Hostility
Smash Ace
****ing up a top tier matchup isn't small at all, it certainly matters a whole lot more than roy vs G&W.
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Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]
- Thread starter worldjem7
- Start date
Binx
Smash Master
Whats wrong with Purin and Koopa?
I personally think the announcer sounds better saying those names.
Yeah people don't play good enough players to realize how simple certain match ups can be between smart, experienced players.
I personally think the announcer sounds better saying those names.
Yeah people don't play good enough players to realize how simple certain match ups can be between smart, experienced players.
Cryptic C62
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2007
- Messages
- 61
Back on topic. Here are some Roy matches. These are not intended to prove or disprove anything that people have been saying. It just seems that since there is no clear consensus on some of Roy's matchups, watching real footage would be helpful for everyone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bde1Igr7tfE - Neo (Roy) 3 vs RockCrock (Fox) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9z17UNcArE - Sethlon (Roy) 0 vs SideEffect (Fox) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6GkaFAWaCY - Sethlon (Roy) 4 vs SideEffect (Fox) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJdIjMrk9GU - Sethlon (Roy) 1 vs SideEffect (Fox) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oMwoCYVa4o - LK (Roy) 3 vs Magus (Fox) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Oy80brS0Sk - Sethlon (Roy) 2 vs Kailo34CE (Falco) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twWzjQULBSc - Sethlon (Roy) 1 vs Tyle325 (Falco) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slXPqnm-nkM Sethlon (Roy) 2 vs Tyle325 (Falco) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dq244s9hYs - Neo (Roy) 2 vs Husband (Marth) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUn0pp3NitI - Neo (Roy) 0 vs Ken (Marth) 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAPa_1t3yX0 - Sethlon (Roy) 0 vs QDVS (Marth) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcDw5rHspcw - Sethlon (Roy) 1 vs QDVS (Marth) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af1I7EJS498 - Sethlon (Roy) 0 vs QDVS (Marth) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmsvkiTxjMU - Masashi (Roy) 0 vs Ken (Ganon) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3gLESuIDk4 - Neo (Roy) 0 vs RockCrock (Ganon) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptLrwHqXuOA - Neo (Roy) 1 vs Isai (Falcon) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NjqqxW3xM - Neo (Roy) 2 vs Isai (Falcon) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9tPy2__IC8 - Sethlon (Roy) 0 vs Caveman (Sheik) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gBVwuttB9Q - Sethlon (Roy) 1 vs Caveman (Sheik) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_pzo_mb1_c - Sethlon (Roy) 0 vs Caveman (Sheik) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f8FOCt1Nrw - Reed (Roy) 1 vs 1233 (Sheik) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j9oHlWNwSY - Neo (Roy) 1 vs Krazyjones (Peach) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bde1Igr7tfE - Neo (Roy) 3 vs RockCrock (Fox) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9z17UNcArE - Sethlon (Roy) 0 vs SideEffect (Fox) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6GkaFAWaCY - Sethlon (Roy) 4 vs SideEffect (Fox) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJdIjMrk9GU - Sethlon (Roy) 1 vs SideEffect (Fox) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oMwoCYVa4o - LK (Roy) 3 vs Magus (Fox) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Oy80brS0Sk - Sethlon (Roy) 2 vs Kailo34CE (Falco) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twWzjQULBSc - Sethlon (Roy) 1 vs Tyle325 (Falco) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slXPqnm-nkM Sethlon (Roy) 2 vs Tyle325 (Falco) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dq244s9hYs - Neo (Roy) 2 vs Husband (Marth) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUn0pp3NitI - Neo (Roy) 0 vs Ken (Marth) 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAPa_1t3yX0 - Sethlon (Roy) 0 vs QDVS (Marth) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcDw5rHspcw - Sethlon (Roy) 1 vs QDVS (Marth) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af1I7EJS498 - Sethlon (Roy) 0 vs QDVS (Marth) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmsvkiTxjMU - Masashi (Roy) 0 vs Ken (Ganon) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3gLESuIDk4 - Neo (Roy) 0 vs RockCrock (Ganon) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptLrwHqXuOA - Neo (Roy) 1 vs Isai (Falcon) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NjqqxW3xM - Neo (Roy) 2 vs Isai (Falcon) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9tPy2__IC8 - Sethlon (Roy) 0 vs Caveman (Sheik) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gBVwuttB9Q - Sethlon (Roy) 1 vs Caveman (Sheik) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_pzo_mb1_c - Sethlon (Roy) 0 vs Caveman (Sheik) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f8FOCt1Nrw - Reed (Roy) 1 vs 1233 (Sheik) 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j9oHlWNwSY - Neo (Roy) 1 vs Krazyjones (Peach) 0
Proverbs
Smash Lord
Definitely 100%. I always switch it to Japanese just so you get the better sound. But then people keep changing it back because they don't like having to memorize where things are <.<;;
unknown522
Some guy
I dunno. I saw oldschool neo vs rockcrock just now, and he linked up throw -> up air -> regrab -> [insert move here] -> F-smash several times. XD
idea
Smash Master
haha, of all the characters for this thread to focus on. roy. ah well, whatever =P
handsockpuppet
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2007
- Messages
- 1,438
Maybe because Roy is in the middle of Low but here he looks like bottom. Sure I'm a Roy main and I severely overrate Roy, but he should be higher nonetheless. But fine then. lets shift to Samus. What a wreck. Samus is awesome vs. low tier, but sucks against the top. this makes Samus much more even then she should be.
