Ignore.

Steeler · May 6, 2009

Zigsta said:
I've never played a really good Samus, but I do think that Samus does better against Ivysaur since all of Samus's fire attacks do double the knockback. To my knowledge, these fire-based attacks of Samus's aren't normally kill moves on many characters (Again, correct me if I'm wrong here, as I don't play many Samuses in Brawl period.), but against Ivysaur, they can easily become kill moves.

it's just 10% more knockback, double knockback and squirtle would kill charizards at 50% with usmash.

dtilt is the only one you have to look out for, fair/usmash are weaksauce. but that's not why samus wins this. her spacing/zoning are just better, and ivysaur is heavily dependent on those things. i'd say 35/65 samus advantage, ivysaur is better up close than samus but samus will do a good job of keeping ivy out of that range.

squirtle is at least even and probably advantage, samus spacing doesn't phaze him much.

charizard i'll let pokemonmasterIRL comment for, he plays Hive all the time and zard is his fave in this matchup. but it's definitely not 3/7 disadvantage lol.

xyro i've been to two of your tourneys + oh snap and i've never played you. =[

Xyro77 · May 6, 2009

Steeler said:
it's just 10% more knockback, double knockback and squirtle would kill charizards at 50% with usmash.

dtilt is the only one you have to look out for, fair/usmash are weaksauce. but that's not why samus wins this. her spacing/zoning are just better, and ivysaur is heavily dependent on those things. i'd say 35/65 samus advantage, ivysaur is better up close than samus but samus will do a good job of keeping ivy out of that range.

squirtle is at least even and probably advantage, samus spacing doesn't phaze him much.

charizard i'll let pokemonmasterIRL comment for, he plays Hive all the time and zard is his fave in this matchup. but it's definitely not 3/7 disadvantage lol.

xyro i've been to two of your tourneys + oh snap and i've never played you. =[

yea steeler your right, how is that??!?!?!?!

I playd 2 pretty dang good pkmn trainers in cali. Squirtle is by far the hardest. ivy saur is a breeze. his kill moves ALL are lag filled so i never worried about getting in his face. I will admit UP+B suprised me alot when he used it in the air. ALso, my fire attacks only do 10% extra KNOCK BACK? No added damage? And charizard is SO **** huge that ALL of my pojectiles can rain on him. If i connstantly aim ZAIR at his head it shield pokes. Fast falling a uair to buffered UP+B eats charizard(well fatties in general) so thats a garanteed combo. oh and that 70-30 is MY opinion based of of playin those 2 pkmn tainers charizards in tourney. I am 100% willing to change it after i play/lean more about them.

Dabuz · May 6, 2009

What does the enemy think: olimar primarily in this matchup has to do 4 things to win,

1.camp with lots of pikmin because they stop every projectile samus has, even fully charged charge shot, red goes through missles and yellow goes through charge shot btw

2.grab lots, we can shieldgrab you, pivot grab you, regular grab you, ect.very easily and samus can avoid it because she can homing missile when she expects a grab to get out but can't counter it much without putting herself vulnerable in the air, oli can do lots of grab damge and followups, also, we can kill at 120% about with grabs

3. don't go aerial, you beat oli in the air with your zairs an such so oli should never go into the air and you won't be able to do much to him while he is grounded

4. outspace, its a given but oli needs to outspace samus which is easy considering range differences

How does Samus win/do well: 1. don't camp, play aggressive, try to get point blank and keep pressure, your attacks with go through olis attacks at close ange and he will go through yours but you need to get oli aerial like that(may be wrong, someone test on that)

2.you will rely on gimping oli like in most matchups because samus can't outright kill oli reasonably, grab->zair->missile->dair is really really reliable against oli at low percents if you can get the grab

3.air approach, you can't approach oli on ground, don't bother, you will need a smart air approach game, one mistake and oli can easily punish all your air approaches so i hope you can mix it up smartly

4.nair!!!!!!!! our nair with stop incoming non purple pikmin and your dair can get off most pikmin attached, don't make it a primary concern whe nyou are close though unless its white pikmin

What should Samus watch out for: grabs, pikmin, smashes, spacing, up-b/upair/nair/fair/upsmash/pivo grab to stop air appoaches, WAC to stop all knockback from attacks

What stages should Samus counter pick/Ban: cp: rc, japes, bf ban: mansion, fd

overall this matchup is 75-25 olis advantage or 70-30 depending on matchup experience, pick up marth, peach, luigi, or...GASP mk to counter oli

Excellence · May 6, 2009

I'd say that Olimar versus Samus is a 75 - 25 match-up in Olimar's favor. Samus likes to use lots of projectiles however Olimar's Pikmin completely cancel out Samus' projectile game and then some. The only thing remaining for Samus is to approach which is also bad for Samus because her main weapons of approach (Z-Air and Projectiles) are cancelled out by Olimar's Forward Smash, retreating Pikmin Toss, and Pivot Grab. Off the stage, Samus can't really edgeguard Olimar too well because her aerials aren't really that difficult to see coming. Samus' ZAir can be cancelled out with Whistled. Same goes for her spike and slow moving projectiles or even full Charge Shots. As far as stages go, I'd say Olimar works better than Samus on all the same stages that Samus would try to counterpick except maybe Frigate or Rainbow Cruise (if she can even CP that). I'd imagine the key for Samus winning would be to get Olimar off the stage by playing like an aggressive Toon Link and wearing down his shield with projectiles and ZAir, then preying off of his limited options once he's at the edge of the stage and finally getting him off stage.

