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Food for thought.
- Thread starter Trypt
- Start date
k, im sure when they see melee AGAIN, they will understand and accept you this time.
I guess they were all too dumb to see melee for what it was before
El Duderino
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2011
- Messages
- 570
Vkrm has it right on this one. In addition to fighting breast cancer, this was about getting Melee on EVOs stage and all the new interest/excitement that comes with it.
The vocal minority at SRK, those poor lost soles, have themselves entirely convinced our donation drive somehow revolved around them. I'm sure this community would welcome the FGC's respect, acceptance, and acknowledgement of Melee as a matured competitive fighter, but that is their challenge to overcome, not ours. The groupthink at SDK suggesting we have yet to "earn" it, or worse tried to "pay" for it, is some of the biggest condescending, self-centered BS I've ever read.
The vocal minority at SRK, those poor lost soles, have themselves entirely convinced our donation drive somehow revolved around them. I'm sure this community would welcome the FGC's respect, acceptance, and acknowledgement of Melee as a matured competitive fighter, but that is their challenge to overcome, not ours. The groupthink at SDK suggesting we have yet to "earn" it, or worse tried to "pay" for it, is some of the biggest condescending, self-centered BS I've ever read.
MasterShake
Smash Lord
Word. There are going to be 100K people simultaneously watching Mango get off. For reference some of our most popular GF videos only have like 30 - 40K views. That's powerful stuff.
Jonas
Smash Champion
Why not? They're two different games, so it stands to reason that they have two different communities. I'm not saying we should hate each other (because hating someone over a video game is f***ing ********), but most players just want to talk about and play their own game rather than "Smash" in general.
I'm tired of hating on Brawl. It was fun the first year, and me and my melee mates could laugh about it together, but it's old now. Brawl has a scene different from ours, and it's not our business anymore.
There's not a reason to compare the two games anymore.
There's not a reason to compare the two games anymore.
Jonas
Smash Champion
I'll never get tired of hating on Brawl, but I guess I'm gonna have to contain myself 
Zone
Smash Champion
Being serious here for just one moment.
I REALLY HATED brawl.
I hated it so much, I microwaved my copy. I didn't even return it. It felt good to do so.
I went on smashboards for a couple of days and debated why I think Brawl was a double step backwards and not just a "different" game from a competitive aspect.
Ever since The Greatest Melee Tournament Since Brawl Came Out. I've kept my mouth shut online about Brawl. once I got my feelings out, no point in badgering people about a game they WANT to play.
Mortal Kombat 9 get a lot of hate for meter drain glitch, combo resets, player 1 advantage, Input bug, negative edge, and a "block button"
But I love that game regardless, and any hate doesn't bother me.
nor should any hate bother you brawl players.
but haters... seriously once you make your point. Just leave it alone lol. I show my hatred for brawl by never entering brawl tournaments even at hybrid tournies.
that speaks more for your opinion than any post you can make.
And should just keep it at that.
I find UMVC3 really boring. but I don't complain about Xfactor/1hit kills/unblockable set ups. I expressed my complaints ONE time. and from then on just ignored the game like it doesn't exist.
I REALLY HATED brawl.
I hated it so much, I microwaved my copy. I didn't even return it. It felt good to do so.
I went on smashboards for a couple of days and debated why I think Brawl was a double step backwards and not just a "different" game from a competitive aspect.
Ever since The Greatest Melee Tournament Since Brawl Came Out. I've kept my mouth shut online about Brawl. once I got my feelings out, no point in badgering people about a game they WANT to play.
Mortal Kombat 9 get a lot of hate for meter drain glitch, combo resets, player 1 advantage, Input bug, negative edge, and a "block button"
But I love that game regardless, and any hate doesn't bother me.
nor should any hate bother you brawl players.
but haters... seriously once you make your point. Just leave it alone lol. I show my hatred for brawl by never entering brawl tournaments even at hybrid tournies.
that speaks more for your opinion than any post you can make.
