Legendary Pikachu
Smash Ace
Nice find... i'll try to add that application to the video. Multiple situations with marth....
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Analyzing projectile properties and in game stategies with them
- Thread starter Disfunkshunal
- Start date
copacetic
Smash Journeyman
Alright this might've been discussed before, but a couple times now I've landed facing left and shooting an arrow to the right. This would be a great set-up for a b-air, but I can't replicate it no matter what I try. I thought someone had mentioned this before but I couldn't find it on the forums.
Disfunkshunal
Manners Maketh Man
alzi and copacetic ^^^^^^^^^^
bomb grabbing has become popular over the last couple days. lol
I know what you mean. They have a whole thread devoted to figuring it out (now thats my kind of thread!)
I did something cool with my move. (The full hop, boomerang diagonally down (Edit, The boomerang throw is a tilt throw) just misses, nair/zair) I was testing it on a Meta Knight (the character doesn't matter) and when I hit him into the boomerang with nair, he got hit twice with the boomerang really quickly. He must've hit it just as it was turning around and so got the going away and the coming back hits. It didn't affect the easy free hit, it just looked cooler and put on extra damage. I was able to recreate this aswell, it happens on a certain percent, which I forgot to write down, but still.
So now you know.
(Toon diddy you haven't told me what you think of the move yet, or whether or not it should be used for the 3.0.)
I'll be hearing from ya.
Disfunkshunal
Manners Maketh Man
lol sorry fox. i thought i did post back.
Before i start i have a question. Does the boomerang hit right after the nair/zair?
if it does its probably a tilt throw and i would really appriciate it, if you specify that in your post because i am use to smash throwing.
This seems to be a very good trap. If the boomerang does hit on the way down, the original 3.0 would work here. however if they should dodge it, the 3.1 can be used. To answer your question
'should i use this for the 3.0'
no it should be the 3.1 since it is a slight variation of the already 3.0.
about the peach counter/reflector debate....
all counters all physical attacks. peach's toad reflects back a projectile, its not the same projectile but it is one nonetheless. it can even be reflected back at her.
by the end of today i will atleast have all reflected boomerang damages and uncharged reflected arrow damages.
i had a little more to say but my computer froze up and deleted it so ummm yea, thats all for now
Before i start i have a question. Does the boomerang hit right after the nair/zair?
if it does its probably a tilt throw and i would really appriciate it, if you specify that in your post because i am use to smash throwing.
This seems to be a very good trap. If the boomerang does hit on the way down, the original 3.0 would work here. however if they should dodge it, the 3.1 can be used. To answer your question
'should i use this for the 3.0'
no it should be the 3.1 since it is a slight variation of the already 3.0.
about the peach counter/reflector debate....
all counters all physical attacks. peach's toad reflects back a projectile, its not the same projectile but it is one nonetheless. it can even be reflected back at her.
by the end of today i will atleast have all reflected boomerang damages and uncharged reflected arrow damages.
i had a little more to say but my computer froze up and deleted it so ummm yea, thats all for now
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
I have a very creative mind when it comes to training on my own and when brawling. But even with this creative mind thinking and experimenting different ways to do bomb grab for 3 straight hours I couldnt find anything... so.... yeah. Im not saying give up on bomb grabbing but dont get ur hopes.
Your right, it is a tilt throw. Sorry for not specifing that (I'll go back after this and edit it.).
In other news. We all should know about the B reversal by now. You jump right and hit B left, this results in you changing the direction you were facing and reversing your momentum.
I recently discovered this can also be used when your going backwards, the results are quite strange. Your facing right, you jump backwards to the left (still facing right) then you hit B left. This will make you face and shoot left and reverse your momentum so your now heading right (even though you hit left). This can be used after a string of bairs.
I used this idea to come up with The Fake Out Shot. It's simply a matter of doing a RAR B reversal. In lay man's terms, run in one direction (for the purpose of explaining we will say right) then pivot (hit left) Sh as your pivoting (this will make you jump right but face left) then hit B right. This will make it look like your approaching then all of a sudden you Short hop, your momentum is reversed (you start heading left) and you shoot an arrow right. Hence the name, The Fake Out Shot. This can also be used after a bair (seeing as most people use a RAR to aproach using Bair's).