Magik0722 · May 6, 2009

i havent really played any good metroids except for xyro over 1000 years ago. well maybe some if remains true so take this with a grain of salt.
Squirtle seemed to work the best, the zair would travel over me since i was so small unless he did a falling zair and hydroplane seemed to always connect especially when he was doing a zair and this was before i even knew about foward hydroplane.
Ivy did ok but i didnt get much testing except i did a few bullet seeds on him to get him to 100% then got gimped.
I pretty much switched out of zard right away after the first match since i couldnt get past the zair wall

Ravin · May 6, 2009

Jabs knock pikmin off and Zair owns Lolimar. Dont play stupid. Edge as much as you can.

Excellence · May 6, 2009

What? You sit there and try to jab off the Pikmin, Olimar will make you pay for it. That is one of the number one mistakes a person can make: Trying to remove Pikmin in a situation where you will be rewarded with punishment or more Pikmin. ZAir does not own Olimar, because he can easily shield it or just run away. At some point you get close enough where he can Forward Smash you before or afterward while you can't do anything back. Edgegame and aggression are you best bet here.

Crystanium · May 6, 2009

Ravin said:
Jabs knock pikmin off and Zair owns Lolimar. Dont play stupid. Edge as much as you can.

N-air also works really well if the Pikmin latch onto you. You can also use it to kick Pikmin who are being thrown at you. It's called "Sex Kick" for a reason. Here is a useful tip. There is a difference between the Pikmin who are thrown at you that latch on you and the kind who do not. Those that latch onto you will make a noise when they are thrown, but the kind who do not latch, don't make a noise when they are thrown.

Excellence said:
What? You sit there and try to jab off the Pikmin, Olimar will make you pay for it. That is one of the number one mistakes a person can make: Trying to remove Pikmin in a situation where you will be rewarded with punishment or more Pikmin.

Yeah, Ravin just sits there and does nothing else when he sees Olimar approach or throw more Pikmin. How many frames does it take to throw a Pikmin? Samus' jab on takes three frames. The last time I checked, Olimar can't walk forward while throwing his Pikmin.

Excellence said:
ZAir does not own Olimar, because he can easily shield it or just run away.

Mach Tornado does not own Kirby, because he can easily shield it or just run away.

That isn't convincing.

Excellence said:
At some point you get close enough where he can Forward Smash you before or afterward while you can't do anything back.

That's kind of hard to perform when you have Homing Missiles in conjunction with z-air, isn't it?

Ravin · May 6, 2009

Because you know, Samus Jab is punishable when Lolimar is camping on the other side of the map. Throw more pikmin? Ill just smile and wait.

Zair goes threw all pikmin but purple

Edit - If Lolimar is spamming he has a predictable pattern. As long as you dont panic when you have pikmin being thrown like babies in your direction, the matchup isnt too hard EVEN thou i still say its 60-40 olimar. But its winnable.

Super Cool Second Edit - The only thing I worry about with Lolimar is his grabs and Utilt and Aerials.

Excellence · May 6, 2009

Dryn said:
Yeah, Ravin just sits there and does nothing else when he sees Olimar approach or throw more Pikmin. How many frames does it take to throw a Pikmin? Samus' jab on takes three frames. The last time I checked, Olimar can't walk forward while throwing his Pikmin.

Mach Tornado does not own Kirby, because he can easily shield it or just run away.

That isn't convincing.

That's kind of hard to perform when you have Homing Missiles in conjunction with z-air, isn't it?

Regardless of whether or not Ravin sees the Pikmin or Olimar coming, there isn't much he can do about it which is why this match-up is impossible for Samus to win if she's playing a compitent Olimar player. Samus does NOT have ranged attacks other than her ZAir and Projectiles. If Olimar is approaching her or using Pikmin Toss she will use either of the two if she's looking to trade hits, or she won't trade hits at all. There is nothing else left for her to do. ZAir Olimar can shield or Forward Smash when she's close enough, anything approaches Samus makes out of the air are suicide. It takes 9 frames for Olimar's Pikmin to begin latching after being tossed, but that number isn't nearly as slow as it seems considering that Pikmin lag attacks and do damage once latched very quickly. If Samus is just trying to jab off Pikmin she WILL be overwhelmed. Often, Olimar isn't even on the ground while he's throwing Pikmin he's shorthopping forward or backward while throwing his Pikmin. I guess he can't short hop forward while tossing Pikmin.

Mach Tornado and Samus' Z-Air are two two totally different leagues. Mach Tornado is multihitting, can rise, and can be used to traverse the stage VERY quickly. Samus' ZAir is nothing of the sort. Your Z-Air has a single hit that can be shielded or Olimar can runaway from you while you're trying to get in range. It really doesn't matter which because in no way does Z-Air = Tornado.

No it is not hard to perform at all. There's a super advanced technique that only the top players are using that's called DUCKING. Samus' Homing Missiles should pass right over Olimar's head. ZAir has to be a little more accurate than normal to hit Olimar so ducking also helps in that department. Even without ducking, when you launch Homing Missiles from certain heights they still pass over Olimar's head. And it's not like Olimar can't spam Forward Smash and/or Side B to stop the Missiles if it ever got that bad, but it shouldn't ever get that sever.

Crystanium · May 6, 2009

Excellence said:
Regardless of whether or not Ravin sees the Pikmin or Olimar coming, there isn't much he can do about it which is why this match-up is impossible for Samus to win if she's playing a compitent Olimar player.

I wouldn't say that "this match-up is impossible for Samus to win if she's playing a compitent [sic] Olimar player." I'm not saying the advantage isn't in Olimar's favor, but I think people have picked up the idea that Olimar is one of Samus' worst match-ups. The worst Samus would have to deal with, I'd say, would be characters like Meta Knight and Marth, and some others.

