Final Fantasy Tactics Mafia: Game finally over! Raziek lynched, Town wins! Lego too!

Also gives me a good idea on whom to look into toMorrow.

Honestly, I don't know how this day would end without a Nich lynch atm. I don't know the vote count so I don't wanna put my vote on right now.

Likewise.

Nich lynch is pretty much set at this point, I don't see any reason to push it any more than it already has been (hard to push it further than Ryker has). A lot of what I'm looking at is going to depend on Nich's flip, so I'm down for ending the day a bit early to get that information.

NickelbackR0cks said:

I just posted earlier today. I said saturday i wouldnt be posting until monday/today. Did everyone miss that?
In short, having read every post and wall in this game, i agree with ryker.
Vote:Nicholas

Click to expand...

And after having read every single last post in this game, THIS (and the post before it) is all you have to offer?

Someone vig this guy.

And this game is more like fire emblem then I originally thought. Gheb = Zen, Glyph = X1, I = myself, and town = fail.

Also anyone who judges me before reading my response to Ryker in full can die in a fire.

Hopefully I can take out another one of Ryker's posts in the hour and a half I have, but if not then you'll have to wait until later tonight.

Ryker said:

Stepping Back Whenever Convenient:

Alright, at this point, we all know Nich has claimed that he never intended for the Nickel wagon to be taken seriously. He knew it was a trumped up charge and claimed that he only started as a means to get reactions from the playerlist. However, for some reason, he continues to defend that wagon both before and after that claim of intention.

Click to expand...

Let's clarify this once and for all. I never intended the wagon to lead to a lynch. I did intend it for both pressure and to generate discussion.

Here's the first post that he outright states that he had an alternative motive. This is from his #157.



And here is his grimy as **** #193. This is the part I want us to focus on:



So he's talking about how his motive was always simply to start discussion rather than do anything with the wagon.

Why then, does he do the following?

#176 - Accuses Gheb for being scum for calling him out on what he says he already knew was a bad case.

Click to expand...

Let's bring up the actual post.

Nicholas1024 said:

Anyway, more to the point, here's a basic summary of me/Gheb/nickel interactions to this point.

Nickel makes a few odd posts that don't do any content and seem like posting for the sake of posting.

T-block and I call him out on it, and start up a wagon to see what a little pressure does.

Nickel basically apologizes for his lack of content and does a bit of setup speculation, but still doesn't produce any scumhunting.

I keep pushing.

Gheb says that Nickel's obviously new and that I'm scaring him, so I should stop the pressure because he's reacting badly to it.

I explain to him that that's horrible reasoning, and keep pushing.

Gheb says he dislikes my tunneling (in effect) and votes me for it.

I've had enough, and turn things back around on Gheb with my own mini-case.

Basically, the reason I dislike Gheb is that his defense of Nickel feels fake. How can anyone even pretend that "The pressure is actually PRESSURING him, so you should stop it" is a valid argument?!? Not to mention, his attack on me seems rather odd as well. I'm one of the heaviest tunnelers on this site, so how is it logical to call me scummy for said tunneling? Yeah, I'll admit that it's possible for me-scum to try and imitate said tunneling (and logically, what I would try to do as scum). However that doesn't change the fact that I tunnel as town all the time, so you'd need better evidence as to WHY a particular instance of me tunneling is scummy. (And I play with Gheb a fair bit, so he's definitely aware of my meta.)

Click to expand...

So here's the thing. I've said that the case was intended for both pressure and to generate discussion just about everywhere. I have not said that the case was bad and/or false. In short, here's another callout for strawmanning you've been asking for. GIVE QUOTES OF WHERE I SAY IT'S A BAD CASE.

#307 - Bottom of the first collapse box. Defending the push on Nickel, not as a means of generating content, but on it's merit alone.

Click to expand...

You mean this bit?

You know, attacking the main guy attacking Nickel FOR pressuring Nickel is fairly similar to a defense of Nickel. Especially since the pressure was me saying "Post something useful", and you can't exactly go "No, he shouldn't have to be useful."

Click to expand...

