The Smash Lab: What is it?

infomon · Dec 19, 2008

Hmmmmm.... tough question, dj.

Before your post I would have just assumed that clash bubbles are not a reliable way to determine hitbox overlap, for the conclusion you've reached: they appear at strange places, lol.

However, looking at your images, I think you've convinced me you were doing it right, lol. First I'll assert that when two hitboxes overlap, either one or both may clash causing a clash-bubble. (Actually, a hitbox can clash against a shield, starman-invincible hurtboxes, etc.) Also, I think the clash-bubble may appear anywhere along the overlap.

But your images further suggest, IMO, that the clash occurs along one of the edges of this overlap. In the Lucas image, I think the clash bubble is either at the rightmost edge of Snake's hitbox, or the rightmost edge of Lucas' hitbox. In the Sonic image..... yeah, haven't you ever hit someone backwards with Sonic's Fsmash? Well it happens

You can't do it to a standing opponent because their hurtboxes won't want to overlap, but you can walk someone into Sonic while he's charging the Fsmash and see that the hitbox is as disjoint (toward Sonic's back) as that image suggests.

It's still complicated to determine where exactly the clash bubble will appear, and from there solve the inverse problem: given position of the clash bubble, determine where the hitboxes and/or hurtboxes are. (Hmmmm, neat tangential idea: using starman-invincibility might help you get images of characters' hurtboxes, since they'll remain in place while the clash bubble hits them)

First problem: are there any attacks with hitboxes that are not [convex polygons]? Or if there's a single attack with multiple hitboxes that count as the same one (ie. clashing with one counts as clashing with the other). Those would be tricky.

But let's assume that it's two convex polygon hitboxes overlap and it's a clash. The intersection of the two polygons is itself a convex polygon (hmmmmm wait is that correct? anyone have a theorem for me?? yaaay geometry :laugh:

) Regardless, I assert that the clash bubble appears along the exterior of that intersection polygon... the problem is determining where. Like, even in the Snake vs. Lucas image, maybe the hitboxes are more disjoint than shown, and the bubble's along the top of the intersection polygon (note that it's above Lucas' stick).

*shrug* I dunno how we'd be able to figure that out..... but at least we can use them to give us bounds on where the hitboxes overlap.

Sorry for wall-of-rambling-text :psycho:

Edit: What exactly do you mean by the "disjoint" of an attack? I guess you want to know the amount that the hitbox separates from the hurtbox? This is equivalent to just wondering where the hitboxes and hurtboxes are, in all of a character's different states/frames. The best way IMO would be to make a hitbox/hurtbox hack..... which would require some serious dev.work, but it's been suggested so much that I wonder if one of the haxx0r devs are trying to put this together? Once I get some time to play with the hax I can try my hand at some Brawl-disassembly......... mwahaa.....

infomon · Dec 19, 2008

Sorry for the double-post, but this is a totally different topic, and my posts are getting long :laugh:

I was wrong in one of my assumptions about momentum-cancelling. There is a period of time before you can escape histun with either an aerial, airdodge, Z-air (tether), or item-throw. However, 56k noticed that Wario can survive horizontal KOs better using his airdodge rather than his fastest aerial (his Fair afaict).

After some testing, it seems that the time before you can escape hitstun with an aerial is different than the time before you can escape it with an aerial.
[Video demonstration]

This raises a few important questions, that will be hard for me to answer before I start using homebrew hax. So I bring these questions to the Smash Lab:

1. What determines the length of time before you can abort hitstun with an airdodge/aerial/z-air/item-throw?
2. Are these lengths of time really different? How different?
3. Under what circumstances should each character prefer to use an aerial vs. an airdodge, as part of their optimal momentum-cancelling strategy? Will it depend on the amount of knockback (tedious), or just their trajectory / proximity to the killzones?

At this point, I'm pretty sure we'll need precise frame data for every characters' airdodge, aerials, Z-airs, and item-throws.

