Food for thought.

[Trypt]

"Hey guys I know you don't like X game but just keep in mind that everyone has opinions and they can't be wrong! Different strokes for different folks! Opinions!"

Thank you for being THAT guy.
...

While I agree with most of this post, I think you miss the point I was trying to make in OP. I'm not saying that we have to accept Brawl as a better game than it is (or you believe it is, because believe it or not, there WAS a small subset of players that when brawl came out, transferred exclusively to brawl from melee, and never went back), or even that we have to pretend like we like it. But we have to accept that ALL fighting games deserve to be a part of the FGC. Brawl is NO LESS a fighting game than melee is, and if we don't treat that game (or the community) with the respect it deserves, we're holding it to the same standard that the rest of the FGC is holding us to. IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU PUT A MILLION HOURS INTO BRAWL, all this hate for their game and community aren't justified. When it comes down to it, the reason that you eventually came back to melee isn't because it's a worse game, it's because YOU didn't like it as much. I hate to be THAT GUY, but it IS a matter of opinion. In fact, you could argue a game like Brawl (more spacing and punish oriented) is a hell of a lot more like a traditional fighter than Melee is.

I'm not saying you have to love Brawl as a game, but you should at least accept it as part of our community, because trying to be divided on this front is hypocritical when we're trying to be accepted on others.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

When it comes down to it, the reason that you eventually came back to melee isn't because it's a worse game, it's because YOU didn't like it as much. I hate to be THAT GUY, but it IS a matter of opinion. In fact, you could argue a game like Brawl (more spacing and punish oriented) is a hell of a lot more like a traditional fighter than Melee is.

I think the point of Strong Bad's post was that it's not as simple as mere taste. Anybody can like or dislike something on a whim. Finding concrete reasons why, however, is another matter entirely. That's precisely what's grabbing his proverbial goat. Frankly, I don't blame him. It's hard discuss something meaningful when people reflexively play the "just because" card. It's shallow and pedantic, and he doesn't have to respect it at all.

And I hate to burst your bubble, but not all fighting games deserve to be part of the FGC. You speak as if there's some intrinsic, inalienable right here. There isn't. You either have the community and the support for it, or you don't. That's the bottom line.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Trypt]

I think the point of Strong Bad's post was that it's not as simple as mere taste. Anybody can like or dislike something on a whim. Finding concrete reasons why, however, is another matter entirely. That's precisely what's grabbing his proverbial goat.

But that's just the thing, you don't HAVE to have reasons to dislike or like something. That's why their opinions. They're subject to every particular persons taste. I understand how it can be aggravating trying to 'debate' or 'convince' someone why your game is better when they refuse to raise valid points, but I don't understand why we have to brand a game as "better". I don't understand why we have to label melee as superior as brawl before we can move towards trying to be a community.

Frankly, I don't blame him. It's hard discuss something meaningful when people reflexively play the "just because" card. It's shallow and pedantic, and he doesn't have to respect it at all.

I guess this is where we have a pretty inherent difference. I firmly believe everyone deserves respect, despite their ability to justify their stances.

And I hate to burst your bubble, but not all fighting games deserve to be part of the FGC. You speak as if there's some intrinsic, inalienable right here. There isn't. You either have the community and the support for it, or you don't. That's the bottom line.

I hope you realize that as far as fighting games go, Melee is the odd one out. There aren't very many fighting games (PSAS aside) that deviate this much from the norm. Why do you think small developer games like Skull Girls had the support of the FGC and not Melee? It's because most of the FGC is accept because there aren't very many titles as different as Melee. If we feel like WE belong in the FGC, than it's very hypocritical of us to not feel like everyone should belong.

Personally, I feel as if every game should have the chance to prove themselves. If a game has the support behind it from it's own community, there is no reason why it shouldn't get the opportunity to assimilate into a larger community such as the FGC.

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

Trypt, opinions are based on reasons. Opinions don't just come randomly out of the blue and become imprinted in your mind.