And should just keep it at that.
I find UMVC3 really boring. but I don't complain about Xfactor/1hit kills/unblockable set ups. I expressed my complaints ONE time. and from then on just ignored the game like it doesn't exist.
KrIsP!
Smash Champion
Evo in 2007 was small. It didn't have a stream and didn't have as many sponsors. This is exposure on ign for our donations, exposure on stream to players, exposure at the event for the crowd and exposure on youtube forever, as well to Namco who's there supporting Tekken and Nintendo who simply can't ignore this. People are watching us we have a chance to make an impression. Not to mention it'll be hype as **** and I gurantee a few people will join to try and body people in a party game. Not just people at Evo but people at your locals. There's always people behind us playing Marvel, skull girls, SF and more during smash weeklies, those people are going to evo, now they might sit down and say hi.
Not to mention everyone confuses melee '07 which was received well with brawl '08 and let's face it there were some controversies there. Not only that but randoms hear trolls and rumours spread and now apparently Ken won melee in '07 after we forced CPU to forfeit cause we didn't like items and CPU was a random FGC player and wtf? That **** didn't even go down for brawl. I can't believe people actually think that, but good trolls are enraging, the people I've hard say that kind of stuff just seem confused by what they're saying.
Wobbly Headed Bob
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2010
- Messages
- 367
Food for thought:
-The FGC is an underground community of competitive fighting games. They pride themselves in being underground in part because they appreciate the lack of censor, the liberty in expression, and the banter. Why are we trying to act like paragons of respect and tolerance in a community that prides itself in being outspoken and politically incorrect?
-The FGC doesn't treat the Smash game the same way we treat Brawl. Treating Brawl the same way the FGC treats us would imply that we treat Brawl as if it wasn't a fighting game. The melee community considers Brawl to be a fighting game. The difference is that the general melee community considers Brawl to be a fighting game that sucks. You know? Kind of like what everyone in the FGC thinks that SFxT sucks.
Well, where does the conflict between Melee and Brawl communities arise then? The difference in point of view. Imagine if a bunch of kids got into SFxT because SFxT included Goku and Justin Beiber in it and they were unwavering in the belief that SFxT was the best game ever, while others got into the game with the mentality of "I was never good at melee, but I wanna be good at the next game". Then a competitive scene arose from that where they all use the auto-block and auto-parry gems and consistently try to time each others out and consider nothing to be wrong with it.
The Street Fighter community would be severely appalled by it, to which the SFxT community would retaliate with claims such as "SFxT is the newer game, so it's better" and "Street Fighter sucks. It's all about combos and hard commands. I want to play a game where my tr00 geni0us (always misspelled) shines without being hindered by an unnecessary execution barrier like blocking the right direction or throw-teching".
The Street Fighter community would look down on the SFxT community pretty hard. The SF community thought that SFIV sucked before it was fixed, something that will never happen in Brawl.
--> The problem, at its core, is not an issue of "respect" or "tolerance"; it's an issue of understanding and comprehension. The misunderstanding that smash is not a fighting game comes from the evaluation of the games genre based on convention. For instance, the fgc scrubs that think that Smash is not a fighting game think that a fighting game is defined by having health bars and walls, etc. Last night, Wobbles gave this excellent spiel that I can't recreate on how the philosophical properties of competitive smash were at their core identical to that of other fighting games. It's those properties that define a fighting game, not the variable conventions.
Respect and tolerance are only persuasive factors. It's usually easier to be persuaded when the other party exhibits respect because we humans are competitive animals that sometimes can't quite divorce the difference between the truth and what is convenient.
However, through respect alone, we're not going to make the FGC suddenly consider us a fighting game although it may make it respect us. A human may love his dog to no end, but that does imply that the person may understand the dog as a human. Some slave owners loved and respected their black slaves, but they erroneously misunderstood them as subhumans because they didn't have the knowledge or understanding that the American public has nowadays.