Excellence said:
Samus does NOT have ranged attacks other than her ZAir and Projectiles. If Olimar is approaching her or using Pikmin Toss she will use either of the two if she's looking to trade hits, or she won't trade hits at all. There is nothing else left for her to do. ZAir Olimar can shield or Forward Smash when she's close enough, anything approaches Samus makes out of the air are suicide. It takes 9 frames for Olimar's Pikmin to begin latching after being tossed, but that number isn't nearly as slow as it seems considering that Pikmin lag attacks and do damage once latched very quickly. If Samus is just trying to jab off Pikmin she WILL be overwhelmed. Often, Olimar isn't even on the ground while he's throwing Pikmin he's shorthopping forward or backward while throwing his Pikmin. I guess he can't short hop forward while tossing Pikmin.

Z-air affects the Pikmin, except for the yellow Pikmin. Ravin is saying the purple aren't affected. Anyway, you're saying that if Samus approaches from the air, it's suicide. If Samus approaches from the ground, it's the same, wouldn't you say? N-air cuts through Pikmin, because it's a Sex Kick. It lingers out longer than other attack.

It's been a while since I have played Brawl. When I get back to playing on my Wii, I'll be sure to fight some Olimar mains to get more information. Oh, and I hope you weren't taking what I said seriously about the jab. I never do that.

Excellence said:
Mach Tornado and Samus' Z-Air are two two totally different leagues. Mach Tornado is multihitting, can rise, and can be used to traverse the stage VERY quickly. Samus' ZAir is nothing of the sort. Your Z-Air has a single hit that can be shielded or Olimar can runaway from you while you're trying to get in range. It really doesn't matter which because in no way does Z-Air = Tornado.

Your argument still isn't convincing that Olimar could just shield or run away. Mach Tornado can be shielded or avoided by running away. That's all there is to it. It doesn't matter if the two attacks don't work the same way. I'm not playing some role-playing game here.

"Samus used z-air to hit Olimar."

"Olimar used his shield to avoid getting hit."

No. If that's the case,

"Falco fired his Blaster."

"Samus shielded the Blaster."

Excellence said:
No it is not hard to perform at all. There's a super advanced technique that only the top players are using that's called DUCKING. Samus' Homing Missiles should pass right over Olimar's head.

Ducking is anything but "a super advanced technique," unless you're being equivocal here and Olimar has some advanced technique that Olimar mains call "Ducking." Homing Missiles won't pass over Olimar's head, because they're "Homing" Missiles. And if it's passing by, then the Samus you're fighting is short hopping Homing Missiles right next to Olimar.

Excellence said:
ZAir has to be a little more accurate than normal to hit Olimar so ducking also helps in that department.

Accuracy is only problematic online. And your connection is a bit laggy the last time we played. However, you were using Meta Knight, not Olimar.

Excellence said:
Even without ducking, when you launch Homing Missiles from certain heights they still pass over Olimar's head.

Have you been fighting some Samus mains on Lag-Fi when using Olimar? Unless the lag is so bad that a short hop ends up being a full hop, Homing Missiles should not be passing over Olimar's head, nor should these Homing Missiles be fired from "certain heights."

Excellence said:
And it's not like Olimar can't spam Forward Smash and/or Side B to stop the Missiles if it ever got that bad, but it shouldn't ever get that sever.

Much better. Here's the problem. Olimar mains camp like Samus. The matches might take more than a match against two Sonic players. If Samus is forced to approach, so be it. N-air kills Pikmin, which forces Olimar to use Pikmin Pluck, because without your Pikmin, Olimar is useless. It's probably not a good idea to be using f-smash when Samus is using z-air, since she can move forward or backwards. The length of z-air is, I dare say, longer than Olimar's f-smash.

Ravin · May 6, 2009

I hope hes heard of jab canceling. Samus is not going to be overwhelmed.

Samus zair is multihitting single targets, meaning it can go threw something, and still hit the person behind it. (Like teams for example, you can go threw one person, and hit the other person behind them. So in a way. Its better and worse then the tornado.)

Im more worried about Olimars Tilts and grabs then his smashes. Sorry to say. They have higher proirty. Wanna know something funny? Samus's falling Uair has proirtiy over olimars Uair if hes under her. So it seems if any of your attacks his olimars, you have proirty over it if your attack has multiple hits.

Also, if pikmin are latched on you and you use up B, it flings the pikmin off Samus for 15 seconds and become INACTIVE unless olimar calls them back.

If olimar ducks, missles will still hit him. Just throw pikmin like babies. Its k.

If olimar is running away Samus will do the same, and eventually He runs out of pikmin if he stands and camps, but Samus works on baiting more then anything, and if your jab canceling to easily shake off the pikmin that have almost no proirty on grounded or aerial attacks (NOT PROJECTILES) then your simply weakening olimars current pikmin.

If anything Olimar should be IN samus's face and not ranged fighting because that isn't what he should be doing considering Samus Mid and Far game is her best, and considering she weak in close combat where olimar strongly excels, tell you something.

Excellence · May 6, 2009

Dryn said:
I wouldn't say that "this match-up is impossible for Samus to win if she's playing a compitent [sic] Olimar player." I'm not saying the advantage isn't in Olimar's favor, but I think people have picked up the idea that Olimar is one of Samus' worst match-ups. The worst Samus would have to deal with, I'd say, would be characters like Meta Knight and Marth, and some others.

It's not impossible, I was wrong for say that, but its definitely too hard and you should not be able to win against a good Olimar or someone on your own level of skill. I played Xyro a while back (it may have changed) but he said that Olimar was Samus' second worst match-up.

Dryn said:
Z-air affects the Pikmin, except for the yellow Pikmin. Ravin is saying the purple aren't affected. Anyway, you're saying that if Samus approaches from the air, it's suicide. If Samus approaches from the ground, it's the same, wouldn't you say? N-air cuts through Pikmin, because it's a Sex Kick. It lingers out longer than other attack.

