Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

Yeah, I don't like it when pros at certain characters tend to overrate their characters. Kage does it a lot with Ganon, and Taj seems to do it with Mewtwo a lot. It's almost as if they can't admit the weaknesses of their character and not themselves...there are other people that play those characters and suffer from the weaknesses more than people like you do, Taj. Plus, we can't formulate theory from the advice from one person. One person might have a lot of the experience we need for our information, but people have different opinions and different information. There are others (though very few) that can play decently with Mewtwo / know a lot about Mewtwo too.

well thats not exactly what i meant either

seeing as taj is head and shoulders above every other mewtwo, it doesnt really matter what weaknesses other people suffer from. we should assume, when quantifying matchups, that both players are playing the matchup and their characters well. if most people suffer from weaknesses that taj does not, it can be assumed that they are not playing mewtwo as well as current play allows

what i posted addressed more specifically what taj said about mewtwo being terrible on paper, but in his hands better than zelda. i also might just be ignorant about mewtwo, so i'd like input from taj on this one, but i think his own ability to land more grabs and hits than his opponent needs to be compared to a theoretical ability of another character to land a comparable amount of hits and grabs. assuming a zelda was good enough to predict their opponent often enough and effectively edgeguard as well as her character reasonably allows, would mewtwo still be able to out-ko her? thats the point i was trying to make; not so much that pros need to consider worse players when they discuss matchups, but rather that the rest of us should only consider top play

People often mistake their personal playing weaknesses to that of their character's. What I'm saying is, what Taj finds difficult and simple to do with Mewtwo might be different than what the average Mewtwo experiences. I might have trouble returning to the stage with a specific character, but I might find it easy to combo into, say, a grab. Is that the nature of my character, or is that the nature of my playing style? Most of the time, we can't answer these questions directly without looking at the playing styles of others and how they play. The problem with people who play characters like Mewtwo is that there really aren't many other people who play Mewtwo to look to.

Taj278 said:

Mewtwo and in some cases Yoshi are those exceptions.

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Taj has an everything... except a Yoshi.

****ing Kosuke LMAO

I will get back to this thread tmrw. So much text over the weekend.

DrewB008 said:

youre saying that youre good enough to land enough grabs/hits with mewtwo to kill people and have success, and you kill people better with mewtwo than any zelda does

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This is basically it. Taj, you do well against Link because you're really good at this game and probably have more experience in this matchup than anybody else. I'd take a guess that you're the only quality Mewtwo that Germ or Trevyn has ever played, and you said that you've played against Links before.

I've got a lot of experience in the Sheik matchup and do pretty well at it in spite of Link's horrible matchup. This isn't because the matchup isn't that bad, it's because I know the **** thing inside and out while my opponent doesn't. Against people who know the Link matchup it just gets stupid, there's no hope.

I'm not saying you've played a ton of Links (or that Link vs M2 is like sheik vs low tiers), but you have a lot more experience in the matchup than anybody else, so you're not seeing anyone playing a proper "anti-Mewtwo" game because nobody has really developed a good game against Mewtwo.

Huh... Been playing Link so long without checking the match-up statistics...didn't realize I had it so bad in the past. LOL!

Meh.

Also, in Kage's and (possibly) Taj's (I'm not associated with Taj period and Kage's still pretty fresh in my mind from At Melee's End) defense, AD, it's easy enough to accept the flaws in your own character. It's when you choose to ignore those flaws and power on through with what you have and push the envelope to begin with, that count. At least, that's what I figure. And that's what I saw when Kage took 1st Place with Ganondorf only, while having to compete against highly respected Canadian Smashers like FalseFalco (whom used the likes of Fox, Falco, Captain Falcon, many big name tier runners), SuPeRbOoM, MikeMonkey, Blunted Object, I can go on and on really.

Call me a Kage fan, but...

If you want to make your character out to be as good as you claim them to be, flaws or no? Do it without any drawbacks. It's when you back it all up with your skill that makes it all worthwhile in the end. Overrate your character all you want to when you've got the stuff to keep your ship afloat.

Get what I'm sayin', AfterDawn?

Hey, I could be entirely wrong and could be blowing smoke outta my rear for both Kage and Taj, but from my standpoint and seeing them play the characters that they do and how well they use them? That's just what I figure. Correct me if I'm wrong, s'no big deal.