What needs to happen is that knowledge on melee needs to get out. That Maximilian dude had a great point, and the main focus of the melee community right now should be content creation. A thorough argument that undeniably proves that smash is a fighting game needs to be developed and streamlined, and EVO exposure is the gateway to do so with authority.
Even if smash is to be considered a fighting game, it may still get the treatment that Mortal Kombat is getting. "OMG this game sucks, I can't mash c. lp into an 8 hit combo, do aerial raves, and it doesn't have 9 year old cliche girls with visible cameltoe upskirts and obnoxious predictable voices for my virgin lardass to masturbate to. People only like it because it has gore omg".
In order to minimize that, and significantly increase the smash hype that we ALL want in EVO, people that haven't been properly introduced to the game need to be... properly introduced to it. If the melee community could organize and pull out a couple of professionally produced videos with well-written scripts, get competent people or even professionals to perform in them, and get these efforts published in fgc websites such as SRK or get linked by Max's channel, the view count and hype for smash will undoubtedly rise significantly. The potential for this has already been demonstrated when Vectorman's Eggstinction II was featured in SRK. The feedback from people with no melee experience was positive.
Justin Wong says he loves watching melee, and that's because, although he says he's not good at it, he knows what's going on. I can watch games like the new KoF, Soul Calibur, etc on hours on end because, although I no longer play the series, I understand what's happening. This knowledge increases the experience significantly; what to someone may be a showing of two people playing a game becomes a spectacle to those that are initiated.
To a fighting game player whose experience with spacing is walking back and for with Chun Li trying to space pokes and sweeps, the crazy movement in Melee will just look to them like silly unnecessary dancing where people are just pushing back and forth on the stick, and not realize the minute nuances and the technical requirement that goes into it. This is why content needs to be out INTRODUCING the gameplay mechanics alongside matches and combo videos.
Ideally, if such a project was to take off. Smash and its subgenre could be considered an fgc common. The Namco development of Smash 4 could even potentially be influenced by the avid competitive scene, as we need to show that there is money and a following waiting to be capitalized upon. Sony is already taking steps in that direction, although they can't quite capitalize in Melee's idiosyncratic competitive appeal.
Oh god I'm sorry if everything I've said has already been mentioned. I didn't even read past the first page.
-The FGC is an underground community of competitive fighting games. They pride themselves in being underground in part because they appreciate the lack of censor, the liberty in expression, and the banter. Why are we trying to act like paragons of respect and tolerance in a community that prides itself in being outspoken and politically incorrect?
-The FGC doesn't treat the Smash game the same way we treat Brawl. Treating Brawl the same way the FGC treats us would imply that we treat Brawl as if it wasn't a fighting game. The melee community considers Brawl to be a fighting game. The difference is that the general melee community considers Brawl to be a fighting game that sucks. You know? Kind of like what everyone in the FGC thinks that SFxT sucks.
Well, where does the conflict between Melee and Brawl communities arise then? The difference in point of view. Imagine if a bunch of kids got into SFxT because SFxT included Goku and Justin Beiber in it and they were unwavering in the belief that SFxT was the best game ever, while others got into the game with the mentality of "I was never good at melee, but I wanna be good at the next game". Then a competitive scene arose from that where they all use the auto-block and auto-parry gems and consistently try to time each others out and consider nothing to be wrong with it.
The Street Fighter community would be severely appalled by it, to which the SFxT community would retaliate with claims such as "SFxT is the newer game, so it's better" and "Street Fighter sucks. It's all about combos and hard commands. I want to play a game where my tr00 geni0us (always misspelled) shines without being hindered by an unnecessary execution barrier like blocking the right direction or throw-teching".
The Street Fighter community would look down on the SFxT community pretty hard. The SF community thought that SFIV sucked before it was fixed, something that will never happen in Brawl.