Yes, Samus' Z-Air will beat all Pikmin except Yellow and Purple. Yellow will latch if it's in range and Purple will hit if it is in range. For Samus to approach Olimar from the air is difficult, but its not impossible and its her best bet when approaching. For Samus to approach Olimar on the ground should be impossible. I don't see what Samus could do to Olimar while she's on the ground without finder herself eating a Forward Smash or getting grabbed. Are you saying that Samus is supposed to SH NAir then FF down using the linger hitbox to get in an approach? Because I don't think that should work for longer either. Olimar can N-Air into it, Pivot Grab it (unless he's against the edge which is probably when you'll want to do it), or Up Special it (risky and not too advised but possible).

Dryn said:
It's been a while since I have played Brawl. When I get back to playing on my Wii, I'll be sure to fight some Olimar mains to get more information. Oh, and I hope you weren't taking what I said seriously about the jab. I never do that.

Oh sorry, I thought you were seriously considering jab as an anti-camp strategy.

Dryn said:
Your argument still isn't convincing that Olimar could just shield or run away. Mach Tornado can be shielded or avoided by running away. That's all there is to it. It doesn't matter if the two attacks don't work the same way. I'm not playing some role-playing game here.

"Samus used z-air to hit Olimar."

"Olimar used his shield to avoid getting hit."

No. If that's the case,

"Falco fired his Blaster."

"Samus shielded the Blaster."

I don't see where you're going with this or are you just saying that I'm wrong? I don't see what's so unconvincing about it. If Olimar shields Samus' Z-Air then he's still on the ground and there shouldn't be too many things Samus can do from the range that she's at after using her Z-Air so Olimar should be safe on the shield. What I mean by runaway is, if Samus jumps then you retreat whatever you're doing. I'm not sure if you can even use the Blaster example because Blaster is stationary and can be used to reset the situation of Samus shielding the blaster again (until she can no longer shield) from any range that's out of Samus' reach. Samus Z-Air does have that much versatility.

Dryn said:
Ducking is anything but "a super advanced technique," unless you're being equivocal here and Olimar has some advanced technique that Olimar mains call "Ducking." Homing Missiles won't pass over Olimar's head, because they're "Homing" Missiles. And if it's passing by, then the Samus you're fighting is short hopping Homing Missiles right next to Olimar.

Yeah, I know ducking isn't super advanced, I was joking there. Sorry, I was thinking Super Missile, big mistake on my part. Z-Air + Homing Missile is sort of annoying, but I don't think it's really difficult to get around. You should be using this to approach. Even a combination of Homing and Super Missiles might be effective.

Dryn said:
Have you been fighting some Samus mains on Lag-Fi when using Olimar? Unless the lag is so bad that a short hop ends up being a full hop, Homing Missiles should not be passing over Olimar's head, nor should these Homing Missiles be fired from "certain heights."

My knowledge of Samus comes from me partically using Samus, online and offline experience against Samus as Olimar. I was thinking of Super Missile, so I'm completely off with the Homing Missile situation. They do not pass over Olimar's head, as you know.

Dryn said:
Much better. Here's the problem. Olimar mains camp like Samus. The matches might take more than a match against two Sonic players. If Samus is forced to approach, so be it. N-air kills Pikmin, which forces Olimar to use Pikmin Pluck, because without your Pikmin, Olimar is useless. It's probably not a good idea to be using f-smash when Samus is using z-air, since she can move forward or backwards. The length of z-air is, I dare say, longer than Olimar's f-smash.

Don't get the idea that Olimar's Pikmin die easily. I would imagine that the "sexy kick" does a little damage and Pikmin do have HP so they should return to Olimar. Plucking Pikmin should also be done as they're being knocked off to save time, so I'm not sure if you want to include that whole bit about N-Air to kill Pikmin. I think that Olimar should be able to punish Z-Air and if he can't then Samus shouldn't be able to do anything but Z-Air again.

After all this, I like your best bet to approach and stay safe are Homing Missile (to bait shield and defend against possible pivot grabs) and Z-Air to keep Olimar from getting to you and push him toward or off the ledge.

Ravin · May 6, 2009

Standing Smash missiles will hit Olimar...

If he ducks you MC Homing to Smash.

DelxDoom · May 6, 2009

Going over some points here; I mostly disagree with a couple of things Dryn said.

1. Pikmin pluck is fast and not very punishable.
2. Whistle is also fast and not that punishable and it has invincibility frames.

That being said.

Olimar is one of Samus's "not terrible" matchups because you can kill Olimar at low percents if you gimp them.

Olimars try their hardest not to get gimped.

Olimar has a better camping game than Samus. But tbh, both of their camping games are easily dealt with by the other character.

Olimar has a small advantage. Samus is ridiculously difficult to kill. Both characters should have a hard time.

Samus's zair is easier to deal with than Falco's laser in most respects. However, it is more powerful and can link into other moves a bit more effectively.

Samus players jump too much.

Some facts.

also; i don't understand how Dryn argues sometimes, but I also don't understand the people he argues with when I don't understand how Dryn argues. meh.

I hate using Smash missiles. >.> toooooo slowwwwww. but that's personal preference.

Well spaced zairs are difficult to punish, and max range zairs are pretty much unpunishable. same kinda goes for pikmin throw. >.>

Ravin · May 6, 2009

Not talking about punishing pikmin throw.

Its like when you learn to perfect sheild falcos laser spam. Olimar gets frustrated when he sees you standing there jabbing the pikmin off with ease and not taking damage. Thus a successful bait.

Excellence · May 6, 2009

DelxDoom said:
Going over some points here; I mostly disagree with a couple of things Dryn said.

1. Pikmin pluck is fast and not very punishable.
2. Whistle is also fast and not that punishable and it has invincibility frames.