Note: The B reversal can be replaced with a side B reversal because you can use the boomerang in the same way, it's just harder. (I personally would stick with the B reversal)
Disfunkshunal
Manners Maketh Man
Char
noomerang
arrow
Fox
B 4%
A 6%
Falco
B 4%
A 6%
Wolf
B 3%
A 5%
Mario
B 4%
A 6%
Pit
B 4%
A 6%
Zelda
B 3%
A 4%
something i didnt mention earlier: those damages i have listed above are not constant. I realized this with zelda. When i first reflected the boomerang it did 3% damage. at that time i was at 0%. Up until this point i have been going back to 0% health after getting hit once, but i didnt for some reason i dont know this time and just reflected another boomerang. Instead of going to 6%, i went to 7%. And then from 7% to 11%.
my hypothesis is that either
1. When you first get hit by a reflected projectile you take a warning base damage. What i mean is its the game's way of telling you be more careful. this is a one time warning before the damage incrases.
2. 0% is just an odd number.
i will test to see if i get the same results of a first 'base damage' then a +1% damage with the other characters. if i do i will test this more extensively with someone like fox who is easy to test by yourself. Getting your prijectiles reflected may have the opposite effect of stale move negation.
i tested these people because they were on fox's original list. i told him to do ness, lucas, rob and i forgot myself XD
noomerang
arrow
Fox
B 4%
A 6%
Falco
B 4%
A 6%
Wolf
B 3%
A 5%
Mario
B 4%
A 6%
Pit
B 4%
A 6%
Zelda
B 3%
A 4%
something i didnt mention earlier: those damages i have listed above are not constant. I realized this with zelda. When i first reflected the boomerang it did 3% damage. at that time i was at 0%. Up until this point i have been going back to 0% health after getting hit once, but i didnt for some reason i dont know this time and just reflected another boomerang. Instead of going to 6%, i went to 7%. And then from 7% to 11%.
my hypothesis is that either
1. When you first get hit by a reflected projectile you take a warning base damage. What i mean is its the game's way of telling you be more careful. this is a one time warning before the damage incrases.
2. 0% is just an odd number.
i will test to see if i get the same results of a first 'base damage' then a +1% damage with the other characters. if i do i will test this more extensively with someone like fox who is easy to test by yourself. Getting your prijectiles reflected may have the opposite effect of stale move negation.
i tested these people because they were on fox's original list. i told him to do ness, lucas, rob and i forgot myself XD
i agree that you're a creative person. i have no reason not to believe you. No doubt you've tried some things noone else has. But in your 3 hours if training, i gurantee you repeated a test someone else did. Even though you are creative you may arrive at the same place someone not as creative did, the two of you just took seperate paths there. For the 1st hour you were trying to grab with a bomb, fox could have done all of the same test a couple days before you. Since you didnt know you did the tests anyway and as a result you lost some will to try out new solutions. if you would have known that fox did those test, the hour could have been spent doing different test, and believe it or not that hour of different test could have meant all the difference betwwen finding out how to bomb grab, and not finding outhow to bomb grab.
Judge Judy
Smash Lord
- Joined
- May 18, 2008
- Messages
- 1,638
You guys might also want to note how water hitboxes push bombs far even if they just touch them.
Disfunkshunal
Manners Maketh Man
thanks for that judge judy. ill find somewhere to stick that lol
my post before this and OP are updated.
Op is glitching. if you see really awkward spacing or quotes divided into 2 or more quotes tell me. but i think i fixed all of them for now...
my post before this and OP are updated.
Op is glitching. if you see really awkward spacing or quotes divided into 2 or more quotes tell me. but i think i fixed all of them for now...
I checked the OP out, It's still glitching...
This is quite interesting. I haven't tested anything yet so this is pure speculation, When I shot zelda's reflector with a fully charged shot (12%) it did 14%. So mathematically, if you hit the same reflector with something that normally does 3%, it would now do 3 and a half%. This might be why you were getting 3% one time and 4% another time.
This said I think we should test it just to make sure, but this time we should test it with fully charged shots, this way there won't be any half percents.