EDIT: I'm not going to post it here since it's humongous but here's the Samus official match-up thread http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185258
EDIT: I'm not going to post it here since it's humongous but here's the Samus official match-up thread http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185258
unknown522
Some guy
lol, coreygames.
Edit: eric, next update
Edit: eric, next update
Updated chart.
See first post.
Switched group difference cut-off from 100 to 95 for obvious reasons.
This is what it looks like with the split at 100.
See first post.
Switched group difference cut-off from 100 to 95 for obvious reasons.
This is what it looks like with the split at 100.
unknown522
Some guy
single digit matchups would probably make it easier
idea
Smash Master
i agree, single digit matchups seem easier for our feeble human brains to understand.
eric or whoever helped a lot, do you think you could give a brief summary of changes? and if you have a lot of free time =P the same thing for the first chart to the second, cause i didn't want to read through both and compare.
i see ganon is higher. probably a bunch of his low tier matchups were bumped up.
eric or whoever helped a lot, do you think you could give a brief summary of changes? and if you have a lot of free time =P the same thing for the first chart to the second, cause i didn't want to read through both and compare.
i see ganon is higher. probably a bunch of his low tier matchups were bumped up.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Jesus christ, Bowser/Ganon 90-10 matchup? **** no lol.. It's like a 60-40 for Ganon but ya.. not 90-10. Bowser can edgeguard Ganon with backairs all day first of all. Bowser has many outs of course and can space his own moves actually quite well. I have some experience against this matchup and this is how I feel. On small stages Bowser can camp the ledge really well without Ganon being able to do anything about it. Bowser/Ganon matchup isn't that bad.
These days the way the game is right now and from what I've seen Sheik ***** Cpt.Falcon more than Ganon. Ganon wins over Marth, trust me I just played PKM and Vwins marth for a good while and I've won most matches quite easily. Just need to L2 DI and space moves properly and you win. Cpt.Falcon definitely wins over Ganon but it can be tight. =P I'd say 45-55 instead of 40-60.
I love how people say Ganon is slow.. play me I'll show the speed =P.
These days the way the game is right now and from what I've seen Sheik ***** Cpt.Falcon more than Ganon. Ganon wins over Marth, trust me I just played PKM and Vwins marth for a good while and I've won most matches quite easily. Just need to L2 DI and space moves properly and you win. Cpt.Falcon definitely wins over Ganon but it can be tight. =P I'd say 45-55 instead of 40-60.
I love how people say Ganon is slow.. play me I'll show the speed =P.
Cosmo!
nerf zelda's dsmash
The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.
The Immortal Sir NZ
Smash Apprentice
why does Zelda have better matchups against the top tiers (really anybody) than M2?
I know she's got the fair and bair, but what else makes her good/better in these matchups?
I know she's got the fair and bair, but what else makes her good/better in these matchups?
Tomacawk
Smash Master
IMO the high and top tier is very accurate
Pi
Smash Hero
Cosmo ffs what is going on in your sig
Endless Nightmares
Smash Master
I don't know but he inspired me to make this sig lmao
The Immortal Sir NZ
Smash Apprentice
any body gonna answer my question?
unknown522
Some guy
good question. I'm not too sure but, M2 lacks priority, but zelda's sweetspot aerials don't lose to moves.
