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Official Stage Legality Discussion

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Linkshot

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Alright, guys. I know you're going to completely flame me for this, but I am being very serious.

RUMBLE FALLS (Fighting for Legal CP)

I was having some matches today with a D3 main that is very proficient in CG to death.

Here's the data:

Ledges: 1. There is one snap-on ledge on this entire stage. It is on the other side of the breakable wall. Most, if not all characters can make this, and cleanly avoid the death spike.
Platforms: Nearly everything here is a platform, and fall-through at that. The only up-through platform that you can't fall through is the base you start on (which will be brought back around in the cycle). This is also an the only honest walk-off.

Let's talk about the walk-offs while I have your attention on them.

Yes, D3 is very good at platforming on this stage. He has multiple jumps and is heavy enough to land on platforms in the fastest of situations. However, his aerial maneuverability is slow and thusly many characters can stay ahead of him and thusly prevent him from pulling off the chaingrab.

Of course, there are hazards. 3 of them.

#1: Death Spike near the beginning. This hits at a low angle with high knockback and is a pretty large hitbox. It is techable. It is easily avoidable. You are putting yourself at risk if you attempt to throw your opponent into it. Most of all, it is stationary.
#2: Spike Row in middle of cycle. Just after the plane, there is a row of 5 small diamond spikes that hit you upward with low knockback. They appear between two platforms, 1 spike between a platform and ceiling. Small characters can walk under these. Again, stationary and avoidable. They only kill if you're at the top of the camera.
#3: End Cycle Spike. This is insanely small and only spikes you into the platform a few feet beneath it. Not even worth mentioning. Hits straight down into a platform.

Now, for all of you that hate moving stages and refuse to play on them, I'll give you this tip:

You move with the camera. As the camera moves up, you move up, and your weight pushes you down the camera.

You're probably wondering what the hell this stage can bring to the metagame. Well, you'll be surprised, but it brings a lot.

This stage favours heavy characters (in fall speed). Yes, heavy.
This stage discourages projectile camping. It shuts down Falco, Pikachu, and many others.
As a result, hand-to-hand combat is promoted.
There are no infinites due to the nature of the moving camera.

Broken Tactics

The only truly broken tactic here in Kirby and MK's uThrow, and it's very situational. As well, it's very easy to simply ban doing this.

Something good to know: D3 can't chaingrab during Speed Up because the camera pulls his victim away.

I highly encourage you to have somebody go D3 and try to chaingrab you while you stay ahead of him and shut him down. As well, I encourage somebody trying to laser camp you or abuse the death spike. Use everything at your disposal to avoid them. The predator should be doing the same to attempt them.

Discuss after testing.

Thank you.
 

deepseadiva

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Awesome, actual information that's not theory! :bee:

Awesome awesome awesome.

Rumble Falls is actually looking pretty neat as a CP - the only things that irk me is the first spike , which I shall here on out refer to as Death Spike. And the uthrow thing. How situational is it exactly?
 

Linkshot

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For uThrow, you have to place the horizontal coordinate perfectly at the right time, otherwise you hit a spike and both die, or you hit a ceiling, opponent techs, and you get punished.

To further specify on the location, basically early, middle of stage, "right" section of the cycle.

It's not a true instant death anywhere else (opponent needs to be at 30-50% to do it on the left side from the base, I think. Further testing would be greatly appreciated.)
 

bobson

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Here's a map I just put together of the stage:

The blastzones move left and right along with the camera as well as up and down.
I think the speed-up segments depend on the music choice, but I'm not positive. It's almost always going at its slowest speed around the point where the death spike is in the top of the screen and a little after the choke point.

Platforms: Nearly everything here is a platform, and fall-through at that. The only up-through platform that you can't fall through is the base you start on (which will be brought back around in the cycle). This is also an the only honest walk-off.
This isn't true; the beginning platform doesn't run outside of the blastzones. You can jump around it to get back under it. This bit is the only true walkoff, and it only becomes one a bit after it comes on screen because the camera is moving left. For most of the "almost" walkoffs, though, they end close enough to the blastzones for an fthrow to kill most characters.

On uthrow shenanigans:
Metaknight and Kirby's uthrows both go about this far:

(it's a slightly smaller distance on the above map)

For it to work, it has to be used just when a platform comes in range, or it'll scroll down too far for it to be an instant kill. Higher damage on the target makes it more likely to work. Places where it tends to work most are around the beginning platform, under the choke point, the area around the plane, and the section before the level restarts.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Great map. Seriously.