#343 - The big one. The entirety of this post is him defending T-Block's push on Nickelback. He even says it would be hypocritical of him to push T-Block on those grounds. Thing is though, he claimed that he was only on that wagon in order to generate discussion, so why is he giving T-Block a pass when he has made no such motive clear. Furthermore, he's STILL DEFENDING THE MERITS OF THE PUSH ITSELF! He picks and chooses his reason for pushing Nickel as it suits him. It changes whenever he needs it to.

Click to expand...

Again, here's the quote.

Nicholas1024 said:

Why are you pressuring T-block in the first place? The main reason I've seen is because he's more or less affiliated with me and also pressured Nickel, and it'd be highly hypocritical if I were to pressure him on those grounds. The fact is, it was a small amount of pressure just out of RVS on someone who'd been posting a little but not contributing, and I don't see why people find that scummy.

Click to expand...

The reason I'm defending T-block is because he's not an idiot, obviously didn't want a lynch, and was trying to get the guy to scumhunt. My reasoning was two-fold, I've claimed that I made the case to draw discussion out of other people, and to get some scumhunting out of Nickel. Both are true, and mutually consistent.

Ryker said:

A Vote From Nich is a Vote From Scum:

Nich has thrown three votes this game and they are all three INCREDIBLY grimy.

Here's the first one, ironically post #66.

Now. Let's look at this vote. Of course later, he claims it was only to generate discussion, but let's look at his target.

Click to expand...

For the infinity-eth time, the vote was to generate discussion and to pressure Nickelback into contributing.

He picked Nickelback.

This man has played one game. It was a newbie where he was scum. The vote is placed on this guy for a lack of content when half the cast hadn't done jack **** and the man in question only had three posts, none of which would lead people to believe that he wouldn't be contributing down the line. In fact, from reading them, I gathered that he was trying to figure out what was going on and would actually contribute if left to his own devices as opposed to a player like Seph or Rajam that hasn't done jack **** even at this stage.

Click to expand...

You've been fluffing up your case, we've been over this before. I've extensively justified my vote on Nickel under the v.s. Gheb part of my first post, but I'll put re-explain below just so you see it gets answered.

Here are Nickelback's posts.

#5 - Pregame banter.
#34 - RVS vote.
#44 - Examines set-up discussion. Weighs in. At least tries to do something else.

From that point forward, he was under pressure and forced to act off of it. None of those posts should lead Nich or T-Block to think that vote was warranted.

Click to expand...

None of those three posts you linked are where the problem lies. Here's the complete quote string for everyone to see, and you guys can judge for yourself whether it's scummy or not. Here's the pre-my-vote posts.



And here's the post-vote ones.



Now, one last time, although other people hadn't contributed yet, they also hadn't posted yet. Nickel had posted half a dozen times before I'd voted him, given what was effectively an apology for not contributing, and still hadn't contributed. THAT'S why I voted him over Seph or Red Ryu.

So much for my first vote being scummy. Let's move on to the second.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's Nich's second vote from his #157.



That is complete and total OMGUS. He snaps at the first person to pressure him for a vote that I just outlined was unjustified and then tries to use some self-meta WIFOM bull**** to clear it. He even goes forward to try and justify it by saying that "he's been watching a lot of OS play."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Click to expand...

This is a complete strawman. Everyone keep in mind that quote string between myself, T-block, and Nickel. That is what Gheb thought I was scum for. We were just out of RVS, and I was putting some mild pressure on a guy who had been posting but not contributing so he'd scumhunt. And Gheb wanted me to stop it because he was claiming I'd scare him out of scumhunting. Does this make any sense whatsoever to anyone?

Secondly, he acted as if the vote was a scumtell for me. Let's pretend Gheb was right with his first point, that I'd been tunneling ultra-hard, scaring the poor guy out of his wits, ranting up a storm, etc. Even if all that was true, that wouldn't make me scum, pressuring a single person very hard is something I do all the time as town. And Gheb's played with me a lot, so he should be completely aware of this.

