TDB: SEASON 2! LEON (RE4) vs LARA CROFT

payasofobia · Jun 21, 2009

Then I guess it is decided, Bowser wins.

Marthage, like the guy above me said, bowser can retreat to his shell and he will basically be on a resting position while fully covering most openings. Spitting fire at long range wont do ****.

kirbywizard · Jun 21, 2009

Marthage said:
Charizard can still shoot fire while flying...and bowser will tire out eventually as well by trying to get after Charizard too...

I'm getting triple teamed...oh snap *puts up shield...prepares for onslaught...*

Bowser can just go into his shell, and Charizard can do nothing to hurt him. All Bowser has to do is wait

adumbrodeus · Jun 21, 2009

Pierce7d said:
Seeing as both characters are essentially similar, I'd say Bowser is probably stronger. He has a machine from which he can fly, if flying is a problem, and he's pretty evenly matched with charizard, but he's got a slightly studier build, and a spiked shell. While Charizard can fly, he doesn't actually outrange Bowser, so this only aids combat mobility. Both can throw things at each other, and breath fire at each other. Furthermore, it's easier to damage Charizard's wing, which greatly hinders his mobility completely, even beyond just his flying, as Charizard needs them to balance.

No they're not. Charizard is 5'6" average. Bowser is about 3 times that, and with bulk to go with it. Everyone's been scaled in brawl.

Reality is, Charizard is REALLY outmatched.

You see, in order for flight to work IRL, you need an extremely light construction. You're talking about hollow bones here.

Basically, this construction is NOT gonna be good for taking hits, he can get a fair amount of force, because based on his construction he can build a fair amount of speed if attacks from above, but Bowser just has too much bulk and strength.

1 hit from bowser = broken bones, 1 hit from charizard = nothing.

payasofobia · Jun 21, 2009

This is the second most one sided match in the series, second to DDD vs DK.

Why not make a more balanced fight consisting of, I dunno, Dygenguard vs Samus?

Ray_Kalm · Jun 21, 2009

adumbrodeus said:
No they're not. Charizard is 5'6" average. Bowser is about 3 times that, and with bulk to go with it. Everyone's been scaled in brawl.

Reality is, Charizard is REALLY outmatched.

You see, in order for flight to work IRL, you need an extremely light construction. You're talking about hollow bones here.

Basically, this construction is NOT gonna be good for taking hits, he can get a fair amount of force, because based on his construction he can build a fair amount of speed if attacks from above, but Bowser just has too much bulk and strength.

1 hit from bowser = broken bones, 1 hit from charizard = nothing.

Have you seen how strong seismic toss is? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFmF0UZr3YM

payasofobia · Jun 21, 2009

Ray_Kalm said:
Have you seen how strong seismic toss is? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFmF0UZr3YM

Charizard wouldn't even be able to lift bowser, and if we are taking gameplay into consideration, seismic toss would only do 100 damage IF the charizard we are talking about is level 100. If he is lower than that...he won't even scratch bowser.

Also, articuno has a very low defense...

Sieguest · Jun 21, 2009

Ray_Kalm said:
Have you seen how strong seismic toss is? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFmF0UZr3YM

Unfortunately the seismic toss is not allowed....if it was..Charizard would own...I think Seisimic toss is too unrealistic of a move...although it's like a throw...no way in the world anyone or thing could muster enough strength to perform a throw with strength enough to flip the earth....

Anyway! I'M STILL FIGHTING FOR ZARD...
If bowser goes into that stupid shell...then Zard will just stop firing...and open up again as soon as bowser pokes that head out...

@paysofobia- damage aspect aside...the reason seismic toss is so revered is it "packs enough power to flip the earth"...hence why in some pokemon episodes when Charizard is flying in that circle the image of the earth appears.....but that won't matter now won't it....

adumbrodeus · Jun 21, 2009

Ray_Kalm said:
Have you seen how strong seismic toss is? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFmF0UZr3YM

Check OP dude, it's not realistic for Charizard to be able to do it, so it's out.

We're doing a "realistic" discussion, aka if these creatures existed aproximately IRL, who would win. Charizard does not have the physical construction to do fly with bowser in tow, just not happening.