She also has CG on the spacies (not that it matters much), but it counts for something.
She also has better kill moves and edgeguard setups (M2 really has up-throw on most characters).
I really don't know. They both suck.
She also has CG on the spacies (not that it matters much), but it counts for something.
She also has better kill moves and edgeguard setups (M2 really has up-throw on most characters).
I really don't know. They both suck.
The Immortal Sir NZ
Smash Apprentice
Yeah I guess priority matters and stuff. But for edgeguard setups? I'm not really familiar with Zelda, but I know M2 can just knock or throw em of the edge and there's a good chance he takes a stock away. And as for kill moves, yeah Mewtwo only gets KOs by edgeguarding in these matchups. (His u-throw is somewhere around 160-170% with perfect DI on spacies)
But yeah, they both aren't exactly good characters. I don't even know why I'm continuing this discussion.
Skler
Smash Master
Link having a 30 vs Fox and Falco is silly. They should be somewhere in the area of 20. Captain Falcon could be a 30 if you're feeling lucky.
Young Link does better than Link vs Sheik and Fox, if only because they don't have easy to land 0-death garbage on him.
Link vs Samus is Link's advantage on most stages. I'd say he should get a 55 to represent his advantage on most neutrals (pretty much everything but YS and FoD let Link be a campy homo and win).
Link vs Pikachu should be even, Pika can gimp him but Link is just plain better on the stage.
Link vs Ness isn't an 80, it's probably a 60 or 70.
Link doesn't have an 80 against anyone when I think about it. Maybe vs Pichu or M2, but that's it.
Link vs G&W is pretty close to even imo. Reasons for this include the fair (which beats every one of Link's aerials and outranges most of his ground moves and can even cancel his projectiles), good kill moves out of throws and stupid hitboxes that have absolutely no reason to exist. The key shouldn't have a landing hitbox. Did I mention the fair shuts down Link's game almost completely? Link can pull off going even because G&W is easy to combo, light and has the worst shield ever, but his attacks are just flat out worse than G&W's (for the matchup).
Young Link does better than Link vs Sheik and Fox, if only because they don't have easy to land 0-death garbage on him.
Link vs Samus is Link's advantage on most stages. I'd say he should get a 55 to represent his advantage on most neutrals (pretty much everything but YS and FoD let Link be a campy homo and win).
Link vs Pikachu should be even, Pika can gimp him but Link is just plain better on the stage.
Link vs Ness isn't an 80, it's probably a 60 or 70.
Link doesn't have an 80 against anyone when I think about it. Maybe vs Pichu or M2, but that's it.
Link vs G&W is pretty close to even imo. Reasons for this include the fair (which beats every one of Link's aerials and outranges most of his ground moves and can even cancel his projectiles), good kill moves out of throws and stupid hitboxes that have absolutely no reason to exist. The key shouldn't have a landing hitbox. Did I mention the fair shuts down Link's game almost completely? Link can pull off going even because G&W is easy to combo, light and has the worst shield ever, but his attacks are just flat out worse than G&W's (for the matchup).
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
How is Falcon 35-65 with Sheik? I always thought Falcon did better against Sheik than against the other Top Tier chars.
Also, I'm pretty sure Sheik doesn't have THAT big of an advantage over Marth. That was a well-believed conception in the Ken days where Ken didn't do too well against KDJ, but then M2K came along and pretty much showed everybody that Marth doesn't do that badly against Sheik. Honestly, I think it would be around 55-45 for Sheik, then again I'm slightly biased, so if not, 60-40.
Also, I'm pretty sure Sheik doesn't have THAT big of an advantage over Marth. That was a well-believed conception in the Ken days where Ken didn't do too well against KDJ, but then M2K came along and pretty much showed everybody that Marth doesn't do that badly against Sheik. Honestly, I think it would be around 55-45 for Sheik, then again I'm slightly biased, so if not, 60-40.
DrewB008
Smash Lord
if anything 35-65 is better than falcon deserves against sheik
tdk_Samurai
Smash Ace
pikas matchups against marth and shiek are way worse than what is here, shiek has like a 0-death chaingrab if the shiek knows what they are doing, and marth outspaces pika by so much. ICs is also worse, but not sure what I would put that down as.