I don't suppose you can make one of Pirate Ship, can you? I plan on doing some testing for that stage, and just words apparently isn't going to work anymore with people popping up charts. >_> Just one of each "situation" as it where. Normal, Rock'd, KoL, Wind (shouldn't really be different here, just want to know if the blastzone changes below the ship), and a picture of the hitbox of those cannons. The rest I can do on my own, but I can't get that stuff. It would help a lot if you could.
 

fkacyan

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Great map. Seriously.

I don't suppose you can make one of Pirate Ship, can you? I plan on doing some testing for that stage, and just words apparently isn't going to work anymore with people popping up charts. >_> Just one of each "situation" as it where. Normal, Rock'd, KoL, Wind (shouldn't really be different here, just want to know if the blastzone changes below the ship), and a picture of the hitbox of those cannons. The rest I can do on my own, but I can't get that stuff. It would help a lot if you could.
Pirate Ship is one of those stages that, unless the SBR comes with a gun to my head, I will never put on a stage list.
 

Ryusuta

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I'm thinking of doing some testing on Rumble Falls, too. I'll report my own findings once I get them.
 

deepseadiva

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I'm thinking of doing some testing on Rumble Falls, too. I'll report my own findings once I get them.
I like how "findings" in this thread really comes down to just playing legitimately on the stage once or twice. xD

It's awesome.

Pirate Ship is one of those stages that, unless the SBR comes with a gun to my head, I will never put on a stage list.
I agree for two points.

  • Random cannonballs that can't be seen if zoomed in.
  • Water camping (though it's banability can be debated).
 

infomon

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Why do you need vids? You can do it in training mode on 1/4 mode, and if you see the shield come up, then they can get out. It's that simple. The only reason why it might not land all the time is because the timing is harder to land than normally CGing on flat land.
My argument that an intelligent Ness/Lucas wouldn't have too much of a problem with D3's chaingrab, because they can force D3 off the left side. It's not a broken tactic on DP in many matchups. I want vids of high-level players actually not having sufficient options to avoid solidly losing to a campy D3. If noone can provide this, then there's no evidence to suggest that it's broken.

Until someone tells me how exactly the stage promotes a different style of play without the hazards being too problematic, I'm sticking with my decision that Yoshi's Island Pipes should be banned.
First off, I wouldn't really call anything on Pipes a "hazard", just interesting stage characteristics. Bombs are a hazard.... a small stage with slopes is just different IMO.

Secondly, it obviously promotes a "different style of play".... I don't know about you, but I find that stage has very unique battle mechanics. You can avoid death sometimes if you DI into the ground so that the bounce gets you out of hitstun early so you can momentum-cancel. Or use the blocks, if they're active, but then that's a reason to use the blocks in your favour. If Ice Climbers are spamming ice blocks (which swing back+forth across the stage in a unique way), you can break the middle blocks so this isn't a problem. Characters with spikes can try to spike down that centre channel, and characters with walljumps can use it to get out. None of this stuff is problematic, these are all reasons why the stage genuinely adds something to the game.

I don't see how a "close killzone" can really be called a "hazard" any more than any killzone on any stage. I guess it means it will make matches run faster because mistakes will be punished harder earlier... but that's true for every character. I don't see how a personal preference for longer matches can be considered anything but arbitrary.

If D3 is overpowered on Pipes to the point that the stage is completely degenerate, then this needs to be proven. But I've also heard reasons why a number of other characters are "too good" on this stage (ex. MK, Falco).... which could contradict the idea that D3's CG is degenerate. In addition, I know some of the character boards know about unique tactics on this stage that most ppl probably don't know about, or at least haven't seen the richness of the Pipes metagame develop to know where the characters stand and what strategies are viable or not. For example, Sonic can invincible-spindash easily from the leftmost pipe, which makes him un-grabbable for a spindash; and he can shield-cancel a rolling spindash on upward slopes, and his spindashes get extra speed/damage on downward slopes. All of which could be useful, y'know, against a D3.

But hey, just ban it! Heaven forbid that Brawl have a metagame!

Edit: Hrrrm, I decided to throw that last statement in spoiler tags because although it represents some of my frustration with the ban-happy camp... I realized I was replying to Avarice who's totally cool in this thread and doesn't afraid of anything. So don't interpret my tone as aggressive in any of this :) kthx
 

nnif

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i personally like the yoshis island map.. the only deal is cant characters like falco and ice climbers just chaingrab on the slope then forward throw off the stage? kinda like in castle siege when youre falling and a character can just chaingrab off the edge. dedede can do it too and it would be a real painto just get owned like that and not be able to do anything about it... but then again, it happens all the time and no one ever complains about it.
 