Ray_Kalm · Jun 21, 2009

Marthage said:
Unfortunately the seismic toss is not allowed....if it was..Charizard would own...I think Seisimic toss is too unrealistic of a move...although it's like a throw...no way in the world anyone or thing could muster enough strength to perform a throw with strength enough to flip the earth....

Anyway! I'M STILL FIGHTING FOR ZARD...
If bowser goes into that stupid shell...then Zard will just stop firing...and open up again as soon as bowser pokes that head out...

@paysofobia- damage aspect aside...the reason seismic toss is so revered is it "packs enough power to flip the earth"...hence why in some pokemon episodes when Charizard is flying in that circle the image of the earth appears.....but that won't matter now won't it....

Then why are we talking about a large lizard with wings and a giant turtle with spikes on his shell to begin with?

payasofobia · Jun 21, 2009

Then the bell rings and the winner is the one with the most HP. Bowser has more HP than char.

Sieguest · Jun 21, 2009

Ray_Kalm said:
Then why are we talking about a large lizard with wings and a giant turtle with spikes on his shell to begin with?

It's because we're pitting the characters in a realistic situation...not the characters themselves having to be realistic in terms of features..but special abilities that either totally kill the matchup or are TOO unrealistic are not included...only basic attributes canon to a character are accepted....

@payasofobia- meh I guess we've discussed char and bowser enough....i
it was a good run Charizard....you fought well...squirtle'll make up for your loss...

Hmm....I think it should be... a kirby vs. Jigglypuff...but Sonic vs. Snake wouldn't be bad either....

I wonder what the Bowser: Charizard kill ratio will look like in the break down...

payasofobia · Jun 21, 2009

Ray_Kalm said:
Then why are we talking about a large lizard with wings and a giant turtle with spikes on his shell to begin with?

Oh, I see, nevermind that.

Also, Bowser already totally kills the match-up with his basic abilities alone. But, if this thread actually allowed the use of hyper beam and the like for charizard, then this would actually be more balanced.

Ray_Kalm · Jun 21, 2009

payasofobia said:
This is one of my gripes with this thread. Why not make this into a Character vs character fight with all their canonical powers instead of choosing what looks rsealistic and what does not?

Sure, this is OP's thread and he made the rules, but it would be more interesting and not as frustrating just to apply their canon powers.

That's why there's this thread.

Sonic on the Rocks · Jun 21, 2009

Charizard can still shoot fire while flying...and bowser will tire out eventually as well by trying to get after Charizard too...

1. We've gone over Bowser being virtually fire proof (bar full-body submersion in gigantic fire pits).
2. If I'm trying to hit a bird with a stick, and the bird is circling far out of my reach, I'm not going to run around after it like an idiot until I get tired out. if Charizard stays in the air forever, he will eventually get tired and have to land. In the event Charizard lands due to exaustion, Bowser is on him like ugly on Wario.

Also, Bowser can spin on his shell, as seen when Mario gives him a beating.

Moving on, Sonic > Snake anyday.

payasofobia · Jun 21, 2009

Ray_Kalm said:
That's why there's this thread.

Oh ****, disregard that, that has to be the most broken match-ups I have ever seen. Also
DYGENGUARD VS SAMUS, PLZ! Just to get out of the routine....

Both are superpowered suits of armor that are used by the raging rampage of badass and the intergalactic babe of badass respectively.

Sieguest · Jun 21, 2009

Sonic on the Rocks said:
1. We've gone over Bowser being virtually fire proof (bar full-body submersion in gigantic fire pits).
2. If I'm trying to hit a bird with a stick, and the bird is circling far out of my reach, I'm not going to run around after it like an idiot until I get tired out. if Charizard stays in the air forever, he will eventually get tired and have to land. In the event Charizard lands due to exaustion, Bowser is on him like ugly on Wario.

Also, Bowser can spin on his shell, as seen when Mario gives him a beating.

Moving on, Sonic > Snake anyday.

