Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[idea]

he has a point. maybe we should do less accurate ratings.

that might make the low tier matchups more agreeable, too.

 

[Stratford]

Hahaha there is no Sheik counter.

 

[unknown522]

maybe we should change the numbers to single digits (out of 10).

It might help with those who are trying to act smart.

also, fox (and maybe falco) beat sheik. Not by enough to matter though. When matchups get worse than 7-3, that's when it starts to become undo-able

 

[exarch]

you must be playing some pretty awful G&W players then if you can win playing poorly.

IMO, the G&W - Roy mathcup is in G&W's favor.
Roy's Fsmash (pretty much his only kill move) is virtually a standalone attack vs G&w.
Sure, its strong and can kill him because he's light, but roy isnt going to combo into the attack like he can vs fastfallers. Which means its goignt o become pretty obvious when you want to/can go for the fsmash kill which really helps g-dubs avoid it entirely.

furthermore, g-dubs DOES combo roy, dtilt/uptilt, fair, nair, **** roy. and getting him off the stage into a edgeguard opportunity is all it takes to lose the stock.

edgeguarding is in g-dubs favor imo, once roy is off the stage, all he has to do is run off, and hit him with one of his disjointed fair/nair hitboxes, and, roy being the worst recovery in the game cant defend himself from this AT ALL.

on the other hand, roy's got two realistic edgeguards vs g-dubs, he can either counter or fsmash, and barring yoshi's story, both of those can be evaded with a sweetpotted b-up.

so yea, thats how i see the matchup, if all you have to do is throw out a couple fsmashs to beat your opponent, then frankly, you arent playing anyone good.

I don't need to justify the people I'm playing, but I've been around enough to know when people are bad and when they are good. Although the GW's I'm playing might not be world class (like Chu's or Dire's), they certainly aren't bad.

Gdubs has mostly 2 hit combos on Roy: dtilt->aerial, which do not do enough damage or knockback to really threaten Roy, until they multiple times each stock.

Roy combos midweights/floaties well enough with platforms, and he doesn't need very long ones against G&W. Plus there is nothing which states you must combo into a kill move to hit with it, just because high tiers can do it doesn't mean it's a necessity. GW's tech is awful, as previously mentioned, and therefore is quite easy to fsmash; a tech can be forced from a throw, and GW is pretty easy to grab. Fsmashing GW is significantly easier than fsmashing most of the cast, which gives a significant advantage to Roy he's not used to having.

Roy's recovery is actually pretty decent, even though it's very short. A well timed overb stops most approaches and the upb's priority surprises literally everyone I play; it has much better priority than Marth's. If Roy recovers low he should have little to no trouble with a GW jumping off the stage at him.

As for edgeguarding GW, he can edgehog, get up (ledgehop) and fsmash him. With the right timing it can be done even with the small lag GW has at the end of his upb. If GW is going to go for the edge anyways, a ledgehog kills him. Either way, edgeguarding is not anywhere near impossible and decidedly not nullified by sweetspotting.

Very basically, Roy can zone GW relatively well, and when the character is entirely a disjointed moveset with terrible defense he loses pretty badly to someone who has an equal amount of priority but who lives longer and has a better defense.

------------------------------

Also, @ the update: Roy definitely does better against Fox than any of the top tiers.
And the Roy vs CF and Ganon matches are still way off. Unless Ganon's going to be CGing Roy every stock 0-death, then that one matchup might be closer to correct.

And Samus vs Kirby is one of the easiest matchups in the game. Samus exacerbates kirby's inability to kill, and WD back->whatever counters every approach kirby has. Add to that dangerous projectiles and not relying on gimps or combos or edgeguarding (none of which kirby is extremely susceptible to,) and you've got one of the few 10-0/100-0 matches in the game. Samus RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPES Kirby, allllll day.

 

[pockyD]

one of the first things i learned in middle school science was the difference between 'accuracy' and 'precision'

 

[rehab]

The best matchup chart I've ever seen had 3 super pros of each character giving their biased but educated opinions of each matchup their character has. These didn't have to correspond with players having opposing character's view of it exactly so people don't need to quibble with their explanations of the matchups as much as a defined list, gave a relatively fair way of sharing opinions on the matches and prompted people interested in discrepancies in the chart to look up what it is about the match that's weird and might cause for varied opinions on the match.

just throwing that out there

radaradaInevergetrepliedtopradarada

 

[unknown522]

Roy's recovery is actually pretty decent, even though it's very short. A well timed overb stops most approaches and the upb's priority surprises literally everyone I play; it has much better priority than Marth's. If Roy recovers low he should have little to no trouble with a GW jumping off the stage at him.

seeing roy attempt to recover makes me laugh every time. His jump is hilarious.