AvaricePanda

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My argument that an intelligent Ness/Lucas wouldn't have too much of a problem with D3's chaingrab, because they can force D3 off the left side. It's not a broken tactic on DP in many matchups. I want vids of high-level players actually not having sufficient options to avoid solidly losing to a campy D3. If noone can provide this, then there's no evidence to suggest that it's broken.



First off, I wouldn't really call anything on Pipes a "hazard", just interesting stage characteristics. Bombs are a hazard.... a small stage with slopes is just different IMO.

Secondly, it obviously promotes a "different style of play".... I don't know about you, but I find that stage has very unique battle mechanics. You can avoid death sometimes if you DI into the ground so that the bounce gets you out of hitstun early so you can momentum-cancel. Or use the blocks, if they're active, but then that's a reason to use the blocks in your favour. If Ice Climbers are spamming ice blocks (which swing back+forth across the stage in a unique way), you can break the middle blocks so this isn't a problem. Characters with spikes can try to spike down that centre channel, and characters with walljumps can use it to get out. None of this stuff is problematic, these are all reasons why the stage genuinely adds something to the game.

I don't see how a "close killzone" can really be called a "hazard" any more than any killzone on any stage. I guess it means it will make matches run faster because mistakes will be punished harder earlier... but that's true for every character. I don't see how a personal preference for longer matches can be considered anything but arbitrary.

If D3 is overpowered on Pipes to the point that the stage is completely degenerate, then this needs to be proven. But I've also heard reasons why a number of other characters are "too good" on this stage (ex. MK, Falco).... which could contradict the idea that D3's CG is degenerate. In addition, I know some of the character boards know about unique tactics on this stage that most ppl probably don't know about, or at least haven't seen the richness of the Pipes metagame develop to know where the characters stand and what strategies are viable or not. For example, Sonic can invincible-spindash easily from the leftmost pipe, which makes him un-grabbable for a spindash; and he can shield-cancel a rolling spindash on upward slopes, and his spindashes get extra speed/damage on downward slopes. All of which could be useful, y'know, against a D3.

But hey, just ban it! Heaven forbid that Brawl have a metagame!

Edit: Hrrrm, I decided to throw that last statement in spoiler tags because although it represents some of my frustration with the ban-happy camp... I realized I was replying to Avarice who's totally cool in this thread and doesn't afraid of anything. So don't interpret my tone as aggressive in any of this :) kthx
You've convinced me to play more serious matches on this stage...I'm still not completely sure about it, but thanks. Actually listing changes in styles of play instead of a generic, vague statement actually helped.

Oh, and as of now, my stage list would look like this

Neutrals:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Lylat Cruise

Counterpicks:
Frigate Orpheon
Pokemon Stadium 1
Castle Siege
Delfino's Plaza
Battleship Halberd
Brinstar
Rainbow Cruise
Norfair
Luigi's Mansion
Pokemon Stadium 2 (there's no real reason to ban this except for the fact that like NO ONE plays on it)
MAYBE Distant Planet (leaning towards no)
MAYBE Yoshi's Island Melee (i'm neutral to it as of now)
 

Linkshot

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Throwing this into the mix:

Rumble Falls seems to help Falcon a lot. Test this, maybe? Falcon needs all the help he can get.

Reasons: He can't get projectile camped, and he can maneuvre the stage very well. Since it promotes hand-to-hand combat, Falcon can pose a threat to those that rely on projectiles for damage.
 

bobson

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MAYBE Distant Planet (leaning towards no)
I still have no idea why Distant Planet is questionable. Do you honestly think the walkoff here breaks the game? The walkoff on Castle Siege is more dangerous than the one on Distant Planet.

I don't suppose you can make one of Pirate Ship, can you? I plan on doing some testing for that stage, and just words apparently isn't going to work anymore with people popping up charts. >_> Just one of each "situation" as it where. Normal, Rock'd, KoL, Wind (shouldn't really be different here, just want to know if the blastzone changes below the ship), and a picture of the hitbox of those cannons. The rest I can do on my own, but I can't get that stuff. It would help a lot if you could.
Getting shots of the changes is easy, but I'm not sure about the cannonball hitboxes. I'd be able to get a reasonable estimate at best.
 

fkacyan

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@ Avarice: I will somehow convince you that Luigi's and Norfair are stupid within the next two months.