In short, there was no thread of logic I could find to Gheb's claims. His action (regardless of alignment) was clearly to stop the pressure on Nickel, but I could see no town reason for him to think town-Nickel would react badly to a simple request to scumhunt, nor could I see a legitimate reason for him to think I was scummy.

This brings us to his third vote. One for me in his #370.



Oh boy is this fun. First off, let's note that he later says he had made up his mind from the moment Glyph claimed Day Vig. However, it took him an hour and a half to "remember" that he was going to vote me.

Click to expand...

What does the timing of the vote prove? If you want to know why I didn't vote immediately, I was just concerned about getting all the info I wanted to say out before OS logged on in case it was an actual daykill. Once I was sure I wasn't actually going to die from the thing, I went ahead and added the vote.

Now, let's look back at his #307. In the second collapse box he claims that he hasn't figured out who is scum yet.

What happened in that 24 hour period between the post where he was unsure and the post where he votes me? I know what the deciding factor was since he never placed his finger on it. It was Gheb voting T-Block and claiming that I needed more examination. CONVENIENTLY, Gheb goes from being his biggest scum read to being one of Nich's two strongest town reads after that as well. He professed this while his vote was still on Gheb until he finally moved it to me after he remembered.

Click to expand...

It was a multitude of things that caused me to rethink. First there was Gheb having interactions not related to me that seemed somewhat townish. Secondly, I remembered to apply one of my main rules. That is, making a bad wagon may or may not be scummy, but joining one is far, FAR worse.

Lego had joined early when it was unclear whether or not the wagon would take heat.

Inferno's push was rather mild, and he did have a point that justified his stance (namely, that my reaction to Gheb seemed defensive, looking back on it I can understand why he'd think that.)

You on the other hand, waited a bit before voting to see which way the wind blew, and then waited much longer to see if anyone took my side before pushing the thing in earnest. Perfect timing for scum who wants to push a mislynch without taking a ton of heat for it.

Secondly, there was the way you pushed it. I've been calling you out on strawmen, twisting points, taking me out of context for a while now. In short, your argument style was very dishonest. Rather than take a clear view of everything, you'd pick bits and pieces to create the picture you wanted to paint. Then you went ahead and made that little song, basically sidestepping my entire argument with one huge piece of fluff.

And finally, the daykill did force me to decide and decide fast who was scummy, making me take another look at things and realize the above two points.

Also, your claim I have Gheb as a townread is an outright lie.

Nicholas1024 said:

Gheb I no longer see as my #1 target, but I still think he's rather scummy. I've gone over the specifics before, but I do think interactions not related to me, T-block, or Nickel feel somewhat townie. On the other hand, his actions w.r.t. me/T-block feel very bad. For instance, after (rightfully) calling out Ryker for using the "He agrees with me so he's town" logic, he then claims Glyph is confirmed town for voting T-block.

Click to expand...

Yeah, no thanks Nich.

Click to expand...

Three posts down, two packs of lies to go.

Ryker said:

The Problem With Self-Meta:

Oh boy, this one is probably my second favorite after the one you get to see last.

Nich loves his self-meta, but what does he use it to do? The answer, to set himself up in a position where he is able to play in an anti-town manner and not take heat for it.

Anyone remember this?



Or maybe this?







Wow, aren't these two posts just wonderful. They're all we'll be needing for this point, so let's wrap this up quick.

Click to expand...

Look what Nich is saying. Seriously, read it again since I'm pretty sure you're mind is already trying to block the painful memory? Doesn't it just make your eyes bleed?

He's trying to say that he has a history of tunneling and that it should be excused since he's done it before. He's seriously trying to write himself a free pass to tunnel the balls out of this game.

Click to expand...

Strawman. What I'm saying is not that you shouldn't call me out if you think I'm tunneling. I am saying that you can't call tunneling a scumtell for me without further justification. Let's use an example.

1. Frozenflame is inactive all the time, as scum or town.

2. Therefore, inactivity is not a scumtell for Frozen. Anyone who claims otherwise is unaware of his meta, or an idiot.

3. However, you always should call Frozen out on inactivity, and the above is not an excuse for Frozen to be inactive.

Now take the above, replace Frozen with "Nicholas1024" and inactivity with "tunneling". That's the point I'm trying to make.