 

[JPOBS]

I don't need to justify the people I'm playing, but I've been around enough to know when people are bad and when they are good. Although the GW's I'm playing might not be world class (like Chu's or Dire's), they certainly aren't bad.

Gdubs has mostly 2 hit combos on Roy: dtilt->aerial, which do not do enough damage or knockback to really threaten Roy, until they multiple times each stock.

Roy combos midweights/floaties well enough with platforms, and he doesn't need very long ones against G&W. Plus there is nothing which states you must combo into a kill move to hit with it, just because high tiers can do it doesn't mean it's a necessity. GW's tech is awful, as previously mentioned, and therefore is quite easy to fsmash; a tech can be forced from a throw, and GW is pretty easy to grab. Fsmashing GW is significantly easier than fsmashing most of the cast, which gives a significant advantage to Roy he's not used to having.

Roy's recovery is actually pretty decent, even though it's very short. A well timed overb stops most approaches and the upb's priority surprises literally everyone I play; it has much better priority than Marth's. If Roy recovers low he should have little to no trouble with a GW jumping off the stage at him.

As for edgeguarding GW, he can edgehog, get up (ledgehop) and fsmash him. With the right timing it can be done even with the small lag GW has at the end of his upb. If GW is going to go for the edge anyways, a ledgehog kills him. Either way, edgeguarding is not anywhere near impossible and decidedly not nullified by sweetspotting.

Very basically, Roy can zone GW relatively well, and when the character is entirely a disjointed moveset with terrible defense he loses pretty badly to someone who has an equal amount of priority but who lives longer and has a better defense.

.

gaw doeshave "mostly" two hit combos simply because his attacks have a lot of knockback, but any grab leads to a down throw-> uptilts->uptilt-> fair or other such variations with longer combos.

Roy's recovery isnt "pretty decent", its actually considered the worst in the game bar none. roy would have to be crazy to recover low against gaw because a simple dtilt would ruin him. b-up may surprise people, but disjointed hitboxs of dtilt > roys b-up surprise.
Also, no, his Bover wotn save him from gaw because again, gaw has NO problems jumping WAY the **** out there to hit you with one of his disjointed aerials to secure the kill then recover with his superb vertical b-up.

again, like i said, Roy may "live longer" but that amounts to nothing when he's so easily disrupted during his recovery and, true, roy does have ways of gettign of his fsmash but again, its still a stand alone attack, Gaw can combo into his kill moves vs roy.

 

[Darkman.exe213]

So, what's the reason the Street Fighter community can have an accepted(?) matchup chart, but we can't?

Directed towards the people against the chart. ^_^

Arcade machines actually keep track of records, and much of the matchup chart takes arcade machine records into consideration, whereas the Smash community forms a machup list based solely on personal experience.(and when the charts are based off arcade records, equal skill level cannot be assumed; I doubt people of equal skill level usually play as Dan >_>)

I'm still very much in disagreement with some of the low tier matchups, though. Pichu has solid combos against fastfallers, but the updated matchup still says that Pichu vs Fox is near unwinnable.

 

[unknown522]

gaw doeshave "mostly" two hit combos simply because his attacks have a lot of knockback, but any grab leads to a down throw-> uptilts->uptilt-> fair or other such variations with longer combos.

Roy's recovery isnt "pretty decent", its actually considered the worst in the game bar none. roy would have to be crazy to recover low against gaw because a simple dtilt would ruin him. b-up may surprise people, but disjointed hitboxs of dtilt > roys b-up surprise.
Also, no, his Bover wotn save him from gaw because again, gaw has NO problems jumping WAY the **** out there to hit you with one of his disjointed aerials to secure the kill then recover with his superb vertical b-up.

again, like i said, Roy may "live longer" but that amounts to nothing when he's so easily disrupted during his recovery and, true, roy does have ways of gettign of his fsmash but again, its still a stand alone attack, Gaw can combo into his kill moves vs roy.