Probably useless to...but I'll argue this anyway....
1. still worth a shot...and bowser has been damaged by fire before....it'll do something
2. Charizard won't stay in the air forever...land when it gets its distance and if bowser starts getting too close..get back in the air.... :lick:

Sonic on the Rocks · Jun 21, 2009

1. Bowser shoots fireballs that home in on you in New Super Mario Bros, and can shoot quite large volleys of those and the normal kind at will.
2. As was said, he practically lives in a volcano, there's pits of lava everywhere in his castles. He obviously is quite resistant to extreme heat. And quite frankly that works both ways, as not very effective means its still effective somewhat (approximately half as much, if I recall).
3. Flying uses much more energy than simply walking around, or laying in your shell. Bowser's stamina is greater than Charizard's in the first place; logically it must be to carry around his ungodly heavy, 10-foot shell all the time and still move at his quick speeds. Bowser can jump almost as high as Mario, and in Super Paper Mario is twice as strong (and Mario can swing Bowser huge distances).

Has it been a week yet?

Sieguest · Jun 22, 2009

Sonic on the Rocks said:
1. Bowser shoots fireballs that home in on you in New Super Mario Bros, and can shoot quite large volleys of those and the normal kind at will.
2. As was said, he practically lives in a volcano, there's pits of lava everywhere in his castles. He obviously is quite resistant to extreme heat. And quite frankly that works both ways, as not very effective means its still effective somewhat (approximately half as much, if I recall).
3. Flying uses much more energy than simply walking around, or laying in your shell. Bowser's stamina is greater than Charizard's in the first place; logically it must be to carry around his ungodly heavy, 10-foot shell all the time and still move at his quick speeds. Bowser can jump almost as high as Mario, and in Super Paper Mario is twice as strong (and Mario can swing Bowser huge distances).

Has it been a week yet?

1. your second point says it all :chuckle:

2. All agreed and yes it .5 times as much for a not very effective move
3.Which is why I state fly until it gets it's distance...and then land....that'll keep it going for awhile...if that keeps up...bowser will tire...eventually (emphasis on eventually) and charizard's periodic breaks until bowser gets close will keep the fire alive! (corny pun I know...)

Iunno about the week thing....but...I think we all know what the breakdown will look like... I'm just trying to keep it from being completely lopsided :chuckle:

Meh...I got SS tomorrow...I couldn't discuss more if I even wanted to...
good night and Good Game? (you know what I mean...Good Discussion...?)

Sonic on the Rocks · Jun 22, 2009

Alrighty then.
I'm pretty sure it's majority rules that Bowser wins this matchup.

Beren Zaiga · Jun 22, 2009

@ payasofobia: If this is the world of reality, Bowser probably has the muscle strength to lug himself around, a turtle in real life can support itself and it's shell, which for it is probably not the lightest thing in the world. If we go by scale modeling where Bowser is compared to a turtle/tortoise that can breath fire, then it is probably likely that Bowser is only slightly burdened by his shell in reality.

B!squick · Jun 22, 2009

Yeah, if a tortoise can support a car on it's back, I'm sure Bowser doesn't have any problems.

chaoslink20 · Jun 22, 2009

Don't also forget he's had his shell for years. So he has most likely gotten used to the weight. How else do you think he jumped so high in his games?

Kid Nino · Jun 22, 2009

daisho said:
Why do you exist??????

(read the OP, this has nothing to do with how cool they are in their show or game, just their physical abilities)

Way to be very rude!
Then it's still Charizard. -.-

Sonic on the Rocks · Jun 22, 2009

Um no, it's not.
Do you have any sort of arguement why?
If I said Olimar wins vs Ganondorf, it doesn't just happen.

daisho · Jun 22, 2009

Kid Nino said:
Way to be very rude!
Then it's still Charizard. -.-

I was completely joking... I can't see how anyone would think that I was being serious...

JOE! · Jun 22, 2009

THE BREAKDOWN

WEAPONARY

Both combatants bring to the table formidable claws, teeth, and nasty breath.

THE EDGE: BOWSER

Bowser plain and simple outclasses charizard in this department, everything charizard has, bowser has a better version of.

CLAWS: 'Zard has 3 per hand, bowser has 4. As well as having more, they are considerably bigger, and on much stronger and longer arms.

TEETH: Bowser's are bigger and in a stronger mouth.

FIRE BREATH: This was a bit of an odd weapon to figure out. They are both very fire resistant...but that doesnt mean fire invulnrable.
The decideing factor here would be the effects on each, and what kind of flame they can produce, which again factors bowser's size.
Bowser is much, much bigger than charizard, so naturally he can produce a much larger/longer flame, giving him more options with it, where as relativley, Charizard has to close in to use his, putting him in danger of bowser.
Having a bigger flame also means charizard has a harder time avoiding it if he chooses to.

