~
"Now here's what's really happening while he's dding"
~Overlay those outlines on the clip of Falcon and Marth dding~



What do you think?
cool idea?
Lame?

Lemme know
 

Walt

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 31, 2007
Messages
894
Location
Concord, CA
Sounds awesome dude, go for it. The Spacing Zones around Marth/whoever is something I think will really help.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I agree with general advice that's universal no matter what level your opponent is

stuff like

marth's good hitboxes are above and in front of him so your goal is to throw/hit him up and don't let him touch the ground (so hitbox discussion and how to manuever as a result is good)

baiting out laggy moves and counter-attacking, f-smash hitting your shield (not tipper) leads to a free knee

and other advice that is invaluable vs any marth

at the same time i don't like advice where in a spot they can do different things but still achieve success if they pull it off

i'm sure u just wrote that up in the spot but

stuff like never approaching marth until he throws out a move i don't like because sometimes its good to approach them as a mixup to ME but others insist on camping, and to me both are viable options

sometimes after a long string of pressuring and my opponents sitting in their shield, I can just stand there for a second and suddenly go for a knee and some people will jump out of shield at that moment while others won't.

=
so basically, advice that is universal is GOOD, but advice that tells u to stick to a certain way of playing i dislike, people should try to find a style that works for them best rather than be a shabby copy of others
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
Ya I agree with S2J, there's just certain things you can do differently from others which will allow you to punish in an unexpected way. If you bring out your own style, you can have special powers. Just like Azen's aura when you fight him. Or my special power to go through shields when I want to because I have fury... Or people SD because I have an evil aura. It is all because of the style.. and it's mad cool.. haha. =P
 

0Room

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
1,953
Location
Boone, NC
Definitely what I was going for, S2J. It was just a general guideline of "don't rush in without being careful because you will get *****" idea, not necessarily a "you must camp the **** out of this MU"
Make sense?

Also, for the shielded Fsmash->knee, does that work without a WD oos?

As far as what you said, Kage,
you have to remember this is for people who don't necessarily know how to play this
MU. I think creativity comes later.
 

0Room

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
1,953
Location
Boone, NC
That's what I thought, I just was playing that i my head and it didn't seem like it would work. I'll have to try it.
 

0Room

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
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Boone, NC
At 80%?
At 80% grab->uthrow->knee is guaranteed.

But as far as when you would use grab instead of knee, idk.
 

ryankam10

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
279
At 80%?
At 80% grab->uthrow->knee is guaranteed.

But as far as when you would use grab instead of knee, idk.
is this actually guaranteed though? If you're talking about marth I find they just di away and fair me as im going for the knee. I much rather dthrow => knee at 80% or higher. correct me if that is not the best option
 

0Room

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
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Boone, NC
*sigh* time to improve my falcon tech skill >.>
Yeah like he said, it's definitely guaranteed. The problem is finding that perfect time between throw and jump. It's something that bothers me, personally. But once you find it, you become unstoppable.
Throw->knee is the BEST finisher in the game at the correct percentages imo. Marth, Sheik, Ganon, Peach, Jiggs are all interesting MUs because your whole game revolves around getting them to those beautiful percentages. It's just getting there that's the hard part :/

On the plus side I applied for Melee BR :D
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12542229&postcount=467

I hope they accept me :p
 

Aussierob123

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 13, 2008
Messages
2,033
Location
Gold Coast - Australia
G-reg said that it's Only guaranteed between like 68-73%, I think after and before they can escape it.

Before just uthrow uair and you can either regrab DI away and uthrow knee, or just knee them if they DI in.

After wards is a bit harder, I'm not sure exactly when dthrow knee hits, I just know its better later lol.
 

0Room

Smash Lord
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Aug 21, 2008
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Boone, NC
Hmm, I disagree with that as far as G-Reg's info. You can try it for yourself, but I've always heard and seen anecdotally 80-100% uthrow->knee, and about 110-?% dthrow->knee.
 

ryankam10

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
279
Hmm, I disagree with that as far as G-Reg's info. You can try it for yourself, but I've always heard and seen anecdotally 80-100% uthrow->knee, and about 110-?% dthrow->knee.
been watching a bunch of isai v ken, he seems to use upthrow alot, I will try using upthrow at lower percents I guess. The thing is when they DI away (especially at low percents) I find it super difficult to land the uair...