That being said.

Olimar is one of Samus's "not terrible" matchups because you can kill Olimar at low percents if you gimp them.

Olimar is one of Samus' TERRIBLE match-ups.

Olimars try their hardest not to get gimped.

Olimar has a better camping game than Samus. But tbh, both of their camping games are easily dealt with by the other character.

Samus does NOT easily deal with Olimar's camp game because Olimar's Pikmin block missiles and can be launched over them to get in latches. On a similar note, Olimar's Pikmin do passive damage which means while you're trying to attack you're getting damage while Olimar blocks.

Olimar has a small advantage. Samus is ridiculously difficult to kill. Both characters should have a hard time.

Samus is not difficult to kill because she is always in the air leaving you vulnerable to running Up Smashes at 100%. Grabs will kill Samus reliably at 120% and with you needing to approach Pivot Grabs aren't too difficult to land.

Samus's zair is easier to deal with than Falco's laser in most respects. However, it is more powerful and can link into other moves a bit more effectively.

Samus players jump too much.

Some facts.

also; i don't understand how Dryn argues sometimes, but I also don't understand the people he argues with when I don't understand how Dryn argues. meh.

I hate using Smash missiles. >.> toooooo slowwwwww. but that's personal preference.

Well spaced zairs are difficult to punish, and max range zairs are pretty much unpunishable. same kinda goes for pikmin throw. >.>

Olimar's Side B can punish anything.

Comments in red.

DelxDoom · May 7, 2009

it's really hard to punish max range landing zair.

it also knocks non yellows off of samus if it hits any pikmin.

no lag. can then buffer first jab or f tilt. I don't even know if it's possible to punish; player error makes it possible to punish above all else..

Crystanium · May 7, 2009

Excellence said:
It's not impossible, I was wrong for say that, but its definitely too hard and you should not be able to win against a good Olimar or someone on your own level of skill. I played Xyro a while back (it may have changed) but he said that Olimar was Samus' second worst match-up.

I'm not sure about Xyro. People have different experiences, and it's one of the unusual things when it comes to fighting games. For example, I might have an easier time fighting Diddy Kong with Samus than some other Samus mains here. It's still in Diddy Kong's favor. And I have fought good Diddy Kong mains.

I've also done a few friendlies with L_Cancel in the past. He mains Olimar. If I took the time to become familiar with the way Olimar works, I might not have as much trouble. One of the things I did notice, however, was when I camped back, the matches were a bit easier. I still lost, of course. I'd say Olimar is one of Samus' toughest, but not one of Samus' worst.

Excellence said:
Yes, Samus' Z-Air will beat all Pikmin except Yellow and Purple. Yellow will latch if it's in range and Purple will hit if it is in range. For Samus to approach Olimar from the air is difficult, but its not impossible and its her best bet when approaching. For Samus to approach Olimar on the ground should be impossible. I don't see what Samus could do to Olimar while she's on the ground without finder herself eating a Forward Smash or getting grabbed. Are you saying that Samus is supposed to SH NAir then FF down using the linger hitbox to get in an approach? Because I don't think that should work for longer either. Olimar can N-Air into it, Pivot Grab it (unless he's against the edge which is probably when you'll want to do it), or Up Special it (risky and not too advised but possible).

Pressuring Olimar while grounded is one of Samus' good ways to get to Olimar. He can duck when it comes to Super Missiles, but I believe if he is standing up or walking or running, he can be hit by Super Missiles. Whether or not the Super Missiles hit is irrelevant, since the purpose is to pressure and deter while Samus is approaching. If they land, that's just a bonus. As for the air, I'm only saying n-air kicks the Pikmin off of Samus. There isn't any fastfalling or landing in front of Olimar. That way is punishable. While approaching, she can jump over the Pikmin, since they're thrown horizontally. If Olimar jumps and throws his Pikmin, then Samus should use n-air to kick the Pikmin off and away. It's not easy as it sounds. I know. You are right, though. One of Samus' best bets in this match is to be aggressive.

Excellence said:
I don't see where you're going with this or are you just saying that I'm wrong? I don't see what's so unconvincing about it. If Olimar shields Samus' Z-Air then he's still on the ground and there shouldn't be too many things Samus can do from the range that she's at after using her Z-Air so Olimar should be safe on the shield. What I mean by runaway is, if Samus jumps then you retreat whatever you're doing. I'm not sure if you can even use the Blaster example because Blaster is stationary and can be used to reset the situation of Samus shielding the blaster again (until she can no longer shield) from any range that's out of Samus' reach. Samus Z-Air does have that much versatility.

My point is that simply saying, "It can be shielded" isn't a good enough argument. Sure, it can, but if you're going to say that about Samus' z-air, why not say that Samus' Charge Shot can also be shield? My point with the z-air was that it has very good range, and so Samus can avoid being grabbed as she is landing or getting hit with an f-smash, that's all. The other example with Falco is the Blaster. You can shield it, and it fires faster than Samus' z-air comes out. I'm not sure about being stationary, though, as Falco can approach forward while using his Blaster.

Excellence said:
Yeah, I know ducking isn't super advanced, I was joking there. Sorry, I was thinking Super Missile, big mistake on my part. Z-Air + Homing Missile is sort of annoying, but I don't think it's really difficult to get around. You should be using this to approach. Even a combination of Homing and Super Missiles might be effective.

Agreed.

Excellence said:
My knowledge of Samus comes from me partically using Samus, online and offline experience against Samus as Olimar. I was thinking of Super Missile, so I'm completely off with the Homing Missile situation. They do not pass over Olimar's head, as you know.

Don't sweat it.