ARMOR

Charizard brings speed to the table..where as Bowser relies on his massive size and shell to pull through.

THE EDGE: BOWSER

Yet again, bowser is the better. Charizard may be fast, and able to avoid bowser for a bit, but what can he do to Bowser?

Bowser's girth allows him to shrug off any atack from charizard:

Natural weaponary becomes useless, his scales or shell just deflects the comparitivley small attacks, and leaves charizard wide open.

If charizard tries to drop things on bowser, we'll be nice and give him the lifting abilities comparable to large birds of prey: 1/4th his weight. thats 50 lbs. unfortunatley for zard, 50lbs wont do too much to a 4000lb animal, with a very tough shell.

If he tries to create wind to mess with bowser, it may be the last thing he does. Here's why:
In order for charizard to direct the wind, he will need a way to hover vertically and flap his wings toward bowser with enough force to push air in a significant manner.
While vertical, he can no longer push downwards against air, keeping him in flight, meaning he will plummet.
Even if he were to manage to float, he would only produce winds strong enough to keep him afloat...which will be a light breeze to somethign as big as bowser.

SKILL

Charizard is a Pokemon, and as such spent a lifetime battling other monsters. He has battle-ready reflexes, and has most likely remembered some strategy from his trainer (if he had one)

Bowser hasnt really been known to need to fight anything, other than the occasional Italian stereotype.

THE EDGE: CHARIZARD

Charizard takes this round, Bowser simply has no real fighting experience to speak of. That being said, hes never NEEDED it...

PHYSIQUE

Charizard comes in at 5 foot, 7 inches, and 200lbs. He has large wings, a long neck, long tail and large feet, yet scrawny arms.

Bowser is an impressive 10ft, 4000lbs. He has very muscular arms/legs, a massive head, and a huge spiked shell.

THE EDGE: BOWSER

Bowser takes this round easily. Being 20x heavier is nearly ever a disadvantage.
On top of that, he has no real disadvantages to his design: he has spines/horns protecting his SHELL, and formidable claws and teeth to protect his front.

Charizard on the other hand has scrawny arms, and a long thin neck to worry about in a fight. Not to mention his large wings, which would eb an easy target while grounded.

SYNOPSIS

This fight is regretably very, very, very lopsided.

Seeing as there is near nothing Charizard can do to actually inflict damage on bowser, let alone kill him, and bowser can finish off charizard rather easily....

999/1

Why the 1 you may ask? In 1000 encounters, 99% of the time, Bowser would simply demolish Charizard, or wait it out until Charizard tires, or makes a mistake.

In one fortunate match however, Charizard should be able to hit and run effectivley enough, without getting hit by bowser to end the fight by 1000 cuts, so to speak.

In the end, Bowser is simply too big for Charizard to tackle.

JOE! · Jun 22, 2009

new match momentarily

JUDGE · Jun 22, 2009

snake would definitely win!!!!
wolf would die before he realize that snake is already behind him!!

AranOcean · Jun 22, 2009

Easily Snake.

n88 · Jun 22, 2009

Wolf and Snake go even physically, I think. Snake may be stealthy, but Wolf can just claw him and bite a chunk out of his a**.

I think this would come down to weaponry.

Affinity · Jun 22, 2009

Snake, definitely.

JOE! · Jun 22, 2009

so far snake has the popular vote.

yet no real explanation as to why...?

Moozle · Jun 22, 2009

I'm going to say Wolf because in StarFox64 there was that one awesome level where everything was metal and there were pillars that were spinning and shooting out lasers and you had to fight Wolf there and destroy the pillars. If snake was caught there, he would get pwnsauced.

Sonic on the Rocks · Jun 22, 2009

In the end, Bowser is simply too big for Charizard to tackle.

I lol'd.
Anyway.
In terms of intelligence, Snake has the slight edge. Snake has an IQ of 180, a genius, but Wolf is also quite intelligent and an excelent strategist, leader of a well-armed and organized criminal hideout in Star Fox Assault. So this is fairly even.
In terms of lethality, Wolf wins in close range combat no contest. He's a killing machine with his teeth and long claws; I don't care how strong Snake is. In case any of you don't know, Metal Gear Solid is a stealth game. Snake doesn't have a large amount of close combat experience. Wolf is the fastest character on foot in Starfox Assault, with a full 100/100. In a firearm fight, Wolf is just as good as Snake with a weapon, being a Bounty Hunter. Wolf has greater resistance to damage with his thick leather body armor, and his laser pistol would to more damage to Snake than a bullet would to Wolf.

