The Smash Lab: What is it?

[SCOTU]

The smash researchers do not limit community research, but rather the opposite. We Encourage free community research. Moreover, research on your own is pretty much requisite to be considered for Smash Lab acceptance, so we encourage you to research things like that, and It will help you get in if you desire. win-win.

 

[phi1ny3]

I'm going to test if certain hits of lucario (like his AA) can be DI'd down, and therefore, prevent the third hit of FP/grab from happening. Also, I've been collaborating with probably the only lucario frame data project that might live. I also helped collect a bit of info on the whole "DDD infinite mystery". Would that be qualifiable material for "Smash researcher"? I can't hack atm, so this will have to do.

 

[Igglyboo]

If you and your team needs a hacker, I could help you out with that.

 

[M.K]

And i'm saying, if you want to get in before applications are taken, i suggest looking at that thread.

Half of us don't even have access to hacking devices, is there ANY alternative for those of us who can't hack to find codes?

 

[Igglyboo]

Half of us don't even have access to hacking devices, is there ANY alternative for those of us who can't hack to find codes?

All you need to use cheats is an SD card(cheap, can get one for 5 dollars).
And twilight princess( you can just rent it).

As for making codes, that's another story.
You need a USB gecko which costs about 50-60 dollars.

 

[M.K]

All you need to use cheats is an SD card(cheap, can get one for 5 dollars).
And twilight princess( you can just rent it).

As for making codes, that's another story.
You need a USB gecko which costs about 50-60 dollars.

Yeah...I don't think that is going to work out.
All I need is a different topic.
EDIT: I'm going to try a comparative analysis chart that emphasizes the importance of spacing. I will accomplish this through testing the kill percentages with Marth's regular Forward Smash against his Forward Smash with a tipper. I will do all 39 characters, including another Marth.
Does this sound good? I hope so, I'm desperate here!

 

[Fearmy]

well Pit, Zard, and MK have glides, I know there are more AT's with those, i don't know, maybe look into those?

 

[Browny]

Yeah...I don't think that is going to work out.
All I need is a different topic.
EDIT: I'm going to try a comparative analysis chart that emphasizes the importance of spacing. I will accomplish this through testing the kill percentages with Marth's regular Forward Smash against his Forward Smash with a tipper. I will do all 39 characters, including another Marth.
Does this sound good? I hope so, I'm desperate here!

I dont wanna ruin your hopes or anything, but what you are suggesting is nothing more that collecting numbers. Writing a chart of kill % of various attacks, the Aura boost equation, pikmin pluck % etc is a very simple task requiring only time, not much thought involved and anyone can do it. You would have to try things which actually involve research, not just a pen + paper writing down numbers. Things like the DDD grab losing 1 frame as it becomes stale, proving frame advantages and various follow ups against the cast is what research is all about.

And the importance of spacing vs marth tipper fsmash only applies to marth anyway. plenty of characters like DK, wolf work on a whole different type of spacing that doesnt involve standing in place, with bairs apporaches etc

 

[Adapt]

I dont wanna ruin your hopes or anything, but what you are suggesting is nothing more that collecting numbers. Writing a chart of kill % of various attacks, the Aura boost equation, pikmin pluck % etc is a very simple task requiring only time, not much thought involved and anyone can do it. You would have to try things which actually involve research, not just a pen + paper writing down numbers. Things like the DDD grab losing 1 frame as it becomes stale, proving frame advantages and various follow ups against the cast is what research is all about.

And the importance of spacing vs marth tipper fsmash only applies to marth anyway. plenty of characters like DK, wolf work on a whole different type of spacing that doesnt involve standing in place, with bairs apporaches etc

A large part of what the smash lab is is gathering and analyzing data.