Excellence said:
Don't get the idea that Olimar's Pikmin die easily. I would imagine that the "sexy kick" does a little damage and Pikmin do have HP so they should return to Olimar. Plucking Pikmin should also be done as they're being knocked off to save time, so I'm not sure if you want to include that whole bit about N-Air to kill Pikmin. I think that Olimar should be able to punish Z-Air and if he can't then Samus shouldn't be able to do anything but Z-Air again.

To be sure. I was just bringing up n-air, because that's a good way to knock the Pikmin off. It's been a while since I've fought any Olimar mains, so I'm only basing my information off of memory. If the Pikmin do not die from n-air, then all right. It's still good to get them off, though.

Excellence said:
After all this, I like your best bet to approach and stay safe are Homing Missile (to bait shield and defend against possible pivot grabs) and Z-Air to keep Olimar from getting to you and push him toward or off the ledge.

Camping does work exceptionally well. Like I said before, when I fought L_Cancel, there was a slight difference in how the match turned out when I was camping. I thought, "If he's going to camp, so will I."

Anyway, I'm out for the night. I'll see you later. Maybe we can do some matches in the future, but this time, use Olimar. :laugh:

Xyro77 · May 7, 2009

IMO olimar is samus 2nd hardest fight. sure you can gimp olimar but honestly that same tactic is used on olimar for EVERY character so you already KNOW that will be avoiding that at all costs. samus cannot apply pressure when all of her spam is getting eat up.

the one PLUS i see is zair s hit box is AS BIG as olimar him self. this can shield poke VERY WELL.

another plus is i KNOW olimars hate japes and pirate ship.

Can any olimar tell us what you guys CP when it comes to stages? BF?

DelxDoom · May 7, 2009

I'm somewhat sure that bthrow won't kill Samus at 120 if your zoning and DI are good enough.

Purple/blue up throws are reliable at 150+ though.

Olimar is a hard fight for everyone...

But for some reason, I have a feeling that if the Samus player plays this CERTAIN way vs a Olimar player, the Olimar player will have a decently hard time. This might be completely false, but I just think that for some reason. I think we'll have to find that playstyle to be effective...

Excellence · May 7, 2009

Xyro77 said:
IMO olimar is samus 2nd hardest fight. sure you can gimp olimar but honestly that same tactic is used on olimar for EVERY character so you already KNOW that will be avoiding that at all costs. samus cannot apply pressure when all of her spam is getting eat up.

the one PLUS i see is zair s hit box is AS BIG as olimar him self. this can shield poke VERY WELL.

another plus is i KNOW olimars hate japes and pirate ship.

Can any olimar tell us what you guys CP when it comes to stages? BF?

Olimar usually perfers platforms, stages that extend closer to the blast zone, and lower ceilings. We'll usually CP you to Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Luigi's Mansion, Battlefield and Yoshi Story.

We hate stages with lots of water amd recovery obsticals: Rainbow Cruise, Jungle Japes, Pirate Ship (not bad enough to ban, but its not good), Norfair (not bad enough to ban but still not good either).

Lord Viper · May 8, 2009

☆ I see the Samus boards are multi tasking on match up's. I'll throw my few cents on the Kirby match up. I believe Samus has the upper hand on this match because Samus has a lot of projectiles that can push Kirby from pushing most of Samus's after attacks, or her Z-Air. >.< ☆

☆ Most of the Kirby mains say this match up is even 50-50, I'll say 45-55 Samus because a few things I just stated, her having more larger hitbox attacks, useful projectiles, and good weight. But I'll say this, you have to choose wisely of what stage you want to take Kirby on, stage's like Pokemon Stadium is asked for Kirby to win vs Samus, but pick stages that are flat, and have little to no activity is in your hands by a differences of percent. ☆

Werk! · May 8, 2009

One thing I've seen from facing NC-Echo is that if any Pikmen are latched on to Samus, her D-air will lag from the Pikmen, extending the active hitbox--and then kill all the Pikmen afterwards (Assuming not much move degen, haven't tested with d-air spam). It's not much, but it messes around with Oli's shield-grabbing and forces him to restock if he's just spamming Side-B to shield-grabs as you're approaching.

Also, force Oli to MOVE and JUMP if at all possible. His best position, from my experience, is just stationary camping with grabs, side-B, and smashes. Get a stage with large horizonal distance and back-jump => HMC bombard him. Minimize your hitbox with backjumps/2nd jumps to avoid side-B, and HMC in between the Pikmen. Oli fights campy, and while his approaches are still decent, forcing him to be aggressive is IMO a strong tactic and leaves openings to grab him (god forbid).

Also, the more he moves, the more his Pikmen randomly dsynch--always a good thing.

Xyro77 · May 8, 2009

Viper JLT4GOV said:
☆ I see the Samus boards are multi tasking on match up's. I'll throw my few cents on the Kirby match up. I believe Samus has the upper hand on this match because Samus has a lot of projectiles that can push Kirby from pushing most of Samus's after attacks, or her Z-Air. >.< ☆

☆ Most of the Kirby mains say this match up is even 50-50, I'll say 45-55 Samus because a few things I just stated, her having more larger hitbox attacks, useful projectiles, and good weight. But I'll say this, you have to choose wisely of what stage you want to take Kirby on, stage's like Pokemon Stadium is asked for Kirby to win vs Samus, but pick stages that are flat, and have little to no activity is in your hands by a differences of percent. ☆

im doing all 4 of the match-ups for ONE MONTH. so its on match-up per week.

so you are saying flat stages are bad for kirby but stages with platforms are good for him? well honestly i LOVE stadium cause its a mix of both.

Cherry64 · May 8, 2009

Heed his words Xyro don't take a kirby to Halberd dude, there it seems liek it's 60-40 for kirby but everyone else it seems neutral to me.