- it's all about down throw -> 9/6 =P
- also having the ability to edgeguard roy with jump off -> neutral-B is pretty sad/funny

I'm still very much in disagreement with some of the low tier matchups, though. Pichu has solid combos against fastfallers, but the updated matchup still says that Pichu vs Fox is near unwinnable.

fox and falco camp pichu too hard, and kill him quickly. Do you actually think that players at equal skill will actually win with pichu vs fox/falco?

also, even with a combo, pichu does about 15 damage off of a 4-hit combo. Fox/falco do almost twice as much damage off of 2 hits. Tech chase is also brutal because pichu has no tech roll.

 

[idea]

if this helps give a better understanding, let's imagine kdj's fox vs. kdj's pichu. pichu can sort of do stuff if he gets a hit in. he will scarcely do this. there will be legs and blue hexagons in the way.

i guess if fox is offstage pichu can go through firefox with nair? ...i hope?

 

[unknown522]

yeah, take the ledge an nair with invincibility. Other wise it might trade at best.

 

[JPOBS]

after looking at the new matchup thread, i disagree with a lot of gaw's matchups, mostly vs spacies, falcon and jiggs, but i ownt even try to argue them but he's still disadvantaged in the matchups so it doesnt even matter.

the only verdict, is to switch to main G-dubs and wreck people with him. yup, confirmed. see you at genesis.

 

[Europhoria]

People think that because a low tier can take a stock or two it means that the low tier stands a chance. G/W and Roy can take a couple stocks off the spacies for example but... Getting 2 stocks 100 times in a row is still losing 100 times in a row.

 

[Hostility]

Falco does not beat fox 60-40, what were you thinking?

 

[idea]

yeah, for a change, let's discuss that one (two highly played characters). i keep hearing different opinions on fox vs. falco. i don't play either of them but it feels a little easier for falco to me.

 

[Inaphyt]

Disagree with marth having any sort of negative matchup, should be at least most even, there is no matchup a marth main is afraid of least of all shiekh? why marth is alot more floaty than many characters harder for shiekh to combo and shiekhs approaching options against a marth? don't joke marth is the true number one of the list.

 

[idea]

=( now we're gonna have 3 pages of people getting trolled.

 

[Hazygoose]

falco has the best 'on-stage' game they say...or he better, because his off-stage game is lol.
there are certain times he can utilize it against fox, and certain times that he definitely can not. i'm not an expert on the matchup, or even very experienced, so i don't want to throw out estimations or even say who should win most of the time.

i just know that while some falco players always say he needs platforms to combo, i don't really see it. in the matchup vs fox, i mean. obviously he can get chaingrabbed like mad on FD, but i've seen a lot of good "FD falco"s as they call them, the typical dair shine...etc...FSMASH! combo is an equalizer to chaingrab and would falco's lazer be better than fox's approaching nair? with that it seems like a falco playing defensively can take a slight advantage on FD. just play like vs ICs and don't get grabbed XD

and then the other side to that is platforms helping fox...he's fast enough to tech chase on them, so i don't see why using them to combo gives falco such a huge advantage. fox can combo on them...and techchase/punish on/through them o.0

hopefully some good spacies players can come in and tell me what i'm wrong or right about. i'm only mentioning this info because i'm curious ^.^

 

[KevinM]

I think Falco/Fox is one of the few even match-ups in the game.

Coming from playing high level players on both sides of the coin.

*shrugs*

 

[JPOBS]

yea i agree that falco/fox is one of if not thee most even matchup in the game and isnt very stage dependant. IMO, the winner will always go to whoever happened to be more on his game/made less mistakes.

falco doesnt "need" platforms to combo but in the event its a platform stage i.e. not named FD, then thats just as well. Fox can platform techchase falco but really its not the same imo, falco has better platform combo'ing ability overall.
As far as straight up combo'ing goes, imo falco has more reliable combos that can turn pretty nasty, but fox also has his share of chainthrows, thunders combos, and techchasing falco as fox is really easy because of his speed so while his combos arent as "garunteed" as falco's may be once you land move X, they arent particularly difficult to extend and be jsut as deadly.