Also Toondiddy, what did you think of the backwards B reversal?
rebd121
Smash Journeyman
There's something I found on accident with bombs. Not sure if it's widely known or not, and I've been sitting on it for awhile since I don't have a vid of it. But, if you're knocked away with a bomb in your hand, and that bomb explodes while you're flying away, your momentum will stop completely at the point of detonation. Bomb braking, essentially. Since it's encouraged to always carry a bomb, this situation can happen quite often.
Like I said, this may be common knowledge, but I thought I'd say something.
Like I said, this may be common knowledge, but I thought I'd say something.
Most people would end up throwing the bomb to DI to save their lives as habit.
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
a combo i like to do, only works if you know what youre doing 
SH and boomerang throw over the opponent, grab a bomb and drop it, stand behind the bomb and grab the opponent, immediatly throw him forward, he gets hit by the boomerang, throw the bomb, regrab and you can now throw him ANYWHERE for a combo. ofc the requirements for this combo are kinda high so it can easily be simplified by not laying a bomb, the boomerang is required though as the bomb throwing will be dodged if he isnt hit by boomerang
SH and boomerang throw over the opponent, grab a bomb and drop it, stand behind the bomb and grab the opponent, immediatly throw him forward, he gets hit by the boomerang, throw the bomb, regrab and you can now throw him ANYWHERE for a combo. ofc the requirements for this combo are kinda high so it can easily be simplified by not laying a bomb, the boomerang is required though as the bomb throwing will be dodged if he isnt hit by boomerang
Disfunkshunal
Manners Maketh Man
ok i think i figured out what is wrong with the op and until i fix it the long the way it will keep reverting back to being messed up. (i've been trying to fix it a shorter way) if i am correct and ully understand whats wrong it should be fix by the end of today.
rebd: like dc said i almost always throw my bombs, however if my bomb is about to explode ill keep that in mind
Fox: i dont understand how you got to 3.5% but you seem sure so i will experiment with fully charged shots, thanks.
About the b reversal, it seems like this would only work a couple times a match. people dont run up and rar as much because its easy to see coming, but when you do, do it the b reversal would be a nice mixup. Also to do the b reveral you wouldn't need/want to be as close as you would if you were to bair them so that might make this easier to see coming.
Xonar: yea, like you said it may be hard to get everything set up without the opp messing you up before you get the bomb dropped on the ground. without dropping the bomb first, this would still be good for setting up any move
Edit: op should be normal
rebd: like dc said i almost always throw my bombs, however if my bomb is about to explode ill keep that in mind
Fox: i dont understand how you got to 3.5% but you seem sure so i will experiment with fully charged shots, thanks.
About the b reversal, it seems like this would only work a couple times a match. people dont run up and rar as much because its easy to see coming, but when you do, do it the b reversal would be a nice mixup. Also to do the b reveral you wouldn't need/want to be as close as you would if you were to bair them so that might make this easier to see coming.
Xonar: yea, like you said it may be hard to get everything set up without the opp messing you up before you get the bomb dropped on the ground. without dropping the bomb first, this would still be good for setting up any move
Edit: op should be normal
rebd121
Smash Journeyman
That's cool. Just wanted to bring the property to the community's attention. It'll make you think twice about throwing bombs at high percentage though, or at least I try to hold onto them now.
Ashraf23
Smash Apprentice
Good guide. gives some pretty nice tips.
If 12% comes back 14% then using the same ratio, 3% comes back as 3.5% and 6% comes back as 7%.
The backwards B reversal is a really useful technique (you don't need to RAR, thats just one way you can use it). It means you can jump backwards towards someone, reverse your momentum and still shoot towards them. It's a great spacing tool and it's become a major part of my game when I'm fighting backwards. Throw in a few bairs and your sweet. I would recomend you look into it more and possibly put it on the OP. To really understand how useful this is you need to use it in a match a few times, then you'll understand why I'm so keen on it.
Edit: Nice job fixing the OP btw.
Disfunkshunal
Manners Maketh Man
ok ill try to find someone to wifi maybe tomorrow.
about the op being fixed...........
it *looks* fixed. it turns u cant add anything without messing it up again. so i wont be adding anything right now
thanks ashraf
Thats a shame..... Anyway tell me what you think of it once you've tried it.