Finally, super-special-awesome-bonus-question:
Using a Jump or momentum-altering Special (except the "braking" ones) causes an extra additional boost to be tacked on to your knockback. What exactly determines the direction and amount of this extra boost? It's proportional to the amount of knockback force that remains on your character, and also in some way to the force that your move would normally have propelled you if you weren't in knockback. Or something like that.

Props to 56k for this discovery, and ColinJF for telling me about it (and all that crazy work on the knockback formula etc. in some other thread). Sorry about my previous accreditation mistake!!

Browny · Dec 19, 2008

infzy said:
Edit: What exactly do you mean by the "disjoint" of an attack? I guess you want to know the amount that the hitbox separates from the hurtbox? This is equivalent to just wondering where the hitboxes and hurtboxes are, in all of a character's different states/frames.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6147055#post6147055

Knowing the extent of the invisible hitbox is one thing, but determining where sonics hurtbox starts is another problem. my fav example, get sonic + DK to do an fsmash from each others maximum range. DK will get hit but sonic doesnt. its quite apparent that DK's fsmash has little (or no) disjoint whatsoever. So i cant use an attack without a disjoint to determine the range of sonics since the disjointed one will always win. that leaves me with things like snakes uptilt to work with, and that doesnt work too well :/

oh yeah also with the lucas pic, as i said in the caption i dont think the spark location has anything to do with the edge of one hitbox. when you compare it to the sonic pic above, snakes uptilt clearly hits further that the lucas pic would suggest

ColinJF · Dec 19, 2008

By the way, about the air dodge v. aerials thing, I did not discover it (I didn't claim to either, so sorry about that misunderstanding). I started looking at air dodging v. aerials after reading this thread in which it was already claimed that an air dodge was better.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211222&page=2

The credit for this discovery should go to 56k.

However, AA and I DO have an hypothesis about what is used to calculate the time before you can use an air dodge. It seems to be related to the "weight2" quantity mentioned in our other document, namely

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=210557

In particular, characters with a higher w2 seem to need to wait longer before they can act out of hitstun.

Endless Nightmares · Dec 19, 2008

Thanks ColinJF =] you're a class act

Adapt · Dec 19, 2008

ColinJF said:
By the way, about the air dodge v. aerials thing, I did not discover it (I didn't claim to either, so sorry about that misunderstanding). I started looking at air dodging v. aerials after reading this thread in which it was already claimed that an air dodge was better.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211222&page=2

The credit for this discovery should go to 56k.

However, AA and I DO have an hypothesis about what is used to calculate the time before you can use an air dodge. It seems to be related to the "weight2" quantity mentioned in our other document, namely

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=210557

In particular, characters with a higher w2 seem to need to wait longer before they can act out of hitstun.

Interesting... when I looked at the time that a character is in hitstun it seemed related to overall knockback, or in the case of the specific move I used to measure it: w1, not w2.

Jiggs, GaW, and Squirtle seemed to be more affected by hitstun. I used the consecutive hits counter to judge that statement though.

Browny · Dec 19, 2008

since we arent gonna be given a chance to apply, ill just leave this here instead

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211629

infomon · Dec 20, 2008

Awesome work djbrowny.

djbrowny said:
oh yeah also with the lucas pic, as i said in the caption i dont think the spark location has anything to do with the edge of one hitbox. when you compare it to the sonic pic above, snakes uptilt clearly hits further that the lucas pic would suggest

Hrrmmm, I guess you're right... but careful though. Snake's Utilt's hitbox might not have the same width at every frame! So depending on which frame you get the clash to happen, it might be more or less disjoint... maaaybe...... although he looks to be in exactly the same pose in both of your images, I wonder if he's in that state for multiple frames, perhaps?? Hmm, I guess I'm clutching at straws here. The only other option (if my theory is to be correct), is if Lucas's Fsmash doesn't even have a hitbox at his hands (unlikely, but worth checking I guess).... OR the clash is simply happening along the top of the hitbox-intersection-polygon, not at one of the corners. If that's actually the case, then it's very unfortunate for any attempt to infer hitbox/hurtbox information from the clash-bubble location.