--> The problem, at its core, is not an issue of "respect" or "tolerance"; it's an issue of understanding and comprehension. The misunderstanding that smash is not a fighting game comes from the evaluation of the games genre based on convention. For instance, the fgc scrubs that think that Smash is not a fighting game think that a fighting game is defined by having health bars and walls, etc. Last night, Wobbles gave this excellent spiel that I can't recreate on how the philosophical properties of competitive smash were at their core identical to that of other fighting games. It's those properties that define a fighting game, not the variable conventions.
Respect and tolerance are only persuasive factors. It's usually easier to be persuaded when the other party exhibits respect because we humans are competitive animals that sometimes can't quite divorce the difference between the truth and what is convenient.
However, through respect alone, we're not going to make the FGC suddenly consider us a fighting game although it may make it respect us. A human may love his dog to no end, but that does imply that the person may understand the dog as a human. Some slave owners loved and respected their black slaves, but they erroneously misunderstood them as subhumans because they didn't have the knowledge or understanding that the American public has nowadays.
What needs to happen is that knowledge on melee needs to get out. That Maximilian dude had a great point, and the main focus of the melee community right now should be content creation. A thorough argument that undeniably proves that smash is a fighting game needs to be developed and streamlined, and EVO exposure is the gateway to do so with authority.
Even if smash is to be considered a fighting game, it may still get the treatment that Mortal Kombat is getting. "OMG this game sucks, I can't mash c. lp into an 8 hit combo, do aerial raves, and it doesn't have 9 year old cliche girls with visible cameltoe upskirts and obnoxious predictable voices for my virgin lardass to masturbate to. People only like it because it has gore omg".
In order to minimize that, and significantly increase the smash hype that we ALL want in EVO, people that haven't been properly introduced to the game need to be... properly introduced to it. If the melee community could organize and pull out a couple of professionally produced videos with well-written scripts, get competent people or even professionals to perform in them, and get these efforts published in fgc websites such as SRK or get linked by Max's channel, the view count and hype for smash will undoubtedly rise significantly. The potential for this has already been demonstrated when Vectorman's Eggstinction II was featured in SRK. The feedback from people with no melee experience was positive.
Justin Wong says he loves watching melee, and that's because, although he says he's not good at it, he knows what's going on. I can watch games like the new KoF, Soul Calibur, etc on hours on end because, although I no longer play the series, I understand what's happening. This knowledge increases the experience significantly; what to someone may be a showing of two people playing a game becomes a spectacle to those that are initiated.
To a fighting game player whose experience with spacing is walking back and for with Chun Li trying to space pokes and sweeps, the crazy movement in Melee will just look to them like silly unnecessary dancing where people are just pushing back and forth on the stick, and not realize the minute nuances and the technical requirement that goes into it. This is why content needs to be out INTRODUCING the gameplay mechanics alongside matches and combo videos.
Ideally, if such a project was to take off. Smash and its subgenre could be considered an fgc common. The Namco development of Smash 4 could even potentially be influenced by the avid competitive scene, as we need to show that there is money and a following waiting to be capitalized upon. Sony is already taking steps in that direction, although they can't quite capitalize in Melee's idiosyncratic competitive appeal.
Oh god I'm sorry if everything I've said has already been mentioned. I didn't even read past the first page.
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
That was an excellent post, noirscythe.
Put that **** in the OP.
Smooth Criminal
Put that **** in the OP.
Smooth Criminal
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2008
- Messages
- 7,187
*clap *
Except Brawl actually did hurt Melee, a lot.
Hating on the Brawl community doesn't make sense because it's been a symbiotic relationship recently, but hating on the game itself, as an inferior sequel that almost strangled our community and made us an unwarranted laughing stock to the rest of the FGC, is understandable.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
the FGC's hate (read: hate from a vocal minority that likely doesn't even attend tournaments) is out of ignorance; ours is out of complete, total knowledge.
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2010
- Messages
- 1,464
Tastes.
You may know that hitstun is low in brawl, but it's your taste for technically hard combos that make it sound like 'brawl sucks'.