Pika also has kind of an advantage on puff, not sure how much, and ganon is not quite 7-3, prolly closer to the middle.
Pika also has kind of an advantage on puff, not sure how much, and ganon is not quite 7-3, prolly closer to the middle.
qft for the math/sheik stuff (but of course i got ***** when i said the exact same thing)
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
I could definitely be wrong with the Falcon vs. Sheik stuff, but I stand by strong about what I said of Sheik vs. Marth. And I know I'm not the only one to think this because I've actually spoken to many people who think that the Sheik vs. Marth matchup is nearly even, if not, even.
The Immortal Sir NZ
Smash Apprentice
an 80 on M2? why? Sure Link has the projectiles, but once Mewtwo gets inside, he can screw with Link pretty quickly.
Says Taj:
I'm not saying Taj's word is the the final verdict, but this is taken from his character discussion matchup, and he knows what he's talking about.
I think it should be more like a 60 or 70.
Tomacawk
Smash Master
I'll say it. Taj's word is the final verdict.
idea
Smash Master
what can mewtwo do about link's projectiles and nair? and spaced fair? does mewtwo's nair beat any of link's moves?
This out of context is LOL
Skler
Smash Master
If Link camps Link wins. M2 go above Link at all, he can only go air to air with Link if he's below (and even then, the dair has a tendency to trade hits). M2 has the same weaknesses as Peach and Samus do with none of the strengths.
Let's break it down.
Link's Pros:
- Projectiles
- KO moves
- Range
- Weight
- Priority
Mewtwo's Pros:
- Combos (not sure if this is true, I just know Link can't combo M2 at all after 50).
- Recovery (not that it matters since Link's best KO moves are vertical).
- Speed, at least in movement.
The problem is that M2's only pros are almost worthless. He won't be KOing Link for a long time, and he'll be living up to 100% tops, after that almost any of Link's attacks will KO him.
And no, if m2 gets inside Link is not screwed because he has to grab Link. Every single attack M2 has will be CCed into a dsmash. What can m2 do out of a grab on Link? techchase more grabs? Combo out off a missed tech? I don't play many M2s, but I have a feeling Taj doesn't play against many Links.
Maybe it's because I'm so used to such bad matchups, but Link vs M2 is a breeze when compared to Link vs G&W or Link vs Zelda. That's why I said if Link has an 80 vs anybody it's going to be m2 or pichu. Bowser is a close third.
I also forgot to mention Link vs Young Link is in YL's favor, probably 40-60.
Let's break it down.
Link's Pros:
- Projectiles
- KO moves
- Range
- Weight
- Priority
Mewtwo's Pros:
- Combos (not sure if this is true, I just know Link can't combo M2 at all after 50).
- Recovery (not that it matters since Link's best KO moves are vertical).
- Speed, at least in movement.
The problem is that M2's only pros are almost worthless. He won't be KOing Link for a long time, and he'll be living up to 100% tops, after that almost any of Link's attacks will KO him.
And no, if m2 gets inside Link is not screwed because he has to grab Link. Every single attack M2 has will be CCed into a dsmash. What can m2 do out of a grab on Link? techchase more grabs? Combo out off a missed tech? I don't play many M2s, but I have a feeling Taj doesn't play against many Links.
Maybe it's because I'm so used to such bad matchups, but Link vs M2 is a breeze when compared to Link vs G&W or Link vs Zelda. That's why I said if Link has an 80 vs anybody it's going to be m2 or pichu. Bowser is a close third.
I also forgot to mention Link vs Young Link is in YL's favor, probably 40-60.
handsockpuppet
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2007
- Messages
- 1,438
What really throws this match-up chart over is the lower tiers. You even admitted that it wasn't really based on tourney results. sure many of those characters don't have great people to represent them, but if so, take the second best. the last match-up chart (meaning the one from way back) worked with the tier list (I'm not just talking about 1v1. The placements are weird. Roy being below Bowser and M2?) made sense with the tier list (I mean characters that do well against a lot of other characters competitively should be higher up competitively, right? I gotta say, I trust the Melee final tier list then I trust this thing.
I've played against Germ's Link in the past and Trevyn's (Zarelid's) Link. I'd assume that it is reasonable to say they are among the West Coast's top Links. Germ could attest, even to this day that my M2 would do just fine against Link and projectiles are a minor issue.