I think we need to stop beating the dead horse of Brawlsux and taking socializing advice from pony convention social butterflies and focus entirely on my previous post.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I concur.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Trypt]

Trypt, opinions are based on reasons. Opinions don't just come randomly out of the blue and become imprinted in your mind.

What's your favorite color? Why is it your favorite color? Why is it better than other colors?

 

[ZelDan]

What's your favorite color? Why is it your favorite color? Why is it better than other colors?

Orange

I find it more aesthetically pleasing

I find other colors less aesthetically pleasing in comparsion.

Not very detailed or in-depth reasons, but reasons nonetheless. People generally don't like something just for absolutely nothing. But that can also apply to Brawl, and I do think many Brawlers do genuinly enjoy the gameplay and perhaps not always for "shallow" reasons, they just might not necessarily be able to argue it well, or really want to bother to argue it.

So I do agree with you to a degree in that sometimes people just like things but for reaons they may not be able to articulate, or not articulate very well atleast.

 

[Oro?!]

The difference between arguing colors and games is that there is concrete evidence of what can make a game good or bad. Colors are completely subjective and there is no such thing as an inherent bad color.

 

[Trypt]

The difference between arguing colors and games is that there is concrete evidence of what can make a game good or bad. Colors are completely subjective and there is no such thing as an inherent bad color.

And there's no inherently bad mechanics in brawl (well, with the exception of tripping). Everything that you don't like, isn't BAD, it's YOU not liking it.

Edit:
And there isn't concrete evidence of what makes games good or bad. I love World of Warcraft for example. I played that game for 8 years. It's a very successful game, but many people find it to be dull and repetitive.

The Final Fantasy series is very highly regarded, however I don't enjoy the rather shallow (IN MY OPINION) gameplay of it.

 

[Trypt]

Obviously we just disagree. So oh well.

 

[BTmoney]

Someone should just say they like Brawl because it is more simple, forgiving and it has better graphics. Someone say that.

 

[Oro?!]

If there weren't inherent characteristics that make games better or worse, then game design wouldn't matter in the slightest. Take that idea next level and ask what makes a good COMPETETIVE game and relate it to other competetive games. Brawl is a good game. Brawl is not a good competetive game. I think its amazing how much depth was sucked out from Brawl so don't take it in a negative way. People can compete in literally anything, but not every competition has equal merit.

 

[Trypt]

If there weren't inherent characteristics that make games better or worse, then game design wouldn't matter in the slightest. Take that idea next level and ask what makes a good COMPETETIVE game and relate it to other competetive games. Brawl is a good game. Brawl is not a good competetive game. I think its amazing how much depth was sucked out from Brawl so don't take it in a negative way. People can compete in literally anything, but not every competition has equal merit.

So by that standard, other traditional fights such as SSF4 and UMVC3 are much worse than melee too, because they aren't NEARLY as deep?

You're comparing Brawl to melee. Your qualifications for a good game seem to be: "Does this game have the same mechanics as SSBM?" or "Is this game as deep or technical as SSBM?"

If not: bad game.

That's not how it works. They are simply DIFFERENT games. That's like if I were to say "Starcraft 2 is MUCH deeper and a MUCH HIGHER skill cap then Melee, by comparison, Melee sucks as far as a competitive game goes. Obviously I don't feel that way. They're both outstanding competitive games, they are just DIFFERENT.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Nice sweeping generalizations, chum.

Would you like a shovel to bury yourself with?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Trypt]

I just don't understand why everyone compares everything to Melee. Why can't things be both good and different? If you can lead me to some conclusion about why a game HAD to be like Melee to be good, then I guess that's... Something. I just don't follow that logic.

 

[BTmoney]

Someone should just say they like Brawl because it is more simple, forgiving and it has better graphics. Someone say that.

Wow ^^^ look at that insight.
Can't argue with that.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

People can compete in literally anything, but not every competition has equal merit.

This (or at the very least, the concept behind it) is what heralded the end of the argument.

Also, lol @ Tactician.

Smooth Criminal

 

[ZelDan]

While I think that Brawl is more simple and shallow compared to Melee, I will say that I don't agree that Brawl is a "SUPER EASY, NO SKILL" as some may say. It still has things that need top be learned like match-ups, character-specific stuff, DI, and probably other stuff I'm not thinking of or don't know of.