ColinJF said:
By the way, about the air dodge v. aerials thing, I did not discover it (I didn't claim to either, so sorry about that misunderstanding).

Ah yes, this was my error (I assumed stuff from your PMs and ran with it lol), and I was away at smashfest tonight.. Sorry to you and 56k both! I've updated the info in the vid and in my post above. Thanx!

leafgreen386 · Dec 20, 2008

I think I've nearly figured out knockback and I believe I’ve figured out the game’s units. I just can't confirm any of this yet since I don't have access to a video camera for further testing. >_> Anyway...

When luigi uses his upB against a 0% jiggs, it gives a launch speed of 4000. In a zero gravity environment, jiggs will stop at almost (if not) exactly 6 and 4/5 stage builder blocks up in the air. The knockback lasts for what appears to be 35 frames.

Based on my knowledge of how regular vertical momentum works, I figured it may work based on a linear formula for calculating knockback each frame. So I tried to see how my data matched up with the formula:

k(f) = l – x*f

Where k is the knockback on frame f (note: not cumulative), l is the launch speed, and x is some number that declares the rate at which a character slows from knockback.

Now, this isn’t very useful on its own, so I threw it into a summation formula to obtain the cumulative knockback on a particular frame, resulting in the following:

k(f) = l*f – x*(f*(f + 1) / 2) = l*f – ((x*f^2 + x*f) / 2)

I have all values for this except for x, which can be obtained from the original formula fairly easily for when knockback is zero. It ends up being 4000/35, or ~114.286. So plugging stuff in...

k(f) = l*f – ((x*f^2 + x*f) / 2)
k(f) = 4000*f – (((4000/35)*f^2 + (4000/35)*f) / 2)

If this were correct, then jiggs should have flown 68,000 units worth of total knockback on frame 35. She should have flown roughly 50% of this distance on frame 10 and roughly 75% of this distance on frame 17. If you remember from what I said earlier, jiggs went 6 and 4/5 blocks from luigi’s upB, which would work out to each block being exactly 10,000 units. The 50% and 75% marks also appear to check out.

Unfortunately, I do not have access to footage of any other attacks that could prove or disprove this at this time. One of the things that’s really bugging me is that if this is true, if it’s the number of frames of knockback that is constant or the x value. Looking at an x value like the one found here makes it rather hard to believe that the x value would be the constant, however, playing with it a little shows that it would not be too farfetched to say that the x value was the constant, and that the actual x value was 114 or 115. The difference seen between frame 34 and frame 35 is very small, and I’ve had to review those two frames multiple times to make sure it was actually an increase in vertical position and not just a combination of animation changing and the camera moving down fooling me. As such, I’m still not convinced that that wasn’t the problem. If the x value is a constant of 115, then the knockback peaks at 67,575 units on frame 34, whereas if it were a constant of 114 it would peak at 68,180 units on frame 35. Both are very close to the experimental value of 68,000 units, so this will take a lot more testing to verify not only which value is the constant, but what that constant is if it is the x value. It does seem more likely to me that they would have made the x value the constant, though, and also that they would have made it 115 rather than 114.

phi1ny3 · Dec 20, 2008

infzy said:
Awesome work djbrowny.

Hrrmmm, I guess you're right... but careful though. Snake's Utilt's hitbox might not have the same width at every frame! So depending on which frame you get the clash to happen, it might be more or less disjoint... maaaybe...... although he looks to be in exactly the same pose in both of your images, I wonder if he's in that state for multiple frames, perhaps?? Hmm, I guess I'm clutching at straws here. The only other option (if my theory is to be correct), is if Lucas's Fsmash doesn't even have a hitbox at his hands (unlikely, but worth checking I guess).... OR the clash is simply happening along the top of the hitbox-intersection-polygon, not at one of the corners. If that's actually the case, then it's very unfortunate for any attempt to infer hitbox/hurtbox information from the clash-bubble location.