Lasers in this matchup arent as brutal to fox as most other chars, he's so quick and nimble that he easily maneuvers through/around lasers and they cant really lock him down, even on FD. not to say they arent useful for falco but they arent gamebreaking.

fox gimps falco as good as anyone does but thats not saying much, lol falcos recovery. edgeguarding though i think belongs to fox, not just for the gimps, but his general bair, edgehog, nair shenanigans.
falco edgeguards fox almost the same way as fox edgeguads him, but ideally you want the fox to recover low and force him to do more predictable b-ups that can be dmashed or dair'd.

meh, i know i havent said anything new but lets face it, this matchup is so common that there not really much else to says except "the obvious"
if i had to rate it i'd call it even 50/50 regardless of stage

 

[Dark Sonic]

Roy's recovery isnt "pretty decent", its actually considered the worst in the game bar none.

Kirby says hi.

roy would have to be crazy to recover low against gaw because a simple dtilt would ruin him.

Or the Roy could just sweetspot <.<

b-up may surprise people, but disjointed hitboxs of dtilt > roys b-up surprise.

Not unless the Roy is bad <.<

Also, no, his Bover wotn save him from gaw because again, gaw has NO problems jumping WAY the **** out there to hit you with one of his disjointed aerials to secure the kill then recover with his superb vertical b-up.

Side B isn't to hit the G&W. It's to fast fall and then STOP fast falling with a very nice momentum stalling move (...or to hit the G&W, lol).

again, like i said, Roy may "live longer" but that amounts to nothing when he's so easily disrupted during his recovery and, true, roy does have ways of gettign of his fsmash but again, its still a stand alone attack, Gaw can combo into his kill moves vs roy.

Roy's recovery is not as easy to edgeguard as you make it out to be. "A simple dtilt would ruin him" is far from true, especially against any player that knows how to ledge tech (even then, they should still be sweetspotting anyway). And G&W's options from a ledge hop (since you'd have to edgehog to edgeguard a smart Roy anyway) aren't exactly stellar, so your edgeguard ends with on hit knocking them towards the stage.

And F-smash being a stand alone attack does not mean he won't land it. It outranges quite a few of your attacks (even without tipping), and once again, G&W's tech is absolutely terrible.

 

[MarkLoo]

kirby's recovery is worse than roy's?

 

[JPOBS]

Roy's recovery is not as easy to edgeguard as you make it out to be. "A simple dtilt would ruin him" is far from true, especially against any player that knows how to ledge tech (even then, they should still be sweetspotting anyway). And G&W's options from a ledge hop (since you'd have to edgehog to edgeguard a smart Roy anyway) aren't exactly stellar, so your edgeguard ends with on hit knocking them towards the stage.

And F-smash being a stand alone attack does not mean he won't land it. It outranges quite a few of your attacks (even without tipping), and once again, G&W's tech is absolutely terrible.

See thats the thing, in order for roy to sweetspot, he has to fall/recover low and imo vs gaw thats not a very good choice seeing as gaw has amazing vertical recovery, im not afraid to drop down there and hit you with, well....pretty much anything that will kill you and leave me able to easily recover.

which means roys recovery boils down too one of two things, you're either going to drop low and try to sweetspot , and i just follow you down and kill you, or you try to pull a fast one and "surprise" me by Bup-ing early in which case i dtilt you out of it.
gaw's edgeguarding doesnt revovle around edgehogs, he's very proactive edgeguarder.

 

[idea]

if roy's up-b has as high priority as whoever said, though, then couldn't the roy see G&W coming down after him and up-b through whatever aerial? although G&W's fair and nair have pretty good priority too...

 

[MexicanBJ]

ok yea marth sheik is definitely not 35-65 lol, at worst 40-60 but i think it's actually closer to 45-55

 

[otg]

Where is this Marth Sheik is almost even bull****. marth gets his *** stomped on by Sheik.

 

[MexicanBJ]

yea....not really

you might be able to convince me of 40-60 but anything more, no.

 

[JPOBS]

if roy's up-b has as high priority as whoever said, though, then couldn't the roy see G&W coming down after him and up-b through whatever aerial? although G&W's fair and nair have pretty good priority too...

at what cost though? roy's B-up doesnt have much range which means he has to do it in range enough to grab the ledge after hitting gaw

which is my point about gaw, he's not an on stage edgeuarder like most of the cast, he's liable to chase you out off screen and hit you before you get a chance to utilise any move that would be helpful. so u're either gonna b-up early, hit me, die and gaw recovers, or i just hit you and you die lul. roy is hilarious when attempting to recover honestly.