Tastes. Don't assume others have yours.
Brawl has less depth and a lower skill ceiling, so in fighting game circles it is going to look objectively worse to experienced players. Melee is one of the deepest fighters that exists, which gives it a longevity Brawl will never have.Tastes.
You may know that hitstun is low in brawl, but it's your taste for technically hard combos that make it sound like 'brawl sucks'.
Tastes. Don't assume others have yours.
This is part of the reason that I like watching Brawl but hate playing it. The mental battles and the money on the line keeps interest if you know the players and the tactics within the game. Actually playing Brawl is boring because there's nothing fun to do in that game unless you have money on the line. There is no hype in Brawl outside of a LF and GFs set.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
"Hey guys I know you don't like X game but just keep in mind that everyone has opinions and they can't be wrong! Different strokes for different folks! Opinions!"
Thank you for being THAT guy. THAT guy that contributes absolutely no new information to the discussion whatsoever. You read our arguments with the assumption that we all (ignore Varist, guy doesn't even go to tournaments) truly believe that Super Smash Bros. Brawl for the Nintendo Wii is objectively an inferior competitive game to Super Smash Bros. Melee for the Nintendo GameCube. Rather than writing out points to why you personally disagree with what game mechanics we find conducive to competition, 95% of responses from those who "prefer" Brawl are exactly like yours.
We get it. We got it 5 years ago. Somehow, though, on just about every other subject, I've seen decent discussion on things that are EVEN MORE opinion based. Pepsi vs Coke, DC vs Marvel, Boobs vs Butt. Why is it that the majority of Brawl players take someone's grievances with the game or its mechanics as a personal attack? Jesus. I don't like Coke, but that doesn't mean I hate the people that drink it. What an absurd idea.
I pointed out the fallacious logic of the OP. The two are not comparable. The FGC's Smash haters haven't even played the game, nor do they want to give it a shot. Contrarily, most of the Melee players here are the people that were more excited for Brawl than you ever were. We loved how competitive Smash was in Melee, and lots of us respected Smash 64 too. We made life-long friendships, traveled the country, spent countless hours of effort and practice, all for competitive Smash. There was no indication that competitive Smash would change drastically. No one wanted Brawl to be a great game more than we did. As much as we all love Melee, most of us realized that there are very obvious places to improve upon it both in general and as a competitive game. More characters? More legal stages? Fewer clone-ish characters? Better balance? A relevant Online system? The removal of Jigglypuff from the game? There was absolutely nothing in the world we could be more excited for than a sequel to the game we loved so much.
Then, the game came out. A lot of us imported Japanese Wii's or a Friiloader, and a Japanese copy of Brawl to get just a month jump on a fresh metagame. We put hours into the game, figuring out what worked and what didn't, what we could do and what we couldn't. We tried to play it in tournament, and we discovered most of the ATs the Brawl community enjoys today. Something seemed off, but we thought that maybe it was just because of how proficient we were at Melee that made it feel so good and be so fun, and that Brawl would be the same way after we played it for a while. But as we got better at the game, we enjoyed it less and less. We quickly realized not that Brawl's hitstun is low, but that the victim could act directly out of it, making it not even actual hitstun. We noticed that the shieldstun was absurdly low, that powershielding was easy as ****, and that how short the shield release animation was made dropping your shield and doing something often a faster punish than jumping out of it. We noticed that the lack of movement options made the depth of positioning and spacing particularly shallow. Safe play was no longer a sophisticated art of intelligent positioning and precision, but almost a fact of existence. We realized that the dynamic ledge game we once knew was now almost completely dumbed down. One of the most beautiful things of Smash that set it apart from all other fighters, the concept of recovery and edgeguarding, was all but removed entirely.