As well of course at higher percents I find uthrow => knee is hard for me :S guess i just need to be faster.
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
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Aug 6, 2006
Messages
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Montreal, Quebec
Ya that wasn't fast enough. Oh man I'm so excited playing you Falcons, I think it's gonna be very hard for you guys, I increased my level even more.
 

Roneblaster

Smash Hero
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#MangoNation
Im an upthrow kind of guy. IDGAF if dthrow is a chokeslam.

(<3 GG7)

But something i find hilariously usefil is to use up throw alot then do downthrow at a clutch moment, some people will miss the tech just out of habit of tech timings. The opposite will work too.
 

0Room

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Boone, NC
Yeah I feel like he waited a fraction of a second too long.
But again I could be wrong it's just one of those things that I've always known as true and never been proved wrong on :/
But we'll see as time goes on.

As far as Ganon/Falcon, we had a really interesting discussion on that around Pound time.
Basically what we determined was

Ganon's Ftilt will **** you
Ganon's Fair will **** you
Watch out for the range at which he can waveland
Nair is simultaneously your best and worst approach
Uthrow->knee at [again] 80%
Knee is your best option, puts Ganons in a hard spot of recovery
Once they're [you're] offstage, that's a stock
Just be smart in your edgeguarding
Grabs **** [as always]
Nair combos weird
 

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744
Just Nair as soon as Ganon jumps
It's not like Ganon should be beating you with his ground game anyways
You're so much faster than Ganon getting airborne that you can basically react to his like 20million frame jump + Fair startup with a Nair
Unless they Uair I guess iono I haven't played a notable Ganon :\
 

linkoninja

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 26, 2009
Messages
459
Location
Los Angeles
Yeah I feel like he waited a fraction of a second too long.
But again I could be wrong it's just one of those things that I've always known as true and never been proved wrong on :/
But we'll see as time goes on.

As far as Ganon/Falcon, we had a really interesting discussion on that around Pound time.
Basically what we determined was

Ganon's Ftilt will **** you
Ganon's Fair will **** you
Watch out for the range at which he can waveland
Nair is simultaneously your best and worst approach
Uthrow->knee at [again] 80%
Knee is your best option, puts Ganons in a hard spot of recovery
Once they're [you're] offstage, that's a stock
Just be smart in your edgeguarding
Grabs **** [as always]
Nair combos weird
This is a nice summary
I read about your idea for a guide discussing specific matchups. It looks like you are well on your way :D
If you make the guide you should start with a summary like this, then get into detail.
I think it would really benefit new players (like me :p) from a general overview of the matchup, then specifics.
Good Job! I hope you make it into the BR since I actually read ur post :p and I thought it was well put together.

One question though
what's the difference between Ganon's and Falcons F-Tilt?
Ganons is stronger obviously, more range I think? Falcons is faster though? Anything else I'm missing?
 

ryankam10

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
279
Yeah I feel like he waited a fraction of a second too long.
But again I could be wrong it's just one of those things that I've always known as true and never been proved wrong on :/
But we'll see as time goes on.

As far as Ganon/Falcon, we had a really interesting discussion on that around Pound time.
Basically what we determined was

Ganon's Ftilt will **** you
Ganon's Fair will **** you
Watch out for the range at which he can waveland
Nair is simultaneously your best and worst approach
Uthrow->knee at [again] 80%
Knee is your best option, puts Ganons in a hard spot of recovery
Once they're [you're] offstage, that's a stock
Just be smart in your edgeguarding
Grabs **** [as always]
Nair combos weird
ganons jab is broken as **** wtf
 

ryankam10

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
279
Ganon is easy if you play gay. I cant wait to play kage some day. He'll **** me though cause i dont play gay.
I feel you gotta be real careful jumping out of your shield against ganon. lots of times i try to jump out of my shield and i just die
 

CaptainNanD0

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 4, 2009
Messages
447
Location
Dark side
Falcon kinda ***** ganon, just grab him and after upthrow or downthrow just nair and combo his balls off, i beat rockcrock pretty bad by just doing that lol all i did was grab him
 
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