Knockback and kill percentages are just as important as frame counting, so what if they don't require video capture and de-interlacing equipment?
I read somewhere that one of the lab projects is getting the base knockback and growth rate for all the moves in the game. (In addition to frame data, frame advantages and stale move decay)

 

[M.K]

I dont wanna ruin your hopes or anything, but what you are suggesting is nothing more that collecting numbers. Writing a chart of kill % of various attacks, the Aura boost equation, pikmin pluck % etc is a very simple task requiring only time, not much thought involved and anyone can do it. You would have to try things which actually involve research, not just a pen + paper writing down numbers. Things like the DDD grab losing 1 frame as it becomes stale, proving frame advantages and various follow ups against the cast is what research is all about.

And the importance of spacing vs marth tipper fsmash only applies to marth anyway. plenty of characters like DK, wolf work on a whole different type of spacing that doesnt involve standing in place, with bairs apporaches etc

Well then what do you suggest?
I was very prepared for not only a list of kill percentages, but also places where Marth's FSmash is easy to tip, the difference between tip kills and not-tip kills, how to best set up for a tip, and possibly pictures to accompany this.
Your argument that it "only applies to Marth" is flawed. Dedede's grab only applies to him and 3 other characters (the ones who are infinited), yet that was the very first thing we ever tried to research. The things you learn with Marth can also be applied to other characters.

A large part of what the smash lab is is gathering and analyzing data.

Knockback and kill percentages are just as important as frame counting, so what if they don't require video capture and de-interlacing equipment?
I read somewhere that one of the lab projects is getting the base knockback and growth rate for all the moves in the game. (In addition to frame data, frame advantages and stale move decay)

Quoted for truth. Unfortunately, not all of the people who long to be in the Smash Lab are also the owners of video capture equipment. Therefore, we do our best to help in the other aspects of the Lab, including kill percentages.
If there is someone like me in the Smash Lab, the people who DO have access to the video-capture, de-interlacing, and hacking equipment don't need to be bothered with collecting the data themselves for THEIR part of the research.

 

[yummynbeefy]

Because I'm just so epic i found out a super armor of kirbys up-b i think if its not super armor its something at least semi useful

 

[Sukai]

Hm. Hey, I don't have any hacking devices yet, I'll get hold of all of them in February.
However, I am starting a project (research based) on developing an alternative playstyle for Fox.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=214078
If anyone wants to help, I'm open to any suggestions.
I found that Fox's neutral air is very effective in punishing spontaneous, premeditated sidestep dodging.

 

[Niko_K]

I have a theory on the Tornado's hitboxes if nothing has been confirmed.

I believe that there are two hitboxes on the tornado, and they swirl in a figure 8 pattern up and down the tornado. I came up with this when I slowed down the nado in 1/4 speed, and noticed that the two flames (blue and red) interchanging spots as the nado progressed. The blue flame would be on the bottom left, and then travel up, and end up on the bottom right, while the red flame did the opposite.

Though the main thing about my theory is that the hitboxes start aligned. This means that the only time you can DI out of nado is when the hitboxes are aligned, and attacking the nado at this point would break it if the move had equal or higher priority than the tornado.

This would explain why you can SDI out of the nado easily on it's startup, and why it's also incredibly hard to SDI out of it during its action. It would also explain why moves would only break the tornado sometimes and not the other.

Any thoughts?

 

[infomon]

Hmm, I remember you posting about this tornado-theory a long time ago. It still interests me, I really can't figure out the SDI-strangeness of it.

But as for "breaking the tornado" what exactly do you mean by that? So in my tests, there are two ways the tornado can be interrupted. Either you hit MK's hurtbox inside it, which you can do to a tornado that's either on the ground or in the air.... OR, if a tornado's on the ground, pretty much any hitbox that overlaps the tornado's hitbox will bring it to a near-immediate stop. It's the same type of "cancellation" that happens when you clash ground moves, like most Fsmashes; the characters will quickly retreat their attack, putting away their swords or w/e. (The exception is MK whose sword has stupid transcendent priority )

But anyway, I think that explains the phenomena you saw... the tornado would be "broken" if it happened to be on the ground when you hit it. When it starts (and the swirls are "aligned") it's on the ground, then it rises some, then if you leave it alone it lands on the ground again..... lulz.

I could be wrong tho

 

[MyCurse4Life]

I would like to know myself.