 

[Kyu Puff]

ICs vs CF is at least 60-40.

 

[RomeDogg]

I think this should be stickied if no one has made that point yet.

 

[idea]

i don't think anyone has and that would be a good way to attract more experienced opinions.

 

[handsockpuppet]

Before it's stickied it should at least be an eight correct.

Guys, let's not argue about small things, like Fox vs. Falco being 5% different or whatnot. there's time for that later, but right now we should focus on the humongous flaws in here. Firstly, Roy vs. Fox and Falco is not 90% to 10%. It's true they can land combos on Roy, but Roy has a CG on them, can juggle easily, can avoid many threats by CCing, and completely destroys their recovery (counter owns firefox/bird, flare blade hits firefox/bird at the tip and has downward range, Dsmash cancel the illusion on first hit and attacks second, and Roy has a greater than usual glitch time on the ledghog). I like the last matchup's stance, with vs. Fox 60% to 40% and vs. Falco 30% to 70%.

and do you realize what you're saying when you give Roy a 0% against Sheik? sure it's bad, but 100% means if the players are about the same skill level, there's absolutely no way the Roy will win. Honestly, just stand in the middle of the stage and don't fall into Sheiks grab too often, and Roy can win. Not even sheik can counter Roy's Crouch Cancel > Dtilt. I'd say 90% to 10% at least.

Samus? just go close and put pressure on her. She won't shieldgrab because if she does she'll get punished heavily. (and BTW samus sucks against all the high tier). Tough, but not 95% to 5%.

Captain Falcon is comboed easily and Roy dominates him on the ground. definitely not 90% to 10%. 70% to 30% at most.

Luigi is a solid Roy counter, so that's more than 70% 30%. prob somewhere around 80% to 20%.

Roy has a solid advantage over G&W, Zelda, and Koopa (which guys is what they call Bowser in the Japanese version).

Roy is about 80% over Pichu and Kirby. there's a big drop with those two, they both suck horribly (especially Kirby), so everybody pretty much owns them.

I'll post more later, just thought I'd start with Roy since I know the most about him.

 

[Europhoria]

Gah

I'll just direct you to what I said earlier.

"People think that because a low tier can take a stock or two it means that the low tier stands a chance. G/W and Roy can take a couple stocks off the spacies for example but... Getting 2 stocked 100 times in a row is still losing 100 times in a row."

While Roy can get a CC grab to a chain grab and maybe a kill against the spacies, or a CC to d-tilt to like... 1 more move against Sheik may. He still has to deal with Fox/Falco hitting him for like 60+ damage every time they get close. Against Sheik it's even worse.

More importantly then that, Roy has to be able to get inside these characters. If Fox/Falco/Sheik run away and camp like hell with lasers/dash dance/spaced aerials/needles/what have you... Roy is very vulnerable approaching into that (understatement) because of his highly predictable options while approaching.
So while Roy struggles to get inside, he gets dispatched in a few hits by the other person. If Roy chooses not to approach and be vulnerable... he gets camped to like 140% and then gets back aired. He'll get inside Fox eventually and maybe get a couple kills but >_> he won't be killing nearly as fast as he'll be dying.

Against Samus... gah X.X That's the worst match up ever. Roy can do nothing but crumble and die to her CC game. Sheik might be worse >_> CC to d-tilt ---> grab is probably better lol

 

[Spife]

^ good read

I just want to weigh in with my pro-link attitude.
Link is the best character in the game and i can beat lvl 9's and such (gamefaqs (more like gay***s mirite?!?!?!) thinks they're impossabowl lolololo) and all my friends so link is clearly the best character in the game.

 

[Hazygoose]

****, i can't argue with that

 

[DtJ Jungle]

That is always the greatest logic

"you guys ness has to be the best cuz i beat all my friends with him!"

 

[Europhoria]

When people look at this chart they might be thinking of like... friendlies with randoms as a judge. Think serious tournament level match where Fox/Marth or whatever character is winning is playing SUPER GAY. This means camping hard. This is why Yoshi/Kirby/Pichu/etc. have so many 10-0s.

What can YOUR magical Yoshi do if Sheik camps platforms with needles/b-air.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Eggs that explode witha blast radius the size of the stage

whatcha gonan do son

 

[idea]

grab the edge.