>_>
 

abhishekh

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Am I the only one who feels that stages shouldn't be banned...?

I mean there is an equal chance of getting the star bonus or giant mushroom bonus from wario ware, or you could even make it so the opponent doesn't do what he is required to do to get that bonus (i.e. stopping him from taunting)...

You hoars banned all the fun stages <<

And I have no idea why 75m is banned, the stuff is all easy to avoid, unless you get smashed into it which is your fault.

I mean, if you really wanted to make it so there is only player skill level involved, you'd just get everyone to play the same character on a stupid custom stage where you can't get trapped under the lip like you do on final destination.

Heck I even believe items should be on. Except for those stupid assist trophy's, but even then it wouldn't be so bad if they were allowed as well. Plus it also helps that MK has arguably the worst Final Smash, in that its hard to land and does crappy damage and can't kill unless the person is over 50%.


Dunno, thats just me though.
 

fkacyan

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Am I the only one who feels that stages shouldn't be banned...?

I mean there is an equal chance of getting the star bonus or giant mushroom bonus from wario ware, or you could even make it so the opponent doesn't do what he is required to do to get that bonus (i.e. stopping him from taunting)...

You hoars banned all the fun stages <<

And I have no idea why 75m is banned, the stuff is all easy to avoid, unless you get smashed into it which is your fault.

I mean, if you really wanted to make it so there is only player skill level involved, you'd just get everyone to play the same character on a stupid custom stage where you can't get trapped under the lip like you do on final destination.

Heck I even believe items should be on. Except for those stupid assist trophy's, but even then it wouldn't be so bad if they were allowed as well. Plus it also helps that MK has arguably the worst Final Smash, in that its hard to land and does crappy damage and can't kill unless the person is over 50%.


Dunno, thats just me though.
Scrub alert!
 

Linkshot

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Final Smash is what Sonic was meant to kill with, hence pulling out a Chaos Emerald in the winning screen.


No, I don't actually support this with money on the line.
 

Kamikaze*

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Am I the only one who feels that stages shouldn't be banned...?

I mean there is an equal chance of getting the star bonus or giant mushroom bonus from wario ware, or you could even make it so the opponent doesn't do what he is required to do to get that bonus (i.e. stopping him from taunting)...

You hoars banned all the fun stages <<

And I have no idea why 75m is banned, the stuff is all easy to avoid, unless you get smashed into it which is your fault.

I mean, if you really wanted to make it so there is only player skill level involved, you'd just get everyone to play the same character on a stupid custom stage where you can't get trapped under the lip like you do on final destination.

Heck I even believe items should be on. Except for those stupid assist trophy's, but even then it wouldn't be so bad if they were allowed as well. Plus it also helps that MK has arguably the worst Final Smash, in that its hard to land and does crappy damage and can't kill unless the person is over 50%.


Dunno, thats just me though.
i lol'd hard
 

Amazing Ampharos

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The point is that Final Destination is not any better than Lylat Cruise, Pokemon Stadium 1, Delfino Plaza, or the Halberd... unless you really love the Ice Climbers. Establishing that it's not on a level above those other stages is an argument for putting the others on the same level.

Also, let's increase the content level of the posting. One liners aren't really appropriate here.
 

fkacyan

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Rainbow Cruise is fine where it is, Final Destination is fine where it is.

Personally, I don't like Lylat and Yoshi's Island as neutrals (Lylat kills people just by moving, and Yoshi's saves people via the same method). That doesn't mean they aren't neutral, however.

Very few characters get gayed by Rainbow Cruise. MK is perfectly beatable there. Just step it up.
 

AvaricePanda

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Luigi's and Norfair are probably the worst choices that are legal for competitive brawl.
Worst, yes, but still worthy of being legal CPs.

Prove how green greens is stupid too
and corneria
and japes
and Rainbow Cruise
Green Greens is stupid because of the bombs/blocks of walls/apples, and I honestly haven't seen a tourney in which it wasn't banned.

Only serious reason for Corneria being debatable is the wall on the side for wall infinites. Other than that, the stage is just different. I can see it being banned just because of how many characters that do have wall infinites, and you really shouldn't have to worry about banning this stage but them still being able to use Delfinos, PS1, or something.

Japes is debatable because of the klaptraps in conjunction with the river. The river itself is no reason to ban, although the klaptraps are just stupid. The thing about this is, even though it comes every 10 seconds, being fully aware of where you are every 10 seconds, watching the clock, and still fighting your opponent normally. If you're recovering or getting hit in the water during that time, you're screwed because of an arbitrary hazard. I honestly see why people think it's a CP but would ban it personally if I ever hosted tourneys.