We even discovered some combos, but we realized that they lacked the type of depth and interaction that Melee's combos always presented. The "Combos" almost always took place below tumble, which for whatever reason does not allow trajectory DI. The kind of combos present in Brawl are like that of a traditional fighter. The victim simply waits until it's over, and how long it lasts is entirely up to the attacker's execution. For a game often defended for "being more about the mental game than pressing buttons," its high level play sure doesn't lend itself to that philosophy. IC's CGs, the D-throw CGs of Pikachu/King DDD/Falco. Diddy's Bananas -> anything. ZSS's Dsmash stuff. None of it is mental game. It's pure, unadulterated execution, something almost non-existent in Melee. Anecdotally, the more I learned about Brawl and its mechanics, the more convinced I was of its lack of depth. Now, I'd be willing to wager that I understand more about Brawl than even the most stolid Brawl defenders.
But no. No matter what I say, no matter how deep I go into why exactly I prefer one game over the other, no matter how many aspects of game mechanics present in Brawl that I explain to you that you yourself never knew, none of you will ever respond properly. You'll still be going "Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man," until the day Smash 4 comes out, and then you'll move to that. Because, at your core, you probably don't even like competitive Brawl. You like the idea of competitive Smash, and you'll play the newest Smash game with no regard to its value as a competitive game. And then you get offended when someone says that a video game that you play (but don't truly care that much about) isn't very good. Even worse, you somehow get offended when someone describes why they personally (OPINION-BASED) think that game isn't very good. I almost don't understand. Whenever someone states that Melee is bad compared to X game, I have absolutely no problem articulating why I disagree. I find it enjoyable, thought-provoking, and healthy to discuss such things. However, I did say that I almost don't understand. I see the true reality. Where I would disagree and describe why, you throw your hands in the air and cry flaming/trolling. This isn't because your opposition is flaming or trolling you. The fact of the matter is, you're insecure about your preference. You know full well the reasons you play Brawl, and you know that they're fairly shallow, which prompts you to play the "opinion" card. It isn't because there's "more thinking involved," or any other more astute cases you could make for Brawl. You play it because it's the newest game. It has the most characters. It might even have your favorite character. It has prettier graphics. I get it, it's perfectly understandable. I don't hate you for it. That'd be ridiculous. You're probably a pretty cool dude. But it's not enough for me. I can only tolerate a loss of depth up to a certain threshold in exchange for more content, better graphics, and a fresh metagame. And in MY opinion, Brawl passes that threshold exponentially. You're free to disagree with it. In fact, I encourage you to. I won't get offended. It'd be extremely boring if everyone agreed with me all the time. However, "That's your opinion," does not constitute a valid argument, and is completely devoid of content. You're almost as bad as the contentless Brawl bashers posting "brawl sucks" and nothing else if you do that. Almost, but not quite.
EDIT: Note: When I say "You" in the above paragraph, I'm mostly referring to the general group of Brawl players that you belong in/represent, Teneban, not you specifically. Also, happy birthday.
Either way, this thread will probably be locked soon. As demonstrated by Varist and others, there are people on both sides that clearly cannot handle such a discussion with respect and class. Those people come out in droves in a public discussion thread. A nuisance and a frustration at the same time. If the thread does get locked, feel free to PM me with actual content. I look forward to it.
>Implying being brief about how much Brawl sucks does not have as much respect and class as typing one million paragraphs about how much Brawl sucks
>Implying you need "respect and class" to be qualified to talk about a videogame on the internet
>having autism
>Implying you need "respect and class" to be qualified to talk about a videogame on the internet
>having autism
Bad Cupboard
Smash Apprentice
strong bad dropping that truth bomb
Mr.Jackpot
Smash Lord
Strong Bad that was beautiful
Doser
Smash Ace
The kid who green texts is calling other people autistic. Amazing.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
There really ought to be a single thread dedicated to brawl vs melee.
People can't even talk about L canceling. That thread would inspire so much negativity.
edit:
Things like that Doser, you obviously disagree with which is fine (I do too) that but the comment you left added absolutely nothing, was baseless, and wasn't even witty. Does green text mean anything? If you want to rebuttal then use some substance.