Not exactly contributing to the discussion, but it's amusing seeing Trevyn get respect on the boards, but when you go to youtube, nobody knows who he is.

Aztoogood.

this thread got too serious.
oh wait, link/m2. carry on.

i kind of want to know more about samus/jiggly, just because i don't know if i've ever seen a decent match of it. and because i'm selfish and don't care what other people want to talk about.

I was going to make a big, long post for skler, kage, and taj but skler posted what I was going to say:

Skler said:

This is basically it. Taj, you do well against Link because you're really good at this game and probably have more experience in this matchup than anybody else. I'd take a guess that you're the only quality Mewtwo that Germ or Trevyn has ever played, and you said that you've played against Links before.

I've got a lot of experience in the Sheik matchup and do pretty well at it in spite of Link's horrible matchup. This isn't because the matchup isn't that bad, it's because I know the **** thing inside and out while my opponent doesn't. Against people who know the Link matchup it just gets stupid, there's no hope.

I'm not saying you've played a ton of Links (or that Link vs M2 is like sheik vs low tiers), but you have a lot more experience in the matchup than anybody else, so you're not seeing anyone playing a proper "anti-Mewtwo" game because nobody has really developed a good game against Mewtwo.

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thank you.

when we are talking about matchups, we are talking about players close to equal skill. I'm sure these link and fox players that taj plays against, he probably 4-stocks with marth (groundless statement, but w/e).

The matchups are supposed to be with two high level players.

if you are a high/top level player, and your're ****** noob/mid level players, then how you are basing the matchup is completely wrong.

I'm pretty sure Trevyn and Germ aren't mediocre, LOL.

lol the germ

i don't know who trevyn is, but i'll take your word for it

still, taj is miles better than either of them definitely

Trevyn = Zerelid Chaos. He's basically retired now, though.

DrewB008 said:

well thats not exactly what i meant either

seeing as taj is head and shoulders above every other mewtwo, it doesnt really matter what weaknesses other people suffer from. we should assume, when quantifying matchups, that both players are playing the matchup and their characters well. if most people suffer from weaknesses that taj does not, it can be assumed that they are not playing mewtwo as well as current play allows

what i posted addressed more specifically what taj said about mewtwo being terrible on paper, but in his hands better than zelda. i also might just be ignorant about mewtwo, so i'd like input from taj on this one, but i think his own ability to land more grabs and hits than his opponent needs to be compared to a theoretical ability of another character to land a comparable amount of hits and grabs. assuming a zelda was good enough to predict their opponent often enough and effectively edgeguard as well as her character reasonably allows, would mewtwo still be able to out-ko her? thats the point i was trying to make; not so much that pros need to consider worse players when they discuss matchups, but rather that the rest of us should only consider top play

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Yeah, I kinda said that jokingly, but you're right. My ability to land grabs is apparent with any character I play, especially my high tiers, but you can't compare the mechanics of landing Zelda's aerials to landing Mewtwo's grab. They're completely different, have different ranges, and different properties as far as chaining damage and damage/knockback decay goes. Zelda doesn't have as potent of an edgeguard game as Mewtwo. My Zelda can probably beat most people like most of my other characters, but I see Zelda as an extremely limited character with small defensive and probing strategies. Zelda just isn't as "dynamic" as Mewtwo (Except for her Down B ).


The thing is... my Mewtwo does well against players that are of higher skill than me as well. Forward is a better player than me, and during the brief stints that he chose to "main" Link (He does this with a lot of characters, you may have seen his amazing Sheik and Fox as a product of this). I end up winning the majority of those matches even though they're close and he knows my Mewtwo better than anyone. I suppose the question is whether it's my player skill "carrying" Mewtwo, or my skill in executing what is "necessary" for Mewtwo to be viable.

I guess I'll just have to leave it at that. Mewtwo's match-ups would be completely dependent on that. It's not just Skler either, most other people would consider Mewtwo among their easiest match-ups, where most M2 players would agree with me in saying this is their better match-up. Where can we really find common ground between mains in the mid-low tiers?