Now look again at the second quote.

He is seriously trying to self-meta that he wouldn't act as he has in this game with the paragraph about doing something highly visible. The very fact that he posted that means he's aware that scum can do it just as easily because scum wouldn't do it. It's elementary WIFOM and that's what he's using to defend himself.

Click to expand...

You know, I'm pretty sure I've gone over this too. It's not obvious at first glance, but there's a lot of repeated material in this case to make it look better.

Here's what I'm asking. "What does scum gain in acting this way?" There's clear reasons as to why scum-me WOULDN'T attack Gheb (highly visible, easily constructed as OMGUS, likely to ensure you take a lot of pressure), while the only reasons scum-me might would be to get a mislynch on Gheb (not an easy task), or because "scum-me wouldn't act this way", AKA: WIFOM.

You've never actually answered why scum-me would act that way, and just used WIFOM as an excuse to try and brush it under the rug.

He goes on to discourage the use of Occam's Razor and say that we should assume convoluted motives from him, but let's look at what he stands to gain from the explanation in question:

Click to expand...

Strawman. I'm not saying to discard Occam's Razor entirely, but the places you're trying to use it are not valid applications.

Nich votes Nickel on overblown points to start discussion.

Pros:

>Can generate discussion.

Cons:

>Puts Nickel on the defensive and stunts his output.
>Runs the risk of Nickel saying something stupid as either alignment.
>Risks a Nickel mislynch.
>Risks being called out on his overblown points. Possibly leading to getting yourself lynched.

Feel free to double check that risk-reward ratio, but that does not ring up as town motive if you ask me.

Click to expand...

This is a pack of lies. Let's try this with some true things.

I vote Nickel for valid if minor points to get him to scumhunt.

Pros:
>Can generate discussion.
>Will probably make Nickel scumhunt.
>Advances the game as a whole further out of RVS.

Cons:
>May be attacked for it by stupid people.

So no, Nich, your WIFOM defense will not stand in my court. Case closed.

Click to expand...

Objection overruled, Ryker.

Ryker said:

BONUS: Nich and Meta Information:

So I told you I stumbled upon something incredible, right? Well look at this. I was checking the "Who Posted" List to get specific posts from Nich and I accidentally went to his profile instead of his list of posts. I noticed a conversation he was having with J on it, so I checked it out.

Note: All of this took place after he voted me.

He posted on J's wall:



Followed by a post from J being nice and responding humoring Nich without insulting me.

Nich posts once more saying:

Click to expand...

Wow, Ryker. WOW. I can't believe you honestly went and tried this. Those posts weren't even in relation to this game, they were relative to the tier list discussion in Xonar's thread, and how people have you absurdly high on said tier lists. The second one does have a little game-relation, but all it means is that I'm frustrated with this game and rather wanted someone to rant to.

Honestly, I'm disgusted that you're trying to use this as evidence.

This is the second time I've seen Nich talking in a way that implies that he knows I'm not scum. The first being where he offered me that deal concerning his and T-Block's alignments without taking into account that I could be scum.

Click to expand...

As far as the deal goes, that was me covering my six. In the event that somehow you are town, I didn't want you to reply to my criticisms of your play with "Oh yeah? You sucked as well", so I picked an option to cover that.

And if you want to try and spin that as "Nick's scum and knows I'm town", let me ask you this, if I'm scum and you're town, why on earth would I make the deal in the first place outside of some feeble attempt to look town, since by the terms you'd have bragging rights and I wouldn't be allowed to call out your delusions.

And, that's everything. Can we kill Ryker now? Please?

On phone but that last bit about on you offering the deal and how it proves you're not scum is horrendous.

Also, I'm still with Ryker on the large. You refer to a lot of his case as flat out lies, but thats really not true at all. The only inaccuracy he might have had was the number of posts nick had before you voted him (something you were adamantly pointing out)... But even if he did count wrong it doesn't change anything. It just means he counted wrong.

I'm not claiming it proves anything, but I'm pointing out that it hardly makes sense as some amazing scum gambit to look town.