That and considering that Brawl tournaments generally get high turn-outs like Melee tournies do AFAIK, I'd say there is definitely merit and value in being a top player in Brawl.

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

What's your favorite color? Why is it your favorite color? Why is it better than other colors?

You're confusing affinity (which is also based on reasons) with opinions now.

Saying I like something is not equivalent to saying that something is good. Such way of thinking causes glitches in logic.

 

[Bing]

I can't believe how ridiculous this "debate" became. Everyone has there own opnions, wants, desires, loves etc. If someone looks at melee and thinks "Hey this looks fast paced" and then looks at brawl and thinks "This is much slower and easier to control"(Just a random example not trying to generalize or anything) and chooses to play brawl thats their own business, why certain people feel its necessary to attack one another is completely senseless. Each game does in fact have a legitimate competitive factor to them, the fact that they're so different I view as a good thing. Like I just said, everyone has their own tastes, and if each game was identical(Outside of character selection and graphics) the community would be much smaller because we have less of an available selection of games.

Also, someone earlier mentioned that smash should stay seperate from the TGC which I disagree with. Smash belongs in the FCG for a few reasons, mainly that it iS a fighting game, its just a little "outside the norm" if you will. Now the main reason I think Smash should be a part of the FGC is because the FGC tournaments generally attract more attention, get more sponsors and have larger pots.

Okay Im done for now, Also the argument going on right now is dumb. Who the **** compares colours to games -_-.

 

[Trypt]

You're confusing affinity (which is also based on reasons) with opinions now.

Saying I like something is not equivalent to saying that something is good. Such way of thinking causes glitches in logic.

Okay then. So you saying you don't like Brawl, doesn't mean it isn't good.

 

[Problem2]

Trypt. Instead of repeatedly stating that you have your own opinions and taste, state your reason for liking Brawl. Why do you like Brawl?

 

[Trypt]

Trypt. Instead of repeatedly stating that you have your own opinions and taste, state your reason for liking Brawl. Why do you like Brawl?

I don't like Brawl particularly. But that doesn't mean it's a bad game.

That's not even the point I wanted to make with this whole thread. I just wanted to say that even though we don't like Brawl, that doesn't mean we should look down on their community.

Everyone ran a different direction with the discussion though, and didn't feel like arguing that point, so I just joined in what was being discussed.

I was more or less playing devil's advocate for Brawl, since this is the Melee forum after all. Just because I don't like Brawl doesn't mean it's community deserves less respect.

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

Okay then. So you saying you don't like Brawl, doesn't mean it isn't good.

I can also posit an argument as to why it's not good, but it would require to establish most fundamental premises that can't be proven wrong or that everyone agrees with from which the conclusion that brawl sucks follows. But that does not matter.


Using the word "opinion" should be a bannable offense now. It's misused to such an extent that it's severely appalling. Middle school needs to reevaluate their garbage logic lessons.

Everybody read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I'm_entitled_to_my_opinion


This thread stopped being food for thought, and it became more like "common rhetorical intellectual pollutant".

 

[Trypt]

I can also post an argument as to why it's not good, but it would require to establish most fundamental premises that can't be proven wrong or that everyone agrees with from which the conclusion that brawl sucks follows. But that does not matter.

This is the problem. You CAN'T do that. You cannot create a logical premise as to why Brawl sucks. Because any point that could make (i.e. no shieldstun, dropping shield is faster than jumping oos, etc.) are all things that some players could prefer.

 

[Strong Badam]

That's not even the point I wanted to make with this whole thread. I just wanted to say that even though we don't like Brawl, that doesn't mean we should look down on their community.

Most of the people worth their salt don't. You're arguing against an invisible enemy; those who do as you described are in fact not even a part of the Melee community, such as Varist.

again, posting "yeah well that's just your opinion" is not only contentless but frustrating and I would consider it trolling. you read an argument of why mozart is a great artist and go "but bananas are fruit," it's completely off-topic and irrelevant. if YOU prefer having lower shieldstun, describe why! shouldn't be too hard. until then, stop wasting my time by pointing out an irrelevant fact incessantly.