Ah yes, this was my error (I assumed stuff from your PMs and ran with it lol), and I was away at smashfest tonight.. Sorry to you and 56k both! I've updated the info in the vid and in my post above. Thanx!

Either multiple hitboxes, timing of them, or priority would explain the phenomenon.

MK26 · Dec 20, 2008

djbrowny said:
However my theory is quickly disproved when i stand snake and lucas right next to each other... clearly Snakes utilt has reached Lucas' hurtbox (you dont need to measure it, everyone knows how large its range is) and the location of the clank spark has nothing to do with the extent of a disjoint. Lucas' fsmash definitely hits further than the clank would indicate

Either Sonics entire body is a disjoint, or my idea is very wrong

Any two ground attacks that do within 10% damage of each other will clank if their hitboxes overlap before one hitbox overlaps with the other's hurtbox. These 2 pics didn't determine the extent of the disjoint, but the fact that you timed the attacks perfectly and that they do within 10% of each other.

Your disjoint work (the previous pics) only works at the maximum range of the attacks, not the minimum. You'd only be able to determine minimum disjoint by testing a disjointed aerial against a disjointed ground attack, and even then that sounds difficult.

ColinJF · Dec 20, 2008

leafgreen386 said:
I think I've nearly figured out knockback and I believe I’ve figured out the game’s units. I just can't confirm any of this yet since I don't have access to a video camera for further testing. >_> Anyway...

When luigi uses his upB against a 0% jiggs, it gives a launch speed of 4000. In a zero gravity environment, jiggs will stop at almost (if not) exactly 6 and 4/5 stage builder blocks up in the air. The knockback lasts for what appears to be 35 frames.

Based on my knowledge of how regular vertical momentum works, I figured it may work based on a linear formula for calculating knockback each frame. So I tried to see how my data matched up with the formula:

k(f) = l – x*f

Where k is the knockback on frame f (note: not cumulative), l is the launch speed, and x is some number that declares the rate at which a character slows from knockback.

Now, this isn’t very useful on its own, so I threw it into a summation formula to obtain the cumulative knockback on a particular frame, resulting in the following:

k(f) = l*f – x*(f*(f + 1) / 2) = l*f – ((x*f^2 + x*f) / 2)

I have all values for this except for x, which can be obtained from the original formula fairly easily for when knockback is zero. It ends up being 4000/35, or ~114.286. So plugging stuff in...

k(f) = l*f – ((x*f^2 + x*f) / 2)
k(f) = 4000*f – (((4000/35)*f^2 + (4000/35)*f) / 2)

If this were correct, then jiggs should have flown 68,000 units worth of total knockback on frame 35. She should have flown roughly 50% of this distance on frame 10 and roughly 75% of this distance on frame 17. If you remember from what I said earlier, jiggs went 6 and 4/5 blocks from luigi’s upB, which would work out to each block being exactly 10,000 units. The 50% and 75% marks also appear to check out.

Unfortunately, I do not have access to footage of any other attacks that could prove or disprove this at this time. One of the things that’s really bugging me is that if this is true, if it’s the number of frames of knockback that is constant or the x value. Looking at an x value like the one found here makes it rather hard to believe that the x value would be the constant, however, playing with it a little shows that it would not be too farfetched to say that the x value was the constant, and that the actual x value was 114 or 115. The difference seen between frame 34 and frame 35 is very small, and I’ve had to review those two frames multiple times to make sure it was actually an increase in vertical position and not just a combination of animation changing and the camera moving down fooling me. As such, I’m still not convinced that that wasn’t the problem. If the x value is a constant of 115, then the knockback peaks at 67,575 units on frame 34, whereas if it were a constant of 114 it would peak at 68,180 units on frame 35. Both are very close to the experimental value of 68,000 units, so this will take a lot more testing to verify not only which value is the constant, but what that constant is if it is the x value. It does seem more likely to me that they would have made the x value the constant, though, and also that they would have made it 115 rather than 114.