Frank27 · May 10, 2009

WOW im surprised Wolf isnt up there i get tired of noobs spamming theiverr lasers then smash attacking every breathe they can get

Rhyme · May 11, 2009

Before getting down to business, HI DNESSS! Mr. Blast from the Past himself. Lol. Yes I play Samus, but I still hold onto my Kirby and Olimar for some matchups.

That being said, I do not use my Kirby for the Olimar matchup. Through my experience I find that (Olimar dittos are unreliable and better left to friendlies) Samus is my preferred character to use against Olimar.

To what Xyro said about stage counterpicking (which has already been covered by Excellence), Olimar likes stages that give him room to manuver and camp (so a bit of space with a platform or two). Olimar also loves stages that he can Uair through the edge/stage because it decreases the stage pressure he faces when trying to get from the ledge to the stage.

This matchup still looks like it's way too far up in the air for it to be agreed upon, even by people within the same character board.

Hive · May 14, 2009

pokemon trainer is 60-40ish in pokemon trainer's favor (you won't see this until high levels of play though). I'll elaborate on this more later (i've been off smashboards for awhile so i'd have to catch up lol), but as a summary its basically squirtle that will cause this to be in his favor, he actually does very well against samus. Charizard actually does decently against samus too, which surprises a lot of people bc of his size and spammability. Samus still has a slight advantage on charzy though. Ivysaur gets pwned by samus, however, will almost rarely be used against samus with a player that knows the matchup, or who knows the character chart on the p.t. boards. Its not uncommon that ivy will be pulled out almost immediately after coming in. why? kill percent (dtilt 110%ish) and zair outprioritizing all of his spams and bair mainly.

ShadowLink84 · May 15, 2009

I was gonig to post about Sonic but...I don't want to add more to your plate. I'll just...wait...a little bit...

And well...darknes beat me to it...

I feel useless now =(

Jim Morrison · May 15, 2009

If you still need help with Sonic because there's little info, I suppose I could help. I don't have any actual expierence though.

Your projectiles will be one of the most useless things they have been in any matchup (however still not completely useless). You should shoot no more than a SH Missle + grounded missle and then use Z-air to keep Sonic away. Don't attempt to do more than one double missle, cause Sonic runs over FD in less than a second (lol I love bringing that up). Beam Shot will be hard to load, mainly because even when we are knocked away and you load, we (at least I would) ASC (Aerial Spin Charge, down-B in the air) and continue into a roll into you which gives you minimal amount of loading time. Small shots can be useful. Projectiles work offstage well too.

Z-air should be used to keep Sonic at midrange, you do not want him to get any closer than a tipper Z-air. Space this, I'm sure you can. Once Sonic gets in he has the upper hand because of punishment and fakeouts (think of Side-B shield cancel, Vertical Spindash Jump, Spinshot over you). Your Jab should be used to get him out of close combat (I'm not sure if you can shield the 2nd hit, I've been told jab has very short hitstun, but I don't know much about the hitstun on that) or any other move that is quick. Space your close moves as Sonic doesn't have many quick and ranged moves except for U-tilt, D-tilt and F-smash, which all take over at least 11 frames to get out (IIRC) and are not what he wants to use if he wants to stay in your face (well, maybe D-tilt). His Tilts are mediocre, but his smashes are pretty sweet. Hyphen Smash is cool, it goes far, F-smash is the main killer, has decent priority, good range and is a fairly quick smash. D-smash lasts long and spotdodges get hit by the small last hit (unless timed/spaced properly).

Aerially, both beat each other at certain points. I thought Samus was above midweight, but really floaty and hard to juggle. Still, Sonics U-air is really disjointed and good. Your B-air is faster than ours and probably outranges it. Sonics F-air is his fastest aerial and is autocanceled from a SH. Your U-air probably beats out our D-air. N-air is a sex kick, which Sonic isn't good against. You should not bother about Sonics N-air. Watch out for B-air kills.
Sonic can kill off the top with a Spring U-air, might you be high in the air, about the top of the screen. Watch out. Sonic is a character that depends on punishing, but your aerials have little to no lag. Good for you

Sonics recovery is one of the most versatile and unpredictable recoveries there is. If you are doing it right, you shouldn't need Spring, but it's a fun move

. While Sonic is springing you should be using U-tilt (we can still airdodge, attack and footstool out of it). You can also grab Sonic out of his Spring, like you can with Snake and lol while he dies. D-air spiking isn't as easy as it sounds because we can airdodge before we're even halfway up and we have invincibility frames when we spring (for the first half). Edgehogging for a long time is useless, as Sonic can jump off your head when you have no infzy frames on the edge. If you come across a stupid Sonic using Homing Attack (neutral B) to try to recover (ESPECIALLY WHEN BELOW THE STAGE), use a spotdodge as he falls to his doom. Spinshot is a terrible option as well. Hit him out of it and watch how he is forced to Spring or use HA because he wasted it's second jump.
Sonics recovery is very so superior to you. This does not mean a good Samus gets gimped often. Your tether recovery is good, but a (h)edgehog takes care of that. This forces an up-B. Now this will be used so that it hits Sonic, or at least make him go off the edge so you can grab the edge. Sonic is pretty good in edgeguarding, with his D-air, Spring, F-air and B-air. D-air is great because the sweetspot semi spikes and we still make it back. Just try to stay on stage and avoid any contact with ledge.

Killing for you should be done by B-air and F-smash near the ledge. Sonic has a sort of bucket cancel, but a bit slower (his side/down-B). You should watch out for the 3 killing moves, F-smash, D-smash and B-air. Don't use your shield sparingly, Sonic hasn't got much shield degrading moves.