Disfunkshunal
Manners Maketh Man
kk. will do
This is probably already known by someone but it hasn't been said yet. It's a technique that keeps bombs raining down from the sky. It is best used if someone is directly below you and you have a platform to stand and land on but it can also be used for edgeguarding or just in a normal circumstance.
Assuming your above them near the edge of a platform and they are trying to get up, this is what you do. Pull out a bomb, full hop out (your now right above them) throw the bomb down at them and start pulling out another bomb before the peak of your jump. As your pulling out this bomb, DI back towards the platform, as soon as you've got the bomb jump back towards the platform and throw this bomb down as well, then quickly again before you reach the peak of your jump, pull out another bomb. Your now back to where you started standing near the edge holding a bomb. Then it's just a matter of repeating the process over and over again until your opponenet realises there is no chance of getting up this way amd gives up.
Remember that that is the best circumstance this can be used. It can as I said also be used for edgeguarding and in a normal circumstance. You can edgeguard with this if your opponent is recovering from directly below the edge of the stage for an easy kill.
To use this in a normal circumstance (by this a mean your both on the same platform) you can use this technique but only three times. You have a bomb, full hop over them and throw the bomb down, once again pulling out another bomb before the peak of your jump, then as your pulling out this bomb, DI in the direction your opponent is then jump again and throw this bomb down at them. Finally as you have no more jumps left and no higher platform, pull out another bomb and throw it at them before you land or quickdraw.
My bad if you guys already know this.
(Toondiddy, have you checked out the backwards B reversal yet? Let me know what you think.)
Assuming your above them near the edge of a platform and they are trying to get up, this is what you do. Pull out a bomb, full hop out (your now right above them) throw the bomb down at them and start pulling out another bomb before the peak of your jump. As your pulling out this bomb, DI back towards the platform, as soon as you've got the bomb jump back towards the platform and throw this bomb down as well, then quickly again before you reach the peak of your jump, pull out another bomb. Your now back to where you started standing near the edge holding a bomb. Then it's just a matter of repeating the process over and over again until your opponenet realises there is no chance of getting up this way amd gives up.
Remember that that is the best circumstance this can be used. It can as I said also be used for edgeguarding and in a normal circumstance. You can edgeguard with this if your opponent is recovering from directly below the edge of the stage for an easy kill.
To use this in a normal circumstance (by this a mean your both on the same platform) you can use this technique but only three times. You have a bomb, full hop over them and throw the bomb down, once again pulling out another bomb before the peak of your jump, then as your pulling out this bomb, DI in the direction your opponent is then jump again and throw this bomb down at them. Finally as you have no more jumps left and no higher platform, pull out another bomb and throw it at them before you land or quickdraw.
My bad if you guys already know this.
(Toondiddy, have you checked out the backwards B reversal yet? Let me know what you think.)
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
yeah I know, it can be dumbed down to a forward throw > boomerang return > grab which should easily work.
boomerang return is just so underrated as it gives no knockback but still a nice amount of hitstun, it can be combo'd with anything
Disfunkshunal
Manners Maketh Man
i think op is good for real now. fox ill edit this with my thoughts on the b reversal and will add it to op.
Xonar- returning boomerang is underrated. Speaking of that i was recently reminded of the off paths and will look at those more later too.
Xonar- returning boomerang is underrated. Speaking of that i was recently reminded of the off paths and will look at those more later too.
No no no, it's not the B reversal. Everyone knows about the B reversal. It's called the Backwards B reversal, they are almost completely opposite to each other.
The B reversal is done by jumping forward (facing right, it doesn't matter) and hitting B left. This makes you jump forwards and face right, then turn around, face and shoot left and instantly DI left. The main problem with this is you need to be a long way away for this to help, because by reversing your momentum back towards the opponent your losing your space.
The Backwards B Reversal is done by jumping backwards (facing right, again) and hitting B left. This will make you jump backwards and face right, then turn around, face and shoot left but you will Instantly DI right. By doing this your giving yourself loads of space and it's much harder to punish, thus a much better move.