Kage is legit, I have mad respect for him. I can see everything about his Ganon that makes him win. As much as we want to consider perfect play, Kage seems to have that killing intent, that pressure that makes people do what he wants and it can work on almost everyone. He's quite dangerous.

yeah i just used zelda as an example because you did, i also think zelda is junk

but im glad we understand each other as far as the other stuff goes

very insightful posts

I find that most people that I play (noobs/scrubs and sometimes semi-pro people) think that M2 is the easiest matchup just because nobody they have played has put the time into becoming a good M2 main. I'm pretty sure most M2 mains will agree with me M2 has a HUGE learning curve. It's mainly like what Taj said, you can't play M2 like any other character, it just requires a different mindset. My secondary is Roy, and I'm twice as good with M2 simply because I try to play roy like M2. Which doesn't work.

I dunno, Taj influences me too much. You're my hero Taj.

x After Dawn x said:

Yeah, I don't like it when pros at certain characters tend to overrate their characters. Kage does it a lot with Ganon, and Taj seems to do it with Mewtwo a lot. It's almost as if they can't admit the weaknesses of their character and not themselves...there are other people that play those characters and suffer from the weaknesses more than people like you do, Taj. Plus, we can't formulate theory from the advice from one person. One person might have a lot of the experience we need for our information, but people have different opinions and different information. There are others (though very few) that can play decently with Mewtwo / know a lot about Mewtwo too.

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That's mainly because you do not understand the depth of a character fully. If you were the best with one character then you would understand. Sure I have weaknesses but I did everything I can to break those weaknesses as that is the path of true power I suppose. And then I trained every matchup and I can clearly see the weaknesses of certain matchups.

Taj278 said:

Kage is legit, I have mad respect for him. I can see everything about his Ganon that makes him win. As much as we want to consider perfect play, Kage seems to have that killing intent, that pressure that makes people do what he wants and it can work on almost everyone. He's quite dangerous.

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LOL, noo.. don't tell them! =P I do fight with everything I've got and this is why I'm the warrior lol. Kill or be killed pretty much. =P
I would definitely like to play you! Are you going to Genesis?

Also it's really cool that you play Mewtwo omg.. how's that like generally?

Edit: Isn't cool to be a hero, Taj? =) There's only a few heroes I know of these days. Ka-Master is one, you, I'm going to say me as I've been told I'm a hero now lol. (Playing Ganon and destroying everything) I'd say even Gimpyfish too. I don't know who else could be?

i like the way kage talks. "that is the path of true power"

lmfao so awesome.

JPOBS said:

i like the way kage talks. "that is the path of true power"

lmfao so awesome.

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lolll.. well I gotta be the warrior on the boards too. =P lol. And if you go to Genesis I'm going full out warrior, you won't miss me. lol.

lol, what up kage!!

edit: I was discussing with people, and discussing that single digits will make things a lot more simple.

The Immortal Sir NZ said:

I find that most people that I play (noobs/scrubs and sometimes semi-pro people) think that M2 is the easiest matchup just because nobody they have played has put the time into becoming a good M2 main. I'm pretty sure most M2 mains will agree with me M2 has a HUGE learning curve. It's mainly like what Taj said, you can't play M2 like any other character, it just requires a different mindset. My secondary is Roy, and I'm twice as good with M2 simply because I try to play roy like M2. Which doesn't work.

I dunno, Taj influences me too much. You're my hero Taj.

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Most people probably think M2 is one of their characters easiest matchups because M2 is a bad character.

A good player doesn't make a bad character less bad, the character is still bad, it just means the player is good. Noobs/scrubs will lose to a good player no matter what character is picked, that doesn't change that M2 is an easy matchup for almost every character.

This isn't a shot at M2 players or anything like that, it's just true. Mewtwo is bad. Maybe not Pichu bad, but close. There are some matchups he isn't bad at, but he's up there in "easiest matchups" for plenty of characters.



@ Taj, I say we find common ground at 65.

@Kage, if you don't win Genesis I'll be sad. You've got more soul than any of those foxes, sheiks and marths.

Divinokage said:

That's mainly because you do not understand the depth of a character fully. If you were the best with one character then you would understand. Sure I have weaknesses but I did everything I can to break those weaknesses as that is the path of true power I suppose. And then I trained every matchup and I can clearly see the weaknesses of certain matchups.