After I figure this out, I think I’ll put together what should hopefully be a highly accurate list of fall rates, based on the game’s own units. Although there are already fall rate lists around here, this is probably one of the more practical uses for this research, so I may as well do it. Seeing as I’ve already determined that there is no such thing as acceleration due to gravity in brawl, this should be as simple as running off the side of the largest stage and falling, then counting the number of frames it takes to pass exactly from one point to another. For the fast fall tests I’ll just have to replace the running off the stage part with a jump and fast fall, and since the fast fall rate replaces the normal fall rate instantly, it should be fine.

Although I believe your general approach is correct, the cumulative equation is not correct (in general). When being hit vertically, you can fast fall to decrease the total knockback, i.e., change the value at which your speed slows part way through. And for horizontal hits, air control serve an analogous purpose to fall speed if you hold toward the stage after using an aerial or air dodge.

However, your general approach per frame is probably correct, and also gives the following two results:
- the launch speed required to kill vertically is a function of w1, w2, fall speed, and distance to the blast zone
- the launch speed required to kill horizontally is a function of w1, w2, horizontal air speed, ... and a bunch of other stuff, like how double jumps alter momentum, as well as distance to the blast zone

In fact, I had suspected your approach just the other day, leading me to make this graph, which tells you the launch speed (wrongly called "knockback" in the picture since it was before your correction of terms in that other thread) required to kill a character of a given fall speed with Snake's up throw:

(Kills are useful here since it ensures the total distance crossed is the about the same.)

And as for practical application, getting fall speeds is good -- but the best practical application is that this allows us to determine the exact percents at which a given move kills each member of the cast from a simple formula.

M.K · Dec 20, 2008

As I have been on vacation for the past couple of days, can someone kindly reduce the information at hand to a brief summary of ideas?

Adapt · Dec 20, 2008

ColinJF said:
In fact, I had suspected your approach just the other day, leading me to make this graph, which tells you the launch speed (wrongly called "knockback" in the picture since it was before your correction of terms in that other thread) required to kill a character of a given fall speed with Snake's up throw:

(Kills are useful here since it ensures the total distance crossed is the about the same.)

And as for practical application, getting fall speeds is good -- but the best practical application is that this allows us to determine the exact percents at which a given move kills each member of the cast from a simple formula.

What are you using for fall speed here? (units)

whitefire240 · Dec 20, 2008

Heres what I think:

Sakurai put chain-grabs intentionally in, and wanted to make them have an end, like the IC have to always move forward, the have to hit a ledge. So it couldnt stall. He realized that DDD was too awesome to be nerfed in any way, and added a special circumstance when 5 chain grabs are made in a row on DDD, the character becomes unable to be grabbed simply.

Makes a ****load of sense, knowing Sakurai.

ColinJF · Dec 20, 2008

Adapt said:
What are you using for fall speed here? (units)

Ratio to Mario's fall speed.

leafgreen386 · Dec 20, 2008

ColinJF said:
Although I believe your general approach is correct, the cumulative equation is not correct (in general). When being hit vertically, you can fast fall to decrease the total knockback, i.e., change the value at which your speed slows part way through. And for horizontal hits, air control serve an analogous purpose to fall speed if you hold toward the stage after using an aerial or air dodge.

However, your general approach per frame is probably correct, and also gives the following two results:
- the launch speed required to kill vertically is a function of w1, w2, fall speed, and distance to the blast zone
- the launch speed required to kill horizontally is a function of w1, w2, horizontal air speed, ... and a bunch of other stuff, like how double jumps alter momentum, as well as distance to the blast zone

In fact, I had suspected your approach just the other day, leading me to make this graph, which tells you the launch speed (wrongly called "knockback" in the picture since it was before your correction of terms in that other thread) required to kill a character of a given fall speed with Snake's up throw:

(image)

(Kills are useful here since it ensures the total distance crossed is the about the same.)

And as for practical application, getting fall speeds is good -- but the best practical application is that this allows us to determine the exact percents at which a given move kills each member of the cast from a simple formula.