JOE! · Jun 22, 2009

Wolf has a bullet proof vest.

we need to decide on which weapons each gets

I think we'll do the typical 4-5 each like on the show.

Any experts on the games out there?

Sonic on the Rocks · Jun 22, 2009

I'll say one thing, if Snake gets hit with like...anything from Starfox Assault, he's going to die.
Demon Launchers are total overkill, they can one-shot an Arwing.

JOE! · Jun 22, 2009

which is why we are choosing weapons.

dont forget that many things from metal gear will kill wolf too

AwesomeObliterator · Jun 22, 2009

This http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmUXkPZNyYQ
and this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG7HGRyc1uo&feature=related

He beats that ninja later as well as a giant robot too.

payasofobia · Jun 22, 2009

I would say that Wolf has the advantage here, even though Snake has fought a lot of ugly things himself. I'll explain myself later, I'm going to write my explanation first.

payasofobia · Jun 22, 2009

Melee techniques:

Snake definetly has this ( but not by much). He knows one of the most advanced CQC techniques and he is very strong himself. Wolf has better physical atributes and a fighting style that overwhelms his opponents, but still, the thing that keeps Wolf from being equal to Snake is the fact that his fighting style is wild and unorganized (drawing inspiration from Brawl's moveset), making him easy to predict and counter with Snake's abilities.

Ranged weapons:

Wolf has this, definetly. He has everything Snake has (machine guns, pistols, sniper rifles, homing missile launcher etc) along with a bunch of futuristic weaponry that Snake cannot even begin to imagine and the Wolfen, that can be teleported where he is whenever he wants it to. Wolf definetly has the better arsenal.

Armor:

Wolf has the advantage here. Aside from his armor, he also has access to overshields and the like that greatly increase his defense. Depending on which Snake we are talking about, he either has light armor (MGS, MGS 4), no armor(MGS2) or military jackets(the early MG games).

Stamina:

It's a draw. Snake is a supersoldier( with inferior genes, but still...) that can take a few bullet wounds more than your average man, but still, not by much. Wolf is an alien that can be active for long periods of time without resting and that can take lots and LOTS of bullets and beams to the face without flinching or dying. Without armor. And when he can't take it anymore he faints. He only dies if it is a huge explosion what finishes him off.

Intellingence:

I would say that Snake has the absolute advantage here, but upon closer inspection the advantage wouldn't be that big. I mean, he is supposedly very smart, but he lacks common sense (A SURVEILLANCE CAMERA???) and is usually stupid on some situations. Also, his enemies are ******** ( INTRUDER ALERT, INTRUDER AL....HUH? NEVERMIND, IT'S JUST A BOX.). But still, I guess he has more experience and smarts than wolf.

Movement:

Wolf is definetly far more athletic than Snake. He is the most athletic out of the rest of the Star-fox characters, and gives everyone else a run for their money. Snake is either slightly slower than your average person when he carries all those items or above average when he is carrying none, so it is a lose-lose situation.

Skill:

According to the story, almost everyone who fought Snake was holding back on him because they wanted to destroy the patriots through a very complex masterplan that involved getting killed by snake. Snake never trully beat those ninjas and psychics. Also, ******** genome soldiers. Wolf, on the other hand, has fought against mercyless aliens bent on consuming the world at all cost both on his wolfen and on foot.

Special abilities:

Draw. Snake has stealth and a good number of items that increase this stealth factor. Wolf has a bunch of stuff that increase his armor and speed, aside from the fact that he has better senses because he is an animal.

Adaptability:

Snake has the advantage on places with lots of vegetation. Wolf has the advantage on open areas and both are good on closed areas....why? because there is less unpredictable places where snake can ambush Wolf, and Wolf is not as stupid as a genome soldier. It's a draw.

Overall, Wolf wins.

Snake is cool and all, but we are pitting a modern day (realistic) super-soldier with a super tough futuristic alien from outer space.

TDB: SEASON 2! LEON (RE4) vs LARA CROFT

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