And quite a bit of Ryker's case is flat out lies. For instance, accusations that I'm not scumhunting should be obviously false to anybody following this game.

Red Ryu said:

Ryker tl;dr.

Click to expand...

I don't need you to read. You already think Nich is scum.

Nicholas1024 said:

And after having read every single last post in this game, THIS (and the post before it) is all you have to offer?

Someone vig this guy.

And this game is more like fire emblem then I originally thought. Gheb = Zen, Glyph = X1, I = myself, and town = fail.

Also anyone who judges me before reading my response to Ryker in full can die in a fire.

Hopefully I can take out another one of Ryker's posts in the hour and a half I have, but if not then you'll have to wait until later tonight.

Click to expand...

Why the hell would anyone vig Nickel when Rajam exists?

DtJ Glyphmoney said:

On phone but that last bit about on you offering the deal and how it proves you're not scum is horrendous.

Also, I'm still with Ryker on the large. You refer to a lot of his case as flat out lies, but thats really not true at all. The only inaccuracy he might have had was the number of posts nick had before you voted him (something you were adamantly pointing out)... But even if he did count wrong it doesn't change anything. It just means he counted wrong.

Click to expand...

The thing is, that's what he voted for. T-Block's reasoning. Nickel has been under fire from his third post onward.

Also interesting to note, look at how Nich IMMEDIATELY snaps at Nickel once he says something involving NichScum.

Nich, you deserve to die a thousand deaths for comparing me to Zen -.-

Claim, Nich.

Not until more people have weighed in on my rebuttal to all your points.

And my vote on Nickel was T-block's reasoning + extra, in that he dodged T-block's question initially, and still hadn't contributed several posts later.

Nich, take a look at what's going on. The situation you are in is not a matter of Ryker lying or a poor town; its a product of your play. You need to recognize that Ryker has made a lot of good points against you that can't really be refuted, and you can't blame that on anyone else.

Its a good time to claim.

DtJ Glyphmoney said:

Nich, take a look at what's going on. The situation you are in is not a matter of Ryker lying or a poor town; its a product of your play. You need to recognize that Ryker has made a lot of good points against you that can't really be refuted, and you can't blame that on anyone else.

Its a good time to claim.

Click to expand...

Examples, please. After going through the whole case, I found two instances where he had a point, and that was it (My initial misinterpretation of Gheb's "your vote on Nickel is selective", and the deal only being meaningful if he's town).

I think the whole damn thing is pretty convincing, especially since the defense I see you use the most often is 'I was doing this for ____, but you couldn't tell because it was supposed to _____' (ie, I voted Nick to put pressure on him to scumhunt)

Saying you did that for a reason needs to line up with what is going on at the time, and I don't feel that yours does.

I'm going to entirely discount the entire point about the posting outside the thread since I just don't like relying on **** like that, but I don't think I've got an issue with the rest.

Its still claiming time hombre.

@Gheb, it seems like everyone is ok with Nich dying. What do you think about that considering you're known for the logic that is "if everyone wants someone dead that someone is most likely town logic?" Why is that not the case here?

Gova it sounds like you think Nich is town, is that the case?

DtJ Glyphmoney said:

I think the whole damn thing is pretty convincing, especially since the defense I see you use the most often is 'I was doing this for ____, but you couldn't tell because it was supposed to _____' (ie, I voted Nick to put pressure on him to scumhunt)

Saying you did that for a reason needs to line up with what is going on at the time, and I don't feel that yours does.

I'm going to entirely discount the entire point about the posting outside the thread since I just don't like relying on **** like that, but I don't think I've got an issue with the rest.

Its still claiming time hombre.

Click to expand...

For crying out loud Glyph, when I say IN THE POST that Nickel needs to scum hunt, how is it not obvious that the pressure is to get him to scum hunt? Seriously, why can't anyone see that?!?

@Glyph, I said my read is conflicted in a previous post.