 

[M.K]

Hey, I'm just back to update on my Marth's spacing project.
I'm sorry it's not coming along as fast I as I had hoped. I'm very busy with my first week of school and springboard diving 5 times a week. This weekend, I have a mandatory (WTF) church retreat for Confirmation class, so....I'll definetly work on it in the coming weeks.
I'm not giving up, this is a dream of mine. ;_;

 

[zxeon]

I have some information on hitlag. I heard that the artificial hitlag from some attacks cant be SDIed. Here's a list of some data I gathered.

Attacks I believe that have only artificial elemental hitlag or also have normal hitlag exeeding fifteen frames


Zelda's Heels
Gonondorf's Dair
Captain Falcon's knee

Attacks I believe that have only artificial elemental hitlag

Samus' charge shot
ZSS' Paralyzers (charge B and D smash)
Falco's lazer
Ness' PK flash
Wolf's Blaster shot and illusion sweetspot

Moves I think have both artificial elemental and regular hitlag

Olimars yellow Pikmin Dair
Lucas' Usmash (The first hit has artificial elemental hitstun and the others have normal hitstun that is under fifteen frames) and Dsmash
Shiek's Chain
Zelda's Usmash.

Moves I've tested with no hitlag

Metaknight's Mach Tornado
DDD's inhale and spit out
Zelda's neutral b
Fox's laser

Moves I've tested that exceed fifteen frames of hitlag

DDD's fully charged jet hammer
ZSS' smash b
Marth's Fsmash tipper
Captain Falcon's falcon punch
Ganondorfs neutral B

 

[Red Arremer]

Ah, too bad I wasn't taken into the Lab... I would've loved to support and research... But, oh well...

 

[leafgreen386]

@zxeon: Falcon's knee can be SDI'd, though, while zelda's toe cannot. Electric hitlag is not the same thing as fake hitlag, although they can overlap (as is the case with zelda's toe). Marth's fsmash is non-SDIable in at least part of it (so has fake hitlag), but has no electric properties, so they don't necessarily need to coexist. Electricity increases the regular hitlag of a move by some amount (which has yet to be determined, although it's probably a 1.5x multiplier like melee (iirc) was), while fake hitlag simply cannot be SDI'd. Most moves with fake hitlag probably also have real hitlag.

Your find about some attacks having both regular and electric hitlag, and also that some attacks (besides stuff like fox's laser) have no natural hitlag is interesting, though. This is definitely something we're going to need to watch out for when we're collecting frame data.

 

[zxeon]

@zxeon: Falcon's knee can be SDI'd, though, while zelda's toe cannot. Electric hitlag is not the same thing as fake hitlag, although they can overlap (as is the case with zelda's toe). Marth's fsmash is non-SDIable in at least part of it (so has fake hitlag), but has no electric properties, so they don't necessarily need to coexist. Electricity increases the regular hitlag of a move by some amount (which has yet to be determined, although it's probably a 1.5x multiplier like melee (iirc) was), while fake hitlag simply cannot be SDI'd. Most moves with fake hitlag probably also have real hitlag.

Your find about some attacks having both regular and electric hitlag, and also that some attacks (besides stuff like fox's laser) have no natural hitlag is interesting, though. This is definitely something we're going to need to watch out for when we're collecting frame data.

I see. I'll look into those moves.

 

[infomon]

In case some ppl missed it -- Yuna's thread on the Smash:DI-ability of different attacks:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=214068

Your findings may be novel to that thread though, so you may want to take them there.

 

[Commander_Beef]

Smash Lab? Smash Lab?

 

[danielkon369]

DDDs grab range its ridiculous no offense to DDD users!

 

[Jack Kieser]

Here's something I've been meaning to post. It's some copypasta from the ISP threads:

We have a request aimed at anyone with a USB Gecko and coding/Brawl+ knowledge. We need someone to figure out a way to control item spawns. As of now, we don't know exactly how the game spawns items. Some think it is closest to the loser, some think according to hard-coded spawn points, some think it is procedurally determined, and some think that it's purely random. Someone please figure out a way to hack the game to do the following:

*spawn items as close to the horizontal center of each map as possible, about 2/3s the distance above the ground (possibly next to the spawn platforms?)
*spawn items every 25-30 sec., regardless of spawn rate

This would be a MAJOR help. If someone has time, please take this up (I understand there's a LOT to work on).