Rainbow Cruise being banned, what the heck are you smoking? There are absolutely no stage hazards. The stage in no way can kill you. It's just a moving stage, and it's easily navigatable. It promotes a different, aerial style of play. Neutral stages are supposed to be just that....neutral, and CP stages are supposed to be different while not hindering actual gameplay. Rainbow Cruise does exactly that.

And back to Norfair and Mansion. I kind of see where people are coming from when they think Norfair might be a problem with ledge-camping and such for MK and others, but I've never actually seen this in action (the Pirate Ship video helped me confirm its ban) or have had the strategy elaborated. We (obviously) can't know until it's played more, and as of right now it's not banworthy...so yeah.

I'm still failing to see ban-worthy problems with Mansion. All anyone's said is camping and running, which really isn't possible because the mansion is destructable. Unless people suggest anymore ideas of why the stage is "horrible", I'm sticking with CP.

edit: What AA said. One/two line responses are annoying. Saying a vague, baseless statement and then backing it up with another vague, baseless statement is hardly arguing your point and is just going to make people take you less seriously.
 

Kamikaze*

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Rainbow Cruise will always be a CP and not banned, so stop *****ing about the stage already.
It should. In FD nothing gets in the way or moves.

You know what? at first I was thinking some counterpicks would be okay, but now the more I think about it, other fighting games don't have to deal with this bull-****tery we call "adapting" It's just abusing the environment to to help you win because your fighting skill couldn't guide you there. If Rumble falls or any other crazy stages you may fight for become legal, I'll quit.

what the heck are you smoking?
Pot.
 

Maniclysane

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It should. In FD nothing gets in the way or moves.

You know what? at first I was thinking some counterpicks would be okay, but now the more I think about it, other fighting games don't have to deal with this bull-****tery we call "adapting" It's just abusing the environment to to help you win because your fighting skill couldn't guide you there. If Rumble falls or any other crazy stages you may fight for become legal, I'll quit.
Brawl isn't like other fighters. The way it's played, counter picks are needed. The playstyles between characters is so diverse, that if we only playd on FD, Diddy would pretty much win every time, IC's would ****, etc.

Street fighter would be terrible if it had a stage like BF or Norfair. It would be unplayable.

If Brawl had a stage like Street fighter, flat with two walls it would be unplayable.
 

fkacyan

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I'm still failing to see ban-worthy problems with Mansion. All anyone's said is camping and running, which really isn't possible because the mansion is destructable. Unless people suggest anymore ideas of why the stage is "horrible", I'm sticking with CP.
MK can spam tornado to kill percents and then dsmash you. It's 99% unavoidable, that 1% being when the MK screws up tornadoing. In fact, most matches on Mansion detiorate to who can use the ceiling to generate the most unavoidable percents.

The building can only be destroyed if you're not already being gayed.

Brawl isn't like other fighters. The way it's played, counter picks are needed. The playstyles between characters is so diverse, that if we only playd on FD, Diddy would pretty much win every time, IC's would ****, etc.

Street fighter would be terrible if it had a stage like BF or Norfair. It would be unplayable.

If Brawl had a stage like Street fighter, flat with two walls it would be unplayable.
Even I've never implied the games should be carbon copies of eachother. HOWEVER. Street Fighter is an excellent competitive game because it is balanced around that stage setup. Brawl is NOT balanced. At all. Sakurai was pretty clear that he did it on purpose. Thus, stage lists arbitrate that balance for us.

It was, is, and will be my opinion that stages are to correct flaws in character balance, assuming all variables are equal, which is how theorycrafting (God, WoW spawns so many things) works.
 

Linkshot

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I honestly couldn't care less if you quit, Kamikaze. I truly think Rumble Falls will add to the metagame in a very positive way.

I would love to test it out with Falcon VS Falco. Well, for it to be tested out. Ottawa could do it.
 

abhishekh

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Isn't it great when someone new to the forums, expresses his opinion, then gets spammed with unfamiliar terminology and things like, "Lol no, just no." without any sort of elaboration whatsoever?


Not so friendly up here .-.
 

abhishekh

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Lol thanks..

Whats a scrub?


And I also believe Rumble Falls (The one that moves vertically) would be nice.


It has like one hazard, and it tells you when it speeds up anyway and makes a beeping sound.
 

Ryusuta

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I'm really beginning to agree that Luigi's Mansion should be gotten rid of. There are just too many ceiling locks available there.
 
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