Sonics grab game is amazingly superior to you. He has more chances to grab, more damage, less punishable, and better followups. If you get grabbed, don't expect just 12% from the U-throw, but expect to be hit by something else after it. But that's more a mindgame and isn't that relevant to the matchup. D-throw can be teched immedeatly in front of Sonic, but your only option is to jab or he can shield. Sonic's U-throw kills at 200% or so and sets up for juggles, but you're light so shouldn't be hit by more than one U-air. I can't really go into detail about your grabs, because you might pull one or two off, and I don't know any followups or what you can do either <_<

Long write-up is long... I don't have any Samus expierence, but I do/did play her sometimes. Samus should keep Sonic away as much as possible. Don't let him get into close range. In the air Sonic and Samus are equally matched IMO. Offstage Sonic has the upper hand. Close range Sonic has the upper hand, because that's his only option because of his moveset. Far away, Samus has the obvious upper hand. Use Z-air, tilts, jabs, and moves with as less lag as possible.

I'd give this ratio 55:45 Samus, but Sonic has many mindgames that can't be accounted here, but do count in the game. It's one of the most even matches if you play it.

Also, any "I can do X to Sonics roll attack" should be disregarded because Sonics don't approach with that.

Xyro77 · May 15, 2009

Does any smaus main want compile some data to write an article on any of the match-ups we have talked about so far? It seems like im doing all the work. Some on eplease help me out.

also Gf2tw thank you for giving us some info. I play Mr.3000 all the time and agree with like 90% with what all you said. The ONLY thing i disagree with is i think its 60-40 in sonics favor. Mr. 3000 ALWAYS rushes in the MOMENT i go in the air. Its to prevent me from firing missles/zair.

Jim Morrison · May 15, 2009

60:40? That's blasphemy! That would make Samus Sonics easiest matchup. It most likely isn't. It could feel like 60:40 because of the stupid fakeouts and your like 'what's the doing now? He's loading spin attack' Sonic can do like 5 things from a Spindash, but it's all mindgames from there, which isn't accounted in matchups. And yes, rushing in when you go in the air is a very good option to get close.
I'd go around 50:50 but it's not much of an advantage is eithers favor.
Maybe you need to step it up >:]

Crystanium · May 15, 2009

Sonic mains tend to run around, feint, grab, and roll. Once you got that down, it's a bit easier to deal with Sonic. I've brawled with quik2288, X, Boku, and Tenki. People say that Boku's Sonic is good, but I don't know. It was a bit laggy, but I wasn't feeling pressure like I did when I fought quik2288. quik2288 tends to just run away, though. X had some good feinting, better than Tenki's, but I could've beaten X. Our matches were close. The problem for me is that when Sonic just starts coming at me, I totally forget about using Homing Missiles and z-air. If I paid attention to this, instead of feeling like I am unaware of what's going on, I probably wouldn't have as much of a problem with Sonic.

Jim Morrison · May 15, 2009

Dryn said:
Sonic mains tend to run around, feint, grab, and roll. Once you got that down, it's a bit easier to deal with Sonic. I've brawled with quik2288, X, Boku, and Tenki. People say that Boku's Sonic is good, but I don't know. It was a bit laggy, but I wasn't feeling pressure like I did when I fought quik2288. quik2288 tends to just run away, though.

Well, Boku is a Sonic that always tries to run the clock out, I've seen vids of him. Never heard of Quik. X is the best of those Sonic IMO. Tenki is good too, but doesn't have enough expierence. Pressuring on Sonic is really hurt, because we indeed keep running all over <_<

X had some good feinting, better than Tenki's, but I could've beaten X. Our matches were close. The problem for me is that when Sonic just starts coming at me, I totally forget about using Homing Missiles and z-air.
If I paid attention to this, instead of feeling like I am unaware of what's going on, I probably wouldn't have as much of a problem with Sonic.

When Sonic is coming at you, you should use your fastest projectile (I don't know if it's Beam Shot of Missle). Sonic is supposed to stop his approach then, or take the hit. I don't know about Z-air. Is jumping and Z-airing fast enough?

Cherry64 · May 15, 2009

Er Xyro if I have time I'll look at some of the previous stuffz then try and write one.
I gotta go in search of a new job however right now but I'll try to get it done later before work.

Yes I need a second job

DelxDoom · May 15, 2009

Sonic in theory is the like 5th best character in the game because he runs so fast

/mostly joking

Sit on the ground and charge shots or shoot uncharged shots so that you still have the option of shielding and all the other Brawl broken ground game stuff
You won't get kills from charge shot this way (too much staling) but in theory it stops anything Sonic could do if you have good enough reflexes.

Remember to bomb safely to be cool and make the Sonic distracted. It might not work because bombs kinda suck (they can be ran through) but if you space yourself correctly (be on the other side of the stage or in the air or something i dunno) then you won't be punished and you can shoot something at Sonic

Rhyme · May 15, 2009

I'll say it once again. After that, I feel like Xyro will get annoyed. >.>

Xyro, if you don't want to compile everything then don't. Let people make it their responsibility to follow the discussion to their own liking. Write down the page number of the thread at the start and end of each month. Then update the front post letting people know what pages to look on. It only requires as much work as you would like to input to keep this thread going (assuming everyone here can have a bit of self-motivation).

Hive · May 16, 2009

sonic i think has the advantage in the matchup. he's just so well at closing in on her spam walls and staying in her face ^^ maybe 60-40 or 55-45 sonic i think... nothing huge though.
i find charge shot is really good at stopping his rolls. grounded as well, and if you have it fully charged and he starts charging his spin chances are its a free hit. missiles aren't as useful here imo

which is too bad bc they are my fave T.T.

DelxDoom · May 16, 2009

i'm pretty sure if you just watch out for bair/fsmash/dsmash and edgeguards you won't die too easily till the uthrow at 200+ while on the other hand Sonic might die at 150 from dtilt

Ignore.

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