Mewtwo will not be KOed by Link at 100% by anything other than down air, up B, and MAYBE the second hit of his Forward Smash. All of which are not necessarily guaranteed at that percentage. (Down air can most likely be 50/50ed around the lower 100s, but Mewtwo is too floaty at higher percentage) Recovery IS huge in this match-up because Link WILL have trouble landing KO moves when Mewtwo gets to higher percentage. Link's best KO moves are vertical, but Link as a character shines from his edgeguards against most characters.
Projectiles mean nothing, I have landing lag teleports into grabs when I call your boomerang, I can catch your bombs and use them against you anyway, I can just tilt away the boomerang, shadow ball trades with the boomerang, Fully charged shadow ball beats the boomerang and depending on the distance, will force you into your shield. When you have a bomb out, you have less options now, so that means I can invade your space with more confidence since you can't grab/smash/jab/tilt until you drop it. Link just doesn't have the mobile projectile game that Young Link does.
Mewtwo has guaranteed KOs from his up throw, and good edgeguards from back throw and back airs. Mewtwo can deny many of Link's recovery attempts. Once Mewtwo is inside, CC down smash is not a major concern since it can be grab/down tilt/SH neutral air (Beats CCs and punishes CCs with forward air), DJC neutral air (Combos into grab at low percentage even with CC), and spaced down tilts are still safe against crouch cancel down smash.
Your perceptions of Mewtwo are skewed because of your lack of experience playing high level Mewtwos. It's not an insult, it's just reality. There aren't really enough Mewtwos at a higher level, let alone much footage of me playing any Link players for you to have any reason to think otherwise. I DO have Link experience, I have success against Link players, it is not in Mewtwo's favor, but it is certainly not as bad as the Marth/Fox/Sheik match-ups.
60/40 in Link's favor is reasonable. Mewtwo can get shut out from a strong Link ground game, but Mewtwo DOES gain momentum when he lands that neutral air, gets that grab and tech chases, teleport cross ups, down tilt pressure at mid to high percent (combos to Forward air which KOs about as well as up throw or up air, which sets up for edgeguards), fully charged shadow ball pressure, decent edge guards, difficult to close on (KO), and Grab KO pressure. Mewtwo is a character that can run, and Link will have a tougher time pinning/cornering, unlike Peach and Samus, which is the difference.
The Immortal Sir NZ
Smash Apprentice
What do you mean? I'm just saying that Link has projectiles to keep M2 out of M2's comfort zone, but there are ways around it, and once M2 invades Link's little "bubble" and gets a d-tilt, nair, or throw he gets combo'd.
....>_>
<_<
-.-
totally missed the joke in what you said
<_<
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totally missed the joke in what you said
Skler
Smash Master
Strong uairs can KO floaty characters around 100%. I don't know exactly how light m2 (or any character) is, but if Peach gets KOed at 100 from uairs I imagine m2 would too. Link's edgeguarding isn't anything special unless you're Sheik.
The teleport trick is silly but it isn't all that great. Timing it to get around a boomerang is risky since a close rang sets up for a dair (or at the very least a uair). If Link ever lets M2 charge a shadowball they aren't throwing enough crap. The moment Link pulls a bomb he's in control until that bomb is gone. Dropping a bomb takes 0 frames, and getting hit by a bomb puts M2 above Link, which is a terrible place to be. The bomb is a huge advantage for Link against floaties.
Link has a solid mobile projectile game. It isn't as great as Young Link's, but it's good enough to straight up beat Samus (as far as projectiles are concerned), screw up the ICs and annoy Peach. If it comes down to pure shadow ball spam Link can throw boomerangs from a standing position faster than m2 can shoot shadow balls.
Guaranteed KOs from a very specific move at about 130 isn't that good. Aside from all that, the only way you're getting into Link's space is straight out of a WD or teleport, and both of those let Link at least jab before you can reach him. I just can't see M2 getting enough solid approaches to win a match.
It isn't as bad as Marth/Fox/Sheik, I never said it was. For this chart, based on all the other matchups I've seen on it, I think if Link should have an 80 it would be against Mewtwo or Pichu. I said it's one of Link's best matchups, at least one of his top two. I haven't played any specific high level M2 mains (aka you), but I've played high level players who were using M2.