 

[phi1ny3]

Here's something I've been meaning to post. It's some copypasta from the ISP threads:

We have a request aimed at anyone with a USB Gecko and coding/Brawl+ knowledge. We need someone to figure out a way to control item spawns. As of now, we don't know exactly how the game spawns items. Some think it is closest to the loser, some think according to hard-coded spawn points, some think it is procedurally determined, and some think that it's purely random. Someone please figure out a way to hack the game to do the following:

*spawn items as close to the horizontal center of each map as possible, about 2/3s the distance above the ground (possibly next to the spawn platforms?)
*spawn items every 25-30 sec., regardless of spawn rate

This would be a MAJOR help. If someone has time, please take this up (I understand there's a LOT to work on).

Would goon-farming give a clue to some of the item spawning mystery?

 

[Adapt]

I always thought it was a random pick from set locations

 

[Browny]

for anyone who doesnt know, the second 'wave' has been done already

 

[phi1ny3]

for anyone who doesnt know, the second 'wave' has been done already

You're kidding.

 

[Pr0phetic]

Hey Meta-Kirby, if you want I can assist you with the Marth project.

And im mad I already missed the second wave, grr.

 

[phi1ny3]

How did this wave come around? I've hardly seen anyone get "Researcher" after the second wave besides like Leafgreen.

 

[SCOTU]

leafgreen, 3GOD, Infzy, Amazing Ampharos, and ColinJF were accepted in the 2nd wave. Currently continuous nominations are being taken and the applications are being looked at, but there's been very few nominations. At some point the smash lab will probably take open applications, but there have been no concrete plans of the sort.

 

[M.K]

leafgreen, 3GOD, Amazing Ampharos, and ColinJF were accepted in the 2nd wave. Currently continuous nominations are being taken and the applications are being looked at, but there's been very few nominations. At some point the smash lab will probably take open applications, but there have been no concrete plans of the sort.

Gah, I seriously hope not, scotu.

There are obviously people interested like SpadeFox, ph1ney, and myself, yet if you open the Lab to the public, we will be lost in a mass of people who do it JUST for the cyan name. (trust me, it happened with the debate hall....ALOT)
Please give us a chance!

 

[SCOTU]

note that it won't be open, but rather anyone can submit an application which will then be checked and we will determine if you can get it. Currently you can only submit applications upon invite by a current member.

 

[Adapt]

Gah, I seriously hope not, scotu.

There are obviously people interested like SpadeFox, ph1ney, and myself, yet if you open the Lab to the public, we will be lost in a mass of people who do it JUST for the cyan name. (trust me, it happened with the debate hall....ALOT)
Please give us a chance!

You're forgetting me and Djbrowny, and I think Infzy would also like to join (but not positive)

 

[leafgreen386]

Infzy is already in lol

He just didn't change the color of his name.

 

[phi1ny3]

note that it won't be open, but rather anyone can submit an application which will then be checked and we will determine if you can get it. Currently you can only submit applications upon invite by a current member.

This is a relief. Hopefully, my frame data for Lucario (with formulas under construction for shield advantage), and other contributions will get me in.

 

[Niko_K]

So I was chilling with Infzy today since I'm now in Ottawa, and I showed him my NEW theory on Tornado. I am REALLY onto something but since I'm not in this elitist group known as the Smash Lab, I'm going to let him do the rest of the work and explain it.

Stay tuned.

 

[SuSa]

I no longer understand how to get in this, lol.

I love testing things, gives me something to do.

*goes back to counting frames*

 

[Steel]

I no longer understand how to get in this, lol.

I love testing things, gives me something to do.

*goes back to counting frames*

its handled by nominations from current lab members

 

[SuSa]

its handled by nominations from current lab members

Thanks for clarifying that.