Disfunkshunal
Manners Maketh Man
fox if i am correct than that is what you are talking about that and i've known it.You described how to do it the non b-stick way. Like i said i will put it in the OP though. I personally dont find this useful. i understand that for you this is helpful due to the spacing it does and mindgames. However when i use this i miss and/or get countored. It could be that im just using it in a too obviously way. Since every toon is different dont expect everything that works for you to work for me. Ill put it up and a list of ways you find it to be useful (if you could give me a list
). Dont give up though and keep trying to find new things
Ah, once again the B-stick. Your right, that is what I was talking about. As you might remember I can't use the B-stick because of my controls. Thanks for explaining it to me again, and I appologise for 'finding' something that was already on the OP.
I usually use this move to give me enough space and time to charge a shot and then shoot it when I'm in line with them. I suppose it's not a complete loss, at least I explained how to do it if you have C-stick on, so instead of adding it maybe you could just say it can be done without the B-stick
Anyway never mind, I'll let you know when I find something else.
*trying desperately to contribute*
*TL's my fourth*
On angled floors, the boomerang takes a weird angle that i love to use. You can use it to make a barrier between you and your opponent and space yourself, or other random stuff.
The way it gets back to you is strange too.
*TL's my fourth*
On angled floors, the boomerang takes a weird angle that i love to use. You can use it to make a barrier between you and your opponent and space yourself, or other random stuff.
The way it gets back to you is strange too.
Disfunkshunal
Manners Maketh Man
im glad you did find this out, because like you said not everyone uses the b-stick. Not everyone reads the op from top to bottom, so it was good that you brought this up. Maybe someone will be able to turn this into something bigger.
In regards to adding it, i still will because it was under 'b-sticking'. ill put it under arrows and will mention both ways. ill also add the yellow.
Teneban the boomerang is probably one of the best projectiles because of its paths. If you look at the op tlmarth found some of the wierd paths it travels. the boomerang ultimately has an unlimited number of paths, and they all are helpful. ill check out slanted floors thanks
Cheers mate!
I think I found something else, (I'm on a roll here)
The Special Momentum Shift
It's a technique that makes you reverse your momentum without turning and facing the other way.
Well this is only partly true, in actual fact you are turning around twice really quickly so it looks like you haven't turned around at all.
It's quite easily done with a boomerang and it's possible to do with an arrow, I'm just not entirely sure how. Edit: I now know how to do it with an arrow as well, I will explain later on. Using a boomerang is still easier.
It can be done by jumping backwards and forwards, but backwards is more effective.
For explaination purposes I'll use the boomerang as the projectile, I'll also say backwards and forwards instead of left and right (Just know that if your facing right and I want you to hit right, then I'll say forwards and visa versa). Enough talk. This is how you do it.
To do the Special Momentum Shift jumping backwards, jump backwards and smash Backward B, Forward, really quickly. This will make you jump backwards, start throwing the boomerang behind you, turn around and throw the boomerang the original way you were facing (forwards), and reverse your momentum so instead of jumping backwards, your now jumping forwards. (You still with me?)
To do the Special Momentum Shift jumping forwards, jump forwards and smash Backward B, Forward, really quickly. This will make you jump forwards, start throwing the boomerang behind you, turn around and throw the boomerang the original way you were facing (forwards), and reverse your momentum so instead of jumping forwards, your now jumping backwards. Note this way is less effective.
The Special Momentum Shift can as I said be done with an arrow as well. I think the way to do it with an arrow is instead of smashing Backward (In Backward B, Forward) you tilt hit backward, then continue the B, forward as usual.
Edit: This is confirmed, this is how you reverse your momentum without turning around using an arrow. I'll explain in more detail.
To do this with a boomerang you jump in any direction then hit Backwards B, Forwards really quickly.
To do this with an arrow you jump in any direction then slightly tilt Backwards B, then hit forwards as usual (All done really quickly of course).
Is this already known how to do with the B-stick? I've never heard of anyone using the B-stick to reverse their momentum but not turn around. Anyway let me know what you think.
Disfunkshunal
Manners Maketh Man
good job Fox you are on a roll. Keep it up
first i havent heard of someone doing or done this myself this with the b-stick.
This sounds really good because of what both ways can do. For example the former would be good for approaches. i would imagine you could follow this up with a nair to quickdraw/ zair to usmash etc. The latter would be good for retreating and if they come after you i think a zair or arrow would disrupt them. ill try this in training mode and when i am able to do it, ill try it on wifi
first i havent heard of someone doing or done this myself this with the b-stick.