EBWOP: For Glyph

Gova said:

As for Nich, my read is conflicted because I have no scum-play of his to compare too other than the time he replaced into FF9 but I'm not sure how accurately depict his scum play seeing as how he was told to just coast/lurk. The fact that I also had to ask multiple times whether or not he agreed with T-Blocks accusation also didn't sit well with me. I find it that when you have to keep rephrasing/asking questions is a slight indication that someone is scum or at least hiding somerthing. At this point I'm not opposed to his lynch and need to be on it but there's nothing I can say for certain that makes me go "yeah this guy is definitely scum."

Click to expand...

Nicholas1024 said:

For crying out loud Glyph, when I say IN THE POST that Nickel needs to scum hunt, how is it not obvious that the pressure is to get him to scum hunt? Seriously, why can't anyone see that?!?

Click to expand...

You can say whatever the hell you want, but when you put a vote down on someone you're saying 'I want you dead'. Whether you mean it to put pressure or to be a legit wagon DOESN'T MATTER AT THE TIME. In fact, if you vote for someone and make it clear its just for pressure you have not accomplished anything, it'd be like putting a gun to someone's head after showing them its not loaded.

So from an outsider's point of view, you telling Nick to scum hunt and then voting him says 'you need to get off your *** or I'm going to kill you'. That is not a phrase that works though, since you've put them on the defensive already. BUT HEY its not like this has already been said, so I'm gunna leave it at that.

Gova said:

@Glyph, I said my read is conflicted in a previous post.

Click to expand...

Okay.

DtJ Glyphmoney said:

You can say whatever the hell you want, but when you put a vote down on someone you're saying 'I want you dead'. Whether you mean it to put pressure or to be a legit wagon DOESN'T MATTER AT THE TIME. In fact, if you vote for someone and make it clear its just for pressure you have not accomplished anything, it'd be like putting a gun to someone's head after showing them its not loaded.

So from an outsider's point of view, you telling Nick to scum hunt and then voting him says 'you need to get off your *** or I'm going to kill you'. That is not a phrase that works though, since you've put them on the defensive already. BUT HEY its not like this has already been said, so I'm gunna leave it at that.

Click to expand...

...

I have no words for this.

@mod:
Requesting flavor change to Fire Emblem.

Nicholas1024 said:

...

I have no words for this.

@mod:
Requesting flavor change to Fire Emblem.

Click to expand...

Deflecting followed by AtE.

Nich, embodying everything I've said.

What's to deflect? He wasn't making an accusation, I was asking him his reasoning on a topic, and I have nothing to say to his reply. Quit twisting my words.

Since when was openly showing frustration/despair ATE anyway? I wasn't trying to convince anyone of anything, merely making a remark about my view of town's general competence.

Nich if you chose abilities that can save your ***, I would recommend doing it. You aren't my number 1 lynch choice, but at this rate your lynch is set. Especially if you are going to insult people.

Eh, I suppose some of my insults have been unwarranted, and I probably should apologize to those involved (Gheb, Glyph, and town in general). I'm not exactly about to retract that I think the level of town-play is abysmal though.

And my abilities will remain undisclosed at this time, but I'll go ahead and name claim.

I'm Ramza, aka: The main character of the game.

Now what, Ryker?

In a word,...

Bull****.

One of two things is the case here:

1.) You're scum claiming blind attempting to pull a CC. You can role with it if you aren't CCed and I have no idea whether or not Ramza would be chosen as a character in this game seeing as he is an overglorified generic unit.

2.) You're scum with a safeclaim trying to get out using a powerful name. Makes sense as a safelaim choice since Ramza is an overglorified generic unit.

I don't believe you.

Claim your abilities.

Like I'd listen to you, Ryker. My abilities are remaining secret unless other people want me to claim them.

Well considering you're going to get lynched if you don't claim I don't see why you'd even say that Nich

Buying time.

Look, you're not winning off that claim. I don't even want to see you CCed until you've claimed your abilities. They're gonna have to be something pretty damn self-fufilling to save your life.

Claim Nich.

I see everyone viewing this thread. Post, don't watch.

Why would I need to buy time? If you haven't noticed, according to the last vote count there's only 4 votes on me, compared to three on you. I'm not exactly in imminent danger of death here.

Show me a crumb.