This is true. The total distance a character is sent is dependent upon other factors than just what I've listed. However, this should be correct for the distance a character flies due to knockback. Knockback, vertical motion, and horizontal motion are three completely separate components that determine your position. The rate at which knockback slows is independent of a character's fall rate.

As for figuring out when characters die from attacks using a formula, that would indeed be a useful application of this, but... not until much much later. There's still a lot that needs to be done before we could even start on something like that, although it will make a good long-term goal. I actually have thought about this before, but I wasn't sure if it would be feasible. I mean, what frame of reference could we use to determine the units on each stage? I also think rounding error will pose a large problem, and the best we could accomplish is a number somewhere close to the actual killing percent and not the actual killing percent. But compared to how much work will be put into creating this formula, having to do a little more field testing on moves within a small percent range shouldn't be that big of a deal. It's really just a matter of figuring out the distance from the stage to the kill boundary. Also, I'll need to see if I can get a code that causes you to not take damage from attacks (but still suffer knockback/hitstun), which will make testing the incremental and base launch speeds of attacks much easier.

TofuToph · Dec 21, 2008

I think I found a wall infinite for falcon if you guys want to take a look at it the original post is here

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6162901#post6162901

Yep!

BibulousDan · Dec 21, 2008

seems like an awesome idea, cant wait for the results! : D

Cherry64 · Dec 24, 2008

this us freakin sweet lol

phi1ny3 · Dec 25, 2008

@ the idea of using stage for determining kill formula: horrible idea, stage has influences in knock back (hence why Lucario's bair will shoot someone at almost perfect 180 near the ground, 120 anywhere else).

Browny · Dec 25, 2008

so... any news on when second wave intake might start? And i still need ideas on how to find the minimum disjoint on an attack :/ trying to determine it my current method is next to impossible lol

phi1ny3 · Dec 25, 2008

djbrowny said:
so... any news on when second wave intake might start? And i still need ideas on how to find the minimum disjoint on an attack :/ trying to determine it my current method is next to impossible lol

Maybe using nairs/dtilts (especially if they are pokes) to find general min/max, then for chars that have larger, find the attack? for disjoints, I'd say that you look at frame by frame, instead of clinking, I guess, since timing, priority, and change of length in hitboxes can be deceiving from one pic each (like showing frame differences of each.) Or use hacks, lol.

Adapt · Dec 25, 2008

can you try using the walls on snakes stage? I'm pretty sure they don't have a disjointed hurtbox. This will at least allow you to get the maximum range.

Browny · Dec 25, 2008

the maximum range is very easy to determine its the minimum disjoint im trying to get

phi1ny3 · Dec 26, 2008

djbrowny said:
the maximum range is very easy to determine its the minimum disjoint im trying to get

That would explain a lot (with all the pictures, I thought you were trying to find max). Minimum, huh? I'll see for a solution, but can't guarantee much at this point.

Adapt · Dec 26, 2008

djbrowny said:
the maximum range is very easy to determine its the minimum disjoint im trying to get

once you know an exact maximum on a particular attack, can you not turn the character around so they are attacking the back of the move you want to measure and check for minimum that way?

as long as the move only has a single hitbox it should work I think.

leafgreen386 · Dec 26, 2008

Adapt said:
once you know an exact maximum on a particular attack, can you not turn the character around so they are attacking the back of the move you want to measure and check for minimum that way?

as long as the move only has a single hitbox it should work I think.

That would work for finding the hitbox, but not the disjoint.

Browny · Dec 26, 2008

Yeah what he said. It was a good idea though.