Out of curiosity, how'd you do against the Germ and Trevyn, and were the matches in tournaments/MMs? Those would probably be the only matches between high level Links and high level Mewtwos . . . ever. I personally wouldn't "count" friendlies for that matchup because nobody wants to be a campy ***** in friendlies, and campy *****ery is what would give Link his advantage.
As an example, Fox vs low tiers in general can be won ridiculously easily by Fox if he plays like a campy mean person. If they do something else, it at least gives the other player a chance to hit them.
The thing is Link doesn't need to really chase Mewtwo, he can just stand wherever he wants and throw things. There's no need to KO the opponent four times. Link can play the entire game by keeping close enough to stop shadow ball charges and throwing out quick, high priority (compared to M2) attacks whenever M2 gets close. WDing into a shield might be a bit of a problem, but Link's grab and projectiles are a pretty effective way of forcing people to calm down with the WDs.
I'd say the matchup is a 70 in Link's favor, if only because they put so many other characters at/around a 60 for Link. Mewtwo is much easier to play against than a G&W.
It could be that I've never played a m2 who could consistently get through Link's defensive wall of projectiles and pokes, but it could also be that you've never played a Link who was determined to camp and have no fun at all*.
*Link is seriously not fun to play "optimally" against certain characters where he must camp/run away while pulling bombs on platforms, which is why I asked if the Germ/Trevyn matches were in tournaments or MMs. Nobody wants to play like that in a friendly, ever.
There is no risk in using a teleport to cross up a boomerang. I don't understand your point here. There is absolutely no risk of getting hit with a short ranged boomerang if I'm behind him as he is throwing it. Bomb dropping does take 0 frames, but it requires you to be in the air, I didn't say you couldn't aerial, I said you couldn't use your ground game in the form of grabs/tilts/smashes unless you got rid of it. You're getting it twisted, I'm not necessarily saying that it's hindering to pull bombs and throw them, it's just that the options change and open instantly.
It is terrible for Mewtwo to be above Link, but Mewtwo has the second best horizontal air mobility in the game, coupled with his teleport to escape most up air situations making it less guaranteed to land unless it is a platform tech chase or non-lethal grab combo.
I don't see link out spamming shadow balls with nothing but boomerang unless it was at a specific close to medium range where the trade would return Link's boomerang faster. At a distance, Link has to wait for the boomerang to return before he can throw another one. Link can nullify M2's non charged shadow balls just as easily with his jabs. The projectile game just isn't what I'm worried about. It's the ground game mix ups that are often used in conjunction with Link's projectile game.
I didn't mean to imply that it was "that good" it was just guaranteed. Both WD and teleport can encroach into Links space whether or not there are jabs. The jabs CAN keep Mewtwo out from WDs, but then Mewtwo WDs out of shield even closer, teleports inside of you and shields the jabs, then there are all kinds of mix ups inside the bubble. All the mix ups are of course theory smash.
As the case is with any match-up in a particular position, the options can be nullified and countered, but the point is that the options and mix ups EXIST and Mewtwo can win that kind of exchange. Link can spit a mean keep out game with projectiles, crouch cancels, jabs, and SHFFL aerials, but Mewtwo's approaches are quick and eventually that kind of defense can be broken down.
I'm curious as to what high level players were using M2. Forward and Wobbles play a mean Link, but their Mewtwos don't quite cut it, even with their understanding of the game. Most pros have an everything, but Mewtwo and in some cases Yoshi are those exceptions. It takes a seemingly unique perspective to actually play Mewtwo well enough to beat other high level players playing seemingly better characters. Because I haven't seen anyone else use Mewtwo similarly to me and I've seen people try to imitate me, ultimately it just ends up being their own style with substantially less efficiency. They try to play Mewtwo like Sheik, they try to play Mewtwo like Fox, like Marth, but it just doesn't work that way. Mewtwo has to react, Mewtwo has to predict and respond on a whole different level than those characters with auto combos and guaranteed KOs from their absurdly strong grab/SHFFL games.
Don't get it twisted, I know Link has his problems and needs to do those things too, but you have to understand that Mewtwo's cards are COMPLETELY different than EVERY other character. You can't go from playing exclusive Sheik/Fox/Marth and play Mewtwo as well as even a character like Bowser. I hope that makes sense, if not then I guess I'll leave it at that.