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I know that I don't understand the absolute depth of each character's metagame, but the opinion of many smashers is always worth more than the opinion of one person, no matter how good or knowledgeable that one person is. For example, M2K thinks that Sheik is the best character on the tier list, but the rest of the SBR is in favor of Fox being the best, so Fox is the best. Everybody understands the Melee metagame differently than others, and this is not only what makes our styles of play all dynamic but it also brings forth different strong points and weak points in how we play our characters. Which is why I say that a character's weakness is often mistaken for the way we play those characters, not the characters themselves. If you were to say Ganon's worst matchup was Sheik (I'm just throwing this out as an example) but every other professional Ganon said that Falco was a worst matchup, then we would most likely consider Falco as the worst matchup. That's why I said earlier that it's often difficult for mains of characters below high tier to have their matchup knowledge completely fleshed out; there aren't that many "good" players who play these characters out there as much as people who play higher tier characters.

One more thing: Players like you and Taj seem to be one step ahead of other Ganon / Mewtwo mains, so the way you interpret these matchups could be different than what the other 99 % of Ganon / Mewtwo mains see the metagame.

people should explain why matchups go certain ways instead of just saying they do, citing range of moves, recoveries, combos, etc. and not just results. that way there are actual debating points, and it doesnt matter how good people saying them are because we can all debate those elements of gameplay. kage being the best ganon and going even with marths is not necessarily proof that ganon and marth is even, but if kage explains what strategies ganon can use to beat marths range and it seems reasonable, then that would serve as grounds for that matchup being even. taj and sklers conversation was ideal, discussing exactly what the characters would do to each other, and not just saying "everybody knows link beats mewtwo" or "ive always been able to handle links"

it doesnt matter how many people say something if theyre all wrong, so we cant necessarily go by popular opinion either. arguments need to be grounded in the game to really affect opinion and public outlook.

DrewB008 said:

people should explain why matchups go certain ways instead of just saying they do, citing range of moves, recoveries, combos, etc. and not just results. that way there are actual debating points, and it doesnt matter how good people saying them are because we can all debate those elements of gameplay. kage being the best ganon and going even with marths is not necessarily proof that ganon and marth is even, but if kage explains what strategies ganon can use to beat marths range and it seems reasonable, then that would serve as grounds for that matchup being even. taj and sklers conversation was ideal, discussing exactly what the characters would do to each other, and not just saying "everybody knows link beats mewtwo" or "ive always been able to handle links"

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Agreed.

DrewB008 said:

it doesnt matter how many people say something if theyre all wrong, so we cant necessarily go by popular opinion either. arguments need to be grounded in the game to really affect opinion and public outlook.

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I'm not talking about the popular opinion of random smashers, I'm more talking about the empirical sway of an experienced smashers that both has knowledge about his characters vs. other characters, other characters, and how the metagame fairs out in his situations with his mains. People that are in the SBR would fit this description.

I've been asking people on MSN, and AIM for help with the chart.

DrewB008 said:

people should explain why matchups go certain ways instead of just saying they do, citing range of moves, recoveries, combos, etc. and not just results. that way there are actual debating points, and it doesnt matter how good people saying them are because we can all debate those elements of gameplay. kage being the best ganon and going even with marths is not necessarily proof that ganon and marth is even, but if kage explains what strategies ganon can use to beat marths range and it seems reasonable, then that would serve as grounds for that matchup being even. taj and sklers conversation was ideal, discussing exactly what the characters would do to each other, and not just saying "everybody knows link beats mewtwo" or "ive always been able to handle links"

it doesnt matter how many people say something if theyre all wrong, so we cant necessarily go by popular opinion either. arguments need to be grounded in the game to really affect opinion and public outlook.