Since my final pics with snake uptilts right in sonics face, and hitting lucas its quite apparent the location of clank bubbles doesnt measure the disjoint since the attacks will always clank anyway. Although would hitting with something like a full charge dk fsmash work? that will always beat the 10% clank rule but i think when that happens, the dk fsmash will always hit anyway :/

leafgreen386 · Dec 26, 2008

I think you're onto something there. Clanking is exactly what we DON'T want with this. You want a move that outprioritizes the move you're testing. You just keep repeating the moves at various ranges until you find the point where the character you're testing gets hit. Then you know the extent of the hurtbox, which combined with knowledge of the size of the hitbox of the move, you can find the extent of the disjoint.

pure_awesome · Dec 26, 2008

Dear Smash Lab,

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6207981#post6207981

Have fun.

infomon · Dec 27, 2008

You'll still see a "clash bubble" if one move "out-prioritizes" another (as per the 10% rule). So idk what you'd be trying to do with DK's Fsmash....

pure_awesome: Chis' claim is completely disbelieved until he provides a vid.... which hopefully he'll send me soon.

phi1ny3 · Dec 27, 2008

djbrowny said:
Yeah what he said. It was a good idea though.

Since my final pics with snake uptilts right in sonics face, and hitting lucas its quite apparent the location of clank bubbles doesnt measure the disjoint since the attacks will always clank anyway. Although would hitting with something like a full charge dk fsmash work? that will always beat the 10% clank rule but i think when that happens, the dk fsmash will always hit anyway :/

I think that the outprioritization will work better, as the hitboxes prolly have different priorities (which is why the clank bubble didn't work much anyways. Timing will be a bit tough, but that would probably get you better off on findings than the snake utilt testing.

Pr0phetic · Dec 29, 2008

Does anybody know the priority of MK's drill Rush? I've seen it clank with some beastily moves.

Face124 · Dec 29, 2008

Rukkiko said:
Does anybody know the priority of MK's drill Rush? I've seen it clank with some beastily moves.

I know that Falcon kick goes through it, if that's any help.

infomon · Dec 29, 2008

Rukkiko said:
Does anybody know the priority of MK's drill Rush? I've seen it clank with some beastily moves.

As far as I know, it follows the typical Special-move priority mechanic. Each of the drill's hitboxes would cause what, a few % damage? When these hitboxes overlap most opposing hitboxes, or even a shield or starman-invincible opponent, the drill will "clash" and its hitbox will lose its ability to damage that opponent. However each "hit" of the multi-hitting drill is a fresh hitbox with a renewed ability to damage anyone.

Anyway, it's a pretty weak form of priority. Aerials will clash with it, and aerials don't generally clash against ground-attacks (jabs/tilts/smashes), so that's a plus. But multi-hitting attacks that are fast enough can eat right through the drill; Sonic's Fair beats it head-on. Because after a clash, the Fair's next hitbox comes out sooner than the drill's, giving the Sonic time to overlap MK's hurtbox before the drill can do the same. Ground-moves, including many grounded Specials that cause within 10% damage of the drill will both clash with the drill, and also be "interrupted", like when an Fsmash clashes and the character quickly puts their sword away (or w/e). The drill cannot be interrupted in that sense, since it's always considered aerial, so you actually have to hit MK's hurtbox for it to be stopped.

There are tons of exceptions and technicalities, but I hope that helps....

SCOTU · Dec 30, 2008

anyone still trying to get in should try their hand with this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=213414

Browny · Dec 30, 2008

what do you mean 'still trying' to get in, none of us were ever given a chance to apply. Which is also why I think that thread has no interest in it at the moment

SCOTU · Dec 31, 2008

And i'm saying, if you want to get in before applications are taken, i suggest looking at that thread.

marthsword · Jan 1, 2009

Could I do some testing to figure out how often each colored Pikmin appears in each terrain type? Or do I have to be a researcher?

The Smash Lab: What is it?

Smash Scientist

Smash Scientist

Smash Hater

Smash Ace

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Smash Hater

Smash Scientist

Dirty camper

Not the Mama

Smash Master

Smash Ace

Level 55

Smash Lord

Smash Rookie

Smash Ace

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Smash Journeyman

Smash Apprentice

Smash Master

Not the Mama

Smash Hater

Not the Mama

Smash Lord

Smash Hater

Not the Mama

Smash Lord

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Smash Hater

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Smash Lord

Smash Scientist

Not the Mama

Dodge the bullets!

Smash Ace

Smash Scientist

Smash Hero

Smash Hater

Smash Hero

Smash Ace

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