I've played them both in tournament and friendlies. I beat them both, though I did lose a game to Germ at OC2 in tournament. At the very least, Germ can probably testify that my Mewtwo performed just fine against his Link and avoiding projectiles even if it were that long ago since I've played him. He has seen my M2 lately at Mango Juice, despite the rust, I'm also confident he knows what I'm talking about. I've always done just fine against Trevyn's Link since he went to several AZ tournaments though the years.
I've played against campy whores, even if it were a friendly/tournament. I have the experience, I have the knowledge base, and I have the skill to perform the necessary execution.
Indeed he does. The problem is the skill of the person executing such a strategy vs. the skill of the person. Forward does it pretty **** well against my Mewtwo, but I can still compete against a strong strategy like that, and sometimes even win. He is easily a better player than me, Wobbles can do it as well, but Mewtwo isn't so terrible of a character that he can't get around a campy play style. He's definitely not Kirby.
Link can stand and throw things, while Mewtwo swats them and charges his shadow ball and throws things back. No one has to do anything, but that doesn't lead us anywhere. Link's grab is dangerous, but avoidable. The main reason it lands is because people are worried about those quick and high priority attacks. The projectile can be neutralized while Mewtwo gets better position, that's all there is to it. Whether Mewtwo wins the exchange isn't the problem. Reading the ground game is the toughest part of the match for M2, and if M2 can do that then he will do just fine. If not, then Link is in control. You're right, those are effective ways to force people to calm down with heavy WDs, but Mewtwo's Wavedash isn't best utilized as a dance since it is not as quick as Luigi's or ICs, it's better simply as a way to close distance and create options.
I can respect that. I'd still say that Mewtwo does better in this match-up than against Samus. I would personally say a 60, but a 65 or 70 is still reasonable. The problem is that Mewtwo has low margin for error where other characters probably have simpler solutions to certain problems. I would just argue that despite the difficulty of solving the problems, if it is completely viable it should hold up in a high level match. In kind of the same way Fox's flatland infinite and tech skill are taken into consideration on the tier list and in certain match-ups even though if they mess up and are punished it could be death. (Peach's Down Smash)
I'd say it is the former. I have plenty of experience against many kinds of players friendlies, MMs, tournaments, and seriouslies.
It REALLY is his ground game that would be the problem. It really is that you haven't seen a Mewtwo seal Link's projectile game. I'd have to post a video of me beating a Link attempting to play to your specifications to prove to you otherwise. Then, just like everything about Mewtwo, player skill will be the reason why it works. Honestly, I don't know what else to tell you, Mewtwo is probably the easiest character in the game to play against until you've played someone with skills similar to my own.
I do respect your opinion, Mewtwo is a big target and doesn't have anything really intimidating at low percentage. That's just the way it is, Mewtwo is a character that is forced and designed more than any other character to beat the **** out of everyone until they die from something off the top. Mewtwo has no genuine gimps, light weight, and garbage priority. I don't think I can convince you to accept my 60/40 unless you played me, but this is the reason why I'm usually not very vocal about Mewtwo. Mewtwo on paper really is a terrible character, but in my hands... he should be low tier and better than Zelda.
DrewB008
Smash Lord
taj your logic seems inconsistent to me
youre saying that youre good enough to land enough grabs/hits with mewtwo to kill people and have success, and you kill people better with mewtwo than any zelda does
but thats clearly you and not the character; if someone landed as many fairs with zelda as you did grabs with mewtwo she would get more kills. just because youve chosen to get good enough with mewtwo to win doesnt make mewtwo better
it could be that we have different opinions on what defines tiers/matchups, if you like to use current tournament play or w/e as the standard then you would be right because your mewtwo exists with a lack of other significant low tiers. i like to think of it more theoretically and generally though, so thats why i dont think your individual skill with mewtwo is basis for moving mewtwo up on the list, regardless of how good you are with him
youre saying that youre good enough to land enough grabs/hits with mewtwo to kill people and have success, and you kill people better with mewtwo than any zelda does
but thats clearly you and not the character; if someone landed as many fairs with zelda as you did grabs with mewtwo she would get more kills. just because youve chosen to get good enough with mewtwo to win doesnt make mewtwo better
it could be that we have different opinions on what defines tiers/matchups, if you like to use current tournament play or w/e as the standard then you would be right because your mewtwo exists with a lack of other significant low tiers. i like to think of it more theoretically and generally though, so thats why i dont think your individual skill with mewtwo is basis for moving mewtwo up on the list, regardless of how good you are with him