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5/19/2009 8:04:20 PM Kage the Stylist, 2009 Ryan Ford: alright marth?? I would say either even or actually 55-45 for ganon
5/19/2009 8:04:51 PM Kage the Stylist, 2009 Ryan Ford: Because I have not lost a set yet on that matchup and... well edgeguarding marth is a joke lol
5/19/2009 8:05:07 PM Kage the Stylist, 2009 Ryan Ford: and theres many DI option and outspacing options vs marth as well
5/19/2009 8:05:21 PM Kage the Stylist, 2009 Ryan Ford: just DI properly his combos and you can **** him with Ganon's combo on marth because of his weight
5/19/2009 8:05:38 PM Kage the Stylist, 2009 Ryan Ford: like downthrow, nair, to something else
5/19/2009 8:05:44 PM Kage the Stylist, 2009 Ryan Ford: or downthrow, back air lol
5/19/2009 8:05:49 PM Ryan Ford Kage the Stylist, 2009: wow
5/19/2009 8:06:04 PM Kage the Stylist, 2009 Ryan Ford: and you can uair out of shield in between his fairs
5/19/2009 8:06:14 PM Ryan Ford Kage the Stylist, 2009: I didn't know that
5/19/2009 8:06:16 PM Kage the Stylist, 2009 Ryan Ford: or just trade a fair with his fair, and you cant trade with ganon
5/19/2009 8:06:27 PM Kage the Stylist, 2009 Ryan Ford: trading with ganon is bad lol
5/19/2009 8:06:33 PM Ryan Ford Kage the Stylist, 2009: true
5/19/2009 8:06:53 PM Kage the Stylist, 2009 Ryan Ford: ya i did downair to downthrow, nair, fair lol
5/19/2009 8:06:59 PM Ryan Ford Kage the Stylist, 2009: lol
5/19/2009 8:07:01 PM Ryan Ford Kage the Stylist, 2009: on who?
5/19/2009 8:07:05 PM Kage the Stylist, 2009 Ryan Ford: on a marth
5/19/2009 8:07:08 PM Kage the Stylist, 2009 Ryan Ford: G$
5/19/2009 8:07:12 PM Ryan Ford Kage the Stylist, 2009: LOL
5/19/2009 8:07:25 PM Kage the Stylist, 2009 Ryan Ford: and he died 0-death in 2 secs lol
5/19/2009 8:07:29 PM Kage the Stylist, 2009 Ryan Ford: because he WC DI the fair lol
5/19/2009 8:07:33 PM Ryan Ford Kage the Stylist, 2009: ****
5/19/2009 8:07:46 PM Ryan Ford Kage the Stylist, 2009: that's hilarious
5/19/2009 8:07:53 PM Kage the Stylist, 2009 Ryan Ford: haha the secrets of ganon =P


Edit: Kage: if you didn't want me to post this then my bad.

Edit2: I don't completely agree with this, but I understand what he's saying and respect his input and knowledge.

edit3: since this post has been wasted, the convo is very confusing looking at it. Kage is mostly talking

well first off you gotta clean up your aim thing, was that both your names appearing before every message? i was really confused

but seriously, yeah thats the kind of stuff i would want to read. i would challenge it a little and ask what reliable method ganon has to get grabs on marth

and you cant follow up a nair if they DI it away, can you?

yeah, sorry about that. I just copy+paste it. Whoever's name comes first is the one who's talking....so yeah, mostly kage.

I asked him for his opinions on several matchups.

glad that this is really making progress. I really wish I could help, but I can't haha.

The most I could probably contribute would be falcon vs. marth or falcon vs. falco.

^ please share

falcon is soooo fun. that is all.

Skler said:

Most people probably think M2 is one of their characters easiest matchups because M2 is a bad character.

A good player doesn't make a bad character less bad, the character is still bad, it just means the player is good. Noobs/scrubs will lose to a good player no matter what character is picked, that doesn't change that M2 is an easy matchup for almost every character.

This isn't a shot at M2 players or anything like that, it's just true. Mewtwo is bad. Maybe not Pichu bad, but close. There are some matchups he isn't bad at, but he's up there in "easiest matchups" for plenty of characters.



@ Taj, I say we find common ground at 65.

@Kage, if you don't win Genesis I'll be sad. You've got more soul than any of those foxes, sheiks and marths.

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I dont agree with m2 being an easy matchup. if they dont have a particularly decent amount of range or are marth fox falco sheik falcon then they probably cant do too much overwhelming.floaties tend to be unable to combo m2 and he can dtilt fair and upthrow. plus good off the stage edgeguarding. m2 players just need to know what they are doing and play to their strengths and protect their weeknesses

i don't agree with marth being even with cf.

the matchup is in falcons favor 55-45 or 60-40.

the only strong point marth has grabbing and tech chasing or edgeguarding with gimps.

Despite the chart may not be perfect, I think a 3rd chart should be created which is based on the actually potential of each character. In other word, a character that is good against Shiek should gain more "points" over a character that is equally good against Link. Then, you'll get a more precise ranking system, because as it stands, Shiek is definitely not the best character (although debatable).