This sounds really good because of what both ways can do. For example the former would be good for approaches. i would imagine you could follow this up with a nair to quickdraw/ zair to usmash etc. The latter would be good for retreating and if they come after you i think a zair or arrow would disrupt them. ill try this in training mode and when i am able to do it, ill try it on wifi
Hell yes! It's been a while since I've made any discoveries that haven't already been known. (And now, what to call it? XD)
Anyway I'll keep trying to figure out how to reverse your momentum without turning around with an arrow. I keep on doing it by accident but I'm not sure what the difference is between doing this with the boomerang and an arrow. Like I said I think it's to do with tilting the first time but it also might have something to do with timing or both. In any case I'll let you know as soon as I know.
Darktemplio
Smash Journeyman
question: why is it that in lylat and yoshis (and in some of the counterpicks) when you throw the boomerang, it doesnt always come back?
TLMarth
Smash Ace
'Using the B-stick to reverse their momentum but not turn around'
This sounds like Lucas' pk fire technique where he:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=153793
Runs up,
jumps,
PK fires,
then strangely goes backwards.
With this stuff (And with Reverse B reversal), it seems that you input the same commands (except for the jump), but do the opposite thing somehow.
Do you have videos of the bomb pressure thing?
I checked the thread out. It seems they found a way to do this with the B-stick but they only seem to know about doing it when jumping forwards. So I still claim it as my discovery XD.
Your exactly right! The only difference is jumping either forwards or backwards, You imput the same commands and it will do the opposite thing somehow. Also my discovery.
Anyway, I've figured out how to reverse your momentum without turning around using an arrow. It seems I was right, you have to tilt the Backwards B, I'll explain.
To do this with a boomerang you jump in any direction and hit Backwards B, Forwards really quickly.
To do this with an arrow you jump in any direction and slightly tilt Backwards B, then hit Forwards as usual (all really quickly of course).
I'll edit my original post concerning this move with this added information.
TLMarth
Smash Ace
Oh but you also have to take into account which way you're facing, right?
I'm too confused to learn this now...
To simplify, I guess I should just learn the useful ones (the Reverse (backwards jumping) ones?)
I'm too confused to learn this now...
To simplify, I guess I should just learn the useful ones (the Reverse (backwards jumping) ones?)
It doesn't matter which way your facing, this is the reason I explained it the way I did. Backwards and forwards remain constant. If I had of said left and right, then that would change if you turn aound. It's actually pretty simple..
Also both the forwards and the backwards versions are usefull, depending on how you use them, but yes your right in a way.
When I said the backwards version is more effective (speaking about reversing your momentum without turning around) I simply meant when you reverse your momentum you will go a lot further. In fact you go so far that you can easily jump backwards, reverse, and land further forwards then where you started.
I hope this helps.
First of all, sorry it took so long to answer. Ok this is called a Phantom boomerang. What happens is the bottom of the boomerang just touches the ground as it is thrown out. The reason why it only works on specific levels is because of the way the level is shaped. You'll notice that on yoshi's Island the main platform isn't straight, it sort of dips down in the middle.
If you want to do this easily for yourself then first of all you need to know that it only works if you throw it left. On Yoshi's level, you'll notice the bottom level is broken up into little rectangles and squares. There's a small rectangle in the middle and two slanting squares to the left. If you stand in the middle of the second square to the left of the small rectangle, then throw the boomerang out left, it won't come back.
This momentum reversal for boomerang is AWESOME for mindgames.
While before most people would easily dodge my boomerangs, by shifting directions before tossing the boomerang, they end up coming in as an aggressor, so they cannot shield as quickly. By reversing the momentum back and then forward again, you can arrow cancel while kind of sliding forward and go in for another hit. If the arrow lands, you pretty much got yourself another combo.
While before most people would easily dodge my boomerangs, by shifting directions before tossing the boomerang, they end up coming in as an aggressor, so they cannot shield as quickly. By reversing the momentum back and then forward again, you can arrow cancel while kind of sliding forward and go in for another hit. If the arrow lands, you pretty much got yourself another combo.
TLMarth
Smash Ace
OMG I tried out the boomerang thing and it is cool.