I'm not attacking you but serious discussion is almost nonexistent on these boards.
D
Deleted member
Guest
agree with SB. i spent 3 years in the BBR studying brawl, helping with rulesets, being the face of the metaknight anti-ban side. we took a BBR photograph at the first APEX. we were all there for everything man.
FGC does not treat melee the same way melee treats brawl. if the FGC does something, we can just ignore them. when brawl is bad, it actually made competitive smash worse as a whole. let that sink in for a second. brawl is so bad that it made our game and community worse simply by association. that's incredible. it took us half a decade to recover from some percentage of that damage.
we really wanted it to be good, more than anybody. we were wrong. it has nothing to do with class, subjectivity, or taste. we don't hate you for it. brawl is just not a good game.
FGC does not treat melee the same way melee treats brawl. if the FGC does something, we can just ignore them. when brawl is bad, it actually made competitive smash worse as a whole. let that sink in for a second. brawl is so bad that it made our game and community worse simply by association. that's incredible. it took us half a decade to recover from some percentage of that damage.
we really wanted it to be good, more than anybody. we were wrong. it has nothing to do with class, subjectivity, or taste. we don't hate you for it. brawl is just not a good game.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
You justify your contentless posts by saying you're being brief. This is analogous to posting in a tier list thread "Falco is better than Fox," not elaborating on why because you want to "be brief." I shouldn't have to explain why this is ****ing stupid.
It's not about qualification. It's about quality. There's a reason my name is purple and yours isn't, and it isn't just because I don't greentext.
Right. Spend more time on 4chan, you'll definitely develop better social skills that way.
You are toxic to these boards and the Smash community, and in your current state we would be better off without you. I am putting you on my ignore list and I encourage everyone else who sees this to do the same.
outofphase
Smash Apprentice
i dont consider myself to be highly knowledgeable about either brawl or melee, but melee does take more skill, and it does take more thought. there isnt really any denying that. i can go into more detail and would entertain such an argument with anybody who isnt trolling. i think strong bad has a very legitimate point concerning brawl players being insecure with the knowledge that they like brawl over melee for shallow reasons. not that its a horrible thing, but that influx of players who like games for things like graphics and such clashed hard with the melee players who play because they like the actual workings of the game. i have always felt like that was the largest contributor to why things got so bad between brawl and melee. melee players hated that their scene, who had gained recognition through mlg and evo, got infiltrated by people who didnt like what they liked about smash. they saw a bunch of kids show up, play a watered down version of their game, and take their spot in important competitive gaming events. i think most brawl players understand on some level that this is the truth. they understand that brawl as a game and a community made melee look bad. thats why they get defensive about brawl when melee players bash it. they know the game itself doesnt stand up to the competitive standards of melee, and that they honestly don't fit well with the melee players because melee players value those standards while brawlers kinda dont. take into consideration that an online forum is where brawl and melee cross, throw an inevitable melee troll/instigator into the mix and you wind up with every thread on smashboards being a potential melee vs brawl flame war. thats gonna breed alot of animosity and drive the wedge plenty deep. i have only been coming to smashboards since like halfway through 2011(had a different account), but it seems pretty obvious that this is the cause of all the turmoil. would you guys say this is a fair summary/conclusion?
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Yes, it may be a tad too against brawl players because they could just simply like it for X reason. But yes. Welcome to the level headed club.