A lot of people would (and do) argue though that Sheik is the best character. Not saying it's a bad idea though.

JBM falcon08 said:

i don't agree with marth being even with cf.

the matchup is in falcons favor 55-45 or 60-40.

the only strong point marth has grabbing and tech chasing or edgeguarding with gimps.

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I think it's 55-45 falcon. Falcon can dd around anything marth can do, and once he gets inside with a nair-> grab it's over. uair's juggle super hard, uthrow knee kills at 65% or so IIRC, and falcon can ledge guard marf pretty easily. The only strong points marf has is bfield/yoshi's platforms, controlling the ledge (especially at small maps) and gimps

t3h Icy said:

Despite the chart may not be perfect, I think a 3rd chart should be created which is based on the actually potential of each character. In other word, a character that is good against Shiek should gain more "points" over a character that is equally good against Link. Then, you'll get a more precise ranking system, because as it stands, Shiek is definitely not the best character (although debatable).

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maybe, but some do argue that she is. m2k is one of them.

U can deny the easy and **** shieks bring to the table. combos arent even questionable. even casuals could stumble upon them

KAOSTAR said:

I dont agree with m2 being an easy matchup. if they dont have a particularly decent amount of range or are marth fox falco sheik falcon then they probably cant do too much overwhelming.floaties tend to be unable to combo m2 and he can dtilt fair and upthrow. plus good off the stage edgeguarding. m2 players just need to know what they are doing and play to their strengths and protect their weeknesses

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It would appear you think M2 is mid tier. Also lol @ dtilt -> fair being a reason.

M2 vs Peach- bad matchup for M2 (dsmash, turnips, priority).

M2 vs Samus- bad matchup for M2 (ftilt, missiles, giant cat).

M2 vs Puff- I may be going out on a limb here, but there's reason to believe it's a horrible matchup for M2 (priority, rest, giant cat.)

M2 vs the Marios and Luigi- bad matchups for M2 (priority, speed, hats).

I know I'm missing a floaty somewhere in there. Zelda? Don't know much about her except the toe has more than decent range and can KO early. Aside from that I'd actually give the match to M2. Not sure how much of an impact the toe has on the matchup though.

Those are all the floaties that aren't Marth, right?

I wouldn't mind being corrected on any of those, I don't pretend to actually know the matchups well. Really though, almost everyone has an advantage against M2, and it's going to be a pretty big advantage most of the time.

Well, regardless of whether Sheik is the best character or not, if my point wasn't made clear enough, I mean something like this, where there is one ranking chart for the matchups and one for the actual importance of each matchup.

Essentially, the best character is often one that is the best against the best (so someone that is good against Fox, Falco, Marth and Shiek). Based on the looks of the chart as it is now, Falco would likely be winning that. The thing is though, Sheik absolutely destroys almost every other character below that, which could arguably make up for not being the best against the top characters.

So that's why I propose that someone checks that out. I could, but I'd get annoyed with myself for doing it the long way when there's likely a quick mathematical formula to get the data.

Possibly after that, it'd be interesting to see the 2nd and 3rd ones, and so on until the results don't change, which would be the true rankings of how good a character is in a tournament. The only thing though is that our estimates on how good a matchup is could be more or less from the true numbers.

Skler said:

It would appear you think M2 is mid tier. Also lol @ dtilt -> fair being a reason.

M2 vs Peach- bad matchup for M2 (dsmash, turnips, priority).

M2 vs Samus- bad matchup for M2 (ftilt, missiles, giant cat).

M2 vs Puff- I may be going out on a limb here, but there's reason to believe it's a horrible matchup for M2 (priority, rest, giant cat.)

M2 vs the Marios and Luigi- bad matchups for M2 (priority, speed, hats).

I know I'm missing a floaty somewhere in there. Zelda? Don't know much about her except the toe has more than decent range and can KO early. Aside from that I'd actually give the match to M2. Not sure how much of an impact the toe has on the matchup though.

Those are all the floaties that aren't Marth, right?

I wouldn't mind being corrected on any of those, I don't pretend to actually know the matchups well. Really though, almost everyone has an advantage against M2, and it's going to be a pretty big advantage most of the time.

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you for got Mr. Game&Watch.