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

This is the problem. You CAN'T do that. You cannot create a logical premise as to why Brawl sucks. Because any point that could make (i.e. no shieldstun, dropping shield is faster than jumping oos, etc.) are all things that some players could prefer.

Premises such as "no shieldstun" aren't fundamental. More fundamental premises would be regarding fundamental competitive philosophy.


There are also other easier potential arguments such as the following inductive argument:

-Premise 1: X is a better game than Y if everyone that can play both at the top competitive level or with equal success rate thinks X is better than Y.
-Premise 2: Everyone that can play both Melee and Brawl at the top competitive level or with equal success rate thinks Melee is better than Brawl.
-Conclusion by Modus Ponens: Melee is a better game than Brawl.

The argument is inductive because premise 1 is not necessarily true, but it is derived through strong induction and is cogent.

 

[Bing]

This whole discussion really should be dropped. It started out as the whole #OneUnit thing and has crumbled to this... ****.

 

[JPOBS]

Why is the tier-list thread locked?

 

[Bing]

Last time I looked back through was because was becoming a debate between characters... with no actual reasonings being discussed. So basically;

"Falco is better then Fox because Laser"

 

[Deleted member]

Someone should just say they like Brawl because it is more simple, forgiving and it has better graphics. Someone say that.

I like Brawl because I'm a sadistic psychopath and I want to watch people to inflict suffering and misery on each other.

This might actually be the best reason to like the game.

 

[BTmoney]

I like Brawl because I'm a sadistic psychopath and I want to watch people to inflict suffering and misery on each other.

This might actually be the best reason to like the game.

Lol

Last time I looked back through was because was becoming a debate between characters... with no actual reasonings being discussed. So basically;

"Falco is better then Fox because Laser"

Or Because Leffen

#OneUnit though.
I feel like when we disagree there is a perceived animosity. I hope there is none.

 

[Bones0]

Premises such as "no shieldstun" aren't fundamental. More fundamental premises would be regarding fundamental competitive philosophy.


There are also other easier potential arguments such as the following inductive argument:

-Premise 1: X is a better game than Y if everyone that can play both at the top competitive level or with equal success rate thinks X is better than Y.
-Premise 2: Everyone that can play both Melee and Brawl at the top competitive level or with equal success rate thinks Melee is better than Brawl.
-Conclusion by Modus Ponens: Melee is a better game than Brawl.

The argument is inductive because premise 1 is not necessarily true, but it is derived through strong induction and is cogent.

Sounds like someone is taking Discrete Structures this semester.

 

[Omni]

FGC has "intra-hate" as well.

A lot of old school FGC players compare CvS2 and SF 3rd Strike (Melee) to SF4 (Brawl). The biggest difference is that the top players still migrated towards SF4 vanilla despite their dislike for it whereas Melee players stayed with Melee.

So one could say we already fit the bill of a FGC just because we hate on our own community.

Regardless, the less hate the better. There's nothing wrong with pushing your game up and smack talking other games, but some people make it too personal and go deep with it.

 

[BTmoney]

So one could say we already fit the bill of a FGC just because we hate on our own community.

LOL

Regardless, the less hate the better. There's nothing wrong with pushing your game up and smack talking other games, but some people make it too personal and go deep with it.

That sums it up

On a side note, I really do enjoy the large college student/college educated part of the community.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

On a side note, I really do enjoy the large college student/college educated part of the community.

Me too!

noirscythe, you're still a douchebag.

Smooth Criminal

 

[outofphase]

im going there. and for no reason.

get lost brawl ***s

 

[BTmoney]

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Oh yeah. What Omni said, too. It's okay to dislike a game for x reason, but don't make it personal. That's just silly.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Deleted member]

Oh yeah. What Omni said, too. It's okay to dislike a game for x reason, but don't make it personal. That's just silly.

Smooth Criminal

that's why noirscythe is a douchebag right? we're not getting personal.