Teshie U
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2013
- Messages
- 1,594
so basically , new players enterring the smash scene is bad if they dont like melee for the reasons u like melee?
what SB and u are saying is that brawl turned out to be not to your liking (like hardcore fans seem to feel about every sequel) and brawl's community makes u look bad?
its kinda funny because most of the people on srk feel that melee would make fighting games look bad. it just seems that all you points apply to any game that let people down.
i can imagine how you felt expecting melee 2 and not getting what you wanted, but ive never heard of any game or movie turning out that way.
tldr its bad because its not melee and melee is bad because its not a real fighter
what SB and u are saying is that brawl turned out to be not to your liking (like hardcore fans seem to feel about every sequel) and brawl's community makes u look bad?
its kinda funny because most of the people on srk feel that melee would make fighting games look bad. it just seems that all you points apply to any game that let people down.
i can imagine how you felt expecting melee 2 and not getting what you wanted, but ive never heard of any game or movie turning out that way.
tldr its bad because its not melee and melee is bad because its not a real fighter
D
Deleted member
Guest
i don't necessarily disagree with SRK though. our games really just aren't that similar and i could see that causing some kind of tension. i don't think any of the melee players truly wanted the third smash game to be melee 2.0
outofphase
Smash Apprentice
^^^^
it not bad because its not melee. its bad because its not as competitive or deep as melee. i dont care what srk forums say because i dont think melee is a true fighting game either.
it not bad because its not melee. its bad because its not as competitive or deep as melee. i dont care what srk forums say because i dont think melee is a true fighting game either.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
I am so glad you said that. A lot of people beg for people to consider Smash a "fighting game." Whether or not anyone thinks it is a fighting game is entirely irrelevant. Does how we classify smash really attach any worth while meaning to it? I say no. Would you agree?
Meaningless blanket statement which should not accrue a response^
Is that a serious response?
And no that is not with either of them said.
outofphase
Smash Apprentice
i agree. i think alot of smasher feel like being fgc is the only was we can legitimize ourselves. its ok to make comparisons, but why we dont embrace smash's differences more ill never know.
I suppose that depending on your definition of fighting game, you could say that Melee isn't a true fighting game. It is very far removed in terms of a lot of mechanical details compared other traditional fighters along the lines of SF, MvC, etc.
I dunno if I'd say brawl made smash as a whole far worse in terms of competition and community, but maybe i'm not thinking of the other scenarios (brawl never came out, brawl was actually melee 2.0) hard enough. If anyone's willing to try their hands at this sort of projection, I'd be down to read that.
I dunno if I'd say brawl made smash as a whole far worse in terms of competition and community, but maybe i'm not thinking of the other scenarios (brawl never came out, brawl was actually melee 2.0) hard enough. If anyone's willing to try their hands at this sort of projection, I'd be down to read that.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
I'm fine with it/us trying to be considered FGC. Getting into FG tournaments is always good. I would call this a fighting game because you literally fight and don't do much else. It's just unique. However if someone feels different than I do, well then it's just too bad for me.
I think Umbreon said it pretty spot on. I can see what he means. I wouldn't say far worse, but worse.
Well, now that I'm in a thinking mode, I'm guessing reasons for this view would be:
As a different game from Melee, it drew people to Brawl and away from Melee.
As the newer game in the series, it drew more outside attention to it than to Melee.
Which resulted in:
Less newer players coming into Melee, more players leaving, and thus weaker community.
Less competitive venues for Melee outside the community (EVO, MLG, etc.) due to Brawl taking up the spotlight.
And from the little stuff I know about Brawl, I do recognize there are quite a few mechanics that are detrimental to competitive play.
I dunno though, I guess I'm just interested in discussing how Melee would be affected if Brawl didn't exist.
As a different game from Melee, it drew people to Brawl and away from Melee.
As the newer game in the series, it drew more outside attention to it than to Melee.
Which resulted in:
Less newer players coming into Melee, more players leaving, and thus weaker community.
Less competitive venues for Melee outside the community (EVO, MLG, etc.) due to Brawl taking up the spotlight.
And from the little stuff I know about Brawl, I do recognize there are quite a few mechanics that are detrimental to competitive play.
I dunno though, I guess I'm just interested in discussing how Melee would be affected if Brawl didn't exist.
>Setting up a strawman like that
>Thinking every declaration requires twenty paragraphs a post from each poster
>Implying I want a purple name
>Getting mad over greentext
>Using League of Legends terminology
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